IRC log of aria-apg on 2015-02-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:55:49 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
17:55:49 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-irc
17:56:07 [LJWatson]
zakim, this will be 92473
17:56:07 [Zakim]
ok, LJWatson; I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
17:56:23 [LJWatson]
Meeting: ARIA APG teleconf
17:56:35 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
17:58:51 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has now started
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+ +1.512.459.aaaa
17:59:43 [annabbott]
annabbott has joined #aria-apg
18:00:23 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
18:00:48 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:01:21 [jamesn]
jamesn has joined #aria-apg
18:01:27 [Zakim]
+James_Nurthen
18:01:31 [Zakim]
+Matt_King
18:02:10 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:02:20 [Jemma]
Jemma has joined #aria-apg
18:02:34 [mattking]
mattking has joined #aria-apg
18:03:13 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make log world
18:03:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.217.244.aabb
18:03:22 [LJWatson]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
18:03:22 [Zakim]
+LJWatson; got it
18:03:24 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:03:35 [LJWatson]
zakim, who is on the phone?
18:03:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.512.459.aaaa, LJWatson, James_Nurthen, Matt_King, +1.217.244.aabb
18:03:37 [jamesn]
zakim, who is on the call?
18:03:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.512.459.aaaa, LJWatson, James_Nurthen, Matt_King, +1.217.244.aabb
18:03:42 [Zakim]
+??P6
18:03:43 [Jemma]
jemma
18:04:33 [annabbott]
zakim, aaaa is Ann Abbott
18:04:33 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'aaaa is Ann Abbott', annabbott
18:04:57 [Jemma]
+jemma
18:04:59 [annabbott]
zakim, aaaa is me
18:05:00 [Zakim]
+annabbott; got it
18:05:05 [Jemma]
aabb is me
18:05:08 [janina]
janina has joined #aria-apg
18:05:17 [janina]
zakim, who's on the phone?
18:05:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see annabbott, LJWatson, James_Nurthen, Matt_King, +1.217.244.aabb, ??P6
18:05:23 [jamesn]
zakim, aabb is Jemma
18:05:23 [Zakim]
+Jemma; got it
18:05:28 [janina]
zakim, ??P6 is me
18:05:28 [Zakim]
+janina; got it
18:07:00 [mattking]
agenda:
18:07:01 [mattking]
Continue walk-through of existing design patterns in current editor's draft. Please pre-read the
18:07:03 [mattking]
following if you have the opportunity to do so.
18:07:04 [mattking]
Agenda+ windowsplitter
18:07:06 [mattking]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#windowsplitte
18:07:07 [mattking]
Agenda+ Listbox
18:07:09 [mattking]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#Listbox
18:07:10 [mattking]
Agenda+ autocomplete
18:07:12 [mattking]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#autocomplete
18:08:19 [jongund]
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+Jon_Gunderson
18:08:49 [jongund]
sorry I am late
18:09:35 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
18:09:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see annabbott, LJWatson, James_Nurthen, Matt_King, Jemma, janina, Jon_Gunderson
18:09:37 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jongund, janina, mattking, Jemma, jamesn, annabbott, RRSAgent, Zakim, LJWatson, MichaelC, trackbot
18:09:52 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:09:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-minutes.html janina
18:10:23 [Zakim]
+ +1.919.607.aacc
18:10:40 [jamesn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#windowsplitter
18:10:43 [jongund]
MK: TOPIC: Windows splitter
18:10:51 [jamesn]
zakim, take up item 1
18:10:51 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "windowsplitter" taken up [from mattking]
18:11:00 [jamesn]
zakim, aacc is Birkir
18:11:00 [Zakim]
+Birkir; got it
18:11:30 [Birkir]
Birkir has joined #aria-apg
18:11:37 [jongund]
MK: The keyboard section, the description seems incomplete
18:13:00 [jongund]
JH: Minimize it to hide one of the panes, variable size is being able to drag left and right to make it bigger or smaller
18:13:12 [jongund]
JN: Keyboard interaction note
18:13:41 [jongund]
MK: I am not sure about control+F6, it has gained some implementation,....
18:13:50 [jongund]
MK: Where does it come from?
18:13:59 [jongund]
JN: I ahve never seen it implemented
18:14:24 [jongund]
Bir: I have not seen it
18:14:38 [jongund]
MK: There are other editorial stuff too
18:14:46 [jongund]
JN: I am going to file a bug
18:14:56 [jongund]
AA: Why is F6 optional?
