15:54:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #annotation
15:54:42 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/11-annotation-irc
15:54:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:54:44 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #annotation
15:54:46 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2666
15:54:46 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
15:54:47 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
15:54:47 <trackbot> Date: 11 February 2015
15:55:13 <fjh> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Feb/0062.html
15:55:50 <fjh> fjh has changed the topic to: agenda https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Feb/0062.html  code 2666
15:57:21 <fjh> Regrets+ Paolo_Ciccarese, Bill_Kasdorf, Luc_Moreau, Kristof_Csillag, Davis_Salisbury, Tim_Cole
15:57:48 <fjh> Chair: Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sanderson
15:57:59 <fjh> Present+ Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sanderson
15:58:24 <RayD> RayD has joined #annotation
15:58:38 <fjh> Regrets+ Ivan_Herman
15:59:31 <Zakim> DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM has now started
15:59:32 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
15:59:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
15:59:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see RayD, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Matt_Haas, shepazu, JakeHart, Mitar, dwhly, KevinMarks, MarkS, nickstenn, bigbluehat, rhiaro, oshepherd, stain, trackbot
15:59:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:59:41 <Zakim> +Rayd
15:59:44 <fjh> zakim, ipcaller is me
15:59:44 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
15:59:58 <fjh> Topic: Agenda Review, Scribe Selection
16:00:08 <RayD> present+ Ray_Denenberg
16:00:41 <Zakim> +bigbluehat
16:00:55 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
16:01:11 <fjh> Present+ Benjamin_Young, Doug_Schepers
16:01:17 <Zakim> +Matt_Haas
16:01:23 <Matt_Haas> Present +Matt_Haas
16:01:46 <bjdmeest> bjdmeest has joined #annotation
16:02:13 <Zakim> +[Ugent]
16:02:20 <bjdmeest> zakim, Ugent is me
16:02:20 <Zakim> +bjdmeest; got it
16:02:52 <bigbluehat> other Benjamin :)
16:02:57 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben_De_Meester
16:04:04 <bjdmeest> I will scribe
16:04:19 <fjh> ScribeNick: bjdmeest
16:04:25 <fjh> s/I will scribe//
16:05:33 <Zakim> + +1.650.274.aaaa
16:05:33 <fjh> Topic: Minutes Approval
16:05:50 <fjh> RESOLUTION: 4th February 2015 minutes are approved: http://www.w3.org/2015/02/04-annotation-minutes.html
16:05:58 <fjh> Topic: Use Cases
16:06:21 <bjdmeest> bigbluehat: not that much activity
16:06:36 <Jacob> Jacob has joined #annotation
16:06:37 <fjh> Topic: Protocol
16:06:46 <Jacob> present+ Jacob_Jett
16:06:55 <dwhly> zakim, aaaa is dwhly
16:06:56 <Zakim> +dwhly; got it
16:06:59 <fjh> Continued Discussion of http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/protocol/wd/
16:07:03 <bjdmeest> fjh: draft, there has been discussion, anything wants to say anything specific?
16:07:05 <Zakim> +azaroth
16:07:13 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:07:15 <dwhly> q+
16:07:33 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
16:07:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see fjh, Rayd, bigbluehat, Doug_Schepers, Matt_Haas, bjdmeest, dwhly, azaroth, [IPcaller]
16:07:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see Jacob, bjdmeest, RayD, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Matt_Haas, shepazu, JakeHart, Mitar, dwhly, KevinMarks, MarkS, nickstenn, bigbluehat, rhiaro, oshepherd, stain, trackbot
16:07:47 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #annotation
16:07:54 <bjdmeest> dwhly: could we discuss getting annotator on the other draft?
16:08:13 <bjdmeest> fjh: that is underway
16:08:21 <bjdmeest> shepazu: we can do that
16:08:29 <bjdmeest> ... we need the infrastructure set up
16:08:35 <bjdmeest> ... on webplatform.org
16:08:36 <takeshi> takeshi has joined #annotation
16:08:48 <bjdmeest> ... I will get the annotation system put in place there
16:09:13 <fjh> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Feb/0040.html
16:09:25 <bjdmeest> fjh: [about protocol] Nick had some issues
16:09:32 <Kyrce> Kyrce has joined #annotation
16:09:32 <bjdmeest> ... about a lot of annotations
16:09:42 <fjh> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Feb/0067.html
16:10:04 <bjdmeest> ... LDP's minimal container could solve this issue
16:10:39 <bjdmeest> ... also another discussion about containers and their types
16:10:45 <bjdmeest> ... matching the rdf types and so on
16:11:12 <Zakim> +Kyrce
16:12:06 <bjdmeest> fjh: [about search] is that something we have to figure out?
