13:43:14 RRSAgent has joined #wpay 13:43:14 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/12-wpay-irc 13:43:16 Zakim has joined #wpay 13:43:48 zakim, this will be wpay 13:43:48 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, manu 13:44:08 zakim, room for 10 for 90 minutes? 13:44:10 ok, manu; conference Team_(wpay)13:44Z scheduled with code 9729 (WPAY) for 90 minutes until 1514Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked 13:50:59 Karen has joined #wpay 13:59:34 slaory has joined #wpay 14:00:04 Team_(wpay)13:44Z has now started 14:00:11 +??P7 14:00:17 zakim, I am ??P7 14:00:17 +manu; got it 14:00:35 zakim, call Ian-Office 14:00:35 ok, Ian; the call is being made 14:00:36 +Ian 14:02:13 zakim, who's here? 14:02:13 On the phone I see manu, Ian 14:02:15 On IRC I see slaory, Karen, Zakim, RRSAgent, ShaneM, Ryladog, dlehn, trackbot, manu, Ian 14:02:29 +[IPcaller] 14:03:21 Kepeng_Alibaba has joined #wpay 14:03:28 zakim, [IPcaller] is Kepeng_Alibaba 14:03:29 +Kepeng_Alibaba; got it 14:04:17 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/use-cases/index.html 14:04:56 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments-ig/2015Mar/0064.html 14:05:45 [IJ notes for the call: DSR items, privacy considerations, exception considerations] 14:06:43 zakim, code? 14:06:43 the conference code is 9729 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), manu 14:07:04 +ShaneM 14:07:52 q+ 14:08:23 Manu: Any changes to agenda today? 14:08:47 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/use-cases/index.html 14:08:47 Ian: I'm most interested in the structure - have some structural points / questions. 14:08:52 Topic: Use Cases Rework 14:08:58 scribe: manu 14:09:13 +1 to short labels for (micro) use cases 14:09:14 Ian: There are a couple of things that are good... +1 to short labels for micro use cases 14:09:45 http://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-iPhone-crowdfunding-apps-that-allow-payments-directly-through-the-mobile-device 14:10:28 ian: Industry folks tend to throw around short labels quite a bit - especially in these cases, slightly higher level - short phrase that speaks to industry doesn't get in way of easy understanding. 14:10:31 Ian: I like that. 14:10:40 Ian: I think the green and the red is distracting. 14:10:55 Ian: Minor comment, but maybe we can find some other way to format some metadata. 14:11:39 Ian: There were times when Dave mentioned exception situations - when a payment fails and coupon needs to be re-instated. Thinking about those and putting them in use cases at that high level seems like an annotation about an exception situation. 14:12:04 Ian: Other topic that's come up has been privacy considerations - remember that you don't want to send your Social Security Number over to a merchant, for example. 14:12:11 Ian: Not sure what "Justification" is yet? 14:12:38 Manu: Agree green/red is distracting. Red is editorial (to be stripped out). 14:12:47 ...the Justification bit is to explain why it's different than another use cases 14:12:52 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/use-cases/index.html#discovery-of-offer 14:13:39 IJ: Justification is why we have the use case at all 14:14:02 ...but it's there for the editors. 14:14:58 Ian: Ok, we may want arbitrary notes - why this is important... which is slightly different than editorial notes. 14:15:27 Ian: If a lot of them have the same justification, we could have a section that's assumptions - why did we include these use cases overall? 14:15:34 Ian: For example, help ensure ubiquity, etc. 14:16:01 IJ: Maybe they don't have common justifications (so does not make sense to factor out) 14:16:54 Ian: Let's read through a few of them... (reads through Website-based offer) 14:17:30 Ian: Themes - automation is important - need unifying architecture given diversity of devices, applies to automotive, point of sale, etc. 14:17:59 Ian: So, there might be able to pull out the justifications - we might be able to figure out if it contributes anything to certain topics. 