18:15:01 [jongund]
MK: Because it is
18:15:27 [jongund]
MK: In some cases you just tab, but F6 does not go between main content and other sections
18:15:43 [jongund]
JN: If there are alot of links it becomes a big deal
18:15:54 [jongund]
MK: one window or two windows, two areas
18:16:26 [jongund]
JN: It is associated with the one that minimizes, the one it controls, the other one just gets bigger or smaller
18:16:44 [jongund]
MK: Visually it is a line between two windows?
18:16:49 [jongund]
JN: yes
18:16:50 [Zakim]
+Bryan_Garaventa
18:17:14 [jongund]
MK: If it has a visible title, would that not be best practices
18:17:59 [jongund]
MK: I would have put the labelledby language, put in the new region text
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MK: Use visible headings when they are present
18:18:14 [bgaraventa1979]
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18:18:25 [jongund]
AA: Roles, states and properties use .....
18:18:43 [jongund]
MK: What does label text on the splitter mean?
18:18:52 [bgaraventa1979]
zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
18:18:52 [Zakim]
ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
18:19:01 [jongund]
AA: reading definition from spec....
18:19:11 [jongund]
MK: Is there text on the splitter?
18:19:17 [jongund]
JN: There could be
18:19:26 [jongund]
JN: Normally an image or an icon
18:19:50 [jongund]
JN: More text is redundant, where it si text or not is not relavent
18:19:56 [jongund]
AA: Label the splitter ...
18:20:27 [jongund]
MK: So whent hey say splitters are expandable and contractable is that ...
18:21:10 [jongund]
MK: I don't understand how the splitter exapnding, but the window may ...
18:21:32 [jongund]
JN: If you exapnd it you collapse it, vise versa, this is wrong!
18:21:48 [jongund]
JN: Home and end are not the right controls to do this, I have never seen this
18:22:03 [jongund]
JN: With a mouse you click on the splitter
18:22:26 [jongund]
BG: If you double click it will expand or collapse, we are both trying to understand how it works
18:22:56 [jongund]
MK: It is not a button...., I don't know how ...., notion of what enter would do is ambigious
18:23:12 [jongund]
JN: Expand it by activating it
18:23:34 [jongund]
MK: Any other you expact to do it with the enter key
18:23:48 [jongund]
JN: It would need to have the aria-expanded state on it
18:23:56 [jongund]
MK: Does it look like a tiny line
18:24:21 [jongund]
JN: vertical or horizontal .... to expand it, I have seen it done differently
18:24:30 [jongund]
MK: Maximize and minimize
18:25:20 [jongund]
JN: You can only get it to its maximize it through dragging, typically you don't make them as big as you can
18:26:24 [jongund]
MK: There are not very many informaitn on the the current size
18:27:18 [jongund]
JN: It is helpful to hide complexity, you can minimize it it takes it out of the model
18:27:26 [jongund]
MK: I have used that
18:27:58 [jongund]
JN: the sizing you can see the stuff you want to see, the only time is during screen sharing and screen shots
18:28:05 [jongund]
JN: Low vision....
18:28:47 [jongund]
Bir: If something is slightly smaller, or made availabel in menus, if you expand it....
18:28:57 [jongund]
JN: Do we have any conclusions
18:29:10 [jongund]
MK: We should delete the control+f6...
18:29:39 [jongund]
JN: It is optional, there is no down side to doing it, it could be useful
18:29:55 [jongund]
JN: F6 would be a shortcut
18:30:08 [jongund]
AA: I have had to take it out, if they are already implemented it
18:30:21 [jongund]
JN: Extra stuff is not a problem
18:30:33 [jongund]
JN: it is not harmful
18:31:03 [jongund]
MK: That is what I am questioning, there are alot of patterns we have not visited yet, will this be a problem with other widgets
18:31:34 [jongund]
MK: One of the area is navigation among sibling regions
18:31:51 [jongund]
AA: I don't see it causes harm if focus is on the splitter
18:32:12 [jongund]
BG: It only works when focus is on the splitter
18:32:35 [jongund]
JN: F6 is what the browser uses between frames, so that one is quite reasonable
18:33:02 [jongund]
JN: I am torn, since very few people will do it, ...
18:33:46 [jongund]
MK: Recommended practices, if we do not believe strongly we should take it out, these keys might be more valuable somewhere elese
18:34:26 [jongund]
BG: They could be the basic keystrokes, we could more clearly delineate between basic, best practices....
