IRC log of aria on 2015-02-19
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 17:28:24 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #aria
- 17:28:24 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-aria-irc
- 17:28:26 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs member
- 17:28:26 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #aria
- 17:28:27 [janina]
- trackbot, start meeting
- 17:28:28 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
- 17:28:28 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG()12:30PM already started
- 17:28:29 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
- 17:28:29 [trackbot]
- Date: 19 February 2015
- 17:28:31 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs member
- 17:28:33 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
- 17:28:33 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG()12:30PM already started
- 17:28:34 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
- 17:28:34 [trackbot]
- Date: 19 February 2015
- 17:28:37 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- chair: Rich
- 17:28:40 [janina]
- zakim, who's here?
- 17:28:41 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see ??P4
- 17:28:42 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, jamesn, asurkov, LJWatson, newtron, MarkS, janina, joanie, ed, trackbot
- 17:28:45 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- Meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
- 17:28:54 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- RRSAgent, make log public
- 17:28:55 [janina]
- zakim, ??P4 is me
- 17:28:56 [Zakim]
- +janina; got it
- 17:29:35 [janina]
- zakim, who's here?
- 17:29:35 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see janina
- 17:29:37 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, jamesn, asurkov, LJWatson, newtron, MarkS, janina, joanie, ed, trackbot
- 17:30:13 [clown]
- clown has joined #aria
- 17:30:15 [Zakim]
- +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
- 17:30:38 [jongund]
- jongund has joined #aria
- 17:30:58 [Zakim]
- + +1.719.339.aaaa
- 17:31:43 [Zakim]
- +Joanmarie_Diggs
- 17:32:03 [Zakim]
- +James_Nurthen
- 17:32:25 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Feb/0039.html
- 17:32:47 [Zakim]
- +[GVoice]
- 17:32:56 [clown]
- zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
- 17:32:57 [Zakim]
- +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
- 17:33:06 [clown]
- zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
- 17:33:06 [Zakim]
- ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
- 17:33:07 [jamesn]
- https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html
- 17:33:38 [fesch]
- fesch has joined #aria
- 17:33:43 [Zakim]
- - +1.719.339.aaaa
- 17:33:51 [Zakim]
- +Jon_Gunderson
- 17:33:54 [Zakim]
- + +1.703.978.aabb
- 17:34:04 [Zakim]
- +??P9
- 17:34:16 [fesch]
- zakim fesch is aabb
- 17:34:22 [janina]
- zakim, who's here?
- 17:34:22 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joanmarie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Jon_Gunderson, +1.703.978.aabb, ??P9
- 17:34:24 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see fesch, jongund, clown, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, jamesn, asurkov, LJWatson, newtron, MarkS, janina, joanie, ed, trackbot
- 17:34:29 [Zakim]
- + +1.719.339.aacc
- 17:35:08 [fesch]
- zakim, I am aaaa
- 17:35:08 [Zakim]
- sorry, fesch, I do not see a party named 'aaaa'
- 17:35:52 [clown]
- http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-listitem
- 17:36:14 [MichaelC]
- MichaelC has joined #aria
- 17:36:53 [Zakim]
- +??P17
- 17:37:22 [MichaelC]
- ack me
- 17:38:22 [MichaelC]
- zakim, aabb is Fred_Esch
- 17:38:22 [Zakim]
- +Fred_Esch; got it
- 17:38:39 [MichaelC]
- zakim, aacc is Matt_King
- 17:38:39 [Zakim]
- +Matt_King; got it
- 17:39:00 [asurkov]
- I’m on the call but I don’t know phone identification
- 17:39:06 [MichaelC]
- zakim, ??P9 is Alexander_Surkov
- 17:39:06 [Zakim]
- +Alexander_Surkov; got it
- 17:40:08 [jamesn]
- scribeNick: jamesn
- 17:40:16 [jamesn]
- agenda?
- 17:40:35 [jamesn]
- can you please add the agenda link
- 17:40:45 [clown]
- https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Feb/0039.html
- 17:41:18 [jamesn]
- ACTION-1395?
