15:25:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
15:25:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-irc
15:26:27 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:26:29 <ivan> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
15:27:36 <ivan> Meeting: DPUB IG F2F meeting - second day, 2014-10-31
15:28:00 <ivan> zakim, dial seattle
15:28:00 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is
15:28:07 <ivan> zakim, this will be dpub
15:28:08 <Zakim> ok, ivan; I see DPUB_IG()11:00AM scheduled to start 28 minutes ago
15:28:13 <ivan> zakim, dial seattle
15:28:13 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:28:15 <Zakim> DPUB_IG()11:00AM has now started
15:28:16 <Zakim> +Seattle
15:28:43 <brady_duga> brady_duga has joined #dpub
15:28:46 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #dpub
15:29:22 <ivan> scribenick: brady_duga
15:29:49 <ivan> Topic: STEM
15:30:02 <pkra> be right there....
15:30:25 <takeshi> takeshi has joined #DPUB
15:30:40 <dauwhe> Zakim, how are you?
15:30:40 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, dauwhe.
15:30:58 <Zakim> +pkra
15:31:04 <dauwhe> Zakim, your personality leaves something to be desired.
15:31:04 <Zakim> I don't understand you, dauwhe
15:32:37 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub
15:32:57 <ivan_> ivan_ has joined #dpub
15:33:22 <Zakim> +madi
15:33:36 <ivan_> Present+ Madi_Solomon
15:33:56 <pkra> Krautzberger
15:34:07 <bradk> bradk has joined #dpub
15:34:08 <pkra> ivan
15:34:08 <ivan_> Present+ Peter_Krautzberger
15:34:12 <pkra> :-)
15:34:21 <mgylling> Present+ Markus_Gylling
15:34:23 <ivan_> Present+ Brady_Duga
15:34:29 <ivan_> Present+ Karen_Myers
15:34:31 <dauwhe> Present+ Dave_Cramer
15:34:39 <ivan_> Present+ Bill_Kasdorf
15:34:47 <ivan_> Present+ Dave_Cramer
15:34:54 <tzviya> chair: tzviya
15:34:54 <ivan_> Present+ Ivan_Herman
15:35:04 <ivan_> Present: Markus_Gylling
15:35:11 <Karen> Karen has joined #dpub
15:35:18 <ivan_> Present+ Tzviya_Siegman
15:35:26 <ivan_> Present+ Deborah_Kaplan
15:35:37 <ivan_> Present+ Charles_LaPierre
15:35:40 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #DPUB
15:35:47 <ivan_> Present+ Tim_Cole
15:36:17 <takeshi> Present+ Takeshi_Kanai
15:36:32 <brady_duga> tzviya: no real agenda for STEM, want to bring focus to STEM
15:36:41 <Karen_> Karen_ has joined #dpub
15:37:20 <brady_duga> peter: update - wrapped up all but 1 interview
15:37:38 <brady_duga> peter: … talked to 4 or 5 people [various names] …
15:38:03 <brady_duga> peter: … very productive, will start on the email interview/questionaire now
15:38:19 <brady_duga> peter: … will set up a meeting of the actual task force
15:38:42 <brady_duga> peter: … lots of advanced layout features people are looking for
15:38:47 <ivan_> Present+ Shinyu_Murakami
15:38:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
15:39:07 <brady_duga> peter: … extremes: epub heavilly adjusts to reader vs advanced layout
15:39:31 <brady_duga> peter: … surprised that there was very little STEM specific tech that people need and should be standardized
15:39:54 <brady_duga> peter: … there is math which is ahead of the curve
15:40:07 <tzviya> q?
15:40:18 <brady_duga> peter: … for every else there are people stuck in proprietary tech
15:40:20 <murakami> murakami has joined #dpub
15:40:30 <brady_duga> peter: … not a lot of knowledge about what is needed to get it in the web
15:40:49 <brady_duga> tzviya: Might just be that people don’t know what is needed
15:41:29 <brady_duga> tzviya: … maybe people just haven’t explored these issues, or have they tried and given up?
15:41:47 <ivan_> Present+ Ben_De_Meister
15:41:48 <brady_duga> peter: not a lot of giving up. Lot of focus on the print side, so limits what you can do
15:41:54 <TimCole> TimCole has joined #dpub
15:42:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:42:21 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:42:53 <brady_duga> bill: asking about pub formats in a traditional sense, or using the web for science in general?
15:43:00 <TimCole> q+
15:43:03 <clapierre1> clapierre1 has joined #DPUB
15:43:19 <brady_duga> bill: … in science it is taken for granted that the web is used
15:43:58 <pkra> my call dropped...
15:43:59 <brady_duga> bill: .. reaction to comment about reflowable. Using tools is common and not a problem, reflowable content is another story.
15:44:23 <Zakim> -pkra
15:44:26 <pkra> brb
15:44:43 <bjdmeest> bjdmeest has joined #dpub
15:44:51 <brady_duga> dkaplan: what is an epub? what is a publication?
15:44:56 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben De Meester
15:44:59 <brady_duga> bill: yes, keep cycling back to that
15:45:03 <Zakim> +pkra
15:45:08 <brady_duga> bill: … may not be relevant
15:45:21 <brady_duga> dkaplan: is there a STEM group at W3c?
15:45:25 <brady_duga> ivan: no
15:46:19 <brady_duga> ivan: there has been discussion in the last few months about publications of schaolarly data
15:46:20 <Zakim> -pkra
15:46:24 <pkra> flaky connection..
15:46:58 <Zakim> +pkra
15:47:32 <ivan> q+
15:47:48 <brady_duga> zviya: wants to make sure we can actually accomplish something. We could cover the entire web, but that is impossible. Please let’s not try
15:47:59 <brady_duga> tzviya: … peter, can we get some next steps?
15:48:25 <brady_duga> tim: there is a set of concerns about traditional pubs moving to the web that PDF can’t do
15:48:45 <brady_duga> tim: … for instance, in math it is not just data, for example a graph you can manipualte
15:48:55 <brady_duga> tim: … or a 3d model
15:49:05 <brady_duga> bill: already done routinely
15:49:11 <brady_duga> tim: yes, but non-standard
15:49:12 <tzviya> q?
15:49:17 <tzviya> ack TimCole
15:49:49 <brady_duga> tzviya: do you want to standardize the data or the method or presenting the data?
15:50:07 <brady_duga> tzviya: … data we can address, not so much the 3d modelling
15:50:17 <joanie> joanie has left #dpub
15:50:19 <brady_duga> bill: why can’t we do the modelling
15:50:51 <brady_duga> bill: … our job is not to solve the problems. If we are focusing on STEM we can’t say modelling is out of scope
15:50:58 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #dpub
15:51:31 <brady_duga> tim: Dichotomy isn’t unreasonable
15:51:42 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:51:45 <pkra> q+
15:52:04 <brady_duga> ivan: 2 indepentent things
15:52:28 <brady_duga> ivan: … 1) there are lots of problems with PDF. Lots of things STEM wants to do and PDF doesn’t offer them
15:53:03 <brady_duga> ivan: … if this group came up with lists of areas where STEM has problems with PDF, would be great
15:53:11 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/modelling/3D modelling
15:53:29 <brady_duga> ivan: … offers some names for Peter (ask him for them)
15:53:44 <bradk_> bradk_ has joined #dpub
15:53:52 <brady_duga> ivan: … 2) for the data, trying to find out what are the missing bits is something that is interesting and important
15:54:14 <brady_duga> ivan: … interesting because Don Groupson joined
15:54:35 <brady_duga> ivan: … have tried to bring 3d modelling to the web for years in web3d group
15:54:38 <tzviya> s/Groupson/Brutzman
15:54:39 <fjh> fjh has joined #dpub
15:55:09 <brady_duga> ivan: … w3c pushed away, not mature enough, may not be enough interest
15:55:37 <brady_duga> ivan: … if we push for it (on web, in epub), brings it into scope and makes it interesting to w3c
15:55:48 <brady_duga> ivan: … may be other interesting formats
15:56:22 <tzviya> ack pkra
15:56:24 <brady_duga> ivan: … whether w3c can handle it, we can’t decide, but we can identify issues with current specs (for example can html5 handle 3d like it handles svg)
15:57:02 <brady_duga> peter: clarifying that talking to real publishers, that doesn’t seem to be a place we can find solutions
15:57:09 <fjh_> fjh_ has joined #dpub
15:57:37 <brady_duga> peter: … static rendering eliminates need for custom rendering
15:57:43 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #dpub
15:58:16 <brady_duga> peter: … do think the idea of a STEM group or community to bring together interested parties might be a good outcome from the task force
15:58:45 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
15:58:46 <ivan> q+
15:58:47 <tzviya> q?
15:58:49 <liam_> liam_ has joined #dpub
15:58:50 <brady_duga> peter: … maybe the perfect tool is a couple of CG, might be worthwhile to bring these people together
15:58:52 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:59:16 <brady_duga> peter: … help publishers formulate the solutions they need (want to do interesting things, but don’t know how)
15:59:25 <brady_duga> ivan: only concern is work duplication
15:59:34 <ivan> Force11 - http://www.force11.org
16:00:04 <brady_duga> ivan: … is on the board at force11, looking at these issues, they are active
16:00:21 <brady_duga> ivan: … force11 doesn’t want to work alone
16:00:34 <brady_duga> ivan: … once we know what is needed, we can rech out to these groups
16:00:52 <brady_duga> ivan: … The interviews you had were with publishers
16:01:22 <brady_duga> ivan: … the big publishers are very conservative, so maybe you need to have interviews with people in the scholarly community
16:01:37 <tzviya> +1
16:01:47 <brady_duga> ivan: … there are very few scholarly publishers  in anything other than PDF
16:02:03 <brady_duga> ivan: … hard to break the circle, want ot hear from both sides
16:02:19 <brady_duga> bill: the first interviews were with those people. We do have that input.
