IRC log of forms on 2014-12-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:58:14 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/03-forms-irc
15:58:16 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:58:16 [Zakim]
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15:58:18 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
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ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
15:58:19 [trackbot]
Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
15:58:19 [trackbot]
Date: 03 December 2014
15:58:38 [Steven]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2014Dec/0001
15:58:47 [Steven]
Steven has changed the topic to: AgendaL: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2014Dec/0001
15:58:53 [Steven]
Chair: Steven
15:58:57 [Steven]
Regrets: Nick
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16:00:17 [ebruchez]
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16:00:34 [Zakim]
IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
16:00:44 [Zakim]
+??P35
16:00:49 [Steven]
zakim, I am ?
16:00:49 [Zakim]
+Steven; got it
16:01:04 [Zakim]
+pfennell
16:03:16 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:03:17 [alain]
Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
16:03:17 [Zakim]
ok, alain, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
16:04:18 [pfennell]
The UK Government will be using XForms for the Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG).
16:04:23 [Zakim]
+ebruchez
16:05:48 [Steven]
Topic: Net week's call (regrets from Steven, see next Topic)
16:05:48 [Steven]
Topic: Net week's call (regrets from Steven, see next Topic)
16:05:48 [Steven]
Topic: Net week's call (regrets from Steven, see next Topic)
16:05:48 [Steven]
Topic: Net week's call (regrets from Steven, see next Topic)
16:05:48 [Steven]
Topic: Net week's call (regrets from Steven, see next Topic)
16:05:49 [Steven]
Topic: Net week's call (regrets from Steven, see next Topic)
16:05:49 [Steven]
Topic: Net week's call (regrets from Steven, see next Topic)
16:05:49 [Steven]
Topic: Net week's call (regrets from Steven, see next Topic)
16:05:49 [Steven]
Topic: Net week's call (regrets from Steven, see next Topic)
16:05:49 [Steven]
Topic: Net week's call (regrets from Steven, see next Topic)
16:05:49 [Steven]
Topic: Net week's call (regrets from Steven, see next Topic)
16:06:21 [Steven]
Steven: As I was just saying to Philip, I am chairing a meeting in London hosted by the UK Cabinet Office
16:06:48 [Steven]
... (a part of govt). The UK govt has decided to use ODF instead of MS Office
16:07:04 [Steven]
... and I am chairing that meeting (and talking about XForms)
16:07:14 [Steven]
... I won't be back in time for the call.
16:07:29 [Steven]
http://plugfest.opendocumentformat.org/2014-london/
16:07:58 [Steven]
... Good news all round.
16:08:34 [Steven]
Topic: ACTION-1986 - Investigate dealing with excess namespace nodes in
16:08:34 [Steven]
section 3.2 the instance element
16:08:34 [Steven]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2014Dec/0000.html
16:08:49 [Steven]
(Nick's not here, so there are a number of items we can't handle today)
16:09:35 [Steven]
Erik: [walks through the email]
16:16:31 [Steven]
Steven: So you copy namespace nodes to the root of the instance for contained elements and attributes that have ns bindings, but NOT for namespaces in content?
16:16:36 [Steven]
Erik: Right
16:18:12 [Steven]
Steven: So if we adopted the backward-incompatible way, the only forms that would potential break would be those with namespace prefixes in content.
16:18:41 [ebruchez]
Steven it seems the others can still hear me
16:18:46 [Steven]
Steven Anyone else hear him?
16:19:26 [Steven]
s/Steven Anyone else hear him?//
16:20:16 [Steven]
Erik: Yes, namespaces in content, or for people who needed the namespaces to be in scope.
16:20:21 [Steven]
Steven: Example?
16:21:14 [Steven]
Erik: An instance that inherits a namespace node, that the form ends up using by creating nodes that use them...
16:21:56 [Steven]
Alain: another possibility is when the forms are automatically created.
16:25:03 [Steven]
Steven: Do we have a preference for backwards-compatibility/incompatibility?
16:25:17 [Steven]
... since the incompatible one is the one that is likely to occur more often.
16:25:36 [Steven]
Erik: It is a broader compatibility issue, as raised by Nick.
