17:32:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
17:32:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/14-aria-apg-irc
17:32:36 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria-apg
17:32:39 <LJWatson> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:32:39 <Zakim> sorry, LJWatson, I don't know what conference this is
17:32:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see jamesn, RRSAgent, Zakim, mattking, LJWatson, bgaraventa1979, kooje, MichaelC, trackbot
17:32:48 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:32:48 <Zakim> sorry, jamesn, I don't know what conference this is
17:32:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see jamesn, RRSAgent, Zakim, mattking, LJWatson, bgaraventa1979, kooje, MichaelC, trackbot
17:32:51 <LJWatson> zakim this is 92463
17:33:00 <MichaelC> zakim, this is 92473
17:33:00 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PF()12:30PM
17:33:16 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:33:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.217.244.aaaa, +1.650.738.aabb, Matt_King, [IPcaller], James_Nurthen
17:33:29 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is LJWatson
17:33:29 <Zakim> +LJWatson; got it
17:33:39 <jamesn> zakim, aabb is Bryan_Garaventa
17:33:39 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa; got it
17:34:01 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
17:34:14 <kooje> my last name is ku
17:34:29 <kooje> my first name is Jaeun but I would go by Jemma
17:34:31 <MichaelC> meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices
17:34:41 <kooje> I am from University of illinois, urbana-champaign
17:35:29 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:35:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jemma_Ku, Bryan_Garaventa, Matt_King, LJWatson, James_Nurthen
17:36:03 <kooje> my phone number starts with 217
17:36:23 <Zakim> +??P5
17:36:35 <MichaelC> ack me
17:36:50 <MichaelC> ack me
17:38:24 <MichaelC> agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/117FD62B-F19D-4AAD-BD7E-99D77B1A5895@oracle.com
17:43:29 <jamesn> .... git wiki here
17:43:29 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices
17:45:59 <MichaelC> ack me
17:48:02 <MichaelC> ack me
17:50:28 <jamesn> scribe: jamesn
17:50:37 <MichaelC> chair: Matt_King
17:50:40 <jamesn> TOPIC: Link Example
17:51:01 <MichaelC> ackme
17:51:04 <MichaelC> ack me
17:51:32 <jamesn> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/examples/link-design-pattern/links.html
17:51:37 <jamesn> rawgit.com
17:52:21 <jamesn> took this https://github.com/w3c/aria/blob/master/practices/examples/link-design-pattern/links.html
17:52:30 <jamesn> and pasted into rawgit.com
17:54:03 <jamesn> MK: Main question is should we include notes
17:54:43 <jamesn> MK: 1 thing i noticed is that you don't get a link context menu when you right click on a link coded this way. One thing that we might want to talk about in the notes
17:55:13 <jamesn> MK: they wouldn't be able to know how you are getting the target. Some of the context menu actions wouldn't work
17:55:21 <jamesn> BG: depends what they are using it for
17:55:32 <jamesn> BG: There isn't really anything that fits the UI
17:55:42 <jamesn> BG: It is up to the author if they want to do this
17:56:23 <jamesn> JN: I don't think it is an accessibility issue - and don't think FF would consider this a bug
17:57:29 <jamesn> MK: Where in the guide do we want to include info about what works in what browser etc.
17:57:31 <jamesn> MK: I would much rather see that in the examples
17:57:54 <jamesn> LW: who is going to keep that up to date
17:58:15 <jamesn> BG: JF was putting together an aria compatibility matrix or has been talking aout it
17:58:25 <MichaelC> ack me
17:58:33 <jamesn> LW: tried for something at CSUN but didnt get off the ground
17:58:42 <jamesn> MC: tets harness not working right now
17:58:54 <jamesn> LW: are there plans to keep that up to date
17:59:13 <jamesn> MC: the latest decision was to keep it up to date but has always been a stopgap tool.
17:59:57 <jamesn> MK: there is an opportunity to use these as test cases. the examples might facilitate test cases
18:00:11 <jamesn> MC: might want to consider test the web forward framework
18:00:29 <jamesn> MC: designed around script based automated testing of features
18:00:40 <jamesn> LW: would like to know more about this anyway
18:00:48 <MichaelC> http://testthewebforward.org/
18:01:01 <jamesn> MC: link for docs and getting started
18:01:13 <jamesn> MC: writing tests and running tests
18:01:41 <jamesn> MC: in theory not limited to the kinds of tests they document there. in practice get the most benefits if using the kind of tests they already have support for.
18:01:52 <jamesn> LW: don't think this changes my stance
18:02:05 <jamesn> MC: WCAG has moved to an auxiliary page
18:02:09 <kooje> can you tell me what testing tool we are talking about?
18:02:16 <jamesn> MC: also an accessibility support DB project
18:02:34 <jamesn> JN: sounds like the best fit we have so far
18:02:41 <kooje> never mind
18:02:43 <MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/WAI/accessibility-support/
18:03:36 <jamesn> LW: circling back to including notes with examples
18:03:50 <jamesn> LW: good to get a general format of what we want to include in these examples
18:04:02 <LJWatson> http://ljwatson.github.io/ARIA-examples/link-examples/links.html
18:04:15 <jamesn> BG: like the idea of the basic markup. Keyboard support needs to be there.