16:02:45 <TimCole> q+
16:02:51 <fettes> fettes has joined #dpub
16:03:19 <brady_duga> peter: scholars annoyed with current tech, give me anything to get away from static rendering
16:03:20 <tzviya> ack TimCole
16:03:48 <brady_duga> tim: You ask scholars what they need in digital media, and they ask for the wrong thing, or underestimate
16:04:13 <brady_duga> tim: … got best results talking to PhD students. Learn a lot about their fears.
16:04:19 <dkaplan3> q+
16:04:32 <brady_duga> tim: … cautious, want to protect their careers
16:04:37 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
16:05:02 <ivan> q+
16:05:19 <ShaneM_> ShaneM_ has joined #dpub
16:06:08 <brady_duga> peter: Seems like a CG to bring people together would be good
16:06:36 <brady_duga> dkaplan: 2 deliverables: think STEM is a larger issues than DPUB (tell this to W3c)
16:06:54 <brady_duga> dkaplan: w3c should look into this for a STEM group
16:07:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:07:23 <brady_duga> dkaplan: … from dpub, we have a list of things that STEM people want in their publications that they can’t do
16:07:37 <brady_duga> dkaplan: … hand this research over to w3c/new group
16:07:45 <pkra> q+
16:08:03 <brady_duga> dkaplan: … we could be stuck just looking at one issue in this group for years
16:08:05 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:08:30 <ivan> Maryann Martone, maryann@ncmir.ucsd.edu
16:08:40 <brady_duga> ivan: 2 additional things: Peter - you could get an interview with Maryann Martone
16:08:53 <brady_duga> ivan: … I don’t want to do it, you should
16:09:24 <brady_duga> ivan: … other thing: to document what dkaplan just said is useful
16:09:32 <brady_duga> ivan: … but don’t get your hope up
16:10:14 <brady_duga> ivan: … things may have already slipped out of w3c, so we may be too late
16:10:20 <tzviya> ack Bill-Kasdorf
16:10:24 <brady_duga> ivan: … the list is very useful
16:10:39 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:11:02 <brady_duga> peter: to clarify, biggest problem is when you say Maryann Martone has good insights from our point of view, my problem is “what is out point of view”?
16:11:07 <madi> madi has joined #dpub
16:11:25 <brady_duga> ivan: what are issues scholars have with PDF? Or traditional publications?
16:11:39 <brady_duga> ivan: … she may have ideas and further pointers for that
16:12:14 <brady_duga> bill: the issues we are talking about today should go in the questionaire
16:12:26 <brady_duga> bill: … that’s what the interviews are for
16:13:00 <brady_duga> tzviya: At what point will we get data back from the questionnaire? This group is chartered for just one more year
16:13:39 <brady_duga> bill: task force strategy was to do interviews to create the larger, more structured questionaire
16:14:07 <brady_duga> peter: Timing, send out Q in Nov, then give people to end of year
16:14:14 <brady_duga> peter: … then write up in Jan
16:14:29 <brady_duga> ivan: can you come to conference in Jan?
16:14:33 <brady_duga> peter: I will try
16:14:36 <tzviya> q?
16:14:54 <tzviya> ack pkra
16:15:14 <brady_duga> tzviya: timing: get Q out in early Nov, give them 1 or 2 weeks, get all results by end of Nov.
16:15:35 <brady_duga> tzviya: … then process data in 2 or 4 weeks, when have it all ready for force11 conf
16:15:42 <Reinaldo_> Reinaldo_ has joined #dpub
16:15:52 <brady_duga> tzviya: … we end in less than 1 year, so need to have discrete action items ASAP
16:16:00 <brady_duga> tzviya: does that timeline work?
16:16:06 <brady_duga> peter: we will make it work
16:16:19 <brady_duga> bill: we can find a volunteer to help
16:16:45 <brady_duga> peter: surprising thing was authoring on and for the web topic
16:16:57 <brady_duga> peter: less STEM, but using the web as an authoring platform
16:17:00 <ivan> Present+ Daniel_Glazmann
16:17:05 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
16:17:15 <brady_duga> peter: … there is movement away from xml
16:17:33 <brady_duga> peter: … people data mine html anyway, so why do we make xml?
16:17:59 <brady_duga> peter: … slow transition away from PDF to web
16:18:19 <brady_duga> peter: … search - no one does it because there are no semantically interesting formats
16:18:48 <brady_duga> peter: … mathml is ahead of the curve, but everyone else there are no tools it is an abyss
16:18:48 <glazou> glazou has joined #dpub
16:18:59 <brady_duga> peter: … annotation work is appreciated
16:19:22 <tzviya> q?
16:19:22 <brady_duga> peter: … metadata - there is a lot of detailed metadata, but it seems too hard to use, too hand crafted
16:19:57 <brady_duga> peter: … peer review - this is publishing in general. How to organize it on the web, then how do we deal with STEM specific content (for example the data)
16:20:12 <brady_duga> peter: … and finally data. How to deal with data sets, make them available, etc
16:20:48 <brady_duga> tzviya: talk about AI
16:21:15 <brady_duga> action pkra to send STEM survey in Nov
16:21:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-34 - Send stem survey in nov [on Peter Krautzberger - due 2014-11-07].
16:21:51 <brady_duga> tzviya: who is on taskforce?
16:22:04 <brady_duga> ivan: reach out to Don
16:22:17 <brady_duga> action tzviya to reach out to Don
16:22:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-35 - Reach out to don [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2014-11-07].
16:22:50 <brady_duga> action pkra to call meeting of taskforce (maybe on this Monday)
16:22:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-36 - Call meeting of taskforce (maybe on this monday) [on Peter Krautzberger - due 2014-11-07].
16:23:37 <brady_duga> tzviya: Need to document the results. Ivan will lead the process through respec
16:24:17 <brady_duga> peter: have started to work on a proper respec document
16:24:37 <brady_duga> markus: have a tangent question
16:24:51 <brady_duga> markus: … ivan said there was a 3d standards war?
16:25:14 <brady_duga> ivan: webgl is low level. If you want complicated 3d models, doing it in webgl is tedious
16:25:58 <brady_duga> ivan: … x3d consortium has an xml spec for modelling (very old school)
16:26:20 <brady_duga> ivan: .. there is another group that has a similar language, but closer to the web (use CSS, DOM, etc)
16:26:30 <brady_duga> markus: do they both use webgl?
16:26:42 <brady_duga> ivan: yes, underneath they both use webgl
16:27:00 <brady_duga> ivan: … there was a German CG, sort of died out
16:27:23 <brady_duga> ivan: … it is worse than mathml, browsers say it is a niche market, not interested in implementing it
16:28:09 <brady_duga> ivan: … this idea of doing 3d at w3c, some people have talked about it since early 2000s
16:28:34 <tzviya> q?
16:28:36 <brady_duga> ivan: … if digital publishers push for it, maybe the new demand would push things forward
16:28:57 <dkaplan3> q+
16:29:15 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
16:29:46 <brady_duga> dkaplan: maybe out of school but when there is STEM outreach maybe talk to some blind scientists.
16:30:01 <dkaplan3> s/school/scope
16:30:06 <brady_duga> peter: maybe John Gardner?
16:30:51 <brady_duga> tzviya: we do have acccesible authoring tools at 1pm here. Peter, please join if you are awake
16:31:31 <Zakim> -madi
16:32:27 <Zakim> -pkra
16:36:59 <bobtung> bobtung has joined #dpub
16:42:29 <Zakim> + +44.788.775.aaaa
16:42:48 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
16:43:13 <Zakim> +madi
16:45:37 <bobtung_> bobtung_ has joined #dpub
16:46:00 <Zakim> +astein
16:46:49 <Zakim> + +1.217.721.aabb
16:47:14 <astein> astein has joined #DPUB
16:47:19 <ivan> Present+ Liam_Quin
16:47:36 <ivan> Present+ Alan_Stein
16:47:56 <ivan> Chair: Markus
16:47:59 <dauwhe> Topic: metadata
16:48:04 <Bill_Kasdorf> Metadata agenda is at https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F
16:48:06 <dauwhe> mgylling: we have two hours
16:48:25 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: this will be simple
16:48:31 <murakami_> murakami_ has joined #dpub
16:48:32 <liam_> liam_ has joined #dpub
16:48:42 <dauwhe> mgylling: what do you see as outcomes after two hours?
16:49:00 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: defer to ivan on first step
16:49:13 <dauwhe> ... we don't have is a document to deliver to w3c
16:49:18 <astein> *Ayla_Stein
16:49:26 <dauwhe> ... what are we asking of W3C to address metadata
16:49:32 <dauwhe> ... how can we best express that?
16:50:11 <dauwhe> ... we focused on many nebulous issues, where the W3C cannot help
16:50:21 <dauwhe> ivan: if the IG produces a document on a wish list
16:50:26 <dauwhe> ... these are things that should happen
16:50:38 <dauwhe> ... specific things at w3c
16:50:43 <dauwhe> ... that's as far as this group can go
16:50:53 <dauwhe> ... under which heading and structure?
16:51:10 <dauwhe> ... can publish as w3c note
16:51:16 <dauwhe> ... a stable document that can be refered to
16:51:19 <dauwhe> ... that's my goal
16:51:32 <dauwhe> ... in that doc you cannot use the word "recommendation"
16:52:04 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: overview... we know how we got here
16:52:08 <dauwhe> ... three main things
16:52:15 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:52:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see Seattle, +44.788.775.aaaa (muted), madi, astein, +1.217.721.aabb
16:52:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see liam_, murakami_, astein, bobtung, Reinaldo_, madi, ShaneM_, fettes, fjh, jamesn, bjdmeest, clapierre1, Bill_Kasdorf, Karen_, ivan, tzviya, takeshi, dauwhe,
16:52:18 <Zakim> ... brady_duga, RRSAgent, Zakim, mgylling, mihnea_____, astearns, dkaplan3, rego, plinss, trackbot
16:52:24 <dauwhe> ... first: need to better enable ONIX metadata expressed on the web and in web docs
16:52:47 <dauwhe> ivan: [administrative issues discussed]
16:52:51 <ivan> Present+ Graham
16:53:40 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: second issue is lack of understanding in pub community of existing tools like URIs
16:53:50 <dauwhe> ... little understanding of RDFa
16:53:58 <dauwhe> ... that's in pub side, not library side
16:54:09 <dauwhe> ... there's a big gulf between trade and library sides of business
16:54:28 <dauwhe> ... need better education
16:54:39 <dauwhe> ... third issue is rights metadata
16:54:59 <dauwhe> ... not just associating rights metadata with publications, but with portions of publications
16:55:07 <dauwhe> ... we don't have a strategy for those three issues
16:55:20 <dauwhe> ... let's talk about ONIX first, as we have Graham on the phone, Mr. Onix
16:55:29 <dauwhe> ... ONIX is a messaging format between trading partners
16:55:44 <dauwhe> ... it's confused with subject metadata, but ONIX is much more
16:55:53 <dauwhe> ... the discussion has often involved schema.org
16:56:08 <bobtung> bobtung has joined #dpub
16:56:09 <dauwhe> ... is the discussion about ONIX? Or schema.org?
16:56:17 <dauwhe> ... there are other orgs working on similar things
16:56:23 <dauwhe> ... let's collaborate but not collide
16:56:49 <dauwhe> ... first thing is to get a firm grasp on players and what they're doing, especially in schema.org
16:57:03 <dauwhe> ... BISG is U.S. org that talks to Editeur
16:57:17 <dauwhe> ... BISG is forming WG on book publishers using onix with schema.org
16:57:23 <dauwhe> ... Graham is chair of that WG for BISG
16:57:44 <dauwhe> ... when talking with ??? of Springer, people talking about subscription metadata in schema.org
16:58:01 <dauwhe> ... Also some work in Library community on schema.org
16:58:14 <dauwhe> ... so we may need to focus on schema.org rather than ONIX
16:58:34 <dauwhe> TimCole: we've worked with OCLC and LOC
16:58:48 <dauwhe> ... Libraries are trying to figure out how to use schema.org
16:58:56 <dauwhe> ... need authority files
16:59:29 <dauwhe> ... we have MARC records looking about information for names to map to URIs
16:59:50 <dauwhe> ... we analyzed 5m books, got 70% by matching
17:00:03 <dauwhe> ... partly because old MARC records didn't have birth/death data
17:00:09 <dauwhe> ... similar results with subject names
17:00:16 <dauwhe> ... made schema.org records better
17:00:24 <dauwhe> ... and linked them with other sources
17:00:42 <dauwhe> ... how to express holdings in schema.org
17:00:48 <dauwhe> ... there's a community group
17:01:24 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: pubs have ONIX, library has MARC
17:01:43 <dauwhe> ... but in library world there are major authority files like VIF, worldcat, name authority files
17:01:55 <dauwhe> ... that are invaluable to librarians, who are the real metadata experts
17:02:09 <dauwhe> ... but publishers don't know that sh%#
17:02:24 <dauwhe> TimCole: link to wikipedia names
17:03:28 <ivan> The community group Tim was talking about: http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/
17:03:33 <dauwhe> Graham: I agree with Tim
17:03:40 <liam_> liam_ has joined #dpub
17:03:46 <dauwhe> ... increasing interest in authorities like ISNI in pub world
17:03:58 <dauwhe> ... not quite the same as VIAF
17:04:05 <dauwhe> ... but does give you all disambiguations
17:04:14 <dauwhe> ... close links between OCLC and ISNI
17:04:26 <dauwhe> ... and is unique persistent identifier for a public identity
17:04:35 <dauwhe> ... can be expressed as URI
17:04:44 <dauwhe> ... [lots of slashes]
17:04:58 <dauwhe> ... there are also subject authorities like BISAC and BIC and Thema
17:05:22 <dauwhe> ... they do something similar to Dewey or LOC or similar things
17:05:37 <dauwhe> ... it's not that pub doesn't have authority, it's just different and perhaps a little behind
17:05:45 <dauwhe> ... ISNI isn't widely used yet
17:05:59 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: there are 8 million ISNI
17:06:11 <dauwhe> Graham: ISNI is growing quickly but not widely used
17:06:17 <dauwhe> ... the subject schemes are widely used
17:06:27 <dauwhe> ... BISAC is ubiquitious in US, BIC in UK
17:06:36 <dauwhe> ... the problem is that they are national
17:06:46 <ivan> (the scholarly publishers and authors have a similar service via ORCID (http://www.orcid.org)
17:06:49 <dauwhe> ... France has CLIL
17:06:58 <dauwhe> ... there are hundreds of these subject schemes
17:07:09 <dauwhe> ... Thema is designed to solve this problem
17:07:15 <dauwhe> ... based on BIC but more international
17:07:24 <dauwhe> ... Happy First Birthday to Thema!
17:07:28 <dauwhe> ... it's growing
17:07:39 <dauwhe> ... and commercially relevant
17:07:55 <dauwhe> ... it has different features than library subject schemes, which are much more details
17:08:06 <dauwhe> ... library schemes may have 100000 categories
17:08:18 <tzviya> q+
17:08:28 <dauwhe> ... publishers have relatively unskilled poeople, there are 4k subjects
17:08:40 <dauwhe> s/poeple/people/
17:08:48 <dauwhe> madi: [beep]
17:08:57 <dauwhe> ... what sort of actions do we want to take?
17:09:09 <dauwhe> tzviya: this is fun but let's focus
17:09:15 <ivan> q+
17:09:15 <tzviya> ack tzviya
17:09:21 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: there's lots of metadata out there
17:09:35 <dauwhe> ... focus should be to how to implement this in OWP?
17:09:39 <dauwhe> ... what needs to be done?
17:09:52 <hiroto> hiroto has joined #dpub
17:10:08 <dauwhe> ... do we need to chose between these identifiers? No, need lots of them
17:10:17 <dauwhe> ... but must express as URIs.
17:10:32 <dauwhe> ... need resolvable identifiers expressed as URIs
17:11:14 <dauwhe> ... we were focused on ONIX, which means we're focusing on book trade
17:11:19 <dauwhe> ... note we don't govern ONIX
17:11:30 <dauwhe> ... schema.org is not W3C standard
17:11:55 <dauwhe> ... I think we should focus on schema.org implementation, independent of the vocabulary
17:12:06 <tzviya> ack ivan
17:12:09 <dauwhe> ... what might need to be added/changed to make schema.org more useful
17:12:17 <dauwhe> ivan: we need to separate issues
17:12:39 <dauwhe> ... various schems like ISNI and Orchid
17:12:46 <dauwhe> ... these are important
17:12:57 <tzviya> s/Orchid/ORCID
17:12:58 <dauwhe> ... it's sad that we have many standards instead of one
17:13:27 <dauwhe> ... schema.org is a collection of terms for the properties
17:13:48 <dauwhe> ... can only have list of subjects (accepted vocabularies)
17:14:01 <dauwhe> ... we can't really influence them
17:14:27 <dauwhe> ... schema.org has a heirarchy of classes and properties
17:14:32 <dauwhe> ... persons and shops and actions
17:14:40 <dauwhe> ... which falls back to what ONIX can do
17:14:45 <dauwhe> ... ONIX is way too huge
17:15:04 <tzviya> example: http://schema.org/Book
17:15:22 <dauwhe> ... if there's already a group looking at mapping a subset of ONIX onto schema.org
17:15:47 <dauwhe> ... BISG is doing this, which is great
17:15:51 <dauwhe> ... so we shouldn't do it.
17:15:57 <dauwhe> ... let's wish them good luck
17:16:02 <dauwhe> ... and I'd be happy to help
17:16:11 <dauwhe> ... and use my contacts at schema.org
17:16:27 <dauwhe> ... so let's not set up Yet Another Group (YAG)
17:16:39 <tzviya> +1
17:16:58 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: This is for book trade onix metadata
17:17:09 <dauwhe> ivan: Graham, do you agree?
17:17:18 <dauwhe> Graham: yes, I do
17:17:26 <dauwhe> ... some input from this IG might be useful
17:17:34 <dauwhe> ... within bisg process
17:17:54 <dauwhe> ... no need to duplicate effort
17:17:59 <dauwhe> ivan: I'll help
17:18:03 <bradk_> bradk_ has joined #dpub
17:18:16 <dauwhe> mgylling: you seem to have expected this
17:18:26 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: my point is that lots of people are already doing work
17:18:34 <dauwhe> ... the focus on ONIX here is misguided
17:18:46 <dauwhe> ... the W3C spans all these interest groups (lowercase)
17:18:54 <dauwhe> ... libraries, commercial people, etc
17:19:00 <dauwhe> ... the web crosses all those areas
17:19:28 <dauwhe> ... if we exclude graham, the people at BISG are unaware of tim's work in library world with schema.org
17:19:34 <dauwhe> ... is there some matchmaking we can do?
17:19:41 <dauwhe> mgylling: is w3c the vehicle?
17:19:48 <dauwhe> ivan: we can't federate all these groups
17:19:57 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: w3c as intermediary
17:20:08 <dauwhe> ivan: lots of tech here around semantic web
17:20:15 <dauwhe> ... if issues come up
17:20:18 <tzviya> q?