16:25:50 [Steven]
... We can control that with @version
16:26:20 [Steven]
... I think that the default being the new behaviour is the better choice
16:27:48 [Steven]
Erik: I prefer the incompatibility route
16:27:52 [Steven]
Philip: Agree
16:27:59 [Steven]
s/Erik/Alain/
16:28:21 [Steven]
STeven: I can live with that
16:28:26 [Steven]
s/ST/St/
16:28:43 [Steven]
Erik: I think that's OK
16:29:28 [Steven]
Steven: It means old forms have to have a textual change if they are affected, but there aren't many of those
16:30:02 [Steven]
... and let them be more explicit about the namespaces being used by copying them to the root element of the instance
16:30:52 [Steven]
RESOLUTION: Adopt the "Backwards incompatible" version of namespace usage in instances
16:31:24 [Steven]
ACTION: Erik to write text for new instance namespaces processing
16:31:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1990 - Write text for new instance namespaces processing [on Erik Bruchez - due 2014-12-10].
16:31:39 [Steven]
Topic: Review section 9
16:31:39 [Steven]
https://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_2.0#Container_Form_Controls
16:32:13 [Steven]
Steven: Alain sent a message http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2014Dec/0002.html
16:32:47 [Steven]
Steven: A good point.
16:33:42 [Steven]
Erik: Isn't the goal of caseref and indexref to control the behaviour via an instance?
16:35:25 [Steven]
Alain: toggle would not be possible with casevalue
16:35:30 [Steven]
Erik: I see.
16:35:35 [Steven]
... that could work.
16:36:16 [Steven]
Steven: So casevalue would calculate to a string which would select one of the IDs?
16:36:19 [Steven]
Alain: Yes.
16:36:38 [Steven]
Steven: Replacing caseref?
16:36:43 [Steven]
Alain: No because of toggle.
16:37:13 [Steven]
Erik: We already allow ref attributes to point to atomic values.
16:37:21 [ebruchez]
@caseref="...compute the selected case..."
16:37:38 [Steven]
... there is nothing that would prevent us from having a caseref that returns a string.
16:38:28 [Steven]
... so we might not need another attribute
16:38:40 [Steven]
Alain: But then we could deprecate output/@value
16:39:14 [Steven]
Steven: I'd like longer to consider the ramifications; OK we put it off to nexxt call?
16:39:19 [Steven]
s/xx/x/
16:39:37 [Steven]
Steven: I had a couple of comments
16:40:21 [Steven]
... case has label as content, so it should have a label as attribute as well.
16:41:00 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms/#ui-switch-module
16:42:06 [Steven]
Erik: I'm not sure what we do with that label...
16:43:03 [Steven]
Steven: case does not have help hint or alert on the other hand. It is not a control.
16:43:29 [Steven]
Erik: It is not unreasonable that Case have a label (or even help and hint)
16:44:00 [Steven]
... it should either have none or all of them.
16:44:23 [Steven]
Steven: We need to decide, and while we are about it, dialog has the same problem.
16:45:56 [Steven]
s/same/similar/
16:46:08 [Steven]
Erik: Dialog should have them all.
16:46:25 [Steven]
Steven: dialog is much more clearly a control than case is
16:46:29 [Steven]
Erik: Exactly.
16:46:48 [Steven]
ACTION: Steven to add help hint alert elements to dialog
16:46:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1991 - Add help hint alert elements to dialog [on Steven Pemberton - due 2014-12-10].
16:47:26 [Steven]
Steven: Back to <case>
16:47:34 [Steven]
... do we think of it as a control?
16:48:22 [Steven]
Steven: So you think it is valid that it has a label
16:48:30 [Steven]
Alain: Agree
16:48:41 [Steven]
Steven: So we should add them all?
16:48:45 [Steven]
Alain: Right
16:49:00 [Steven]
ACTION: Steven to add help hint alert elements, and attributes to <case>
16:49:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1992 - Add help hint alert elements, and attributes to <case> [on Steven Pemberton - due 2014-12-10].
16:49:46 [Steven]
Steven: I moved itemset and copy as agreed last week. All other comments from me are editorial.
16:50:59 [Steven]
Steven: I propose we discuss section 10 at the call in two weeks time.
16:51:13 [Steven]
Topic: AOB
16:51:18 [Steven]
[None]
16:51:25 [Zakim]
-pfennell
16:51:26 [Zakim]
-Steven
16:51:27 [Zakim]
-ebruchez
16:51:27 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
16:51:28 [Zakim]
IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
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Attendees were Steven, pfennell, [IPcaller], ebruchez
16:51:32 [Steven]
Next call in two weeks
16:51:35 [Steven]
[ADJOURN
16:51:39 [Steven]
s/N/N]
16:51:46 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:51:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/03-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:52:21 [Steven]
s/Net week/Next week/
16:52:22 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:52:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/03-forms-minutes.html Steven
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