14:18:36 Ian: Automation, legal obligations, security, etc. These are clearly perceived needs... 14:18:49 Manu: What you did in your doc.... 14:18:58 manu: here - http://www.w3.org/2015/03/wpay-usecases.html 14:19:05 ...you did break it into categories 14:19:27 q+ 14:19:41 ack Ian 14:20:04 Ian: The justification you have, I like the idea that we say 'how did any use case get into this document to begin with?'? 14:20:19 https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/ExecSummary#Goals 14:20:22 do they improve usability? 14:20:24 security? 14:20:26 Ian: If the group could see the broad things we wanted to address - tying them into the goals - do they improve usability? 14:20:27 porttability? 14:21:01 Ian: We believe these are "in pursuit of these goals"... here's the goal it helps us pursue. 14:21:25 Ian: So now everyone in the group knows why it made it in here - it's in pursuit of some goal, otherwise it shouldn't be in here. 14:21:30 q+ to mention Motivations. 14:21:56 Ian: We should attempt to do that - that would simplify the document by making it short labels... that's different from editorial notes, like "is this a duplicate?" 14:22:29 Ian: Categories that I had in my document were intended to group things slightly differently - avoid duplication of use cases - putting them next to each other, when they differ by a tiny amount, I had a common label for them. 14:23:01 Manu: One thing I found moving them into the use cases, I could find a slightly different justification for each use case 14:23:42 ...there was a use case where hold/pre-auth was so close that I think we can put them into one use case 14:25:23 Ian: You have a number of things under "Discovery of Offer" - if we say what goal it helps us pursue - that might be useful... having everything flow from a small number of goals would be nice... so having an annotation wrt. about what the group likes about this model. For example, the purchase price of the train in the first example of $15 might be important because the price. 14:26:04 TEMPLATE 14:26:07 - short label 14:26:17 - the short story 14:26:23 - annotations: 14:26:37 zakim, must shame 14:26:37 I don't understand 'must shame', Ian 14:26:44 zakim, mute shanem 14:26:44 ShaneM should now be muted 14:26:49 - priority 14:26:52 - motivation 14:26:57 - security / privacy considerations 14:27:06 - exceptions 14:27:52 Manu: So, if we add each one of those subtopics for each micro use case - we don't have micro-use cases anymore. 14:27:56 - which goals do they help use pursue 14:28:26 Ian: Without trying to be fancy - possible to have one view that's just the simple statements w/o anything else - another one that's the fully annotated one - push the button to do the annotation. 14:28:33 sorry my mute button stopped working! 14:28:45 IJ: Can we expand good bits? 14:28:47 Manu: We can built that but we don't get it for free 14:29:18 Ian: I have the feeling that a designer could make this still readable... 14:29:41 Ian: The sentence could be big - if it was airy to read - might not be too painful. 14:30:49 q+ 14:30:52 ack manu 14:30:52 manu, you wanted to mention Motivations. 14:30:53 q- 14:31:07 Manu: We could put security/privacy, and exceptions in their own sections 14:31:11 ack Ian 14:31:33 Ian: Yes and no - Dave's comment was - I want to pay with a voucher - please note that if a payment fails, I get my voucher back. 14:32:16 Ian: On another hand, there are probably general statements that can be made. For example - transactions can stop at any time, so in those cases, what do we need to keep in mind when that happens? 14:32:26 Ian: It could be that exceptions merit it's own document section. 14:32:58 Ian: For security/privacy - it's sort of the same - we want to make sure that when we get to the architecture that we're able to send data to only the parties that need it. 14:33:27 Ian: For example, data sent to merchant is only to be shared w/ the merchant - that seems like a useful/general statement. However, there could be, in a specific use case, it could be that we want to call out something. 