17:20:23 <tzviya> q+
17:20:27 <dauwhe> ... then me as former semweb activity lead can help
17:20:36 <dauwhe> ... but for this IG we should stop
17:20:45 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: we can be responsive but can't do proactive work
17:20:49 <dauwhe> ivan: they are in driving seat
17:20:52 <glazou> glazou has joined #dpub
17:21:23 <Zakim> - +44.788.775.aaaa
17:21:25 <dauwhe> ... looking at RDF-ization of ONIX
17:21:41 <dauwhe> ... if there's an interest for it, it's not happening anywhere, it could happen here
17:22:02 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: Graham is supportive of this idea
17:22:09 <dauwhe> ivan: This is Graham's hobby
17:22:26 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: Graham is overloaded, an offer to help here could help
17:22:48 <dauwhe> mgylling: in the note, propose this as future activity?
17:22:56 <dauwhe> ivan: we should explore, not commit
17:23:09 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I want madi and tcole's perspective
17:23:24 <dauwhe> ... commercial pubs don't use or understand RDF
17:23:46 <dauwhe> madi: I think it's a great idea
17:24:09 <dauwhe> ivan: schema.org will never take whole of ONIX
17:24:20 <dauwhe> madi: I assume we're talking about RDFa
17:24:29 <dauwhe> ivan: RDFa is just an expression of an RDF model
17:24:38 <dauwhe> ... can be expressed in RDFa or JSON-LD
17:24:48 <dauwhe> ... it can use some terms that schema.org has
17:24:52 <dauwhe> ... but can't add terms
17:25:21 <dauwhe> madi: start with RDFization but consumable by schema.org
17:25:29 <dauwhe> ... i know creativework has book
17:25:38 <dauwhe> ... I've beenl playing with google rich snippets
17:25:56 <dauwhe> ... I want to take aspects of minimal book or publication, finding key metadata elements
17:26:07 <dauwhe> ... in a rich snippet that would automate RDF from ONIX
17:26:12 <dauwhe> ... just a sliver of a subset
17:26:28 <dauwhe> ivan: there is an order here that should be kept
17:26:36 <dauwhe> ... by mapping a subset of ONIX onto schema
17:26:43 <dauwhe> ... that means that subset is turned into RDF
17:26:58 <fettes> q+
17:27:00 <dauwhe> ... which means that a part of onix is already in RDF
17:27:08 <dauwhe> ... once that work is done by another group
17:27:20 <dauwhe> ... is there an interest in extending this to the whole of ONIX
17:27:38 <dauwhe> ... BISG will do subset
17:27:50 <dauwhe> ... then we can see if extending to whole model is feasible
17:28:03 <dauwhe> TCole: I agree with Ivan
17:28:14 <dauwhe> ... don't take legacy format and turn to effort
17:28:20 <dauwhe> ... effort with MARC was abandoned
17:28:34 <ivan> s/to effort/to RDF/
17:28:36 <dauwhe> ... effort with ??? is ongoing but problematic
17:28:46 <ivan> s/???/Bibframe/
17:29:03 <dauwhe> ... most successful has been map traditional library to schema.org and let some  things go
17:29:12 <dauwhe> ... same thing would happen with onix
17:29:15 <ivan> Bibframe: http://bibframe.org
17:29:25 <dauwhe> ... some of onix you might not want in schema.org
17:29:33 <mgylling> q?
17:29:48 <dauwhe> ???: from books that I see
17:29:52 <dauwhe> ... looking at EPUB
17:30:01 <dauwhe> ... has vast metadata like DAISY terms
17:30:06 <tzviya> s/???/fettes
17:30:07 <dauwhe> ... and name/value pairs
17:30:11 <dauwhe> ... it's all random
17:30:20 <dauwhe> ... there's rich language that no one uses
17:30:23 <dauwhe> q+
17:30:31 <tzviya> ack fettes
17:30:39 <ivan> Present+ 	 Allastair Fettes
17:30:40 <dauwhe> ... identifier is most important thing and we don't trust it
17:30:59 <dauwhe> ... we can shoehorn interesting information into OPF file
17:31:14 <dauwhe> ... it's just using meta name of property
17:31:24 <dauwhe> ... you can have registry of roles
17:31:28 <dauwhe> ... ibooks:version
17:31:48 <dauwhe> ... using vendor prefix then push to standard
17:31:55 <dauwhe> tzviya: you're talking about package metadata
17:32:06 <dauwhe> ... but we're supplying you with ONIX which is better metadata
17:32:08 <dauwhe> q-
17:32:21 <dauwhe> ... the amazon metadata is from ONIX
17:32:26 <dauwhe> ... that stuff is updated
17:32:43 <dauwhe> fettes: so book metadata is orphaned
17:33:01 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: we have same disconnect between commercial and library world
17:33:27 <dauwhe> ... ??? made a comment about not getting article metadata about journals
17:33:31 <tzviya> q-
17:33:33 <astein> *Ayla
17:33:40 <dauwhe> ... because the systems are focused on titles and issues
17:33:53 <dauwhe> ... so the publisher has the metadata, but the article metadata is stripped out
17:34:14 <dauwhe> ... by the metadata handoffs through intermediaries
17:34:20 <dkaplan3> q+
17:34:28 <dauwhe> ... lots of what in ONIX doesn't get to MARC (for example)
17:34:40 <dauwhe> ... so library doesn't get rich metadata, even though publisher created it
17:34:50 <astein> q+
17:34:56 <mgylling> q?
17:35:02 <dauwhe> ... they have OCLC MARC record, but they have another one with lots of publisher metadata
17:35:38 <dkaplan3> q-
17:35:52 <mgylling> ack astein
17:35:58 <astein> maybe
17:35:59 <astein> sorry!
17:36:04 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: we need to move on
17:36:24 <dauwhe> ... the proposal with item one is that we should not pursue ONIX in schema.org
17:36:28 <dauwhe> ... just be resource to BISG
17:36:49 <dauwhe> ... don't want to complicate that one with Ivan's suggestion of RDFization of all of ONIX
17:37:05 <dauwhe> ... so we won't pursue #1
17:37:25 <dauwhe> ... #2 gets at one aspect of Alistair's consistent use of identifiers
17:37:40 <dauwhe> ... let's separate those issues
17:37:52 <dauwhe> ... so we separate proper use of identifiers with URI
17:38:05 <dauwhe> ... is that the business of this group? Education?
17:38:17 <dauwhe> ivan: we collect existing documents
17:38:31 <dauwhe> ... there's an RDFa primer
17:38:41 <dauwhe> ... there's a ??? URIs
17:38:47 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/
17:39:01 <dauwhe> ... the issue is not covered, but the first thing is to collect those resources
17:39:04 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/cooluris/
17:39:09 <dauwhe> ... and then consider whether there's somthing missing
17:39:17 <dauwhe> s/???/cool uris/
17:39:23 <tzviya> s/???/cool
17:39:45 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: what do we need to do?
17:40:07 <dauwhe> ... can we assign some folks to look at this issue and report back?
17:40:25 <dauwhe> ivan: if at the end of that and some things that are not covered, this group can write more documents
17:40:31 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: +1
17:41:07 <dauwhe> Action: Bill_Kasdorf to lead activity of collating existing resources of best practices for RDFa
17:41:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-37 - Lead activity of collating existing resources of best practices for rdfa [on Bill Kasdorf - due 2014-11-07].
17:41:20 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: call for volunteers
17:41:43 <dauwhe> ... email Bill K. if you want to participate
17:41:56 <dauwhe> ... do we need similar activity on use of URI
17:42:03 <dauwhe> ivan: it's one thing
17:42:16 <astein> Technical difficulties - I just wanted to add on to Bill's comment about publisher metadata earlier and the loss of information from the complicated ecosystem, that the worst offenders are from Open Access Journal publishers.
17:42:38 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: the difference with URI issue is engaging with users of identifiers like crossref, editeur,
17:43:02 <tzviya> q+
17:43:05 <dauwhe> ... get unanimity from governance groups to express to their users to use their identifiers as URIs
17:43:10 <dauwhe> ivan: there's disagreement
17:43:19 <dauwhe> ... on how to handle this
17:43:28 <dauwhe> ... for many they don't understand why this is important
17:43:34 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: they are realizing
17:43:41 <dauwhe> ivan: crossref is recognizing this
17:43:53 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: update to ISBN has expanded guidance on this
17:43:54 <bobtung> bobtung has joined #dpub
17:44:04 <dauwhe> ivan: it's not just issue of having URI
17:44:13 <dauwhe> ... but what happens when I try to dereference
17:44:18 <dauwhe> ... there there are disagreements
17:44:27 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I want separate group on thaat
17:44:35 <dauwhe> ivan: Phil Archer will want to participate
17:44:42 <dauwhe> ... he's activity lead for data
17:45:06 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: do I have the leeway to extend scope as far as I am able to?
17:45:21 <dauwhe> ... I know CA data library site which uses DOI
17:45:29 <dauwhe> ... can I bring them into conversation?
17:45:37 <dauwhe> ivan: I know people at Data Site
17:45:49 <dauwhe> ... they are not as clearly using DOIs as URIs like crossref
17:45:58 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: it's separate registration agency
17:46:06 <tzviya> ack tzviya
17:46:12 <dauwhe> ivan: we want DOIs as URI, I'm not sure if Data Site does this
17:46:19 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's document first
17:46:29 <dauwhe> ... there are a lots of organizations
17:46:46 <dauwhe> ... let's pull them together at some point
17:46:57 <dauwhe> ... i think of that as stage two
17:47:09 <dauwhe> ... I talked to Phil ARcher about this, he'll have a lot to say
17:47:19 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I see both action items as information gathering
17:47:25 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's finish something
17:47:48 <dauwhe> mgylling: the action is registered
17:47:54 <dauwhe> ... the marching orders seem clear
17:48:05 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: and we separate the two
17:48:28 <bradk_> bradk_ has joined #dpub
17:48:52 <dauwhe> Action: Bill_Kasdorf to develope comprehensive list of identifiers that should be expressed as URIs and contact governance organizations to find current recommendations
17:48:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-38 - Develope comprehensive list of identifiers that should be expressed as uris and contact governance organizations to find current recommendations [on Bill Kasdorf - due 2014-11-07].