18:04:38 <jamesn> BG: combining with refs to w3c tutorials would also be good
18:06:52 <jamesn> MK: don't want to repeat what is in the APG
18:07:05 <jamesn> MK: but something to explain what is implemented.
18:07:37 <jamesn> MK: how many people need stuff explained why certain things are there.
18:08:23 <jamesn> MK: really like the phrases like where it says the span element is not natively interactive
18:08:35 <kooje> I agree.
18:09:52 <jamesn> BG: link to a checklist within the aria bpg guide which indicates that span not a native element etc.
18:12:00 <kooje> I like the idea of explaining of the clear purpose in the notes.
18:13:52 <jamesn> BG: a kind of footnotes kind of thing might be useful
18:14:02 <jamesn> BG: if there was a general guidance section.
18:15:02 <kooje> can use a different label, not "notes"?
18:15:20 <jamesn> MK: precede with something specific and then add generic stuff
18:15:53 <jamesn> BG: There are going to be a lot of commonalities between thjinngs with for example aria-activedescendent
18:16:14 <jamesn> MK: the other thing to keep in mind is that things like combobox could end up with multiple examples
18:16:26 <jamesn> MK: when we do that I am envisioning 1 page with multiple examples
18:16:41 <jamesn> MK: probably each would have 1 set of notes
18:16:46 <jamesn> BG: I agree
18:17:18 <kooje> as a developer, I felt confused because there are so many options
18:17:29 <jamesn> JN: sometimes makes pages more difficult to write
18:18:05 <jamesn> BG: have been building out some samples. Sometimes the requirements to make things accessible are very different
18:18:34 <jamesn> BG: sometimes the requirements vs a readonly element varies quite a bit across devices
18:19:12 <jamesn> Describing the differences is very important
18:19:32 <jamesn> BG: you have to use different attributes and techniques
18:20:01 <jamesn> MK: A table that lists the examples in the APG could accomplish this
18:20:31 <kooje> table idea sounds good
18:20:32 <jamesn> JN: brief description in APG is useful
18:20:47 <jamesn> MK: hopefully will allow us to create a repeatable pattern
18:22:07 <jamesn> BG: if typing into an editable combobox that is fine. Need to be able to navigate left and right within the textbox. There has to be some sort of scripting behaviour.
18:22:26 <jamesn> BG: there are variations that don't translate equally
18:22:53 <jamesn> JN: some things sound like screen reader issues
18:26:00 <Zakim> -LJWatson
18:26:04 <jamesn> LW: have enough to create more notes for links
18:26:58 <jamesn> TOPIC: Future meetings
18:27:29 <jamesn> Will not meet Nov 28, Dec 26 or Jan 2
18:27:43 <kooje> ok
18:28:14 <mattking> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#checkbox
18:28:40 <jamesn> TOPIC: Checkbox
18:29:58 <jamesn> MK: this is what got us into the keyboard handling part
18:31:01 <jamesn> Topic: button
18:31:04 <mattking> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#button
18:31:21 <jamesn> MK: I am going to propose some changes to the keyboard handling section
18:31:36 <jamesn> MK: something that explains the fundamentals of focus management
18:31:46 <kooje> As a newbie to the group, is there any way I can help? It would be nice if I can do shadow work of one of members.
18:32:12 <jamesn> MK: gets deep fast... would be nice if in section 3 there was something that was higher level
18:34:15 <jamesn> MK: want to link to this - and takes too long to get to what is relevant
18:35:38 <jamesn> JN: too many words...
18:35:54 <jamesn> MK: some bits more important to toolkit writers or screen reader users.
18:36:08 <jamesn> MK: fewer than half the words are needed
18:37:20 <jamesn> JN: I think we should give people some guidance as to what is and what is not a toggle button.
18:37:37 <jamesn> MK: should mention that there are 3 different types of buttons
18:37:54 <jamesn> MK: just a link to menu button
18:39:46 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27327
18:41:43 <jamesn> MK: a toggle button label shouldn't change when its state changes
18:44:29 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27328
18:47:13 <jamesn> JN: there are cases where you do want focus to move from a button for example add a new search criteria - you want to move to the new crtieria
18:48:27 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27329
18:49:36 <jamesn> MK: going to take out references to external examples
18:49:49 <jamesn> MK: as we replace them
18:50:28 <jamesn> MK: stop here now
18:50:35 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:50:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/14-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:50:39 <kooje> I cannot hear anything
18:50:43 <jamesn> zakim, please part
18:50:43 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +1.217.244.aaaa, +1.650.738.aabb, Matt_King, James_Nurthen, LJWatson, Bryan_Garaventa, Jemma_Ku, Michael_Cooper
18:50:43 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
18:51:03 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:51:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/14-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:52:46 <MichaelC> ack me
18:52:57 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria-apg
18:53:03 <MichaelC> ack me
18:53:17 <MichaelC> zakim, unmute Michael
18:53:17 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper was not muted, MichaelC
18:55:08 <Zakim> -Jemma_Ku
18:58:50 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
18:58:51 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
18:58:53 <Zakim> -Matt_King
18:58:54 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
18:58:54 <Zakim> WAI_PF()12:30PM has ended
18:58:54 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.217.244.aaaa, +1.650.738.aabb, Matt_King, James_Nurthen, LJWatson, Bryan_Garaventa, Jemma_Ku, Michael_Cooper
18:58:55 <MichaelC> zakim, bye
18:58:55 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg