18:59:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
18:59:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/26-shapes-irc
18:59:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
18:59:19 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #shapes
18:59:21 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SHAPES
18:59:21 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
18:59:22 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
18:59:22 <trackbot> Date: 26 February 2015
18:59:32 <Labra> Labra has joined #shapes
18:59:44 <Zakim> DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM has now started
18:59:50 <Zakim> +??P2
19:00:02 <SimonSteyskal> zakim, ??P2 is me
19:00:02 <Zakim> +SimonSteyskal; got it
19:00:57 <SimonSteyskal> zakim, who's on the phone?
19:00:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see SimonSteyskal
19:01:10 <Zakim> +Arnaud
19:01:18 <Zakim> + +1.510.435.aaaa
19:01:28 <Zakim> +Charles
19:01:41 <Dimitris> Dimitris has joined #shapes
19:01:47 <kcoyle> Zakim, aaaa is me
19:01:47 <Zakim> +kcoyle; got it
19:02:07 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
19:02:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see SimonSteyskal, Arnaud, kcoyle, Charles
19:02:32 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
19:02:44 <cygri> cygri has joined #shapes
19:02:44 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
19:02:45 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
19:02:46 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
19:02:46 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
19:02:55 <cygri> zakim, code?
19:02:55 <Zakim> the conference code is 742737 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), cygri
19:03:07 <Arnaud> zakim, charles is temporarily hknublau
19:03:07 <Zakim> +hknublau; got it
19:03:23 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
19:03:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see SimonSteyskal, Arnaud, kcoyle, hknublau, TallTed (muted)
19:03:26 <Arnaud> chair: Arnaud
19:03:33 <Arnaud> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2015.02.26
19:03:45 <Zakim> +??P8
19:03:48 <cygri> zakim, ??P8 is me
19:03:48 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
19:03:53 <cygri> zakim, mute me
19:03:53 <Zakim> cygri should now be muted
19:04:16 <Zakim> +Charles
19:04:35 <Arnaud> zakim, charles is labra
19:04:35 <Zakim> +labra; got it
19:04:45 <Arnaud> zakmi, who's on the phone?
19:04:56 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
19:04:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see SimonSteyskal, Arnaud, kcoyle, hknublau, TallTed (muted), cygri (muted), labra
19:05:16 <Arnaud> regrets: pfps, ericp, arthurryman
19:05:16 <Zakim> +labra.a
19:05:43 <Arnaud> zakim, labra.a is temporarily Dimitris
19:05:43 <Zakim> +Dimitris; got it
19:05:54 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
19:05:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see SimonSteyskal, Arnaud, kcoyle, hknublau, TallTed (muted), cygri (muted), labra, Dimitris
19:06:11 <Arnaud> zakim, [IPCaller] is  [IPCaller]
19:06:11 <Zakim> sorry, Arnaud, I do not recognize a party named '[IPCaller]'
19:06:15 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me
19:06:15 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted
19:06:29 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
19:06:29 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
19:06:44 <hknublau> topic: Admin
19:07:14 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 12 February Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-shapes-minutes.html
19:07:22 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of the 12 February Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-shapes-minutes.html
19:07:55 <hknublau> Arnaud: minutes of the meeting are updated, please review
19:08:13 <cygri> Ah, back to 2002
19:08:20 <hknublau> ... we still use basic perl script
19:09:24 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 30 and 31 of October 2014 F2F: http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-shapes-minutes.html http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-shapes-minutes.html
19:09:25 <hknublau> ... Minutes from first F2F were not approved yet, due to tooling issues
19:09:45 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of the 30 and 31 of October 2014 F2F: http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-shapes-minutes.html http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-shapes-minutes.html
19:10:26 <hknublau> Topic: Tracking of actions and issues
19:10:27 <cygri> zakim, unmute me
19:10:27 <Zakim> cygri should no longer be muted
19:10:41 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/actions/pendingreview
19:11:49 <hknublau> cygri: Action-10 is done, I suggest we use revised version, David did not respond
19:12:32 <hknublau> Arnaud: Please update wiki accordingly
19:12:54 <hknublau> ... Action-10 closed
19:13:57 <hknublau> ... We should wait for another week regarding the next F2F meeting location
19:14:26 <cygri> zakim, mute me
19:14:26 <Zakim> cygri should now be muted
19:14:28 <hknublau> ... Action-13 closed