14:34:07 Manu: I'll try a few things and you can try a few things - maybe we can come up with a workable template. 14:34:21 PROPOSED: 14:34:34 * REQUIRED: 14:34:36 - short label 14:34:40 - micro statement 14:34:48 - goals 14:35:01 * OPTIONAL 14:35:10 - motivation 14:35:17 Manu: Let's make motivation mandatory. 14:35:18 IJ: Ok 14:35:25 * OPTIONAL 14:35:30 - security/privacy considerations 14:35:34 - exception considerations 14:36:00 Ian: Does this flow make sense to you? 14:36:08 Kepeng_Alibaba: Yes. 14:36:17 zakim, unmute me 14:36:17 ShaneM should no longer be muted 14:36:23 http://www.w3.org/2015/03/wpay-usecases.html 14:36:41 Ian: I put in a bunch of use cases in this document if I could make them fit - tried to draw on slide decks, use cases, dave's comments. 14:36:57 Ian: On the one hand I don't feel strongly about which ones make it in - curious about yoru plan to bring them in. 14:37:13 q + 14:37:47 Kepeng_Alibaba: One question - as part of the payment method - because we have Alipay, largest payment method in China, but it's not mentioned in use cases document. 14:38:06 Manu: Yes, we should mention it somewhere. 14:38:21 q+ 14:38:36 Manu: We need to understand the Alipay flow to figure out how to include it. 14:38:46 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/use-cases/index.html#the-payment-phases-applied-to-the-real-world 14:39:37 Initiation of Processing. Depending on the payment instrument, the payer (e.g., when using PayPal), the payee (e.g., when using a credit card), or other party (e.g., bank) initiates processing. 14:39:37 Ian: Where we mention PayPal or Google Wallet - we could also mention Alipay. 14:40:27 Ian: Let's put PayPal, Google Wallett, Alipay, Apple Pay 14:40:35 s/Wallett/Wallet 14:41:12 IJ: We should also list Ripple or other cryptocurrencies where we mention Bitcoin...same idea 14:41:29 Manu: Alipay does a lot more than PayPal. 14:41:38 ..you can do a lot more like linking to bank accounts 14:41:45 ...you can pay credit card bills, etc. 14:41:58 ...there are many things that Alipay does...clearly we need to mention it 14:42:09 ...we also need to break out the components of ALipay since there's not just one thing that it does 14:42:21 ...it does 3-corner model, 4-corner model 14:42:39 ...so we should mention Alipay but do so in a way that is specific to the particular function one can achieve through Alipay 14:43:20 Ian: My little bit of guidance would be - where it's a useful example - look for other examples in the document and we can add Alipay alongside other instruments. 14:43:52 Ian: Where we have payment instruments known to other large markets - MPesa - we should mention the relevant ones - we need to help international audience understand that this is a global standard. 14:44:14 Ian: You may be thinking of other things in Asia that are important to mention. 14:44:38 Manu: We don't have anything about Chinese market escrow payments...those are different from many payment scenarios in US or Europe 14:44:47 ...so it would be great to have that covered in the document 14:45:16 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/use-cases/index.html#the-payment-phases-applied-to-the-real-world 14:45:36 Ian: We have these phases of payments and we're trying to come up with some narratives that illustrate the different phases in practice. 14:45:45 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/use-cases/index.html#a-basic-example-of-the-payment-phases 14:46:08 Ian: In that example, she uses a credit card - we don't want readers to understand that we're not using just one type of payment. 14:46:24 Ian: We need additional narratives to show how phases of payment work in those scenarios. 14:46:54 Ian: For example - here's a common scenario in China - section 3 describes phases and steps... then you write a story on "how" - using Alipay, using the steps. 14:47:58 Manu: +1 to having material in the document to emphasize it is international...with examples from different countries. 