16:58:27 RRSAgent has joined #wpay
16:58:27 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-wpay-irc
16:58:51 https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/ExecSummary
16:58:59 dsr has joined #wpay
17:02:24 zakim, who's here?
17:02:24 On the phone I see manu, Ian
17:02:26 On IRC I see dsr, RRSAgent, Zakim, trackbot, manu, Karen, Erik, Ian, dlehn
17:03:08 yes
17:03:19 happening right now...
17:03:39 +dezell
17:03:53 +Dsr
17:04:51 agenda+ Timing
17:05:30 scribe: Ian
17:05:31 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments-ig/2015Mar/0001.html
17:05:58 scribe: Dave
17:06:02 scribenick: dsr
17:06:11 Manu sets out the agenda
17:06:52 Ian suggests payment flow conversation take place on Monday’s call with Evert
17:07:15 … re Evert’s diagram, the glossary and so forth
17:07:45 Manu: let’s talk a bit today if we get to it
17:07:54 agenda?
17:07:57 Topic: Timing of Calls
17:07:59 agenda+ doc relationships
17:08:17 Manu: Alibaba has requested to move the call earlier. We could move it to 10am ET on Thursdays
17:08:20 Manu: Alibaba has propsed we bring the call forward by 2 hours.
17:08:41 Any thoughts on these 2 options?
17:09:12 IJ: Simpler to have 1 time; I don't have experience with alternating times
17:09:26 DSR: We are trying alternating times in the web of things IG.
17:09:30 ...rather, we have two calls
17:09:50 Ian: I don’t have any experiece with alternating timeslots, but suggest a fixed time is less confusing
17:10:32 Dave: WoT IG alternates between 9am and 6pm UTC but this isn’t good when you want to have people from America and Asia in the same call.
17:11:02 David: I think Alibaba wants the call to start before midnight their time.
17:11:58 Laurent_ has joined #wpay
17:12:23 David: I think that Alibaba may be more interested in the use cases work than the main call, given their email input on use cases in particular.
17:13:04 Manu: let’s try 10am ET on Thursday and see if that makes them happier
17:13:21 +Laurent_
17:13:35 Ian: shall I update the page to reflect that?
17:13:38 Manu: yes
17:14:14 Present: Ian, David, Manu, Laurent
17:15:10 Dave: we may want to check what the timezone will be for Alibaba given that the US changes on Sunday.
17:16:29 RESOLUTION: Weekly use cases call now 10:00am ET on Thursdays.
17:16:58 topic: Docs!
17:17:16 https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Communications_Strategy_Task_Force/Doc_Relations
17:17:19 rrsagent, make minutes
17:17:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-wpay-minutes.html manu
17:17:20 rrsagent, make logs public
17:17:23 rrsagent, make minutes
17:17:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-wpay-minutes.html manu
17:18:16 Ian presents his list of things we should do in respect to the use cases work
17:18:50 https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Communications_Strategy_Task_Force/Doc_Relations
17:19:30 Ian: we’re working on an executive summary to communicate this. It doesn’t mention the deliverables though.
17:20:07 I hope it provides a better structure for the way we describe the use cases.
17:21:12 Manu: I feel that if we produce several documents it could get confusing. I would prefer to have the architecture and requirements in the same document.
17:21:22 q+ to raise a question on the single narrative
17:21:32 Please note that these are called out as separate deliverables, but how we implement them (e.g., one or multiple documents) has not been established.
17:22:11 http://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp-ucr/
17:22:13 Ian: conceptually these are different pieces but they could go in the same document.
17:22:18 http://www.w3.org/TR/powerful-features/
17:22:42 http://www.w3.org/TR/media-accessibility-reqs/
17:22:46 Ian cites an example of a requirements document with use cases included, although not called out.
17:22:56 http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery-30-requirements/
17:23:24 The Xquery requirements document omits use cases. I would like to discuss the rationale for the choices before us.
17:24:14 ack Laurent_
17:24:14 Laurent_, you wanted to raise a question on the single narrative
17:24:15 I think we could shrink the current use cases document considerably. I am playing around to see what feels practical and will then provide my advice to the IG
17:24:41 q+
17:24:45 Laurent: just wanted to check with Ian the purpose of the single narrative approach
17:24:47 Payment Narrative
17:24:52 ---
17:24:52 Description: To help illustrate the (somewhat abstract) steps of a typical transaction, it is useful to have a single narrative that covers all of the steps at a high enough level to be understandable by a very general audience. Once the reader has a solid grasp of the steps of a payment, it will be easier to understand how the use cases have been organized. Note: It may be useful to create a number of these "complete narratives" for different scenarios.