17:49:10 <gbell> gbell has joined #dpub
17:49:20 <bobtung_> bobtung_ has joined #dpub
17:49:22 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: didn't get much feedback on github
17:49:33 <dauwhe> ... rights metadata is important
17:49:40 <dauwhe> ... expressing in actionable way
17:49:45 <dauwhe> .. they have two interests
17:49:58 <dauwhe> ... one is how can I know at a granular level that I have the right to do X
17:50:05 <dauwhe> ... can I use a print image in my ebook?
17:50:11 <dauwhe> ... goes beyond that to IP
17:50:20 <dauwhe> ... other question is how to monetize my IP
17:50:33 <dauwhe> ... how can I express rights on components of documents
17:50:42 <dauwhe> ... lets me police usage
17:50:51 <dauwhe> ... can I license rights to this thing?
17:50:59 <dauwhe> ... particularly important with images
17:51:03 <ivan> q+
17:51:10 <dauwhe> ... we're working with life magazine photo archive
17:51:23 <dauwhe> ... they were losing lots of money every year
17:51:28 <tzviya> q+
17:51:40 <dauwhe> ... intersects with royalty payments
17:52:03 <dauwhe> ... lots of folks working on this like IPTC
17:52:11 <dauwhe> ... working with W3C
17:52:14 <Karen_> q+
17:52:17 <dauwhe> ... ODRL and RightsML
17:52:41 <dauwhe> ... BISG has a new priority to look at this from author and agent perspective
17:52:57 <mgylling> q?
17:53:11 <dauwhe> ... IDEAlliance has three components: contractual, usage, monitoring
17:53:26 <dauwhe> ... we might be able to help
17:53:38 <dauwhe> ... create an infrastructure in web tech
17:53:52 <mgylling> ack ivan
17:53:58 <dauwhe> ivan: you scare me
17:54:07 <dauwhe> ... rights metadata
17:54:16 <dauwhe> ... there were only CGs at W3C
17:54:21 <dauwhe> ... it's not technical
17:54:31 <dauwhe> ... you need lawyers
17:54:54 <dauwhe> ... and we don't have lawyers
17:55:06 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I'm thinking infrastructure
17:55:18 <dauwhe> ivan: setting up another CG can be done
17:55:32 <dauwhe> ... you need to talk to people who are already doing it
17:55:37 <dauwhe> ... I don't know what they would say
17:55:45 <Zakim> - +1.217.721.aabb
17:55:51 <dauwhe> ... to turn it into w3c work item is a different thing
17:56:12 <dauwhe> ... if you have a CG then W3C does not endorse work
17:56:33 <dauwhe> ... results may leave CG and go into other parts of W3C
17:56:46 <dauwhe> ... endorsement in legal sphere is very tricky
17:57:03 <dauwhe> Karen_: DOn't know about any work in this area
17:57:21 <dauwhe> liam_: you must distinguish between rights identification and rights management
17:57:26 <Karen_> s/Don't know about any work in this area at W3C
17:57:44 <dauwhe> liam_: RDF says who the author is
17:57:51 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: but doesn't describe contract
17:58:21 <dauwhe> liam_: I agree with Ivan that finding a way of describing moral rights internationally in RDF, XML, or animated cat GIFs is scary
17:58:34 <dauwhe> ... won't be achievable
17:58:54 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I'm learning that my tendancy to bring siloed people together isn't a good fit for w3c
17:58:57 <dauwhe> ivan: I don't agree
17:59:04 <dauwhe> ... we can bring together different parties
17:59:10 <dauwhe> ... OA group started that way
17:59:17 <astein> Question: something like the Creative Commons licenses beyond the open access sphere but expanded to a metadata scheme?
17:59:22 <dauwhe> ... lots of discussion to bring people together
17:59:31 <dauwhe> ... is a success now
17:59:47 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: started with OA CG, now a WG
17:59:50 <dauwhe> ivan: yes
18:00:08 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: is there a role for this IG in that?
18:00:58 <mgylling> q?
18:01:22 <Karen_> q_
18:01:25 <Karen_> q-
18:01:32 <astein> Yes!
18:01:34 <astein> that's Ayla
18:01:50 <astein> I'm having microphone issues
18:01:55 <astein> I'm just trying to clarify
18:02:02 <ivan> Present+ Ayla_Stein
18:02:08 <dauwhe> Karen_: copyright clearance center does this
18:02:17 <dauwhe> ... they are member of this group
18:02:24 <dauwhe> ... talk to her
18:02:32 <dauwhe> ivan: CC in one sense is good example
18:02:44 <dauwhe> ... all licenses are espressed in RDF
18:02:50 <dauwhe> ... they helped start RDFa
18:03:03 <dauwhe> ... they way they worked is with lawyers
18:03:16 <dauwhe> ... it's legal issues and not technical issues
18:03:23 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: liam, could you rephrase
18:03:37 <dauwhe> liam_: rights identification but not rights management
18:03:53 <dauwhe> ... legal issues in both parts
18:04:11 <dauwhe> tzviya: will need lawyer to help with tagging
18:04:18 <dauwhe> ivan: you need international lawyers
18:04:26 <dauwhe> liam_: I run stock image company
18:04:37 <dauwhe> ... I scan out-of-copyright books
18:04:54 <dauwhe> ... wikipedia articles about law are not by lawyers
18:05:04 <dauwhe> ... copyright articles are similar
18:05:05 <astein> Could we invite ALA's OITP or a Copyright/Intellectual Property/Law Librarian to collaborate on this?
18:05:35 <dauwhe> ... legal landscape is changing rapidly
18:05:52 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: whether or not have this as potential activity
18:06:20 <dauwhe> ... do we want to include an activity that would try to bring together groups working on rights
18:06:39 <ivan> q+
18:06:41 <dauwhe> q+
18:06:46 <tzviya> ack tzviya
18:06:52 <ivan> ack tzviya
18:06:58 <dauwhe> tzviya: this is one example of granular metadata
18:07:04 <dauwhe> ... if we form a CG about this
18:07:13 <dauwhe> ... we might have to for every other sort of granular metadata
18:07:23 <glazou> glazou has joined #dpub
18:07:24 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: this is picking something to focus on that's important
18:07:40 <dauwhe> tzviya: the other possibility is that this can be addressed by annotations
18:07:43 <dauwhe> ivan: no
18:07:56 <dauwhe> ... annotations give you framework to express something, but not what to express
18:08:05 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: interoperability is the important thing
18:08:17 <dauwhe> ... it's so random it's not interoperable
18:08:24 <mgylling> q?
18:08:30 <mgylling> ack ivan
18:08:30 <dauwhe> ... w3c can build infrastructure to make it interoperable
18:08:43 <astein> or IFLA to get this advice
18:08:50 <dauwhe> ivan: having a CG that tries to reconcile these different vocabularies is a useful thing
18:08:55 <madi> q+
18:09:07 <dauwhe> ... to form that CG someone needs to get these partners to accept to work together
18:09:19 <dauwhe> ... that somebody would be Bill Kasdorf
18:09:29 <dauwhe> ... whether you need backing of IG to do that is up to you
18:09:45 <dauwhe> ... that's where IG would stop
18:09:59 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: let me suggest this
18:10:07 <dauwhe> ... if there's an interest in this group
18:10:14 <dauwhe> ... is it worth spending my time on?
18:10:23 <dauwhe> ... I am in touch with these people
18:10:59 <dauwhe> tzviya: none of those people are involved in this group
18:11:03 <dauwhe> ivan: except heather
18:11:16 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: BISG is also active in this group
18:11:35 <dauwhe> ... there are stakeholders in those groups who may be w3c members
18:11:39 <mgylling> ack dauwhe
18:11:44 <dauwhe> ... IPTC has thomson reuters
18:12:13 <gbell_> gbell_ has joined #dpub
18:12:32 <tzviya> dauwhe: this has taken a lot of time today and will take a lot of time if we invest time
18:12:39 <mgylling> ack liam
18:12:39 <Zakim> liam_, you wanted to say expression facility might be OK for publisher-provided info
18:12:50 <dauwhe> liam: I'd like to retract further
18:12:58 <dauwhe> ... we had the web fonts work
18:13:03 <dauwhe> ... there are some similar issues
18:13:09 <tzviya> ...we are a group that supports incorporating into web and can help once these groups figure out how they will work together
18:13:14 <dauwhe> ... the font companies had to come to an agreement about font piracy
18:13:35 <dauwhe> ... people would download fonts intentionally or unintentionally
18:13:44 <dauwhe> ... what we did was two-fold
18:13:54 <dauwhe> ... WOFF fonts dont' work as desktop font
18:14:12 <dauwhe> ... you'd have to use program, which is legal evidence of willful intent
18:14:30 <dauwhe> ... it's like a fence around a swimming pool, which is an attractive nuisance in legal technology
18:14:41 <dauwhe> ... by showing willful intent, then you can prosecute
18:14:56 <dauwhe> ... and there is metadata in the fonts that includes info about the EULA
18:15:08 <dauwhe> ... there is metadata in there that expresses rights
18:15:18 <dauwhe> ... but we didn't talk about the interpretation of those rights
18:15:25 <dauwhe> ... which were in XML by the way
18:15:33 <dauwhe> ... but we don't say anthing about it
18:15:40 <dauwhe> ... that could go a long way to being useful
18:15:45 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: that's a useful analogy
18:15:51 <dauwhe> liam: that is the first point
18:16:05 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: that outreach may not be about some major diplomatic effort
18:16:13 <dauwhe> ... but that we know you're working on this issue
18:16:19 <dauwhe> ... but are there issues with the web?