18:34:47 [jongund]
JN: F6 is a much stronger, we leave them all muddies the waters
18:35:18 [jongund]
MK: It is kind of interesting that F6 is mentioned
18:35:31 [jongund]
JN: I want F6 here, we really need it
18:35:44 [jongund]
JN: Depends on the application for the other keys
18:36:06 [jongund]
MK: What does F6 do on iOS, nothing on my keyboard
18:36:22 [jongund]
MK: Totally depends on the keyboard
18:36:55 [jongund]
MK: Seems stand to have a strongly recommended versus a weakly recommended
18:37:30 [jongund]
MK: Are there some conditions where the recommendation would be a stronger recommendation? I can't think of any
18:37:50 [jongund]
MK: If F6 stays optional, then I think we should get rid of the other ones
18:37:56 [jongund]
JN: Yes
18:38:02 [jongund]
BG: yes
18:38:16 [jongund]
MK:The tab key will get you to the splitter
18:38:27 [jongund]
MK: Note about the context menu for restore
18:38:32 [jongund]
JN: what context menu
18:38:38 [jongund]
MK: There is a note here
18:38:57 [mattking]
Note: The group recommends that a splitter "default position restore" option be available in a context menu.
18:38:59 [mattking]
note end
18:39:42 [jongund]
MK: Are you recommend that we delete?
18:39:49 [jongund]
JN: I am not opposed
18:39:54 [jongund]
AA: context menu
18:40:03 [jongund]
JN: I can's see people implementing that
18:40:18 [jongund]
MK: Perhaps the not should be deleted
18:40:37 [jongund]
AA: I don't think devs will muck around with the context menu
18:40:48 [jongund]
AA: Plateform/browser specific
18:41:02 [jongund]
MK: So leave the home and end key in then?
18:41:07 [jongund]
JN: We can leave them
18:42:08 [jongund]
JN: I have not heard maximize to be a use case
18:42:22 [jongund]
BG: Max and span appropriately ...
18:42:30 [jongund]
JN: Make those optional
18:42:45 [jongund]
BG: I like it, developers are confused with keyboard support
18:43:12 [jongund]
MK: Left and right, up and down ..., is there a bi-directional splitter?
18:43:18 [jongund]
JN: no such thing
18:43:22 [jongund]
MK: I will design one
18:43:35 [jongund]
JN: I would not advise anyone to do that
18:43:50 [jongund]
JS: How would you tell it is 90 degrees..
18:44:15 [jongund]
JN: summarizing
18:45:08 [jamesn]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28084
18:45:23 [jongund]
TOPIC: Listbox
18:45:51 [jamesn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#Listbox
18:46:35 [LJWatson]
LJWatson has joined #aria-apg
18:47:15 [jongund]
Bir: It does not mention check..., there no ...
18:47:36 [jongund]
MK:Does option support check?
18:47:40 [jongund]
Bir: Yes
18:47:46 [jongund]
JN: It does
18:47:53 [jongund]
MK: So that is good
18:48:25 [jongund]
JN: It even says checkbox, ... why until now
18:48:40 [jongund]
MK: From an aria stand point there is no checkbox
18:48:54 [jongund]
Bir: Checkable item
18:49:12 [jongund]
JN: whats the defference between checked and selected?
18:49:46 [jongund]
Bir: Single select you can ....
18:50:05 [jongund]
MK: Checkable options are used with the selection model uses SPACE bar
18:50:19 [jongund]
MK: If you use SHIFT+ARROW then you use select
18:50:43 [jongund]
MK: Some list boxes only work that way
18:50:58 [jongund]
MK: Some list boxes you can just use the space bar
18:51:15 [jongund]
MK: There are some list boxes that support both, never seen one
18:51:51 [jongund]
BG: There are recommended keyboard shortcuts, is it up to the implementer, it is strange no keyboard
18:52:01 [jongund]
AA: Like ALT++DOWN ARROW?
18:52:19 [jongund]
MK: Checkable option thing is not discussed
18:52:34 [jongund]
LW: I am not sure I fully understand the difference
18:53:40 [jongund]
Bir: Selected follows... you can have something checked on single select... a list of 5 options on number 3, option 1 is checked
18:53:53 [jongund]
MK: Selection follows focus model
18:54:26 [jongund]
MK: I didn't think select should be used in combination with checked
18:54:46 [jongund]
Bir: you may not, but they do work together....
18:54:56 [jongund]
LW: Use case to select things on a list box
18:55:18 [jongund]
MK: It is just another selection model, you don't have to hold down any keys when selecting
18:55:33 [jongund]
LW: Is it a use firendly design pattern?
