IRC log of wpay on 2015-02-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:59:12 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wpay
16:59:12 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-wpay-irc
16:59:18 [manu]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:59:30 [manu]
zakim, room for 8 for 75 minutes?
16:59:32 [Zakim]
ok, manu; conference Team_(wpay)16:59Z scheduled with code 9729 (WPAY) for 75 minutes until 1814Z
16:59:35 [manu]
zakim, code?
16:59:35 [Zakim]
the conference code is 9729 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), manu
17:00:24 [Zakim]
Team_(wpay)16:59Z has now started
17:00:30 [Zakim]
+??P1
17:00:37 [Zakim]
-??P1
17:00:39 [Zakim]
Team_(wpay)16:59Z has ended
17:00:39 [Zakim]
Attendees were
17:00:47 [manu]
zakim, room for 8 for 75 minutes?
17:00:47 [Zakim]
manu, an adhoc conference was scheduled here less than 2 minutes ago
17:01:28 [Zakim]
Team_(wpay)16:59Z has now started
17:01:35 [Zakim]
+ +1.540.961.aaaa
17:01:39 [manu]
zakim, ?aaaa is manu
17:01:39 [Zakim]
sorry, manu, I do not recognize a party named '?aaaa'
17:01:43 [manu]
zakim, aaaa is manu
17:01:43 [Zakim]
+manu; got it
17:02:10 [Zakim]
+Davd_Ezell
17:03:00 [dezell]
zakim, Davd is me
17:03:00 [Zakim]
+dezell; got it
17:03:14 [Zakim]
+manu.a
17:03:42 [manu]
zakim, manu.a is dlongley
17:03:42 [Zakim]
+dlongley; got it
17:03:47 [manu]
zakim, who is on the call?
17:03:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see manu, dezell, dlongley
17:03:49 [Laurent_]
Laurent_ has joined #wpay
17:04:48 [Zakim]
+Katie_Haritos-Shea
17:05:10 [Zakim]
+dlongley.a
17:05:24 [manu]
zakim, dlongley.a is dlehn
17:05:24 [Zakim]
+dlehn; got it
17:05:34 [Zakim]
+ +33.1.55.01.aabb
17:05:47 [manu]
zakim, aabb is Laurent_
17:05:47 [Zakim]
+Laurent_; got it
17:06:19 [dlehn]
dlehn has joined #wpay
17:06:45 [CyrilV]
CyrilV has joined #wpay
17:07:08 [dezell]
Scribe: Laurent_
17:07:16 [manu]
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments-ig/2015Feb/0011.html
17:07:17 [dezell]
scribenick: Laurent_
17:07:56 [Laurent_]
Closed some edits after the face to face meeting
17:08:25 [manu]
Laurent: I tried to send a mail to the mailing list - a couple of proposals for spec... the mail didn't go out. Don't know if you have a way to add me to the mailing list.
17:09:00 [manu]
David: I think you may not be a member?
17:09:05 [manu]
Laurent: I might have sent it to the wrong mailing list.
17:09:11 [Zakim]
+ +33.6.22.04.aacc
17:09:13 [manu]
David: Send it to public-webpayments-ig@w3.org
17:09:18 [manu]
zakim, aacc is CyrilV
17:09:18 [Zakim]
+CyrilV; got it
17:09:25 [manu]
Laurent: Hmm, I think I sent it there.
17:09:42 [manu]
David: I'll take a look.
17:10:11 [manu]
Manu: We can talk about it next week?
17:10:23 [manu]
Laurent: I have a bunch of comments coming in for review.
17:11:03 [manu]
Laurent: I'll send it use case by use case.
17:11:16 [manu]
Topic: Agenda Bashing
17:11:25 [CyrilV]
i sent also something on the pushed based
17:12:01 [manu]
CyrilV, do you want to discuss on the call today?
17:12:32 [Laurent_]
CyrilV: It's not to discussed today
17:13:08 [manu]
manu: I'd rather send as little as possible to member-webpayments-ig@w3.org
17:13:24 [Laurent_]
David: I'll resend the difference between member and public to CyrilV
17:14:12 [Laurent_]
CyrilV I'll resend it to public-webpayments-ig@w3.org
17:14:28 [manu]
s/CyrilV I'll/CyrilV: I'll/
17:15:03 [Laurent_]
Manu: We'll review it next week to give people time to review the mail
17:15:19 [manu]
Topic: Updated Use Cases Document
17:15:36 [manu]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments-ig/2015Feb/0005.html
17:15:53 [Laurent_]
Manu: this is the email that covers the changes
17:16:00 [manu]
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/use-cases/index.html#toc
17:16:40 [Laurent_]
Manu: In this doc you'll see the latest changes, reflecting most of charles desired changes
17:17:03 [Laurent_]
Manu: lots of title changes (Laurent: couldn't follow them all)
17:17:10 [dezell]
+1 it's a big improvement
17:17:12 [CyrilV]
ok for this types of changes
17:17:25 [manu]
Laurent: I think this is moving in the right direction - some of the use cases are just pieces of the flow instead of the full flow.