18:16:40 <dauwhe> ... this is why it's a metadata question--do we have a mechanism for associating metadata?
18:16:58 <dauwhe> ivan: in case of WOFF, there were issues with how to package fonts
18:17:12 <dauwhe> ... that's not the case here. We know where to put metadata if we have vocab
18:17:29 <dauwhe> ... but the vocab is what we don't have, and it's a translation of legal terms
18:17:34 <dauwhe> ... epub has too much metadata
18:17:48 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: epub can have rights metadata
18:18:03 <dauwhe> ivan: it's not up to us to restrict what metadata you can use
18:18:16 <dauwhe> liam: if you look at fonts in firefox, it has areas to display metadata
18:18:24 <dauwhe> ... whether it's worth going there I don't know
18:18:31 <mgylling> q?
18:18:34 <mgylling> ack madi
18:18:36 <dauwhe> ... rights expression CG can bring interesting peopoe
18:18:46 <dauwhe> madi: it is a huge headache
18:18:57 <dauwhe> ... if we succeed we'd accomplish something huge
18:19:02 <dauwhe> ... but I don't think it's likely
18:19:16 <dauwhe> ... lawyers don't think legal expression can be standardized
18:19:25 <dauwhe> ... so they resist these vocabularies
18:19:46 <dauwhe> ... maybe a CG with low expectations?
18:19:56 <dauwhe> ... we can't do anything in a year
18:20:10 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: IDEAlliance is establishing a vocab to do three things
18:20:18 <dauwhe> ... one: do you have rights? Y/N
18:20:34 <dauwhe> ... two: you have rights under condition
18:20:39 <dauwhe> ... third: consult the lawyer
18:20:53 <dauwhe> tzviya: that would be insufficient for most publishers
18:21:06 <dauwhe> ... due to restrictions like fixed durations and so on
18:21:12 <dauwhe> ... this is too out of schope
18:21:16 <dauwhe> s/schope/scope/
18:21:32 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I just think this is important
18:21:49 <dauwhe> liam: if you make a CG I'll be in it
18:22:13 <astein> conference ribbons
18:22:15 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: is that OK with you?
18:22:22 <dauwhe> madi: we're working on it here for years
18:22:33 <dauwhe> ... haven't moved the needle very far
18:22:45 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:22:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html ivan
18:22:51 <dauwhe> mgylling: if your friends want to do a CG that's fine
18:23:04 <dauwhe> mgylling: I think we're about to end the session
18:23:12 <dauwhe> ... do you want other suggestions?
18:23:51 <dauwhe> ivan: let's be realistic. to do both URI and RDF outreach docs is already a tall order
18:23:57 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: and those would be good outcomes
18:24:08 <dauwhe> tzviya: we already have enough to do
18:24:13 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: is there consensus?
18:24:15 <dauwhe> all: yes
18:24:25 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: so we'll focus on these
18:24:38 <dauwhe> mgylling: it's 11:24, we're re-convening at 1PM
18:25:10 <dauwhe> mgylling: cindy and richard will come at 3PM
18:25:19 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:25:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html ivan
18:25:28 <dauwhe> break type="lunch"
18:25:35 <Zakim> -astein
18:25:55 <Zakim> -madi
18:35:36 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub
18:38:49 <bradk_> bradk_ has joined #dpub
18:39:36 <brady_duga> brady_duga has joined #dpub
18:42:03 <ivan> ivan has joined #dpub
18:42:57 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub
18:44:54 <bradk__> bradk__ has joined #dpub
18:46:56 <ivan_> ivan_ has joined #dpub
18:47:41 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #dpub
19:21:12 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #dpub
19:27:01 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #dpub
19:30:59 <bradk__> bradk__ has joined #dpub
19:35:35 <iank_> iank_ has joined #dpub
19:38:28 <ivan> ivan has joined #dpub
19:45:54 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub
19:46:49 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #dpub
19:47:22 <bradk__> bradk__ has joined #dpub
19:55:11 <pkra> pkra has joined #dpub
19:57:11 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #dpub
19:58:48 <ivan> Topic: Accessibility (meeting with UUAG)
19:58:56 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
19:58:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Seattle
19:58:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see mgylling, pkra, bradk__, dauwhe, tzviya, ivan, iank_, ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, mihnea_____, astearns, dkaplan3, rego, plinss, trackbot
20:00:14 <bjdmeest> bjdmeest has joined #dpub
20:00:41 <Jan> Jan has joined #dpub
20:01:04 <Zakim> +pkra
20:01:06 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
20:02:32 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:02:35 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #DPUB
20:02:56 <ivan> Present+ Jeanne_Spellman
20:03:50 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben De Meester
20:03:57 <ivan> scribenick: bjdmeest
20:04:26 <brady_duga> brady_duga has joined #dpub
20:05:58 <bjdmeest> mgylling: the plan is for Deborah to update us
20:06:10 <bjdmeest> [introductions]
20:06:12 <Jan> zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jutta
20:06:13 <Zakim> +Jutta; got it
20:06:52 <Jan> Jan Richards
20:07:14 <jongund> jongund has joined #dpub
20:07:29 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #dpub
20:08:18 <Jan> Jutta Treviranus
20:08:48 <pkra> Present+ Peter Krautzberger
20:08:55 <Bill_Kasdorf> Robin Seaman
20:09:06 <Jutta> Jutta has joined #DPUB
20:09:25 <bjdmeest> mgylling: Deborah, would you recap the previous descussions, to get everyone up to date?
20:09:28 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
20:09:32 <ivan> Present+ Susann_Keohane
20:09:35 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: there were a couple of meetings
20:09:43 <bjdmeest> ... about: what should we do?
20:09:55 <bjdmeest> ... Charles and I became heads of the accessibility task force
20:10:27 <Jutta> Jutta Treviranus, Chair WAI ATAG, Director Inclusive Design Research Centre, OCAD University
20:10:36 <bjdmeest> ... together with others: they would explain how they would work about accessiblility
20:10:59 <bjdmeest> ... they have been looking at techniques: this is fine, this is not (needs expanding)
20:11:31 <bjdmeest> ???: they got a lot of puswhback by W3C, wanted more use cases
20:11:44 <dauwhe> s/???/clapierre/
20:11:50 <tzviya> s/???/clapierre
20:11:58 <clapierre1> clapierre1 has joined #DPUB
20:12:03 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: so, our idea is to start that process for digital publishing, mirrorring that effort
20:12:04 <jeanne> s/puswhback by W3C/pushback by W3C WCAG WG
20:12:13 <liam> liam has joined #dpub
20:12:27 <bjdmeest> ... question: what would be most helpfull when we start that process?
20:12:55 <bjdmeest> Jan: we deal with any tool that is used by authors in order to produce a webbased experience for another user (def authoring tool)
20:13:10 <bjdmeest> ... not considering changing your own experience
20:13:34 <bjdmeest> ... a lot of experience, guidelines, with a wide variety (plugins, CMS, Dreamweaver, blogs...)
20:13:45 <bjdmeest> ... we think DPUB is covered, so a review would be usefull
20:13:53 <bjdmeest> ... there is a ref doc, examples
20:14:00 <bjdmeest> ... so DPUB examples would be very useful
20:14:14 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/IMPLEMENTING-ATAG20/
20:14:21 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: If we wanted to look into DPUB examples, or existing examples?
20:14:30 <jeanne> also Overview of ATAG -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/atag-glance.php
20:14:44 <bjdmeest> Jan: we have something like: have checks for accessibility, varies a whole lot
20:15:00 <bjdmeest> ... we don't do techniques, but we provide examples of what if might look like
20:15:20 <tzviya> q?
20:15:30 <bjdmeest> ... there was an old document about techniques, but there was confusion, so we changed the name to 'implementing'
20:15:56 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: if we look into those documents, and find stuff that might be expanded, how to do that?
20:16:48 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #dpub
20:16:55 <bjdmeest> Jan: what will hopefully happen, is that we get new examples for DPUB (nicely explained) for success criteria eg 3.1.1, and that will be put into the doc, gets into new publication (this doc is a note)
20:17:05 <bjdmeest> ... there is no deadline
20:17:13 <bjdmeest> ... the doc is called Implementing ATAG
20:17:18 <bjdmeest> ... ATAG has 2 main parts
20:17:36 <bjdmeest> ... what should you do in content to make that content rendered accessible?
20:17:54 <bjdmeest> part A: author interface needs to be accessible
20:18:34 <bjdmeest> part B: production accessibility
20:19:09 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #dpub
20:19:49 <bjdmeest> Jan: it is more important for the used tools to support accessibility, then that a group publishes accessibility guidelines
20:20:20 <fettes> fettes has joined #dpub
20:20:46 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
20:20:50 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: how do you make an interface accessible?
20:21:08 <bjdmeest> Jan: most will involve part A, our first guideline is: meet WCAG
20:21:22 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: are there specific needs for DPUB about what is produced?
20:21:37 <bjdmeest> ... is at the publishers level
20:21:48 <bjdmeest> Jan: consumers are tool devs (microsoft, adobe, ...)
20:22:12 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: the reason why this is relevant, because a lot of tools are built inhouse, to meet publishing needs
20:22:29 <marcjohlic_> marcjohlic_ has joined #dpub
20:22:30 <bjdmeest> ... not just aimed at generic content, aimed at workflow
20:22:57 <bjdmeest> Jan: if you read the doc, so many support the ease of user experience
20:23:12 <bjdmeest> ... if tools are not accessible, a human is needed to fix stuff later on
20:23:32 <bjdmeest> ... if you are creating a long description, that needs to be stored and reused as much as possible
20:23:42 <tzviya> q+
20:23:56 <fjh> fjh has joined #dpub
20:24:05 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: that is mostly what i think about in DPUB: creators have a vast amount of images, the company that is creating the tool has no idea how to tag those images
20:24:19 <bjdmeest> ... that is a unique req
20:24:21 <mgylling> q?