14:48:06 ...including China, US, and Europe at least 14:49:17 Ian: Happy to read and send in review comments. 14:49:38 IJ: I will read it 14:49:47 q+ 14:49:55 ack Ian 14:50:02 Ian: One other thing - sounds like we're converging. 14:50:33 Ian: Labels for alternative use cases... - Freemium offer, email offer, motiviation will help us explain why there are two use cases - but what's gone is any categorization of things. 14:50:57 Ian: What's useful about my subheadings - manual selection, assisted selection, that broke them up into smaller groups - conceptually easier to grasp. 14:51:18 Ian: When I didn't have good subsections, I put "general" - variation in delay - added a little bit of explanation. 14:51:32 Manu: I thought the categorization of related points was useful, but I have a concern 14:51:42 ...we can only have so many headings :) 14:52:45 ...maybe the time to make the decision is once we have them all in the doc 14:53:31 ...category headings with only one thing takes up space 14:53:41 Ian: Yes, understand all that. 14:54:14 Ian: All problems can be solved with an additional layer of abstraction. :) 14:55:24 Ian: Maybe we could do a bottom-up one instead? One-time vs. Recurring payments.... 14:56:14 Ian: What I found useful in adding the headers was to help see that there is a theme emerging. This was intended to touch on a variation of that theme. 14:56:25 Ian: That let me see that we covered all the variations on that theme. 14:56:39 Present: KePeng, Ian, Manu, Shane 14:57:27 Ian: I found it useful to see if we're repeating ourselves. If there was a bit that was a theme - "Frequency" could be used. Or in "Motivation" add a bit that says "relates to use case XYZ" 14:57:47 Ian: Could be part of motiviation, making that a little longer - it might be fine to include there. 14:57:52 +1 to trying some ideas 14:58:11 Manu: So to get to FPWD: 14:58:17 - We need use cases for section 5 14:58:25 - We need to experiment with the template 14:58:31 - We need some real-world stories in section 6 14:58:47 ...bitcoin, and an alipay scenario would be great 14:59:41 Ian: That sounds good to me - a lot of work from from you has gone into listening. I'm not hearing objections to the direction - so let's keep going and get it in front of the group. 15:00:00 q+ 15:00:18 ack manu 15:00:53 Manu: Alibaba had a comment about not mentioning biometrics/2-factor...we need to get it in there 15:01:01 ...DSR has suggestions about exceptions to get in there 15:01:09 ...next big challenge will be to get review in a timely fashion 15:01:27 q+ to talk about agenda 15:01:42 Ian: I'll read it and focus on look and feel - happy if you are taking the lead on the actual use cases. 15:02:01 Ian: ... and watching people's emails go by suggesting use cases... that division of labor works works well for me. 15:02:05 ack ShaneM 15:02:05 ShaneM, you wanted to talk about agenda 15:02:23 ack Shane 15:02:50 -ShaneM 15:03:04 -manu 15:03:08 rrsagent, make minutes 15:03:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/12-wpay-minutes.html Ian 15:03:09 ShaneM: In the meeting announcement - it said this meeting is 90 minutes, you may want to fix that 15:03:12 -Kepeng_Alibaba 15:03:15 rrsagent, set log member 15:03:47 Meeting: Web Payments IG Use Cases Task Force 15:03:47 Chair: Manu 15:04:38 rrsagent, make minutes 15:04:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/12-wpay-minutes.html manu 15:04:45 rrsagent, make logs public 15:04:54 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:04:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/12-wpay-minutes.html manu 15:19:00 disconnecting the lone participant, Ian, in Team_(wpay)13:44Z 15:19:01 Team_(wpay)13:44Z has ended 15:19:01 Attendees were manu, Ian, Kepeng_Alibaba, ShaneM 16:49:21 dsr has joined #wpay 16:50:44 Hi DSR. 16:50:48 It moved to 10am ET 16:50:52 (weekly) 16:51:18 Oh, I forgot that and need to update my calendar, thx 17:29:22 Zakim has left #wpay 17:56:41 chaals has joined #wpay 19:33:23 Karen has joined #wpay 20:00:10 Karen has joined #wpay 20:53:07 Karen has joined #wpay