19:14:53 <hknublau> ... Action-14 closed
19:15:40 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/21
19:16:43 <hknublau> ... not sure if ISSUE-21 is critical to the WG
19:17:27 <hknublau> ... Eric confirmed that ShEx is work in progress
19:17:43 <Labra> +q
19:18:02 <Arnaud> ack Labra
19:18:39 <hknublau> Labra: It is clear that ShEx is evolving, members are in the WG, concentrating on SHACL
19:19:23 <hknublau> ... e.g. closed shapes discussion potentially relevant to SHACL
19:20:06 <hknublau> Arnaud: Emails have covered this topic, but I don't want to close ticket without Peter's approval
19:20:56 <hknublau> Topic: SHACL spec update
19:21:31 <hknublau> Arnaud: Rush in getting first PWD out
19:22:22 <Arnaud> https://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/data-shapes-core/
19:23:12 <hknublau> Arnaud: May be a good start for FPWD
19:23:26 <hknublau> Holger: I invite a first round of feedback
19:25:21 <Labra> +q
19:25:53 <SimonSteyskal> ... chapter 2 seems detached and should maybe be moved to a sperate document
19:26:02 <SimonSteyskal> s/sperate/seperate
19:26:25 <Arnaud> ack Labra
19:27:03 <hknublau> Jose: Surprised that my spec made it into a chapter of the spec
19:27:36 <hknublau> ... would prefer to separate core language from SPARQL etc
19:29:16 <hknublau> Arnaud: I would expect Jose's section to go into an annex
19:29:21 <hknublau> +q
19:29:46 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
19:30:25 <ericP> my intention was to include various ways to define shacl in the semantics section with switches so the community could compare and provide feedback
19:30:41 <ericP> a la the owl primer
19:30:46 <Labra> +q
19:30:54 <Arnaud> ack labra
19:31:09 <ericP> we wouldn't necessarily have to carry that all the way through to REC but it would be a good way to solicit feedback
19:31:14 <hknublau> Holger: Layering is wrong, need to define core as a subset of full language
19:31:51 <hknublau> Labra: Need clear first section for "core language", then SPARQL mapping
19:32:19 <Labra> +q
19:32:22 <hknublau> Arnaud: Suggest to move this out of FPWD, risk being incomplete and premature
19:32:29 <Arnaud> ack Labra
19:32:37 <ericP> i started with Jose's semantics 'cause he'd already HTML-ized them nicely
19:32:51 <ericP> we could add SPARQL and others as well
19:33:09 <cygri> q+
19:33:10 <hknublau> Labra: SPARQL needs to be moved out
19:33:28 <hknublau> ... want to keep it in
19:33:28 <Arnaud> ack cygri
19:33:58 <Labra> +q
19:34:00 <hknublau> cygri: F2F resolved that a normative mapping to SPARQL is needed
19:34:25 <hknublau> ... various proposals for formalizing the semantics are being written
19:34:37 <hknublau> ... it's premature to include any of them until this is resolved
19:34:52 <hknublau> .. agree with Arnaud that Section 2 should be moved out for now
19:34:58 <cygri> zakim, mute me
19:34:58 <Zakim> cygri should now be muted
19:35:38 <Labra> if we exclude the semantics we should at least add a section about the abstract syntax
19:35:56 <hknublau> Arnaud: Delay decision until next week.
19:35:56 <Labra> and put all the sparql to a one separate section about mappings to sparql
19:36:26 <hknublau> +q
19:36:41 <cygri> Labra, the resolution was: “Define semantics using SPARQL as much as possible”
19:36:42 <hknublau> Jose: SPARQL should go into one section
19:36:51 <ericP> btw, i think the primer is good enough for FPWD
19:36:57 <Arnaud> ack Labra
19:37:01 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
19:38:03 <Arnaud> ericp: you have a link to the latest primer?
19:38:11 <Labra> +q
19:39:19 <ericP> -> http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/data-shapes-primer/no-class-templates latest primer
19:39:39 <ericP> (that i know of -- open world, you know)
19:40:19 <ericP> getting the abstract syntax out made, i think, the beginning pallatable to a primer audience
19:41:13 <Labra> I disagree with having templates in the FPWD
19:41:15 <Arnaud> ack Labra
19:42:09 <cygri> Labra, isn’t that an approved requirement?
19:42:18 <Labra> not
19:42:20 <hknublau> Yes, macros have been approved.
19:42:32 <cygri> Labra, https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Requirements#Constraint_Macros
19:42:33 <Labra> but macros are not "sparql" templates
19:42:48 <ericP> that one needs a SPARQL/SPIN engine to impl shacl? i don't think that's approved
19:42:50 <hknublau> Arnaud: Macros could go into a different document
19:42:51 <Labra> you can define macros with some other construct
19:43:14 <hknublau> Eric, nobody said that
19:43:37 <cygri> Labra objects to templates, not to SPARQL
19:43:45 <Arnaud> primer:  http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/data-shapes-primer/no-class-templates
19:43:47 <cygri> (or maybe to both)
19:44:03 <Labra> yes...I object to templates with sparql embedded
19:44:12 <hknublau> Arnaud: Review to see how much is missing for FPWD soon
19:44:13 <SimonSteyskal> +q
19:44:19 <Labra> but I don't object to mappings to sparql
19:44:20 <Arnaud> ack SimonSteyskal
19:44:22 <hknublau> Topic: UCR document
19:44:27 <ericP> i'm still not clear one what one needs to impl shacl. does one need teh templates?
