IRC log of annotation on 2015-02-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:54:42 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #annotation
15:54:42 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/11-annotation-irc
15:54:44 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:54:44 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #annotation
15:54:46 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2666
15:54:46 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
15:54:47 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
15:54:47 [trackbot]
Date: 11 February 2015
15:55:13 [fjh]
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Feb/0062.html
15:55:50 [fjh]
fjh has changed the topic to: agenda https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Feb/0062.html code 2666
15:57:21 [fjh]
Regrets+ Paolo_Ciccarese, Bill_Kasdorf, Luc_Moreau, Kristof_Csillag, Davis_Salisbury, Tim_Cole
15:57:48 [fjh]
Chair: Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sanderson
15:57:59 [fjh]
Present+ Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sanderson
15:58:24 [RayD]
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15:58:38 [fjh]
Regrets+ Ivan_Herman
15:59:31 [Zakim]
DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM has now started
15:59:32 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
15:59:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see no one
15:59:33 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RayD, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Matt_Haas, shepazu, JakeHart, Mitar, dwhly, KevinMarks, MarkS, nickstenn, bigbluehat, rhiaro, oshepherd, stain, trackbot
15:59:38 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:59:41 [Zakim]
+Rayd
15:59:44 [fjh]
zakim, ipcaller is me
15:59:44 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
15:59:58 [fjh]
Topic: Agenda Review, Scribe Selection
16:00:08 [RayD]
present+ Ray_Denenberg
16:00:41 [Zakim]
+bigbluehat
16:00:55 [Zakim]
+Doug_Schepers
16:01:11 [fjh]
Present+ Benjamin_Young, Doug_Schepers
16:01:17 [Zakim]
+Matt_Haas
16:01:23 [Matt_Haas]
Present +Matt_Haas
16:01:46 [bjdmeest]
bjdmeest has joined #annotation
16:02:13 [Zakim]
+[Ugent]
16:02:20 [bjdmeest]
zakim, Ugent is me
16:02:20 [Zakim]
+bjdmeest; got it
16:02:52 [bigbluehat]
other Benjamin :)
16:02:57 [bjdmeest]
Present+ Ben_De_Meester
16:04:04 [bjdmeest]
I will scribe
16:04:19 [fjh]
ScribeNick: bjdmeest
16:04:25 [fjh]
s/I will scribe//
16:05:33 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.274.aaaa
16:05:33 [fjh]
Topic: Minutes Approval
16:05:50 [fjh]
RESOLUTION: 4th February 2015 minutes are approved: http://www.w3.org/2015/02/04-annotation-minutes.html
16:05:58 [fjh]
Topic: Use Cases
16:06:21 [bjdmeest]
bigbluehat: not that much activity
16:06:36 [Jacob]
Jacob has joined #annotation
16:06:37 [fjh]
Topic: Protocol
16:06:46 [Jacob]
present+ Jacob_Jett
16:06:55 [dwhly]
zakim, aaaa is dwhly
16:06:56 [Zakim]
+dwhly; got it
16:06:59 [fjh]
Continued Discussion of http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/protocol/wd/
16:07:03 [bjdmeest]
fjh: draft, there has been discussion, anything wants to say anything specific?
16:07:05 [Zakim]
+azaroth
16:07:13 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:07:15 [dwhly]
q+
16:07:33 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
16:07:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see fjh, Rayd, bigbluehat, Doug_Schepers, Matt_Haas, bjdmeest, dwhly, azaroth, [IPcaller]
16:07:36 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Jacob, bjdmeest, RayD, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Matt_Haas, shepazu, JakeHart, Mitar, dwhly, KevinMarks, MarkS, nickstenn, bigbluehat, rhiaro, oshepherd, stain, trackbot
16:07:47 [azaroth]
azaroth has joined #annotation
16:07:54 [bjdmeest]
dwhly: could we discuss getting annotator on the other draft?
16:08:13 [bjdmeest]
fjh: that is underway
16:08:21 [bjdmeest]
shepazu: we can do that
16:08:29 [bjdmeest]
... we need the infrastructure set up
16:08:35 [bjdmeest]
... on webplatform.org
16:08:36 [takeshi]
takeshi has joined #annotation
16:08:48 [bjdmeest]
... I will get the annotation system put in place there
16:09:13 [fjh]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Feb/0040.html
16:09:25 [bjdmeest]
fjh: [about protocol] Nick had some issues
16:09:32 [Kyrce]
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16:09:32 [bjdmeest]
... about a lot of annotations
16:09:42 [fjh]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Feb/0067.html
16:10:04 [bjdmeest]
... LDP's minimal container could solve this issue
16:10:39 [bjdmeest]
... also another discussion about containers and their types
16:10:45 [bjdmeest]
... matching the rdf types and so on
16:11:12 [Zakim]
+Kyrce
16:12:06 [bjdmeest]
fjh: [about search] is that something we have to figure out?
