15:55:26 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:55:26 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-html-a11y-irc
15:55:28 RRSAgent, make logs world
15:55:30 Zakim, this will be 2119
15:55:30 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 55 minutes ago
15:55:31 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:55:31 Date: 12 February 2015
15:55:45 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
15:55:52 +??P5
15:55:59 zakim, ??P5 is me
15:55:59 +janina; got it
15:56:05 agenda?
15:56:14 zakim, clear agenda
15:56:14 agenda cleared
15:56:19 Chair: Janina
15:56:19 agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:56:22 agenda+ Additional agenda?
15:56:25 agenda+ HTML-WG Face to Face -- Sam, Paul
15:56:27 agenda+ Longdesc Status Update -- Judy
15:56:30 agenda+ Media Subteam Update -- John, Shane, Janina
15:56:32 agenda+ Alt Note Status; Shane and Liam
15:56:35 agenda+ Notes Enhancement -- Shane, David
15:56:37 agenda+ The Future of Canvas 2D -- Sam
15:56:40 agenda+ TF Open Actions http://w3.org/wai/pf/html/track
15:56:42 agenda+ Other Business
15:56:45 agenda+ Identify Chair and Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:56:48 agenda+ be done
15:57:16 zakim, who's here?
15:57:16 On the phone I see janina
15:57:18 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Judy, IanPouncey, sivoais, LJWatson, newtron, janina, liam, MarkS, Zakim, joanie, cabanier, trackbot
15:57:35 zakim, next item
15:57:35 agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
15:57:39 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #html-a11y
15:58:25 +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:00:36 JF has joined #html-a11y
16:00:43 +Sam
16:01:19 rubys has joined #html-a11y
16:01:26 regrets: David_MacDonald, Mark_Sadecki
16:01:31 IanPouncey1 has joined #html-a11y
16:01:31 +JF
16:01:57 [2/12/15, 9:18:24 AM] Mark Sadecki: rich, looks like there is some movement on this bug: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=425149
16:01:58 [2/12/15, 9:19:22 AM] Mark Sadecki: and looks like Dominic is looking for some more guidance on what else needs to be done. I am flat out right now. If you can leave a comment and fill him in, that would be great. You have the most historical perspective on this. Would also be great to get Rik C to comment
16:02:19 +Joanmarie_Diggs
16:02:53 +[IPcaller]
16:03:50 zakim, IPcaller is Leonie
16:03:50 +Leonie; got it
16:04:02 zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:04:02 sorry, LJWatson, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]'
16:04:04 ShaneM has joined #html-a11y
16:04:12 +ShaneM
16:04:25 paulc has joined #html-a11y
16:04:29 +Judy
16:04:36 zakim, what is the code?
16:04:36 the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc
16:04:52 ScribeNick: ShaneM
16:05:07 zakim, next item
16:05:07 agendum 2. "Additional agenda?" taken up [from janina]
16:05:25 +[Microsoft]
16:05:32 zakim, [Microsoft] is me
16:05:32 +paulc; got it
16:05:37 No additional items.
16:05:41 zakim, next item
16:05:41 agendum 2 was just opened, ShaneM
16:05:46 zakim, close this item
16:05:46 agendum 2 closed
16:05:47 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:05:47 3. HTML-WG Face to Face -- Sam, Paul [from janina]
16:05:55 zakim, next item
16:05:55 agendum 3. "HTML-WG Face to Face -- Sam, Paul" taken up [from janina]
16:06:12 +[IPcaller]
16:06:25 Zakim, IPcaller is me
16:06:25 +IanPouncey1; got it
16:06:34 paulc: No updates on the f2f status as yet.
16:06:36 +Liam
16:06:50 Zakim, IanPouncey1 is me
16:06:50 +IanPouncey; got it
16:07:38 paulc: HTML will probably meet that week in Redmond. But not certain yet. Not sure what webapps will do,.