17:24:53 ---
17:24:59 q+ to mention that we're going to talk about Payment Narrative in the next topic
17:25:39 ack manu
17:25:39 manu, you wanted to mention that we're going to talk about Payment Narrative in the next topic
17:25:43 Laurent: a single narrative is what I would call a use case. I want us to avoid the impression that we are enabling a level playing field.
17:26:09 Manu: I agree that we need to talk about that, and will do so in the next agendum.
17:26:39 https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Communications_Strategy_Task_Force/Doc_Relations
17:26:40 s/avoid/ensure/
17:26:58 s/ensure/give/
17:27:43 Laurent: as a small detail for the reqs doc, it would be useful to keep the scope out of it
17:28:28 Ian: whatever we have in phase 1, we have use cases for the focus for that phase
17:29:03 q+ to say that we need a "slide deck" on here for messaging.
17:29:07 We will have a different kind of scope for the technical work
17:29:53 Dave notes that explanatory text for use cases could cover a range of alternative payment instruments
17:30:58 Ian: W3M would love us if we can come up with several WG charters later this year.
17:31:29 David: my phone is dying, I will send some feedback to Ian later today
17:31:50 -dezell
17:31:53 q?
17:31:57 ack manu
17:31:57 manu, you wanted to say that we need a "slide deck" on here for messaging.
17:32:27 Manu: I think we’re missing a standard set of slides with talking points we can show at public events etc.
17:32:38 https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Communications_Strategy_Task_Force
17:33:29 Ian: yes. There are things officially produced by the IG versus supporting materials produced by IG members.
17:33:53 … I would like a slide deck that is IG approved.
17:34:20 Manu: I would like some core material that we individually can include in our presentations
17:35:15 Ian: I will make a note to track the idea and think about it some more
17:35:56 Ian: on Monday we can ask if the approach works for people and discuss the split across documents
17:36:56 We will also need to identify the editor for the document(s)
17:37:26 Manu: anything else on the comms strategy? Sounds good to us so far
17:37:34 Topic: Single Narrative for Web Payments Use Cases
17:37:37 http://www.w3.org/2015/02/wpay-sample.html
17:37:38 http://www.w3.org/2015/02/wpay-sample.html
17:39:07 Ian: I had 2 thoughts. Do the steps make sense as described. This is not intended to cover everything the IG wants to address
17:39:53 … the idea is to use one use case narrative and apply it to explain the payment flow.
17:40:00 q+
17:40:22 q+ to mention that we need to ground the 'phases' with something.
17:40:31 Laurent: concerned that it gives too much emphasis to one payment method and could bias people reading it
17:40:38 q+
17:40:44 ack Ian
17:41:03 +1 to second narrative
17:41:06 Ian: I think we could address your concern by giving a 2nd narrative.
17:41:09 +1 to Laurent creating second 1 :))
17:41:13 Laurent: yes for a non card payment
17:41:15 q?
17:41:19 ack manu
17:41:19 manu, you wanted to mention that we need to ground the 'phases' with something.
17:41:36 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/use-cases/index.html#introduction
17:41:36 Manu: I am a bit concerned about given all these examples of flows.
17:42:00 s/given/giving/
17:42:28 What’s missing is a high level account of how everything fits together
17:42:30 q+ to say I was imagining separate doc
17:43:19 It isn’t a comprehensive account, but rather an introduction. We can then get into more detais with the micro use cases.
17:43:47 [IJ also sees that Manu's integrated approach could work]
17:43:51 If we can get 3 or 4 alternatives that should show the flexibility
17:45:00 Manu: I think we only need the high level account for a single narrative, is that good for you Laurent?
17:45:11 q+ to add that having multiple narratives makes more sense to me in a separate doc...but see one as better in same doc as use cases
17:45:16 Laurent: if you cover 2 or 3 narratives it would work better
17:45:42 I definitely like the full range with the micro use case approach
17:45:44 Laurent: +1 to micro use cases to cover the scenarios; 2-3 full narratives as examples
17:45:51 ack me
17:46:16 dsr: The email I sent with high-level single perspective narratives...that could be a single document
17:46:25 dsr: The email I sent w/ high-level perspectives/narratives - that could be one document targeted at people that want to ignore the details.