17:17:59 [manu]
Laurent: We should take a look at a full payment flow - if I take an example - initiating a payment one, and the ... these are part of the push flow as described for the merchant/customer. So maybe it'll be interesting to merge.
17:18:14 [manu]
Laurent: Similar - we need something for pull payments - payee-initiated.
17:19:06 [Laurent_]
Laurent: We should change blinding to something else (in 3.2)
17:19:17 [Laurent_]
s/Laurent:/Katie:/
17:20:06 [Laurent_]
Manu: Something like "Partially Anonymizing Payment Information"
17:20:22 [dezell]
q+
17:20:29 [manu]
ack dezell
17:21:30 [Laurent_]
dezell: First title doesn't refer to web browser but the text does, we should align things
17:22:01 [Laurent_]
Manu: statement 1 is an acknowledgment of the problem. We should not be specific to the browser.
17:22:34 [Laurent_]
Manu: We need more comments(?) on the use cases, to make sure we're talking about the web not only the browser
17:23:34 [manu]
Laurent: Could we use the term user agent instead of browser?
17:24:25 [Laurent_]
Manu: It's typical but might add complexity since we have a User Payment Agent that may or may not be the User Agent
17:24:28 [dezell]
+1 to using "user agent" as a start toward abstraction.
17:24:53 [Laurent_]
Manu: User Payment Agent doesn't need to be a part of the browser
17:25:18 [Laurent_]
Manu: In the F2F it wasn't clear what the motivations for each use cases was
17:25:33 [Laurent_]
Manu: Detail section really were the motivations
17:25:42 [manu]
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/use-cases/index.html#payer-initiated-funds-transfer
17:26:32 [dlongley]
+1
17:26:34 [Laurent_]
Manu: Now every single use case has a motivation section replacing detail one
17:26:43 [manu]
Laurent: Yes, good change.
17:26:45 [CyrilV]
+1
17:27:49 [Laurent_]
Manu: We had to explain push vs pull based
17:28:19 [Laurent_]
Manu: People are going to continue being confused by that
17:28:21 [CyrilV]
my view is to structure in / card Pyament
17:28:26 [Laurent_]
+1 on payee and payer-initiated
17:29:00 [dezell]
+1 to payer-initiated/payee-initiated
17:29:30 [Laurent_]
Manu: Changes is push-based = "payer-initiated", pull-based = "payee-initiated"
17:29:33 [manu]
Laurent: Good change - I suggest putting it as a glossary-item like thing... it's not quite a use case...
17:29:35 [dezell]
q+
17:30:16 [manu]
Laurent: It's worth having it in the glossary, and it may be important to call out why it's important to the work. Explain why payer-initiated and payee-initiated is important.
17:30:24 [manu]
ack dezell
17:30:27 [CyrilV]
payee initiated is divided into 2 different type of schemes : card system / direct debit. maybe we could make the difference ?
17:31:20 [dezell]
+1 to adding the definitions.
17:31:45 [dlongley]
q+
17:31:50 [manu]
ack dlongley
17:32:00 [CyrilV]
q+
17:32:14 [Laurent_]
dlongley: Still might be some confusion about payer-initiated vs payee-initiated
17:33:09 [Laurent_]
dlongley: use case 2.6 is a bit different than what we described
17:34:03 [Laurent_]
dlongley: We don't know if it refers to fund transfer or the payment itself
17:34:07 [manu]
ack CyrilV
17:35:14 [Laurent_]
CyrilV: Payee initiated can refer to multiple schemes, I'm not sure we need to distinguish between payer/payee initiated
17:36:05 [manu]
Laurent: What Manu and I are talking about is who initiated the payment. The financial transfer in the back-end isn't necessarily what we're talking about.
17:36:38 [manu]
Laurent: It's whether or not the customer initiated the transfer. This is important wrt. message exchange between payer and payee. It has some effect on message itself.