18:55:52 [jongund]
JN: It really depends on single select or multi-select..
18:56:08 [jongund]
JN: I have seen both
18:56:43 [jongund]
MK: I have seen it alot, especially like in when your selecting a set of objects in like a file system....
18:56:50 [jongund]
LW: OK yeah
18:56:59 [jongund]
JN: Columns in a databse
18:57:17 [jongund]
MK: I was thinking of more like a tree, but it can be done in a list box
18:57:48 [jongund]
JN: the thing that is confusing me, is what if theck and select are true
18:58:52 [jongund]
MK: We should do one of two things, say there is two different selection models, and recommend people always use select, unless people feel we should also encourage people use checked for some purpose
18:59:35 [jongund]
Bir: Most people will be using aria-select, but we should have partically selected example
18:59:42 [jongund]
MK: We need to change the wording
19:00:11 [jongund]
MK: I have a basic quesion, if you come to a list box focus should go to the selected item
19:00:16 [jongund]
JN: It should
19:00:19 [jongund]
LW: it should
19:00:46 [jongund]
JN: If there is nothing selected, what should happen, first item?
19:02:07 [jongund]
MK: If it is not selected I am not sure it should be the first item
19:02:33 [jongund]
Bir: it doesn't actually select anything, you have to arrow in
19:02:48 [jongund]
BG: Something I ...
19:03:28 [jamesn]
Tab: When recieves focus, move focus to the first item with aria-selected="true". If nothing is selected then move focus to the first item and, optionally, select the item depending on functionality desired.
19:03:35 [jongund]
MK: I would change these when a list is tabbed to..., a list receives focus that ....
19:03:49 [jongund]
JN: Reads an updated working....
19:04:12 [jongund]
MK: Except for the first time..., you are thinking of the multi-select
19:04:35 [jongund]
Bir: Even if it is multi-select you still have to arrow
19:04:53 [jongund]
MK: If one is alrady selected, the selected item is focused
19:05:16 [jongund]
MK: It one or more items, the first selected option should get focus
19:05:31 [jongund]
AA: That is for multi select
19:06:03 [jongund]
JN: It should be the one the user actually selected, but I am not expecting developers to track that
19:06:20 [jongund]
AA: Unless something ius selected by default, i.e not user action
19:06:35 [jongund]
BG: First one is the safest bet
19:07:36 [jongund]
JG: Carousels are using horizontal list boxes
19:07:43 [jongund]
JN: I hate them
19:08:10 [jamesn]
"pain"
19:08:26 [jongund]
MK: It depends on what are in your carousels, if you have mutliple items, pane, then table liet works well, tablist controls rotation
19:08:38 [jongund]
LW: There are some HTML5 widgets
19:08:56 [jongund]
MK: Listbox is not the greatest choice
19:09:10 [jongund]
Bir: Tablist is better
19:09:28 [LJWatson]
s/There are some HTML5 widgets/There is work being done on an HTML5 extension to create native elements for creating carousels, tabs etc./
19:09:31 [jongund]
JN: Perhaps LISTBOX needs an orientation
19:09:37 [jongund]
JN: If people are using it for it
19:09:54 [jongund]
BG: Horizontal select
19:10:03 [jongund]
BG: I guess you could
19:10:13 [jongund]
Bir: ... horizontal...
19:10:26 [jongund]
MK: Conceptually maybe we should think about it
19:11:02 [jongund]
MK: The roles and the design patterns is to communicate the interaction pattern, regardless of visual rendering
19:12:06 [jongund]
MK: Bir: it is horizontal, keyboard only users will not expect to use up and down
19:12:26 [jongund]
JN: Just like with slider, we can do up/down and left/right
19:12:48 [jongund]
MK: Tablist we need to support orientation?
19:12:54 [jongund]
AA: they can be
19:13:04 [jongund]
JN: Carousel
19:13:17 [jongund]
LW: Carousel is a different design pattern
19:13:37 [jongund]
MK: It depends on the carousel...
19:13:50 [jongund]
MK: In some cases there are panes
19:14:15 [jongund]
Bir: If you orientation on listbox, it will be on a lot of other things
19:14:39 [jongund]
JN: You may or may not, a multi-selctable carousel hurts my brain
19:15:17 [jongund]
MK: I was thinking of something that works like a listbox....,into a menubar...., maybe make a toolbar of checkboxes
19:15:24 [jongund]
JN: Or toggle button
19:15:42 [jongund]
MK: Toolbar full of checkboxes
19:16:09 [jongund]
AA: Put the work optional...