16:12:17 [bjdmeest]
azaroth: I am not aware of a standard search pattern
16:12:29 [bjdmeest]
... that is less complex than SPARQL
16:12:52 [bjdmeest]
... any ideas about other ways?
16:12:57 [bjdmeest]
q+
16:13:16 [dwhly]
q-
16:13:45 [fjh]
ack bjdmeest
16:13:46 [bjdmeest]
http://linkeddatafragments.org/
16:13:57 [fjh]
bjdmeest: we have linked data fragments, bascically SPARQL interface
16:14:06 [fjh]
bjdmeest: allows specific data dumps
16:14:20 [fjh]
bjdmeest: can index specific parts to ease querying
16:14:38 [fjh]
bjdmeest: now have lightweight server, with more work on server, but could change this
16:14:49 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller.a]
16:15:11 [fjh]
s/bascically/basically/
16:15:12 [azaroth]
azaroth previously: Important to understand the differences between bulk / web clients to see how the protocol needs to support both
16:15:24 [tbdinesh]
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16:16:07 [bjdmeest]
azaroth: [about LDP containers] 3 types:
16:16:20 [bjdmeest]
... ??? contain: endpoint
16:16:34 [tbdinesh]
Zakim: ipnumber is me
16:16:35 [bjdmeest]
... direct container: basic container with one piece of additional functionality
16:16:50 [tbdinesh]
Zakim, ipnumber is me
16:16:50 [Zakim]
sorry, tbdinesh, I do not recognize a party named 'ipnumber'
16:17:01 [bjdmeest]
... adding a resource creates link from resource to the created object
16:17:18 [bjdmeest]
... [example]
16:17:28 [bjdmeest]
...third type: indirect container
16:17:36 [bjdmeest]
... also looks at RDF that gets posted
16:17:59 [bjdmeest]
... new created results: picks a predefined relation, uses that to create a new link
16:18:01 [bjdmeest]
... eg
16:18:08 [bjdmeest]
... if you create a new body
16:18:16 [bjdmeest]
... body owl:sameAs url:X
16:18:35 [bjdmeest]
... system creates annotation hasBody url:X
16:18:52 [bjdmeest]
... currently we use basic containers for the top-level ones
16:19:25 [bjdmeest]
fjh: so direct containers creates more triples
16:19:45 [bjdmeest]
azaroth: triples aren't extra, system creates them for you
16:19:58 [bjdmeest]
... use case is: if you want a non-rdf resource as part of the annotation
16:20:07 [bjdmeest]
... (and image has no URI)
16:20:34 [bjdmeest]
... then you would have to create a bodyless annotation, as the annotation has no URI
16:20:47 [bjdmeest]
... then publish the image, and update the annotation
16:20:56 [bjdmeest]
... direct container automates the last step
16:22:11 [bjdmeest]
fjh: we are not going to look at containers, mostly
16:22:17 [bjdmeest]
... more a way of interacting
16:22:26 [bjdmeest]
... paging will help
16:22:54 [bjdmeest]
... not something a client needs to do
16:23:12 [fjh]
s/fjh/azaroth/
16:23:16 [fjh]
s/fjh/azaroth/
16:23:35 [bjdmeest]
azaroth:we need to easily filter annotations
16:23:51 [bjdmeest]
... [will help scaling]
16:24:03 [shepazu]
q+
16:24:11 [fjh]
azaroth: those that have a given target etc
16:24:16 [fjh]
ack shepazu
16:24:18 [bjdmeest]
... we need to see how current clients work with current servers
16:24:39 [bjdmeest]
shepazu: how tightly bound are our deliverables?