19:45:03 <Labra> the shacl core language should be implemented with or without a sparql engine
19:45:15 <hknublau> Eric, of course some sub-sets such as ShEx don't need to support the template mechanism. But that is a sub-set.
19:45:49 <hknublau> SimonSteyskal: Updated UCR for all resolutions
19:46:32 <hknublau> ... could we publish User Stories + Requirements for now (i.e. rename Use Cases to User Stories)
19:47:00 <hknublau> ... Separate user stories from more abstract use cases.
19:48:09 <hknublau> Arnaud: Editors should decide and have the freedom to reengineer document
19:48:34 <Labra> cygri...being able to compare shapes and having a higher level language
19:49:11 <hknublau> Eric, Labra, these requirements are coverd by the current draft.
19:50:39 <Labra> cygri, as an example the user story about publishing and describing linked data portals
19:51:17 <hknublau> Arnaud: no deadline, but sooner than later
19:51:33 <hknublau> Topic: Requirements
19:52:05 <cygri> Labra, I don’t see anything in there that wouldn’t work if SHACL is defined with a SPARQL-backed template library
19:52:06 <hknublau> Arnaud: not clear whether changes to wiki were made, doesn't look like.
19:52:39 <Arnaud>  PROPOSED: Approve requirement 2.11.7  https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Requirements#Separation_of_structural_from_complex_constraints
19:52:48 <kcoyle> +q
19:52:51 <cygri> zakim, unmute me
19:52:51 <Zakim> cygri should no longer be muted
19:52:57 <cygri> q+
19:53:03 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
19:53:50 <Arnaud> ack cygri
19:53:51 <hknublau> kcoyle: Need better definition of what a complex constraint is compared to structured
19:54:01 <TallTed> +1 kcoyle  clarity of what these things are that are being separated seems a necessity
19:54:27 <hknublau> cygri: What does the separation mean? In documents/spec?
19:54:45 <cygri> zakim, mute me
19:54:45 <Zakim> cygri should now be muted
19:54:46 <TallTed> q+
19:55:08 <TallTed> ack me
19:55:10 <Arnaud> ack TallTed
19:55:49 <cygri> TallTed’s explanation makes sense to me, but the requirement needs rephrasing to match his account
19:56:00 <hknublau> TallTed: Differentiator is that light-weight apps can use these high-level vocabularies without SPARQL processor
19:56:32 <cygri> q+
19:56:43 <hknublau> kcoyle: I like idea of levels, e.g. simpler primer
19:56:45 <Arnaud> ack cygri
19:57:02 <TallTed> s/Differentiator is that light-weight apps can use these high-level vocabularies without SPARQL processor/I think this is another way of saying "distinguish core from extension, complex, SPARQL, etc"/
19:57:16 <hknublau> cygri: Would like to work on re-wording of the Requirement.
19:57:17 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
19:57:17 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
19:57:19 <cygri> zakim, mute me
19:57:20 <Zakim> cygri should now be muted
19:57:26 <cygri> yrs
19:57:29 <cygri> yes
19:58:30 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to propose a rephrasing of Req 2.11.7
19:58:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Propose a rephrasing of req 2.11.7 [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2015-03-05].
19:59:51 <hknublau> Arnaud: Unapproved requirements, some have not enough votes yet
20:00:47 <Zakim> -kcoyle
20:00:49 <Zakim> -Dimitris
20:00:50 <Zakim> -TallTed
20:00:50 <Zakim> -hknublau
20:00:50 <Labra> bye
20:00:51 <Zakim> -SimonSteyskal
20:00:51 <Zakim> -cygri
20:00:52 <Zakim> -Arnaud
20:01:02 <Zakim> -labra
20:01:03 <Zakim> DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM has ended
20:01:03 <Zakim> Attendees were SimonSteyskal, Arnaud, +1.510.435.aaaa, kcoyle, TallTed, hknublau, cygri, labra, Dimitris
<Zakim> Present: SimonSteyskal, Arnaud, kcoyle, TallTed, hknublau, cygri, labra, Dimitris
20:03:56 <Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
20:03:56 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
20:03:56 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
20:04:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:04:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/26-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
20:04:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
20:04:05 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/26-shapes-actions.rdf :
20:04:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cygri to propose a rephrasing of Req 2.11.7 [1]
20:04:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/26-shapes-irc#T19-58-30