19:16:31 [jongund]
JN: When something is optional people will not do it
19:17:31 [jongund]
MK: The boundary is 7 or more then use a listbox
19:17:58 [jongund]
Bir: I get confused is partial match, thet could be optional
19:18:30 [jongund]
Bir: Should we make that optional, people to type multiple letters
19:18:46 [jongund]
MK: County/city and they all start with country
19:19:03 [jongund]
MK: Are you going to type Yugo... an then space
19:19:23 [jongund]
JN: Menu will now search text anywhere
19:19:35 [jongund]
MK: Lotus notes does that, one good feature
19:20:41 [jongund]
MK: Break it into two separate bullets?
19:20:44 [jongund]
Bir: yes
19:21:00 [jongund]
BG: Full screen, incredibly hard to do that
19:21:10 [jongund]
JN: Auto complete pattern
19:21:14 [jongund]
Bir: That was my comment
19:21:32 [jongund]
AA: 50+ us states and you have to type T twice
19:21:51 [jongund]
JN: What about states that start with N
19:22:13 [jongund]
JN: Can we finish this one off?
19:22:38 [jongund]
MK: More than seven should support first letter navigation
19:23:04 [jongund]
JN: The second bullet point needs editing
19:23:16 [jongund]
MK: I was going to say the same thing
19:23:25 [jongund]
AA: WHat does up and down need eidting
19:23:31 [jongund]
JN: I meant thrid
19:23:51 [jongund]
MK: I have never used SHIFT+SPACE
19:24:04 [jongund]
JN: it is normal...
19:24:09 [jongund]
BG: It is cool
19:24:16 [jongund]
MK: I have never heard of this
19:24:36 [jongund]
JN: You have to be careful
19:24:47 [jongund]
LW: arrow key gets everything in its path
19:25:02 [jongund]
JN: Drop it?
19:25:29 [jongund]
MK: I have never seen it work, but I have not tried it, how does mouse clicking work
19:25:48 [jongund]
AA: I think we should not remove shift+space
19:25:54 [jongund]
BG: i think it is great
19:26:34 [jongund]
MK: Do we need to put an note in about partial selection, then use checkable options, rather than partial select
19:26:48 [jongund]
JN: How can one be partially selected?
19:26:59 [jongund]
MK: Then it becomes a tree
19:27:40 [jongund]
BG: I have seen this on windows apps, we have checkable options, the checkable options support different states, ....
19:27:57 [jongund]
JN: What does it mean to partially select ...
19:28:06 [jongund]
BG: Use space bar to move between states
19:28:13 [jongund]
JN: I still don't get it
19:28:38 [jongund]
BG: describes an interaction....
19:30:03 [jongund]
AA: I see this use pattern in installed
19:30:45 [jongund]
MK: it is not a tree, there could be a set of options..., four different categories of things, .....
19:30:52 [Zakim]
-Jemma
19:30:56 [jongund]
rrsagent minutes, drat
19:31:00 [jongund]
rrsagent minutes, draft
19:31:12 [jongund]
rrsagent, minutes draft
19:31:12 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'minutes draft', jongund. Try /msg RRSAgent help
19:31:21 [jongund]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:31:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-minutes.html jongund
19:34:30 [Zakim]
-Jon_Gunderson
19:34:56 [Zakim]
-LJWatson
19:35:00 [jamesn]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28085
19:35:09 [Zakim]
-janina
19:35:13 [Zakim]
-James_Nurthen
19:35:14 [Zakim]
-Birkir
19:35:16 [Zakim]
-Matt_King
19:35:18 [Zakim]
-Bryan_Garaventa
19:35:48 [Zakim]
-annabbott
19:35:49 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has ended
19:35:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.512.459.aaaa, James_Nurthen, Matt_King, +1.217.244.aabb, LJWatson, annabbott, Jemma, janina, Jon_Gunderson, +1.919.607.aacc, Birkir, Bryan_Garaventa
20:19:03 [mattking]
mattking has joined #aria-apg
23:09:41 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
23:09:41 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-irc
23:09:45 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make log world
23:09:49 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:09:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-minutes.html MichaelC
23:11:45 [MichaelC]
meeting: ARIA APG
23:11:55 [MichaelC]
chair: Matt_King
23:11:57 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:11:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-minutes.html MichaelC
23:12:00 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, bye
23:12:00 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items