- 17:41:18 [trackbot]
- ACTION-1395 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add table role to taxonomy and aria 1.1 spec. -- due 2015-02-12 -- OPEN
- 17:41:18 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1395
- 17:41:25 [jamesn]
- and
- 17:41:30 [jamesn]
- ACTION-1293?
- 17:41:30 [trackbot]
- ACTION-1293 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Add aria-colindex to role gridcell and aria-rowindex to role row -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
- 17:41:30 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1293
- 17:41:37 [Zakim]
- + +1.650.738.aadd
- 17:41:47 [jamesn]
- rs: Joanie was going to create a trunk for that
- 17:41:56 [jamesn]
- jmd: not done yet
- 17:42:05 [jamesn]
- ACTION-1581?
- 17:42:06 [trackbot]
- ACTION-1581 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Create a proposal for a panel role and modify the group role to be more generic -- due 2015-02-26 -- OPEN
- 17:42:06 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1581
- 17:42:18 [jamesn]
- jmd: canvas deadlines again prevented that
- 17:43:02 [jamesn]
- jmd: did you have a plan to mail the list about plans for rowindex and colindex?
- 17:43:05 [jamesn]
- rs: don't recall an action for that
- 17:43:10 [bgaraventa1979]
- bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
- 17:43:12 [jamesn]
- ACTION-1293?
- 17:43:12 [trackbot]
- ACTION-1293 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Add aria-colindex to role gridcell and aria-rowindex to role row -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
- 17:43:12 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1293
- 17:43:36 [bgaraventa1979]
- zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
- 17:43:36 [Zakim]
- sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not see a party named 'Bryan_Garaventa'
- 17:43:50 [jamesn]
- jmd: this action is now assigned to rs
- 17:44:07 [bgaraventa1979]
- zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
- 17:44:07 [Zakim]
- sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
- 17:44:08 [jamesn]
- ACTION-1362?
- 17:44:08 [trackbot]
- ACTION-1362 -- James Craig to Patch issue-640: aria-hasmanagedfocus -- due 2015-01-29 -- OPEN
- 17:44:08 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1362
- 17:45:31 [jamesn]
- mk: I think we don't even want this attribute until we have the thing which comes along with it like control patterns
- 17:46:05 [jamesn]
- mk: until we can extend roles and specify control patterns then AT can have some way of knowing that there is some specified way to interct with things
- 17:46:13 [jamesn]
- mk: don't like it at all
- 17:46:28 [jamesn]
- rs: wondering if we could at least apply it to something like a list.
- 17:46:44 [jamesn]
- mk: for that i think we need to have a role which maps to an a11y API
- 17:47:02 [jamesn]
- mk: a list view which is different from a select
- 17:47:11 [jamesn]
- mk: can you say what you are referring to
- 17:47:21 [clown]
- http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-tree ?
- 17:47:31 [jamesn]
- mk: it is actually the same role which they use
- 17:47:33 [jamesn]
- q+
- 17:47:42 [jamesn]
- jmd: we have tree and treetable
- 17:47:56 [jamesn]
- mk: the same one that is used in windows explorer
- 17:48:11 [jamesn]
- mk: for the list of files in your file system
- 17:48:35 [jamesn]
- mk: not sure if there is a need to distinguish between a listview and a treeview
- 17:49:54 [fesch]
- q+
- 17:51:27 [jamesn]
- rs: the point you are making is that you don't know how to interact with it just by saying it is interactive
- 17:52:03 [jamesn]
- mk: the AT can't really tell you what the role is. If it is a static role that doesn't mean anything in terms of interactivity
- 17:52:51 [Zakim]
- -Joseph_Scheuhammer
- 17:53:23 [Zakim]
- +[GVoice]
- 17:53:36 [clown]
- zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
- 17:53:36 [Zakim]
- +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
- 17:53:43 [clown]
- zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
- 17:53:43 [Zakim]
- ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
- 17:54:30 [clown]
- http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#group
- 17:58:38 [jamesn]
- problem is that have widgets which we need to support which do not have roles available. currently have to have role=application with a role=group inside. aria-activedescendent is used inside. Problem is we can't put it on aplpication
- 17:59:02 [jamesn]
- rs: help can certainly help here
- 17:59:52 [jamesn]
- mk: in fred's case normally even for a graph when you put the focus on the highlighted item. Your choices are tabindex or activedescendaent. That element has to have a role.