17:36:55 [dlongley]
"Who controls when the actual money moves, the payer (push) or the payee (pull)?"
17:37:24 [Laurent_]
Manu: This generalization is too great a generalization
17:38:18 [Laurent_]
Manu: Front-end messaging, refering to payer/payee initiated, and a completely different set of messages in the back end (credit/debit/card/...) referring to the way funds are transferred
17:38:53 [dlongley]
"clearance/settlement initiation"?
17:39:00 [manu]
Laurent: In the mail I'm going to send to the list - I have a proposal, hopefully that'll solve part of the problem.
17:39:49 [Laurent_]
Manu: Last change was around Partially Blinding Payment Information. Still pose some issues for some in the group
17:40:05 [dlongley]
"Omitting"
17:40:08 [dlongley]
^
17:40:16 [Laurent_]
Manu: We'll have a discussion by email
17:42:07 [manu]
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/use-cases/index.html#toc
17:42:13 [Laurent_]
Manu: Any comments on this particular set of changes?
17:42:40 [Laurent_]
Manu: Any missing changes from F2F?
17:43:37 [manu]
Topic: Reviews and Additions to Use Cases
17:43:50 [Laurent_]
Manu: Next topic - reviews and additions
17:44:41 [manu]
ACTION: Laurent to perform a full review for the Use Cases FPWD.
17:44:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-63 - Perform a full review for the use cases fpwd. [on Laurent Castillo - due 2015-02-19].
17:44:48 [Laurent_]
Manu: Any volunteer for doing a full review of the document?
17:44:49 [manu]
ACTION: Chaals to perform a full review for the Use Cases FPWD.
17:44:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-64 - Perform a full review for the use cases fpwd. [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2015-02-19].
17:46:31 [Laurent_]
???: In the face 2 face we discussed having basic flows, or a set of steps as a basis for the discussion
17:46:44 [Laurent_]
+1 to wroking on flows
17:47:06 [Laurent_]
s/???:/dezell:/
17:47:12 [CyrilV]
my document try to provide basic flows
17:47:12 [manu]
ACTION: Manu to add "basic flow" to each use case as well as nouns (actors) and verbs (actions).
17:47:12 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-65 - Add "basic flow" to each use case as well as nouns (actors) and verbs (actions). [on Manu Sporny - due 2015-02-19].
17:47:26 [CyrilV]
q+
17:47:31 [manu]
ack CyrilV
17:47:40 [Laurent_]
dezell: We need to have steps and flows with common verbs/actions
17:47:55 [CyrilV]
I LL FIX AND COMME BACK
17:48:16 [CyrilV]
q+
17:48:30 [Laurent_]
Manu: There was a request for images for each basic flows
17:48:55 [dezell]
+.5 to images - very nice, but also nice to have
17:49:04 [Laurent_]
Manu: It should probably be one of the last thing we do
17:49:08 [manu]
Laurent: It would be nice to have a sequence diagram - if it helps, I can send a link.
17:49:10 [CyrilV]
q+
17:49:23 [manu]
ack CyrilV
17:49:30 [dlongley]
+.5 to images, nice to have, but agree should be done last as they are harder to edit (takes time)
17:49:45 [Laurent_]
CyrilV: I've sent basic flows explaining SCT and Bill Payment flows
17:50:03 [Laurent_]
CyrilV: Tell me if those are useful / the kind of things we want to include
17:50:09 [CyrilV]
I volunteer
17:50:40 [Laurent_]
Manu: Looks like it's exactly the kind of flows we want to have
17:51:28 [CyrilV]
+q
17:51:35 [manu]
Here's an example of Requirements: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webpayments/raw-file/default/latest/use-cases/index.html#initiating-a-payment
17:51:48 [Laurent_]
Manu: Every single use cases have requirements, anybody against / for it?
17:52:30 [Laurent_]
dezell: Some requirements were kind of bizarre
17:52:34 [dlongley]
q+
17:53:01 [Laurent_]
Katie: maybe we should hide the requirement piece for now
17:53:23 [manu]
ACTION: Manu to remove the "Requirements" sections and replace them with "Preconditions" and "Postconditions".
17:53:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-66 - Remove the "requirements" sections and replace them with "preconditions" and "postconditions". [on Manu Sporny - due 2015-02-19].