16:12:17 <bjdmeest> azaroth: I am not aware of a standard search pattern
16:12:29 <bjdmeest> ... that is less complex than SPARQL
16:12:52 <bjdmeest> ... any ideas about other ways?
16:12:57 <bjdmeest> q+
16:13:16 <dwhly> q-
16:13:45 <fjh> ack bjdmeest
16:13:46 <bjdmeest> http://linkeddatafragments.org/
16:13:57 <fjh> bjdmeest: we have linked data fragments, bascically SPARQL interface
16:14:06 <fjh> bjdmeest: allows specific data dumps
16:14:20 <fjh> bjdmeest: can index specific parts to ease querying
16:14:38 <fjh> bjdmeest: now have lightweight server, with more work on server, but could change this
16:14:49 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:15:11 <fjh> s/bascically/basically/
16:15:12 <azaroth> azaroth previously:  Important to understand the differences between bulk / web clients to see how the protocol needs to support both
16:15:24 <tbdinesh> tbdinesh has joined #annotation
16:16:07 <bjdmeest> azaroth: [about LDP containers] 3 types:
16:16:20 <bjdmeest> ... ??? contain: endpoint
16:16:34 <tbdinesh> Zakim: ipnumber is me
16:16:35 <bjdmeest> ... direct container: basic container with one piece of additional functionality
16:16:50 <tbdinesh> Zakim, ipnumber is me
16:16:50 <Zakim> sorry, tbdinesh, I do not recognize a party named 'ipnumber'
16:17:01 <bjdmeest> ... adding a resource creates link from resource to the created object
16:17:18 <bjdmeest> ... [example]
16:17:28 <bjdmeest> ...third type: indirect container
16:17:36 <bjdmeest> ... also looks at RDF that gets posted
16:17:59 <bjdmeest> ... new created results: picks a predefined relation, uses that to create a new link
16:18:01 <bjdmeest> ... eg
16:18:08 <bjdmeest> ... if you create a new body
16:18:16 <bjdmeest> ... body owl:sameAs url:X
16:18:35 <bjdmeest> ... system creates annotation hasBody url:X
16:18:52 <bjdmeest> ... currently we use basic containers for the top-level ones
16:19:25 <bjdmeest> fjh: so direct containers creates more triples
16:19:45 <bjdmeest> azaroth: triples aren't extra, system creates them for you
16:19:58 <bjdmeest> ... use case is: if you want a non-rdf resource as part of the annotation
16:20:07 <bjdmeest> ... (and image has no URI)
16:20:34 <bjdmeest> ... then you would have to create a bodyless annotation, as the annotation has no URI
16:20:47 <bjdmeest> ... then publish the image, and update the annotation
16:20:56 <bjdmeest> ... direct container automates the last step
16:22:11 <bjdmeest> fjh: we are not going to look at containers, mostly
16:22:17 <bjdmeest> ... more a way of interacting
16:22:26 <bjdmeest> ... paging will help
16:22:54 <bjdmeest> ... not something a client needs to do
16:23:12 <fjh> s/fjh/azaroth/
16:23:16 <fjh> s/fjh/azaroth/
16:23:35 <bjdmeest> azaroth:we need to easily filter annotations
16:23:51 <bjdmeest> ... [will help scaling]
16:24:03 <shepazu> q+
16:24:11 <fjh> azaroth: those that have a given target etc
16:24:16 <fjh> ack shepazu
16:24:18 <bjdmeest> ... we need to see how current clients work with current servers
16:24:39 <bjdmeest> shepazu: how tightly bound are our deliverables?
16:25:10 <bjdmeest> ... e.g. twitter using the datamodel, but not change the infrastructure to LDP
16:25:32 <bjdmeest> ... those tweets should still be annotations
16:26:19 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
16:26:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see fjh, Rayd, bigbluehat, Doug_Schepers, Matt_Haas, bjdmeest, dwhly, azaroth, [IPcaller], Kyrce, [IPcaller.a]
16:26:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see tbdinesh, Kyrce, takeshi, azaroth, Jacob, bjdmeest, RayD, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Matt_Haas, shepazu, JakeHart, Mitar, dwhly, KevinMarks, MarkS, nickstenn, bigbluehat,
16:26:22 <Zakim> ... rhiaro, oshepherd, stain, trackbot
16:26:44 <bjdmeest> ... people might be less inclined to adopt this if the protocol is very strict
16:26:54 <dwhly> Present+ Dan_Whaley
16:27:02 <tbdinesh> Zakim, ipcaller is me
16:27:02 <Zakim> +tbdinesh; got it
16:27:29 <bjdmeest> azaroth: I don't see them being tightly bound (the deliverables)
16:27:34 <tbdinesh> Present+ TB_Dinesh
16:27:55 <bjdmeest> ... If you already have some API, exposing annotations in the correct model will improve interoperability
16:28:07 <bjdmeest> ... publishing in the correct format would be a big win already
16:28:51 <bjdmeest> ... if you implement the protocol
16:29:03 <bjdmeest> ... then we need to be more specific about the interactions
16:29:20 <bjdmeest> ... so avoid twitter-specific APIs (as we have now)
16:29:41 <bjdmeest> fjh: so: protocol can be useful,  but you don't need it
16:29:45 <shepazu> q+
16:30:10 <bjdmeest> ... doing the protocol without the datamodel would not make a lot of sense
16:30:35 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #annotation
16:30:48 <bjdmeest> shepazu: would there be something like: you need to implement this protocol to publish this datamodel?
16:30:55 <bjdmeest> ... that would be a bad idea
16:31:07 <bjdmeest> ... the minimum viable protocol: does it need to be LDP?
16:31:32 <bjdmeest> ... is there something more abstract
16:31:38 <bjdmeest> ... and still be interoperable?
16:31:58 <bjdmeest> ... [LDP] is a very specific solution for a more general problem
16:32:05 <bjdmeest> ... especially as a transitional thing
16:33:00 <azaroth_> azaroth_ has joined #annotation
16:33:26 <bjdmeest> azaroth: agree that current implementations may not change to the protocol we specify
16:33:45 <bjdmeest> ... but it may be good to suggest a current specific system
16:34:06 <bjdmeest> ... we could suggest and abstract API
16:34:31 <bjdmeest> ... Community group Hydra is about describing hypermedia API using JSON-LD
16:35:05 <davis_salisbury> davis_salisbury has joined #annotation
16:35:07 <bjdmeest> ... Hydra is kinda like WSDL to SOAP
16:35:09 <fjh> Rob notes that me might consider Hydra, in some ways like WSDL, if we want to be more abstract
16:35:13 <bigbluehat> Hydra Community Group URL: http://www.hydra-cg.com/
16:35:42 <Zakim> +David_Salisbury
16:36:04 <fjh> Present+ David_Salisbury
16:36:14 <bjdmeest> ... to move forward: it would be good to have a thickened protocol
16:36:22 <bjdmeest> ... having an alternative would be good
16:36:34 <fjh> q+
16:36:41 <bjdmeest> ... to see what would be acceptable, and not too specific
16:36:45 <shepazu> q-
16:36:45 <fjh> ack shepazu
16:37:24 <bjdmeest> fjh: concern is real, but should start something completely different because of that?
16:37:30 <bjdmeest> ... at some point, you need details
16:38:27 <bjdmeest> azaroth: so: we should write out the spec and see what the reactions are
16:38:49 <bjdmeest> ... next steps:
16:39:17 <bjdmeest> 1: prototype implementation, and report pain points and complex interactions
16:39:35 <bjdmeest> ... e.g. hypothesis or annotator group to implement?
16:40:19 <bjdmeest> 2: look at container types
16:40:37 <bjdmeest> ... are these necessary? or could we provide discovery mechanisms of where these containers could live?
16:40:58 <bjdmeest> ... e.g.: creating a binary resource as the body might be out of scope of the protocol?
16:41:40 <bjdmeest> ... e.g. restrict the fact that you cannot create annotations of offline resources
16:42:29 <bjdmeest> azaroth: I will try to build a very quick implementation, someone else would also be good
16:42:42 <bjdmeest> ... so, don't wait for me
16:42:59 <fjh> Topic: F2F
16:43:14 <bjdmeest> fjh: decision: 26 april
16:43:22 <fjh> F2F 22 April, in conjunction 23, 24 April, SF
16:43:26 <bjdmeest> ... in conjunction with iAnnotate (23, 24 april)
16:43:46 <RayD> q+
16:44:15 <bjdmeest> dwhly: I have made some preliminary reservations
16:44:19 <bjdmeest> ... about 11 rooms
16:44:20 <fjh> RESOLUTION; F2F is 22 April in SF, in conjunction with iAnnotate 23, 24 April
16:44:31 <bjdmeest> ... if you want a place to stay: please let me know
16:44:42 <bjdmeest> ... let us know if you want help with the hotel
16:45:02 <fjh> ack fjh
16:45:05 <fjh> ack RayD
16:45:25 <dwhly> Fort Mason Center
16:45:29 <dwhly> Golden Gate Room
16:45:36 <bjdmeest> RayD: logistical info? location F2F and conference?
16:45:43 <dwhly> For both
16:46:11 <fjh> action: fjh to post F2F message
16:46:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-4 - Post f2f message [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2015-02-18].
16:46:41 <bjdmeest> dwhly: they are all in the same place
16:46:44 <fjh> Topic: Other WGs
16:46:48 <dwhly> q+
16:46:53 <fjh> ack dwhly
16:47:05 <bjdmeest> dwhly: we are almost at capacity for iAnnotate
16:47:17 <bjdmeest> ... so iAnnotate.org and register
16:47:34 <shepazu> http://iannotate.org/2015/
16:48:03 <bjdmeest> azaroth: other WGs their discussion, and connection them with our work
16:48:15 <bjdmeest> ... [LDP] all in favor of having an event
16:49:21 <bjdmeest> ... they were very keen on having feedback on LDP
16:49:28 <bjdmeest> ... but no event planned yet
16:49:58 <bjdmeest> ... there is talk of having an LDP 1.1
16:50:06 <bjdmeest> ... so comments are welcome
16:50:42 <bjdmeest> ... so our discussion about protocol could be good feedback for LDP
16:50:58 <bjdmeest> ... [Social Web]
16:51:14 <bjdmeest> ... discussions about extend of requirement of JSON-LD
16:51:23 <bjdmeest> ... or output being compatible with JSON-LD
16:51:37 <bjdmeest> .. some interactions have been about RDF subclassing
16:51:48 <bjdmeest> ... should that be part of Social or not?
16:51:54 <bjdmeest> ... we have same concerns
16:52:04 <bjdmeest> ... if we need reasoning, we loose 99% of our adopters
16:52:20 <bjdmeest> ... is there something compatible, but does not need RDF savvies?
16:52:57 <bjdmeest> ... good discussions happening there, we should follow those, and have the same discussions
16:53:47 <bjdmeest> ... [DPUB IG] discussion about footnotes
16:53:51 <bjdmeest> ... and marginalia
16:53:59 <shepazu> Footnotes: http://davidmacd.com/blog/html51-footnotes.html
16:54:02 <bjdmeest> ... and make that more convenient for website creators
16:54:14 <bjdmeest> ... e.g., using a specific HTML element
16:54:45 <shepazu> q+
16:54:54 <bjdmeest> ... request: is this something to be taken up by their a11y workgroup, or by us?
16:55:15 <bjdmeest> ... doug and I believe this falls under HTML serialization of annotations
16:55:33 <azaroth_> ack shepazu
16:56:07 <bjdmeest> shepazu: blogpost: perspective of making HTML-docs more accessible
16:56:19 <bjdmeest> ... Word is very accessible using footnotes
17:05:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #annotation
17:05:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/11-annotation-irc
17:05:56 <fjh> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/11-annotation-minutes.html fjh
17:06:40 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #annotation
17:07:59 <fjh> rrsagent, make minutes public
17:07:59 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', fjh.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:08:12 <fjh> rrsagent, public minutes
17:08:12 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'public minutes', fjh.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:09:07 <fjh> rrsagent, make logs world-visible
17:09:14 <fjh> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:09:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/11-annotation-minutes.html fjh
17:10:29 <fjh> Present+ Kyrce_Swenson
17:10:52 <fjh> s/other Benjamin :)//
17:11:17 <fjh> s/much activity/much activity on list, we should wait for Paolo next week/
17:11:47 <fjh> s/UNKNOWN_SPEAKER/azaroth/
17:12:15 <fjh> Topic: Adjourn
17:12:20 <fjh> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:12:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/11-annotation-minutes.html fjh
17:12:53 <fjh_> fjh_ has joined #annotation
17:13:31 <fjh_> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:13:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/11-annotation-minutes.html fjh_
17:13:31 <fjh_> zakim, who is here?
17:13:31 <Zakim> apparently DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM has ended, fjh_
17:13:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see fjh_, azaroth, RRSAgent, davis_salisbury, tbdinesh, Kyrce, RayD, Zakim, fjh, shepazu, JakeHart, Mitar, dwhly, KevinMarks, MarkS, nickstenn, bigbluehat, rhiaro,
17:13:33 <Zakim> ... oshepherd, stain, trackbot
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