- 18:00:27 [jamesn]
- fe: everything had to have to show highlights.... when we do chart navigation you tell the item you are selected and to highlight.....
- 18:00:35 [jamesn]
- mk: how does a screen reader pick that up
- 18:01:18 [jamesn]
- fe: we build a shadow DOM. The graphics don't always contain the information. If you have colour and shape the info you get when you hit a shape is other info
- 18:01:19 [Zakim]
- + +1.512.445.aaee
- 18:01:33 [Susann_Keohane]
- Susann_Keohane has joined #aria
- 18:02:15 [jamesn]
- mk: you have to give things focus. You use widget roles like
- 18:02:52 [jamesn]
- fe: while a sighted user can pick out the informtion. Giving someone a circle doesn't do much good if you don't tell someone what the values are
- 18:04:09 [jamesn]
- fe: we do a lot of things which aren't the same for blind users
- 18:04:23 [jamesn]
- jn: we don't want different renderers for different user types
- 18:04:35 [jamesn]
- rs: can't wait 3 years for interactive charts
- 18:05:02 [jamesn]
- rs: think we need something. help info is the way to do this in the short term
- 18:05:06 [jamesn]
- mk: better way is defined control patterns
- 18:05:39 [jamesn]
- rs: think we need something now to provide a user information that something is interactive and there is the ability to provide information as to how to use something
- 18:05:59 [jamesn]
- mk: haven't heard anything that says we don't have what we need
- 18:06:07 [jamesn]
- rs: I don't want role=applciation either
- 18:06:18 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 18:06:19 [jamesn]
- mk: you still need some widget role in there
- 18:07:37 [jamesn]
- mk: we have a way to get all the events. One thing could do is make application not a landmark - could make it like group.
- 18:07:57 [jamesn]
- mk: no need for the application landmark. only thing it does is suck up the screen reader keys
- 18:08:04 [clown]
- http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#application
- 18:08:06 [jamesn]
- q+
- 18:08:13 [fesch]
- ack me
- 18:08:33 [jamesn]
- rs: if you land on something that is an application it doesn't sound like a widget
- 18:08:47 [jamesn]
- cs: used by the screen reader to swicth into forms mode
- 18:09:57 [jamesn]
- mk: could make the widget role concrete. If made application just a container and not a landmark then the effect is it just allows keys to pass through
- 18:10:18 [jamesn]
- mk: i don't see the value today of application being a subclass of landmark
- 18:10:36 [cyns]
- cyns has joined #aria
- 18:11:02 [jamesn]
- jn: i think an attribute is clearer.
- 18:11:05 [jamesn]
- rs: I think this is important for graphics
- 18:12:40 [jamesn]
- mk: i would make a proposal that only allow it on the group role and no other - if that is what group does
- 18:12:44 [jamesn]
- jn: what about image
- 18:13:02 [jamesn]
- rs: what does the SVG element map to
- 18:13:38 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- ‘svg’ group role no restrictions
- 18:14:09 [clown]
- http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-img
- 18:14:43 [clown]
- http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-canvas
- 18:15:02 [jamesn]
- rs: i think allowing it on a group role or and image then can do this.
- 18:15:11 [jamesn]
- rs: that would restrict it
- 18:15:45 [jamesn]
- mk: what would the expected result be for a screen reader user
- 18:17:10 [jamesn]
- jn: author is responsible for documenting the keyboard method of using things
- 18:17:26 [jamesn]
- mk: hard to imagine the screen readers handling this very well
- 18:17:43 [jamesn]
- rs: will have roles like that in svg and will be able to apply them to html too
- 18:18:11 [clown]
- issue-636?