16:07:42 zakim, next item
16:07:42 agendum 5. "Media Subteam Update -- John, Shane, Janina" taken up [from janina]
16:08:24 zakim, who's making noise?
16:08:25 zakim, who is noisy?
16:08:36 Judy, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: ShaneM (74%)
16:08:39 janina: Josh Neely and Janina had a conversation earlier this week. Some input. Will look at suggested tweaks next week.
16:08:45 zakim, mute Shane
16:08:45 ShaneM should now be muted
16:08:46 zakim, who is noisy?
16:08:47 LJWatson, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ShaneM (61%)
16:08:57 paulc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Judy (80%), janina (44%), Rich_Schwerdtfeger (4%)
16:09:22 ... no email yet, but will forward to list when it is available.
16:09:37 janina: please take another look through the MAUR to see if it is applicable to WebRTC?
16:09:55 ... I think some of it is applicable even though it is not specifically called out.
16:09:56 q+
16:10:49 ck ju
16:10:56 ack ju
16:11:40 Judy: the MAUR is also applicable to WebVTT. If anyone is interested in that angle and is reviewing please drop Judy a note.
16:11:47 zakim, next item
16:11:47 agendum 6. "Alt Note Status; Shane and Liam" taken up [from janina]
16:12:01 zakim, unmute me
16:12:01 ShaneM should no longer be muted
16:12:03 msg/Judy what would taht entail?
16:12:11 scribenick LJWatson
16:12:30 SM: We've been addressing comments.
16:12:36 s/msg/Judy what would taht entail?
16:12:49 LQ: Next couple of days will be editing the doc.
16:13:29 LW: Fixing first pie chart example, and general restructuring.
16:14:00 s/LW: Fixing first pie chart example, and general restructuring./LQ: Fixing first pie chart example, and general restructuring./
16:14:47 SM: Language needs improving - mix of active and passive voice.
16:14:54 JS: Worth fixing.
16:15:02 SM: Yes, but need to prioritise.
16:15:09 rrsagent, make minutes
16:15:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:15:37 LQ: I'll do an editorial pass.
16:16:02 SM: The doc content is reflected in the HTML5 spec.
16:16:16 PC: Bugs were filed on the spec and changes were proposed and accepted into HTML5.
16:16:50 PC: Is there duplication? Would require investigation, but I thought intent was to move advice into HTML5 because objection was to having guidance in two places.
16:17:01 JS: Think normative should be in spec, informative in the note.
16:17:08 HTML5 document: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/embedded-content-0.html#alt
16:18:07 plh has joined #html-a11y
16:18:09 q+
16:18:19 +Plh
16:18:29 PC: Why are we publishing this separately then?
16:18:32 ack me
16:18:35 q+
16:18:46 JS: My understanding is that there were differences.
16:19:14 JB: WOuld be surprised if the content in both places were still the same.
16:19:51 JS: Worth trying to identify the differences?
16:19:54 JB: Yes.
16:20:52 q+ to talk about duplication
16:21:02 PC: Concerned we could be taking time to publish a note that contains different advice to the spec.
16:21:24 SM: It is definitively a duplicate.
16:21:34 LQ: Agreed.
16:21:48 JB: That may not have been reported to the TF.
16:22:02 SM: I asked this when we first discussed taking this forward.
16:22:11 SM: Steve said then it was a duplicate.
16:22:22 ack ju
16:22:24 adk sha
16:22:26 ack sha
16:22:26 ShaneM, you wanted to talk about duplication
16:22:29 s/JB: Yes./JB: Yes, but I thought we were mainly checking bug status./
16:22:42 PC: Think we should take thi soffline. Shane perhaps you should do the investigation?
16:22:50 ACTION: ShaneM to illustrate the duplications between HTML5 and alt-techniques
16:22:50 Created ACTION-307 - Illustrate the duplications between html5 and alt-techniques [on Shane McCarron - due 2015-02-19].