17:46:27 ....the kind of explanation you want to do in a second doc, that focuses on a separate audience
17:46:28 q+ to react on Dave's mail
17:47:31 ack Ian
17:47:31 Ian, you wanted to say I was imagining separate doc and to add that having multiple narratives makes more sense to me in a separate doc...but see one as better in same doc as use
17:47:35 ... cases
17:47:41 Ian: if we have an extended narrative just before the micro use cases, this would work.
17:48:26 If we did 3 then I would prefer to have the full set later, e.g. in an appendix
17:49:10 Ian: I would like to have a look at Dave’s email again.
17:49:35 ack Laurent_
17:49:35 Laurent_, you wanted to react on Dave's mail
17:49:36 I like to keep things short and simple to understand
17:50:22 q+ to mention that people will skip over the links.
17:50:29 q+
17:50:29 Laurent: why not write 2 or 3 use case narratives in more detail and point to them as a separate document
17:51:24 Laurent: I like user centric narratives, that is important for W3C for using facing narratives.
17:51:51 some of dave’s narratives are too far from the IG’s focus.
17:51:51 ack me
17:51:51 manu, you wanted to mention that people will skip over the links.
17:52:30 Manu: Risk of multiple pages is that people will miss them.
17:52:36 Manu: I worry that people may not follow the links
17:53:31 It is less of a risk if we have a single document. We could use the first working draft as an experiment and see how people react
17:53:49 +1 on iterating
17:53:56 … and the use the comments to improve the structure for the next draft
17:54:00 +1 always on iterating :0
17:54:43 ack Ian
17:54:49 Manu: I prefer to have a single extended narrative followed by the micro use cases
17:55:14 Ian: everbody loves iteration so no complaints from me on that
17:56:19 I think we can rely on appendices for details, but want to ensure that readers understand what we are trying to convey
17:56:38 +1 on one main narrative + other ones in annexes / end of document
17:56:54 +1 I could live with that - other narratives in appendices
17:58:03 q+
17:58:15 Ian: my other comment is about Laurent’s convergence point. The IG is chartered to support convergence between web and payment terms in brick & mortar stores. Is this something we do from the start or get to later?
17:58:25 ack Laurent_
17:59:07 Laurent: we need to reach agreement on scope. Right now I think our scope is too broad
17:59:11 this risks slow progress
17:59:38 Manu: agree that we want to not take on too many work items.
17:59:54 I want to reach an agreement on immediate next steps.
17:59:57 +1 to micro use cases, narrative, and micro-narratives
18:00:08 a. move narratives into the use cases document
18:01:11 (Notes: IJ's narrative is incomplete. Dave's might be split between micro-use cases and micro-narratives; need to see)
18:01:15 PROPOSAL: Integrate Ian and Dave Ragget's basic narrative into use cases document, integrate examples of micro-usecase alternatives into use cases document, and integrate alternate narratives into an appendix in the use cases document.
18:01:30 q+
18:01:31 s/Ragget/Raggett/
18:02:15 ack Laurent_
18:02:30 Ian: I really like making the use cases simpler and easier to explain to people outside of the IG
18:03:02 Manu and Laurent check their understanding of terms for micro use cases
18:04:23 Dave notes the current document is very hard to follow
18:05:06 -manu
18:05:35 rrsagent, make minutes
18:05:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-wpay-minutes.html dsr
18:06:25 -Laurent_
18:06:50 s/:O/:)/
18:07:21 ACTION: Manu to integrate Ian and Dave Ragget's basic narrative into use cases document, integrate examples of micro-usecase alternatives into use cases document, and integrate alternate narratives into an appendix in the use cases document.
18:07:21 Created ACTION-76 - Integrate ian and dave ragget's basic narrative into use cases document, integrate examples of micro-usecase alternatives into use cases document, and integrate alternate narratives into an appendix in the use cases document. [on Manu Sporny - due 2015-03-12].
18:07:22 -Dsr
18:07:50 rrsagent, make minutes
18:07:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-wpay-minutes.html dsr
18:08:33 ok
18:09:29 Meeting: Web Payments IG Use Cases Task Force
18:09:58 s/Docs!/Web Payments IG Deliverables/
18:10:05 s/yes//
18:10:22 s/happening right now...//
18:10:40 rrsagent, draft minutes
18:10:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-wpay-minutes.html manu
18:11:05 if you can that would be nice :-)
18:12:22 disconnecting the lone participant, Ian, in T&S_WEBPYMT(WPAY_USE)12:00PM
18:12:25 T&S_WEBPYMT(WPAY_USE)12:00PM has ended
18:12:25 Attendees were manu, Ian, dezell, Dsr, Laurent_