- 18:18:11 [trackbot]
- issue-636 -- Continue discussion of localized role "name" (or custom role "descriptions" on known role types) -- open
- 18:18:11 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/636
- 18:18:21 [jamesn]
- fe: when a screen reader is runnign - even if you have a chart chich is a widget. Some of the keys don't get down to the widget as they are consumed by the browser.
- 18:18:53 [jamesn]
- mk: the screen reader would never hear interactive group
- 18:19:04 [jamesn]
- mk: the thing inside would have a label
- 18:19:30 [jamesn]
- fe: then when you start taking keyboard control then you have an apparent focus which you see in the screen reader
- 18:19:50 [jamesn]
- mk: the apparent focus from a screen reader perspective is the actual focus
- 18:20:17 [jamesn]
- fe: the screen reader focus is wherever in the shadow dom we move you but the browser focus is on the main element
- 18:21:02 [jamesn]
- mk: the screen reader needs to know something about where focus is. In the case of your shadow dom it is wherever in the shadow dom the focus is
- 18:21:26 [jamesn]
- there is a dom focus. You don't need role description - if you have a span inside the grup then whatever you label that span
- 18:22:00 [jamesn]
- mk: then if you solve that problem if you label the span image then if the screen reader is in forms mode then it will just think the image had focus
- 18:22:26 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- These are the SVG role mappiings: https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#implicit-aria-semantics
- 18:22:31 [jamesn]
- mk: so we are just using the group as a wrapper as a generic application for all practical purposes
- 18:23:24 [jamesn]
- rs: will be interesting for graphics as nobody has defined standard intercation patterns for charts
- 18:23:52 [jamesn]
- fe: National center for accessible media has suggested interactions for charts
- 18:24:38 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- http://ncam.wgbh.org/experience_learn/educational_media/stemdx/exa
- 18:24:59 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- http://ncam.wgbh.org/experience_learn/educational_media/stemdx
- 18:26:18 [jamesn]
- rs: matt can you live with group or image
- 18:29:07 [clown]
- action-1548
- 18:29:07 [trackbot]
- action-1548 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Write revised proposal for aria-current based on today’s meeting for issue 587 -- due 2015-01-29 -- PENDINGREVIEW
- 18:29:07 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1548
- 18:29:40 [jamesn]
- ACTION-1349?
- 18:29:40 [trackbot]
- ACTION-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
- 18:29:40 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349
- 18:29:58 [jamesn]
- rs: assume you haven't got to it yet.
- 18:30:21 [jamesn]
- jmd: haven't touched it in weeks. Posted something a month ago. There was dicsussion but no conclusion.
- 18:30:43 [jamesn]
- jmd: I wrote proposed text and sent it and there was discussion
- 18:31:02 [jamesn]
- rs: add a draft in the spec and add the comments so we can discuss on a call
- 18:32:02 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Feb/0076.html
- 18:34:31 [jamesn]
- mk: can we use should in the normal english way
- 18:36:22 [jamesn]
- jn: could have multiple currents in (for example) an IDE
- 18:37:02 [jamesn]
- clown: long ago we came up with "is recommended"
- 18:37:23 [jamesn]
- mk: is it allowed to use should in any other way in the documented
- 18:37:42 [jamesn]
- clown: it is recommended not to use should except in normative ways
- 18:37:56 [jamesn]
- mk: was thinking of these as notes
- 18:38:15 [jamesn]
- mk: agree that the first note should be written into text as a should
- 18:38:37 [jamesn]
- rs: the 2nd i don't think needs to be a note
- 18:39:27 [jamesn]
- clown: I think the first is a must but...
- 18:39:56 [jamesn]
- jn: don't we not have author musts anyway
- 18:40:13 [clown]
- http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-describedat
- 18:40:24 [clown]
- describedat has an author MUST
- 18:41:22 [jamesn]
- mk: can't have it in test tools as we don't know what the scope is
- 18:41:34 [jamesn]
- mk: i think authors should is strong enough
- 18:41:44 [jamesn]
- clown: I can barely live with it
- 18:43:38 [jamesn]
- TOPIC: open actions and issues
- 18:43:50 [jamesn]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17
- 18:43:53 [MichaelC]
- ack me
- 18:43:58 [MichaelC]
- q+
- 18:44:05 [jamesn]
- ack me
- 18:44:53 [jamesn]
- mc: work on the test harness hasn't been top of my list
- 18:45:16 [jamesn]
- mc: 1 reason got fouled up is the security was tightened and took down some parts without telling me
- 18:45:36 [jamesn]
- mc: there is now labs.w3.org and can either provide a VM for us there
- 18:45:45 [jamesn]
- mc: should pursue that option.