20:24:24 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #dpub
20:24:43 <bjdmeest> Jan: You won't find something like: content HAS to comply to... that is impossible to enforce.
20:24:55 <bjdmeest> ... we try to flexible on the design of the doc
20:24:56 <mgylling> ack tzviya
20:25:40 <bjdmeest> tzviya: if worked for a publisher for 14 years, where would this fit? because I have never encountered something like this, eg, an image _must_ have an alt text
20:25:49 <bjdmeest> Jan: it is more about guidelines, not rules
20:26:13 <bjdmeest> ... eg not a government legislation (thou shalt not)
20:26:24 <bjdmeest> tzviya: not even a guideline encountered
20:26:46 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: eg, word does do grammatic checking, but no accessible checking
20:27:09 <bjdmeest> Jan: they do have an accessibility checker, hard to turn on, but it exists
20:27:24 <bjdmeest> tzviya: point is that publishers probably don't know about this
20:27:32 <bjdmeest> Jan: this doc is aimed to tool devs
20:27:53 <bjdmeest> ... why use tooling: to hide ugly details
20:28:03 <bjdmeest> ... we say: there is an extra accessible layer on top
20:28:12 <dkaplan3> q+
20:28:17 <bjdmeest> jeanne: the text book publishers are going to be more aware of this
20:28:31 <bjdmeest> tzviya: i am part, no they are not
20:28:38 <bjdmeest> jeanne: there are legal requirements
20:28:48 <bjdmeest> Jan: ATAG is not well know compared to WCAG
20:28:59 <ivan> Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
20:29:16 <bjdmeest> Jeanne: there are legal reqs for eg students with disabilities, we try to make it easier for people to do the right thing
20:29:26 <fjh> fjh has joined #dpub
20:29:27 <bjdmeest> ... there is a big market for accessibility
20:29:36 <mgylling> ack dkaplan
20:29:40 <bjdmeest> ... an opportunity
20:29:58 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: is ATAG only intended for the authoring tools, or also for the conversion tools?
20:30:18 <bjdmeest> Jan: it does talk about conversion, section about conserving accessibility, sometimes that cannot be fully automated
20:30:33 <bjdmeest> ... sometimes, prompts are needed, human intervention
20:30:35 <pkra> wordpress and OERpub editor are good examples for simple approaches with high "conversion rates" (i..e, making users actually input the content)
20:31:11 <bjdmeest> ... we call those: recoding transformations, there is also structural transformations, and 'pretty print' transformations
20:31:31 <bjdmeest> mgylling: you are in CR, ammending to the current doc is not an issue?
20:31:33 <bjdmeest> Jan: correct
20:31:55 <bjdmeest> mgylling: dkaplan, you wanted to add to this doc?
20:32:00 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: yes, mostly examples
20:32:08 <bjdmeest> mgylling: what is the concrete approach?
20:32:10 <bradk__> bradk__ has joined #dpub
20:32:40 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: after talking to cathy and kim, asking: how much time into this? amswer: 2-8 hours a week
20:33:10 <bjdmeest> ... they wanted as much accessibility in there as possible, very explicit workflow (why do we change something)
20:33:34 <bjdmeest> Jan: techniques are special in WCAG, sufficient techniques, advisory techniques,
20:33:41 <bjdmeest> ... there is more process around that
20:33:58 <bjdmeest> ... ;you would just send us examples, and then it is published
20:34:17 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: there should be a wordsmith expert
20:34:24 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #dpub
20:34:33 <bjdmeest> ... there was a lot of misunderstanding the specific language for a specific framework
20:34:39 <bjdmeest> ... we need help on that for WCAG
20:34:45 <mgylling> q?
20:35:05 <bjdmeest> Jeanne: idea: why not just write a note: DPUB using ATAG and/or accessibility guideline practices
20:35:15 <bjdmeest> ... you could focus on DPUB, relevant to the process
20:35:24 <bjdmeest> ... then you have a single linking point
20:35:37 <bjdmeest> ... and it would be _your_ note, without fuzziness of language
20:35:53 <bjdmeest> ... and it can refer to ATAG, WCAG, ...
20:36:19 <bjdmeest> ... people could go to that one, in DPUB speak
20:36:21 <fjh> fjh has joined #dpub
20:36:22 <jongund_> jongund_ has joined #dpub
20:37:01 <bjdmeest> mgylling: about fixed-layout ebooks: in accessibility, it might be horrible (tool that exports fixed epub is horrible)
20:37:16 <bjdmeest> ... contextualized note could go very deep into this
20:38:13 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: [superseded notices is not clear]
20:38:27 <bjdmeest> ... would a separate note get the right attention
20:38:36 <bjdmeest> clapierre: could there be a dual link from ATAG
20:38:45 <bjdmeest> Jan: we could
20:38:59 <bjdmeest> ... we know about fixed layout
20:39:26 <bjdmeest> ... a remark: ATAG doesn't judge (what a flash tool?! shame on you!), it guides the user as much as possible
20:39:32 <mgylling> q?
20:40:00 <bjdmeest> Bill_Kasdorf: our role is evangelizing this stuff, as we are part of a big organization, we will make sure that this separate note gets attention
20:40:12 <bjdmeest> mgylling: mobile folks didn't chose a separate note?
20:40:38 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: DPUB is a specific industry, whereas mobile is part of the product of every kind of industry
20:40:44 <bjdmeest> .. they are not the same
20:41:08 <bjdmeest> clapierre: we will run into the same issues (ereader on your desktop vs on your tablet, etc)
20:41:47 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/our role/the role of the BISG Accessibility Working Group
20:41:49 <bjdmeest> Jan: they kind of melt together (responsive design), it did make sense to do what they did
20:42:10 <fjh_> fjh_ has joined #dpub
20:42:12 <bjdmeest> dkaplan; we should be very carefull, if we create our own note
20:42:29 <tzviya> q?
20:42:32 <bjdmeest> ... it should use the 'approved' language
20:42:50 <bjdmeest> clapierre: there may be issues that, where a note is not enough
20:43:14 <bjdmeest> ... eg, image of a drop cap must be spoken out by a11y tools correctly
20:43:21 <bjdmeest> ... we might go up to W3C standard
20:43:34 <bjdmeest> Jan: I would love example of DPUB for inclusion into our doc
20:43:51 <bjdmeest> mgylling: the more propagation, the better, the higher we get, the more discoverability
20:44:15 <bjdmeest> ???: what about Oreilly Atlas? a11y platforms?
20:44:24 <bjdmeest> Jan: that would be part A of our doc
20:44:35 <tzviya> s/???/Robin Seaman
20:44:39 <bjdmeest> ... the biggest barrier is attitude
20:45:00 <mgylling> ack liam
20:45:00 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to pint out fixed layout might make a useful example of a challenge
20:45:04 <bjdmeest> ... positive feedback loop is good
20:45:07 <Jutta> virtuous cycle
20:45:27 <bjdmeest> liam: about fixed layout: two kinds
20:45:35 <bjdmeest> 1: ipad: every page is a bmp
20:46:03 <bjdmeest> ... without judging, fixed layout is a challenge, good example for a11y
20:46:32 <bjdmeest> ... drop cap is another (css mech for that now, improves a11y), but tools are lagging
20:46:43 <bjdmeest> dhauwe: there are still problems
20:47:12 <bjdmeest> liam: someone with a11y needs using an authoring tool, vs creating a11y content
20:47:28 <bjdmeest> Jan: you can have non-a11y tools that produce a11y content, and vice versa
20:47:37 <liam> [2 - svg]
20:47:44 <mgylling> q?
20:48:03 <xiaoqian> xiaoqian has joined #dpub
20:48:04 <bjdmeest> Bill_Kasdorf: is there any sort of validator for a11y?
20:48:48 <bjdmeest> Jan: there is a mix: tools that return report using a server, integrated tools (eg Word)
20:49:14 <bjdmeest> Bill_Kasdorf: there is a master EPUB checker, independent of the tools, is there something authorative like that?
20:49:28 <bjdmeest> Jan: yes, eg EMWeave
20:49:53 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: that is actually impossible
20:50:01 <bjdmeest> ... epubcheck is something like doing a checksum
20:50:11 <pkra> it does a bit more these days... suggestions on code quality.
20:50:38 <bjdmeest> Jan: not so different than spelling and grammar, they flag for human judgement
20:50:41 <Jutta> checking after authoring is also not as useful as prompting and checking during authoring
20:50:49 <bjdmeest> ... closer to that than validity checking
20:50:59 <mgylling> q?
20:51:10 <fettes> q+
20:51:52 <bjdmeest> ... everybody needs to know some, there are also some experts out there
20:52:12 <bjdmeest> Jeanne: there are a11y checkers for HTML, to talk to them for an EPUB a11y checker
20:52:41 <Jutta> an example of integrated checking in EPub is Open Author
20:52:59 <mgylling> ack fettes
20:53:04 <bjdmeest> ... somthings can be flagged for humans to check, some things can be automated
20:53:33 <bjdmeest> fettes: ebpucheck is nice, but if you use a tool that creates epubs, if that is a wrong epub, you have a problem
20:53:43 <dkaplan3> q+
20:53:46 <bjdmeest> ... iBooks uses warnings
20:54:08 <bjdmeest> ... checker should be integrated into the tool
20:54:42 <bjdmeest> mgylling: to take away: the separate note thing
20:54:57 <murakami> murakami has joined #dpub
20:55:04 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: more take away: we should also keep you guys in the loop
20:55:19 <bjdmeest> ... so stuff might be incorporated into the ATAG document
20:55:50 <bjdmeest> clapierre: we will get going, an hour a week, we will pull you guys in, some point or another
20:55:55 <bjdmeest> Jan: okay
20:55:55 <mgylling> q?