16:25:10 [bjdmeest]
... e.g. twitter using the datamodel, but not change the infrastructure to LDP
16:25:32 [bjdmeest]
... those tweets should still be annotations
16:26:19 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
16:26:19 [Zakim]
On the phone I see fjh, Rayd, bigbluehat, Doug_Schepers, Matt_Haas, bjdmeest, dwhly, azaroth, [IPcaller], Kyrce, [IPcaller.a]
16:26:22 [Zakim]
On IRC I see tbdinesh, Kyrce, takeshi, azaroth, Jacob, bjdmeest, RayD, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Matt_Haas, shepazu, JakeHart, Mitar, dwhly, KevinMarks, MarkS, nickstenn, bigbluehat,
16:26:22 [Zakim]
... rhiaro, oshepherd, stain, trackbot
16:26:44 [bjdmeest]
... people might be less inclined to adopt this if the protocol is very strict
16:26:54 [dwhly]
Present+ Dan_Whaley
16:27:02 [tbdinesh]
Zakim, ipcaller is me
16:27:02 [Zakim]
+tbdinesh; got it
16:27:29 [bjdmeest]
azaroth: I don't see them being tightly bound (the deliverables)
16:27:34 [tbdinesh]
Present+ TB_Dinesh
16:27:55 [bjdmeest]
... If you already have some API, exposing annotations in the correct model will improve interoperability
16:28:07 [bjdmeest]
... publishing in the correct format would be a big win already
16:28:51 [bjdmeest]
... if you implement the protocol
16:29:03 [bjdmeest]
... then we need to be more specific about the interactions
16:29:20 [bjdmeest]
... so avoid twitter-specific APIs (as we have now)
16:29:41 [bjdmeest]
fjh: so: protocol can be useful, but you don't need it
16:29:45 [shepazu]
q+
16:30:10 [bjdmeest]
... doing the protocol without the datamodel would not make a lot of sense
16:30:35 [azaroth]
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16:30:48 [bjdmeest]
shepazu: would there be something like: you need to implement this protocol to publish this datamodel?
16:30:55 [bjdmeest]
... that would be a bad idea
16:31:07 [bjdmeest]
... the minimum viable protocol: does it need to be LDP?
16:31:32 [bjdmeest]
... is there something more abstract
16:31:38 [bjdmeest]
... and still be interoperable?
16:31:58 [bjdmeest]
... [LDP] is a very specific solution for a more general problem
16:32:05 [bjdmeest]
... especially as a transitional thing
16:33:00 [azaroth_]
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16:33:26 [bjdmeest]
azaroth: agree that current implementations may not change to the protocol we specify
16:33:45 [bjdmeest]
... but it may be good to suggest a current specific system
16:34:06 [bjdmeest]
... we could suggest and abstract API
16:34:31 [bjdmeest]
... Community group Hydra is about describing hypermedia API using JSON-LD
16:35:05 [davis_salisbury]
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16:35:07 [bjdmeest]
... Hydra is kinda like WSDL to SOAP
16:35:09 [fjh]
Rob notes that me might consider Hydra, in some ways like WSDL, if we want to be more abstract
16:35:13 [bigbluehat]
Hydra Community Group URL: http://www.hydra-cg.com/
16:35:42 [Zakim]
+David_Salisbury
16:36:04 [fjh]
Present+ David_Salisbury
16:36:14 [bjdmeest]
... to move forward: it would be good to have a thickened protocol
16:36:22 [bjdmeest]
... having an alternative would be good
16:36:34 [fjh]
q+
16:36:41 [bjdmeest]
... to see what would be acceptable, and not too specific
16:36:45 [shepazu]
q-
16:36:45 [fjh]
ack shepazu
16:37:24 [bjdmeest]
fjh: concern is real, but should start something completely different because of that?
16:37:30 [bjdmeest]
... at some point, you need details
16:38:27 [bjdmeest]
azaroth: so: we should write out the spec and see what the reactions are
16:38:49 [bjdmeest]
... next steps:
16:39:17 [bjdmeest]
1: prototype implementation, and report pain points and complex interactions
16:39:35 [bjdmeest]
... e.g. hypothesis or annotator group to implement?
16:40:19 [bjdmeest]
2: look at container types
16:40:37 [bjdmeest]
... are these necessary? or could we provide discovery mechanisms of where these containers could live?
16:40:58 [bjdmeest]
... e.g.: creating a binary resource as the body might be out of scope of the protocol?
16:41:40 [bjdmeest]
... e.g. restrict the fact that you cannot create annotations of offline resources
16:42:29 [bjdmeest]
azaroth: I will try to build a very quick implementation, someone else would also be good
16:42:42 [bjdmeest]
... so, don't wait for me
16:42:59 [fjh]
Topic: F2F
16:43:14 [bjdmeest]
fjh: decision: 26 april
16:43:22 [fjh]
F2F 22 April, in conjunction 23, 24 April, SF
16:43:26 [bjdmeest]
... in conjunction with iAnnotate (23, 24 april)
16:43:46 [RayD]
q+
16:44:15 [bjdmeest]
dwhly: I have made some preliminary reservations
16:44:19 [bjdmeest]
... about 11 rooms
16:44:20 [fjh]
RESOLUTION; F2F is 22 April in SF, in conjunction with iAnnotate 23, 24 April
16:44:31 [bjdmeest]
... if you want a place to stay: please let me know
16:44:42 [bjdmeest]
... let us know if you want help with the hotel
16:45:02 [fjh]
ack fjh
16:45:05 [fjh]
ack RayD
16:45:25 [dwhly]
Fort Mason Center
16:45:29 [dwhly]
Golden Gate Room
16:45:36 [bjdmeest]
RayD: logistical info? location F2F and conference?