- 18:46:16 [jamesn]
- mc: do we want to put the harness code in github. Think it is a reqlly sepcific thing and wont be a lot of general interest in it.
- 18:46:35 [jamesn]
- jg: will it be possible to do testing of html5 features with a different branch.
- 18:47:02 [jamesn]
- mc: the harness was set up for that. There are automated html things in testthe web forward suite
- 18:47:10 [jamesn]
- gd: is there a link for test the web forward
- 18:47:16 [MichaelC]
- http://testthewebforward.org/
- 18:47:21 [jamesn]
- s/gd/jg/
- 18:47:39 [jamesn]
- mc: lower on their list for accessibility testing
- 18:47:49 [jamesn]
- mc: won't hit their list for some years
- 18:48:39 [jamesn]
- rs: some meetings after csun?
- 18:48:47 [jamesn]
- mc: maybe 1 or 2 special meetings
- 18:49:02 [jamesn]
- jg: have people to do testing once we have a harness
- 18:49:30 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- Action: cooper Host test harness meeting for ARIA 1.1
- 18:49:31 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-1587 - Host test harness meeting for aria 1.1 [on Michael Cooper - due 2015-02-26].
- 18:51:11 [jamesn]
- ACTION-1073?
- 18:51:11 [trackbot]
- ACTION-1073 -- Matthew King to Update aria-selected to reflect that it communicates selectability and clarify responsibility for ensuring aria-selected=false is on selectable elements -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
- 18:51:11 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1073
- 18:51:51 [jamesn]
- mk: target end of march
- 18:52:21 [jamesn]
- ACTION-1361?
- 18:52:21 [trackbot]
- ACTION-1361 -- James Nurthen to Suggest new text for the application role -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
- 18:52:21 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361
- 18:54:45 [clown]
- action-1363
- 18:54:45 [trackbot]
- action-1363 -- James Craig to Patch issue-603: aria-startsmedia -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
- 18:54:45 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1363
- 18:55:02 [jamesn]
- a note to make it modality specific
- 18:58:30 [jamesn]
- mk: part of me is wondering would the screen reader want to know does the media start playing and the author believes that the author's intent
- 19:00:32 [jamesn]
- jn: can we wait until jc is here to discuss
- 19:01:02 [jamesn]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 19:01:02 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-aria-minutes.html jamesn
- 19:01:24 [Zakim]
- - +1.512.445.aaee
- 19:01:26 [jamesn]
- zakim, please part
- 19:01:26 [Zakim]
- leaving. As of this point the attendees were janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, +1.719.339.aaaa, Joanmarie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Jon_Gunderson, +1.703.978.aabb,
- 19:01:26 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #aria
- 19:01:29 [Zakim]
- ... +1.719.339.aacc, Michael_Cooper, Fred_Esch, Matt_King, Alexander_Surkov, +1.650.738.aadd, +1.512.445.aaee, [Microsoft]
- 19:01:49 [jamesn]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 19:01:49 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-aria-minutes.html jamesn
- 19:06:11 [jamesn]
- present+ Michael_Cooper, Fred_Esch, Matt_King, Alexander_Surkov, Cynthia_Shelly
- 19:06:14 [jamesn]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 19:06:14 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-aria-minutes.html jamesn
- 19:12:22 [clown]
- clown has joined #aria
- 20:02:19 [janina]
- janina has changed the topic to: ARIA Teleconference; Thursday 26 February at 17:30Z; Zakim 2742#
- 20:21:29 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
- 20:54:29 [janina]
- janina has joined #aria
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