IRC log of aria-apg on 2014-11-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:32:30 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
17:32:30 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/14-aria-apg-irc
17:32:36 [jamesn]
jamesn has joined #aria-apg
17:32:39 [LJWatson]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:32:39 [Zakim]
sorry, LJWatson, I don't know what conference this is
17:32:42 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jamesn, RRSAgent, Zakim, mattking, LJWatson, bgaraventa1979, kooje, MichaelC, trackbot
17:32:48 [jamesn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:32:48 [Zakim]
sorry, jamesn, I don't know what conference this is
17:32:50 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jamesn, RRSAgent, Zakim, mattking, LJWatson, bgaraventa1979, kooje, MichaelC, trackbot
17:32:51 [LJWatson]
zakim this is 92463
17:33:00 [MichaelC]
zakim, this is 92473
17:33:00 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PF()12:30PM
17:33:16 [jamesn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:33:16 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.217.244.aaaa, +1.650.738.aabb, Matt_King, [IPcaller], James_Nurthen
17:33:29 [LJWatson]
zakim, [IPcaller] is LJWatson
17:33:29 [Zakim]
+LJWatson; got it
17:33:39 [jamesn]
zakim, aabb is Bryan_Garaventa
17:33:39 [Zakim]
+Bryan_Garaventa; got it
17:34:01 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make log world
17:34:14 [kooje]
my last name is ku
17:34:29 [kooje]
my first name is Jaeun but I would go by Jemma
17:34:31 [MichaelC]
meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices
17:34:41 [kooje]
I am from University of illinois, urbana-champaign
17:35:29 [jamesn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:35:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jemma_Ku, Bryan_Garaventa, Matt_King, LJWatson, James_Nurthen
17:36:03 [kooje]
my phone number starts with 217
17:36:23 [Zakim]
+??P5
17:36:35 [MichaelC]
ack me
17:36:50 [MichaelC]
ack me
17:38:24 [MichaelC]
agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/117FD62B-F19D-4AAD-BD7E-99D77B1A5895@oracle.com
17:43:29 [jamesn]
.... git wiki here
17:43:29 [jamesn]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices
17:45:59 [MichaelC]
ack me
17:48:02 [MichaelC]
ack me
17:50:28 [jamesn]
scribe: jamesn
17:50:37 [MichaelC]
chair: Matt_King
17:50:40 [jamesn]
TOPIC: Link Example
17:51:01 [MichaelC]
ackme
17:51:04 [MichaelC]
ack me
17:51:32 [jamesn]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/examples/link-design-pattern/links.html
17:51:37 [jamesn]
rawgit.com
17:52:21 [jamesn]
took this https://github.com/w3c/aria/blob/master/practices/examples/link-design-pattern/links.html
17:52:30 [jamesn]
and pasted into rawgit.com
17:54:03 [jamesn]
MK: Main question is should we include notes
17:54:43 [jamesn]
MK: 1 thing i noticed is that you don't get a link context menu when you right click on a link coded this way. One thing that we might want to talk about in the notes
17:55:13 [jamesn]
MK: they wouldn't be able to know how you are getting the target. Some of the context menu actions wouldn't work
17:55:21 [jamesn]
BG: depends what they are using it for
17:55:32 [jamesn]
BG: There isn't really anything that fits the UI
17:55:42 [jamesn]
BG: It is up to the author if they want to do this
17:56:23 [jamesn]
JN: I don't think it is an accessibility issue - and don't think FF would consider this a bug
17:57:29 [jamesn]
MK: Where in the guide do we want to include info about what works in what browser etc.
17:57:31 [jamesn]
MK: I would much rather see that in the examples
17:57:54 [jamesn]
LW: who is going to keep that up to date
17:58:15 [jamesn]
BG: JF was putting together an aria compatibility matrix or has been talking aout it
17:58:25 [MichaelC]
ack me
17:58:33 [jamesn]
LW: tried for something at CSUN but didnt get off the ground
17:58:42 [jamesn]
MC: tets harness not working right now
17:58:54 [jamesn]
LW: are there plans to keep that up to date
17:59:13 [jamesn]
MC: the latest decision was to keep it up to date but has always been a stopgap tool.
17:59:57 [jamesn]
MK: there is an opportunity to use these as test cases. the examples might facilitate test cases
18:00:11 [jamesn]
MC: might want to consider test the web forward framework
18:00:29 [jamesn]
MC: designed around script based automated testing of features
18:00:40 [jamesn]
LW: would like to know more about this anyway
18:00:48 [MichaelC]
http://testthewebforward.org/
18:01:01 [jamesn]
MC: link for docs and getting started
18:01:13 [jamesn]
MC: writing tests and running tests
18:01:41 [jamesn]
MC: in theory not limited to the kinds of tests they document there. in practice get the most benefits if using the kind of tests they already have support for.
18:01:52 [jamesn]
LW: don't think this changes my stance
18:02:05 [jamesn]
MC: WCAG has moved to an auxiliary page
18:02:09 [kooje]
can you tell me what testing tool we are talking about?
18:02:16 [jamesn]
MC: also an accessibility support DB project
18:02:34 [jamesn]
JN: sounds like the best fit we have so far
18:02:41 [kooje]
never mind
18:02:43 [MichaelC]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/accessibility-support/
18:03:36 [jamesn]
LW: circling back to including notes with examples
18:03:50 [jamesn]
LW: good to get a general format of what we want to include in these examples
18:04:02 [LJWatson]
http://ljwatson.github.io/ARIA-examples/link-examples/links.html
18:04:15 [jamesn]
BG: like the idea of the basic markup. Keyboard support needs to be there.