16:22:50 rrsagent, make minutes
16:22:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:23:31 q+
16:23:58 cyns has joined #html-a11y
16:24:17 in a place where I can't do audio, but montioring irc
16:24:19 JB: There was interest in mapping some parts of this doc, but make this doc more directly navigable to.
16:24:25 q+
16:24:51 JB: The doc was created because of mis-information in the spec originally.
16:25:14 ack ju
16:25:30 ack l
16:25:43 scribenick: ShaneM
16:25:59 LW: Point of practicality it makes no sense to duplicate effort.
16:26:07 zakim, next item
16:26:07 agendum 7. "Notes Enhancement -- Shane, David" taken up [from janina]
16:26:47 SM: Group hasn't settled on a definite recommendation.
16:27:25 s/some parts of this doc, but make this doc more directly navigable to/some parts of this doc more directly to WCAG WG guidance on accessibility, and ensuring that that guidance is directly navigable to from HTML spec./
16:27:46 LQ: Long discussion in Digital Publishing IG. Consensus is emerging about what the pro publishing world wants in terms of notes.
16:27:57 JS: They're compiling use cases and requirements?
16:28:01 LQ: Yes.
16:29:41 LQ: There might be a need for a11y advise once the DPub people do things about rendering.
16:29:45 ... it might take a while.
16:30:21 SM: Separating semantics from rendering is something we've got the dPub people to in their heads.
16:30:42 SM: Think we'll get feedback about semantics before rendering.
16:33:49 janina: lots of traffic about this in the DPub interest group
16:33:55 zakim, next item
16:33:55 agendum 8. "The Future of Canvas 2D -- Sam" taken up [from janina]
16:34:33 richardschwerdtfeger: one defect left before we have two implementations
16:34:43 ... will follow up with Dominic today or tomorrow
16:35:05 ... hit region support. Most features are already in FF. 1 or 2 defects left.
16:35:18 ... in chrome there is quite a way to go. Not sure how long it will take to get it done.
16:35:28 s/one defect/drawfocus: one defect/
16:35:49 SR: Are there any dates about hitregion?
16:36:09 richardschwerdtfeger: Not yet. No work is started on Safari. No work is started in IE as far as I know.
16:36:23 SR: Should we move hitregion to level 2?
16:36:36 richardschwerdtfeger: I don't want to see that, but we don't know how long it will take so maybe.
16:36:42 https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/Canvas_Task_Force/CR-Test#drawFocusIfNeeded_when_a_default_path_is_provided_and_the_associated_fallback_element_is_descendant_of_the_element_with_focus._Scroll_the_window_so_that_the_canvas_moves.
16:37:03 ... if we can get drawfocusifneeded done in time keep it. move hitregion to 2.
16:37:09 https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=425149
16:37:11 richardschwerdtfeger: don't know about that test issue. will check.
16:37:29 SR: Chrome thinks it is fixed, but we are not saying it works.
16:37:44 richardschwerdtfeger: they are not moving an item into view when focus is moved.
16:37:59 q+
16:38:10 SR: There seems to have been discussion within the last 24 hours. Are we seeing when information about when it will be done'
16:38:16 richardschwerdtfeger: not sure yet. need to look.
16:38:34 Judy: If published without hitregion part, how much of an A11Y failure is that for canvas?
16:38:54 ... if we have one and not the other, do we end up with an inaccessible canvas?
16:39:09 richardschwerdtfeger: yes, it makes it fairly inaccessible. magnifiers will not work well.
16:39:27 q?
16:39:32 ack ju
16:39:38 ... hit testing for correlation with what is on the glass with what is underneath is needed for AT.
16:40:02 Judy: for a while we had good interaction about support and progress. Recently little progress. Is that true?
16:40:04 richardschwerdtfeger: yes.
16:40:22 q+
16:40:38 Judy: If 2D goes out, the chance of a refresh being done is pretty slight. hitregion might just get reflected in 3D
16:41:15 ... but some implementors are only going to support level 1. So would this be an a11y issue going forward?
16:41:27 SR: Note there is no 3D. There is level 1 and level 2.
16:41:51 paulc: chairs need to balance interest and urgency. There are people who need a rec because of its implied patent promise.
16:42:00 ... we can't hold it up forever.
16:42:34 ... this was put into WHATWG without Apple's permission. Anyone who has implemented this without a recommendation means they are at risk. They don't know the status of the IPR.
16:42:50 ... so the chairs are trying to address the needs of the broader community.
16:43:13 Judy: It is unfortunate that we have not been able to get the implementation support despite a lot of back and forth for a long time.
16:43:20 janina: what is the likelyhood of level 2?
16:43:36 SR: at the moment there is no one working on level 1.
16:43:39 q?
16:43:44 q?
16:43:53 ack p
16:43:57 paulc: for the last 12 months people concentrated on getting html5 done.
16:44:14 ... several people who were canvas editors have moved on within their companies because it took so long.
16:44:34 ... if we can get level 1 done, we might be able to get people to get excited about level 2.
16:44:44 ... because level 1 is not done, they are waiting before looking at level 2
16:45:15 Judy: Some staff changes. trying to proceed. doesn't really solve the issue, but it is not for lack of trying to get the A11Y aspects covered.
16:45:32 ... so level 2 would be iffy. It is a gamble.
16:45:54 richardschwerdtfeger: is there a reason we can't work on level 2 while level 1 is still being wrapped up?
16:46:09 paulc: other than resources, no. Some work has been done on level 2 already.
16:46:12 q+
16:46:21 richardschwerdtfeger: what sort of resources?
16:46:48 paulc: Judy has mentioned there are staff resources. I have mentioned that people have moved on because of the long delay.
16:47:01 Judy: We need resources for level 1 from the direct implementors.
16:47:06 ack plh
16:47:17 plh: we have two implementations. what is the hold up?
16:47:35 SR: there is at least one test that has not been run. There is a bug that has been filed and has stalled.
16:47:37 s/there are staff resources/there is a gap in staff resources/
16:47:52 plh: is it a critical bug? is it blocking publication?
16:48:02 richardschwerdtfeger: most of hitregion is supported in firefox
16:48:21 SR: there are more tests that have not been run.
16:48:27 q+
16:48:35 janina: they could be in level 2 and point out that there is already support in FF.
16:48:44 SR: yes - they could move to level 2
16:49:08 richardschwerdtfeger: if level 2 only supports hitregion, would we release an update that only includes hitregion support?
16:49:10 q+
16:49:21 SR: yes, if it passes the tests.
16:49:23 ack Judy
16:49:38 Judy: Are there some implementors that will only use level 1 and not move forward to level 2?
16:49:45 SR: I don't think we know that.
16:49:49 plh: We don't know.
16:50:08 ack p
16:50:13 Judy: I had heard that concern in the past. If it is an unfounded concern, then I won't worry about it.
16:50:58 paulc: If A11Y community is concerned about hitregion being missing from level 1, the chairs could ensure a draft of level 2 with hitregion is available at the same time as level 1 is published.
16:51:06 Judy: that would be great
16:51:21 +1 to Paul's suggestion.
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16:51:27 paulc: there's no reason not to get a draft out. We wouldn't know when it would get to Rec though.
16:51:40 q?
16:52:07 SR: Remember that there is only one implementation.
16:52:17 Judy: any idea of the scope for how long?
16:52:35 paulc: well - HTML working group recharters in June, so we will need a schedule by then.
16:52:49 q+
16:53:22 ack ju
16:53:48 Judy: if there is any way to encourage people to pay attention to this critical feature, that would be helpful.
16:54:48 janina: some implementors are working on this hard now.
16:54:53 Judy: Righ?
16:54:57