17:53:42 [dlongley]
q-
17:54:12 [dlongley]
+1 to keeping the requirements around, they are very useful for designing solutions; they've distilled out the important elements from the use cases and we don't want to do that work again
17:54:12 [Laurent_]
CyrilV: We have to define the use cases and only then define the requirements
17:54:27 [dlongley]
but they can be hidden/moved elsewhere
17:54:33 [Laurent_]
CyrilV: otherwise we drive to a specific solution
17:55:25 [Laurent_]
dlongley: We can move them somewhere else as long as we keep them somewhere
17:55:33 [dlongley]
q+
17:55:40 [CyrilV]
q-
17:55:50 [manu]
Laurent: I'm fine with requirements being put somewhere else, but having it somewhere else is important. Design goals / requirements maybe.
17:55:59 [manu]
ack dlongley
17:56:40 [Laurent_]
dlongley: We might have some difficulties since some requirements looks like preconditions
17:57:48 [dlongley]
q+
17:58:16 [dezell]
q+
17:58:18 [Laurent_]
dlongley: Goals are different from motivations
17:58:22 [dezell]
ack dlo
17:58:40 [CyrilV]
q+
17:58:49 [manu]
Manu: We may want to add a "Goals" section in the Introductory section?
17:59:27 [manu]
ack dezell
17:59:30 [dezell]
ack dezell
17:59:38 [Laurent_]
dezell: Agree with Dave - we stick with motivations, Goals are in many documents and will be difficult to synchronize
18:00:20 [Laurent_]
CyrilV: I can understand "Design Goals" but not "Goal" standalone - it's too broad
18:01:00 [dlongley]
+1
18:01:31 [manu]
Manu: The group is saying that they don't think a "Goals" section in the "Introduction" section is appropriate at this point in time.
18:01:35 [dezell]
+1
18:01:43 [manu]
Manu: Goals should probably be in the Roadmap document, and only there.
18:02:36 [Zakim]
-Katie_Haritos-Shea
18:02:37 [Zakim]
-manu
18:02:38 [Zakim]
-dlongley
18:02:39 [Zakim]
-dlehn
18:02:39 [Zakim]
-dezell
18:02:43 [Zakim]
-CyrilV
18:02:44 [Zakim]
-Laurent_
18:02:46 [Zakim]
Team_(wpay)16:59Z has ended
18:02:46 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.540.961.aaaa, manu, Davd_Ezell, dezell, dlongley, Katie_Haritos-Shea, dlehn, +33.1.55.01.aabb, Laurent_, +33.6.22.04.aacc, CyrilV
18:03:16 [dlongley]
dlongley has left #wpay
18:05:30 [manu]
Present: David_Ezell, David_Longley, David_Lehn, Laurent, Katie, Cyril, Manu
18:05:34 [manu]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:05:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-wpay-minutes.html manu
18:08:30 [manu]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:08:36 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:08:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-wpay-minutes.html manu
18:09:13 [manu]
Meeting: Web Payments IG - Use Cases Task Force
18:09:36 [manu]
Chair: Manu
18:10:31 [manu]
s/Scribe: Laurent_/Scribe: manu/
18:10:47 [manu]
s/scribenick: Laurent_//
18:11:37 [manu]
s/Laurent: I'll send it use case by use case./scribenick: Laurent_/
18:12:03 [manu]
s/in for review./in for review, I'll send comments in use case by use case/
18:12:03 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:12:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-wpay-minutes.html manu
18:12:51 [manu]
s/charles/Chaals/
18:14:20 [manu]
s/I LL FIX AND COMME BACK//
18:15:02 [manu]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:15:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-wpay-minutes.html manu
18:18:04 [manu]
Scribe: Laurent
18:18:11 [manu]
rrsagent, publish minutes
18:18:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-wpay-minutes.html manu
18:19:18 [manu]
rrsagent, bye
18:19:18 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-wpay-actions.rdf :
18:19:18 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Laurent to perform a full review for the Use Cases FPWD. [1]
18:19:18 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-wpay-irc#T17-44-41
18:19:18 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Chaals to perform a full review for the Use Cases FPWD. [2]
18:19:18 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-wpay-irc#T17-44-49
18:19:18 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Manu to add "basic flow" to each use case as well as nouns (actors) and verbs (actions). [3]
18:19:18 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-wpay-irc#T17-47-12-1
18:19:18 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Manu to remove the "Requirements" sections and replace them with "Preconditions" and "Postconditions". [4]
18:19:18 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-wpay-irc#T17-53-23
18:19:20 [manu]
zakim, bye
18:19:20 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wpay