18:04:38 [jamesn]
BG: combining with refs to w3c tutorials would also be good
18:06:52 [jamesn]
MK: don't want to repeat what is in the APG
18:07:05 [jamesn]
MK: but something to explain what is implemented.
18:07:37 [jamesn]
MK: how many people need stuff explained why certain things are there.
18:08:23 [jamesn]
MK: really like the phrases like where it says the span element is not natively interactive
18:08:35 [kooje]
I agree.
18:09:52 [jamesn]
BG: link to a checklist within the aria bpg guide which indicates that span not a native element etc.
18:12:00 [kooje]
I like the idea of explaining of the clear purpose in the notes.
18:13:52 [jamesn]
BG: a kind of footnotes kind of thing might be useful
18:14:02 [jamesn]
BG: if there was a general guidance section.
18:15:02 [kooje]
can use a different label, not "notes"?
18:15:20 [jamesn]
MK: precede with something specific and then add generic stuff
18:15:53 [jamesn]
BG: There are going to be a lot of commonalities between thjinngs with for example aria-activedescendent
18:16:14 [jamesn]
MK: the other thing to keep in mind is that things like combobox could end up with multiple examples
18:16:26 [jamesn]
MK: when we do that I am envisioning 1 page with multiple examples
18:16:41 [jamesn]
MK: probably each would have 1 set of notes
18:16:46 [jamesn]
BG: I agree
18:17:18 [kooje]
as a developer, I felt confused because there are so many options
18:17:29 [jamesn]
JN: sometimes makes pages more difficult to write
18:18:05 [jamesn]
BG: have been building out some samples. Sometimes the requirements to make things accessible are very different
18:18:34 [jamesn]
BG: sometimes the requirements vs a readonly element varies quite a bit across devices
18:19:12 [jamesn]
Describing the differences is very important
18:19:32 [jamesn]
BG: you have to use different attributes and techniques
18:20:01 [jamesn]
MK: A table that lists the examples in the APG could accomplish this
18:20:31 [kooje]
table idea sounds good
18:20:32 [jamesn]
JN: brief description in APG is useful
18:20:47 [jamesn]
MK: hopefully will allow us to create a repeatable pattern
18:22:07 [jamesn]
BG: if typing into an editable combobox that is fine. Need to be able to navigate left and right within the textbox. There has to be some sort of scripting behaviour.
18:22:26 [jamesn]
BG: there are variations that don't translate equally
18:22:53 [jamesn]
JN: some things sound like screen reader issues
18:26:00 [Zakim]
-LJWatson
18:26:04 [jamesn]
LW: have enough to create more notes for links
18:26:58 [jamesn]
TOPIC: Future meetings
18:27:29 [jamesn]
Will not meet Nov 28, Dec 26 or Jan 2
18:27:43 [kooje]
ok
18:28:14 [mattking]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#checkbox
18:28:40 [jamesn]
TOPIC: Checkbox
18:29:58 [jamesn]
MK: this is what got us into the keyboard handling part
18:31:01 [jamesn]
Topic: button
18:31:04 [mattking]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#button
18:31:21 [jamesn]
MK: I am going to propose some changes to the keyboard handling section
18:31:36 [jamesn]
MK: something that explains the fundamentals of focus management
18:31:46 [kooje]
As a newbie to the group, is there any way I can help? It would be nice if I can do shadow work of one of members.
18:32:12 [jamesn]
MK: gets deep fast... would be nice if in section 3 there was something that was higher level
18:34:15 [jamesn]
MK: want to link to this - and takes too long to get to what is relevant
18:35:38 [jamesn]
JN: too many words...
18:35:54 [jamesn]
MK: some bits more important to toolkit writers or screen reader users.
18:36:08 [jamesn]
MK: fewer than half the words are needed
18:37:20 [jamesn]
JN: I think we should give people some guidance as to what is and what is not a toggle button.
18:37:37 [jamesn]
MK: should mention that there are 3 different types of buttons
18:37:54 [jamesn]
MK: just a link to menu button
18:39:46 [jamesn]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27327
18:41:43 [jamesn]
MK: a toggle button label shouldn't change when its state changes
18:44:29 [jamesn]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27328
18:47:13 [jamesn]
JN: there are cases where you do want focus to move from a button for example add a new search criteria - you want to move to the new crtieria
18:48:27 [jamesn]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27329
18:49:36 [jamesn]
MK: going to take out references to external examples
18:49:49 [jamesn]
MK: as we replace them
18:50:28 [jamesn]
MK: stop here now
18:50:35 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:50:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/14-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:50:39 [kooje]
I cannot hear anything
18:50:43 [jamesn]
zakim, please part
18:50:43 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.217.244.aaaa, +1.650.738.aabb, Matt_King, James_Nurthen, LJWatson, Bryan_Garaventa, Jemma_Ku, Michael_Cooper
18:50:43 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria-apg
18:51:03 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:51:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/14-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:52:46 [MichaelC]
ack me
18:52:57 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #aria-apg
18:53:03 [MichaelC]
ack me
18:53:17 [MichaelC]
zakim, unmute Michael
18:53:17 [Zakim]
Michael_Cooper was not muted, MichaelC
18:55:08 [Zakim]
-Jemma_Ku
18:58:50 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
18:58:51 [Zakim]
-James_Nurthen
18:58:53 [Zakim]
-Matt_King
18:58:54 [Zakim]
-Bryan_Garaventa
18:58:54 [Zakim]
WAI_PF()12:30PM has ended
18:58:54 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.217.244.aaaa, +1.650.738.aabb, Matt_King, James_Nurthen, LJWatson, Bryan_Garaventa, Jemma_Ku, Michael_Cooper
18:58:55 [MichaelC]
zakim, bye
18:58:55 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria-apg