16:45:43 [dwhly]
For both
16:46:11 [fjh]
action: fjh to post F2F message
16:46:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-4 - Post f2f message [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2015-02-18].
16:46:41 [bjdmeest]
dwhly: they are all in the same place
16:46:44 [fjh]
Topic: Other WGs
16:46:48 [dwhly]
q+
16:46:53 [fjh]
ack dwhly
16:47:05 [bjdmeest]
dwhly: we are almost at capacity for iAnnotate
16:47:17 [bjdmeest]
... so iAnnotate.org and register
16:47:34 [shepazu]
http://iannotate.org/2015/
16:48:03 [bjdmeest]
azaroth: other WGs their discussion, and connection them with our work
16:48:15 [bjdmeest]
... [LDP] all in favor of having an event
16:49:21 [bjdmeest]
... they were very keen on having feedback on LDP
16:49:28 [bjdmeest]
... but no event planned yet
16:49:58 [bjdmeest]
... there is talk of having an LDP 1.1
16:50:06 [bjdmeest]
... so comments are welcome
16:50:42 [bjdmeest]
... so our discussion about protocol could be good feedback for LDP
16:50:58 [bjdmeest]
... [Social Web]
16:51:14 [bjdmeest]
... discussions about extend of requirement of JSON-LD
16:51:23 [bjdmeest]
... or output being compatible with JSON-LD
16:51:37 [bjdmeest]
.. some interactions have been about RDF subclassing
16:51:48 [bjdmeest]
... should that be part of Social or not?
16:51:54 [bjdmeest]
... we have same concerns
16:52:04 [bjdmeest]
... if we need reasoning, we loose 99% of our adopters
16:52:20 [bjdmeest]
... is there something compatible, but does not need RDF savvies?
16:52:57 [bjdmeest]
... good discussions happening there, we should follow those, and have the same discussions
16:53:47 [bjdmeest]
... [DPUB IG] discussion about footnotes
16:53:51 [bjdmeest]
... and marginalia
16:53:59 [shepazu]
Footnotes: http://davidmacd.com/blog/html51-footnotes.html
16:54:02 [bjdmeest]
... and make that more convenient for website creators
16:54:14 [bjdmeest]
... e.g., using a specific HTML element
16:54:45 [shepazu]
q+
16:54:54 [bjdmeest]
... request: is this something to be taken up by their a11y workgroup, or by us?
16:55:15 [bjdmeest]
... doug and I believe this falls under HTML serialization of annotations
16:55:33 [azaroth_]
ack shepazu
16:56:07 [bjdmeest]
shepazu: blogpost: perspective of making HTML-docs more accessible
16:56:19 [bjdmeest]
... Word is very accessible using footnotes
17:05:46 [RRSAgent]
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17:05:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/11-annotation-irc
17:05:56 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
17:05:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/11-annotation-minutes.html fjh
17:06:40 [azaroth]
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17:07:59 [fjh]
rrsagent, make minutes public
17:07:59 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', fjh. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:08:12 [fjh]
rrsagent, public minutes
17:08:12 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'public minutes', fjh. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:09:07 [fjh]
rrsagent, make logs world-visible
17:09:14 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
17:09:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/11-annotation-minutes.html fjh
17:10:29 [fjh]
Present+ Kyrce_Swenson
17:10:52 [fjh]
s/other Benjamin :)//
17:11:17 [fjh]
s/much activity/much activity on list, we should wait for Paolo next week/
17:11:47 [fjh]
s/UNKNOWN_SPEAKER/azaroth/
17:12:15 [fjh]
Topic: Adjourn
17:12:20 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
17:12:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/11-annotation-minutes.html fjh
17:12:53 [fjh_]
fjh_ has joined #annotation
17:13:31 [fjh_]
rrsagent, generate minutes
17:13:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/11-annotation-minutes.html fjh_
17:13:31 [fjh_]
zakim, who is here?
17:13:31 [Zakim]
apparently DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM has ended, fjh_
17:13:33 [Zakim]
On IRC I see fjh_, azaroth, RRSAgent, davis_salisbury, tbdinesh, Kyrce, RayD, Zakim, fjh, shepazu, JakeHart, Mitar, dwhly, KevinMarks, MarkS, nickstenn, bigbluehat, rhiaro,
17:13:33 [Zakim]
... oshepherd, stain, trackbot
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