20:56:31 <bjdmeest> mgylling: BISG does something about a11y for fixed layout?
20:56:34 <bjdmeest> mgylling: yes
20:56:41 <bjdmeest> ... i wrote that section
20:57:14 <bjdmeest> dhauwe: mostly warnings, how users deal with that, is their choice
20:57:29 <bjdmeest> mgylling: we should make sure there are no parallel notes out there
20:57:38 <dauwhe> s/dhauwe/dauwhe/
20:57:49 <bjdmeest> Bill_kasdorf: agreed, no duplication (there is already a lot of duplicate stuff)
20:58:03 <bjdmeest> ... we will not add to the problem, we will try to shine a light
20:58:12 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: could someone of that group join us?
20:58:17 <bjdmeest> tzviya: I can
20:58:24 <bjdmeest> Robin: me too
20:58:40 <bjdmeest> mgylling: thanks y'all!
20:58:41 <pkra> clap clap
20:59:01 <Zakim> -pkra
21:01:05 <jongund> jongund has joined #dpub
21:05:59 <glazou> glazou has joined #dpub
21:07:37 <Zakim> -Jutta
21:14:18 <ivan> Present+ Xiaoqian_Wu
21:14:32 <ivan> Topic: Planning for the future of the IG
21:15:28 <murakami> murakami has joined #dpub
21:15:34 <bjdmeest> mgylling: talk about actions items, and logistics
21:16:11 <Karen> Karen has joined #dpub
21:16:30 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #dpub
21:16:37 <bjdmeest> ... to make sure actions and marching orders are clear
21:16:50 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #dpub
21:17:09 <bjdmeest> karen: i want to mention: converations with other global regions (ie, indian publishing community)
21:17:17 <bjdmeest> ... could be short agenda item
21:17:37 <bjdmeest> topic: pagination
21:18:00 <bjdmeest> tzviya: adding section about spread behaviour at latin req
21:18:26 <bjdmeest> ... marcus and liam will have a fun time creating the page layout req
21:18:37 <bjdmeest> ... I will give pdf examples of paginated content
21:19:07 <bjdmeest> dauwhe: I can triage them, we may need to decide how to communicate the insights they will provide
21:19:17 <bjdmeest> ivan: we can put the big ones on the W3C site
21:19:28 <bjdmeest> dauwhe: or in scope for latin req
21:19:41 <bjdmeest> ... could be small snippets
21:19:55 <bjdmeest> tzviya: I will do small snippets (1-2 pages)
21:20:02 <bjdmeest> liam: is this in scope for paged layout?
21:20:14 <liam> http://kesselstreet.tripod.com/notmine/absolute_learning.gif
21:20:59 <bjdmeest> tzviya: bus/business use case is for Karen
21:21:08 <bjdmeest> ivan: Karen will collect, everyone should help
21:21:33 <bjdmeest> tzviya: perhaps Paul?
21:22:15 <bjdmeest> mgylling: what about time commitments? now, everything has one week due, seems not possible
21:22:26 <bjdmeest> tzviya: I can give examples withing 2 weeks
21:22:48 <bjdmeest> ... volunteerism is a general problem
21:23:02 <bjdmeest> ivan: very specific jobs might be easier to find volunteers
21:23:25 <bjdmeest> mgylling: we need timelines, we cannot fix volunteers atm
21:25:07 <bjdmeest> dauwhe: I will add to the latin req by thanksgiving (27/11)
21:25:41 <bjdmeest> [updates are being done in www.w3.org/dpub/ig/track/actions/open ]
21:27:23 <bjdmeest> [updates are further being done in the actions page, deadlines are being set]
21:29:34 <bjdmeest> ivan: [about bus case] when do we have a list of names we can act upon?
21:29:55 <bjdmeest> ... we really concentrate on the current resources (only books, might change in the future)
21:30:14 <bjdmeest> mgylling: was this a good idea?
21:30:19 <bjdmeest> karen: it would be useful
21:30:39 <bjdmeest> ivan: we will have on this and on EPUBWEB discussions with the browser vendors
21:30:50 <bjdmeest> ... I think as well this doc will be very useful
21:31:08 <bjdmeest> tzviya: so this bizz case doc by the end of november?
21:31:10 <bjdmeest> karen: yes
21:31:30 <bjdmeest> topic: role-stuff
21:31:34 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #dpub
21:31:59 <bjdmeest> mgylling: we are good to go, we are creating a TF under PF that will take a subset of EPUB structural semantics, do stuff (OWLifying)
21:32:16 <bjdmeest> ... headed by tzviya and me, with contributions of mark ???
21:32:22 <Jan> Jan has joined #dpub
21:32:32 <bjdmeest> ... charles and deborah as well
21:32:46 <bjdmeest> mgylling: the action is to review and narrow the list
21:32:52 <bjdmeest> ... by mid december?
21:33:03 <bjdmeest> tzviyah: yes, and we will talk to Paul?
21:33:12 <bjdmeest> mgylling: I'll do that
21:33:45 <bjdmeest> ivan: I will try to understand the OWL thing, what they do
21:34:08 <bjdmeest> ... remove this separate action, and add me to the previous one
21:34:31 <bjdmeest> topic: stem-meeting actions
21:34:49 <bjdmeest> tzviyah: survey send out early november, results by end november
21:35:03 <bjdmeest> ... by Peter
21:35:11 <bjdmeest> ... in time by force11
21:35:18 <bjdmeest> ivan: force11 is in January
21:35:58 <bjdmeest> topic: metadata actions
21:36:16 <bjdmeest> Bill_kasdorf: actions are depending on volunteers (I already got some)
21:36:31 <bjdmeest> ... by myself, I could commit to one in november, but there are volunteers
21:37:02 <bjdmeest> ivan: I think both actions are comparable in size
21:37:07 <Jan> Jan has left #dpub
21:37:13 <bjdmeest> Bill_kasdorf: I am busy till mid november
21:37:22 <bjdmeest> ivan: so commit to both by mid december?
21:37:28 <bjdmeest> bill_kasdorf: yeah
21:37:44 <bjdmeest> ivan: so current document should be closed down.
21:38:19 <bjdmeest> mgylling: also for rob, to finalize annotation
21:38:55 <bjdmeest> ... use cases
21:41:28 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: i will send out an email: we will do a11y reset, and ask to join again
21:41:45 <Karen_> Karen_ has joined #dpub
21:41:50 <bjdmeest> ... so people with not that many actions: we are superfun to work with! We have candy!
21:42:12 <glazou> glazou has joined #dpub
21:42:21 <clapierre1> http://diagramcenter.org/54-9-tips-for-creating-accessible-epub-3-files.html
21:42:41 <bjdmeest> clapierre: I added a benetech file with tips for a11y for EPUB
21:42:57 <bjdmeest> ... we think that that list of tips will be linked back to the a11y note, that will link to WCAG etc
21:43:44 <bjdmeest> tzviya: maybe an extra F2F, during a conference maybe? (BEA, that is together with IDPF)
21:43:47 <bjdmeest> ... is that valuable?
21:43:50 <bjdmeest> ivan: yes
21:44:02 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: could be throw together a conference wiki page?
21:44:23 <bjdmeest> bill_kasdorf: I have ssp and IDPF, so if this could be at the frontend of IDPF, that would be great
21:44:56 <bjdmeest> tzviya: the conference wiki is a good idea (also C-SAN
21:45:09 <bjdmeest> ivan: we need it to be before summer
21:45:11 <dkaplan3> s/C-SAN/CSUN
21:45:29 <bjdmeest> karen: also other parts of the world (eg EDUPUB)
21:45:34 <bjdmeest> mgylling: may sounds better
21:45:49 <bjdmeest> ... next TPAC is in Saporro, so that is not an easy location
21:46:03 <bjdmeest> ... that is an argument to get another meeting
21:46:56 <bjdmeest> mgylling: we are getting a lot of complains that the current time for telcon is not great
21:47:15 <bjdmeest> tzviya: certainly for Asia
21:47:38 <bjdmeest> karen: India has a lot of interest in DPUB
21:47:57 <bjdmeest> ... the time is prohibitive to participate
21:48:05 <bjdmeest> ... they want to make sure there use cases get attention
21:48:36 <bjdmeest> ... maybe they have their own task force? own community group? representative for our telcons?
21:48:55 <bjdmeest> ... ideally, we should have one time that fits for all
21:49:06 <bjdmeest> bill_kasdorf: publishers or suppliers?
21:49:08 <bjdmeest> karen: both
21:49:23 <bjdmeest> ... 10-12 people, so not insignificant
21:49:23 <tzviya> q?
21:49:29 <bjdmeest> mgylling: what to do?
21:49:36 <bjdmeest> liam: we could move India
21:50:11 <bjdmeest> ivan: having yet another task force, means extra load to tzviya and marcus, I am reluctant to go that way
21:50:26 <bjdmeest> ... we have a situation where latinreq is done here
21:50:58 <bjdmeest> ... at some point, japan, chinese and korean is going on, which span on i18n activities
21:51:25 <bjdmeest> ... the indian group could be a separate interest group, // to china
21:51:25 <liam> [note, jlreq was a joint task force with XSL-FO, CSS and I18N ]
21:52:06 <bjdmeest> ... with the additional feature that they have a representative for our call, or we sporadically organize calls with more convenient times for them
21:52:30 <xiaoqian> q+
21:52:43 <bjdmeest> ... if we move the call, we have to move the call 1-2 hours forward, which is not practical for the west coast
21:53:00 <pkra1> pkra1 has joined #dpub
21:53:05 <bjdmeest> karen: they could maybe join other task forces?
21:53:27 <bjdmeest> robin: we met the former head of Elsevier, it could be that there is an intersection there
21:53:31 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
21:53:50 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: extra help to the a11y group would be very much appreciated
21:54:20 <bjdmeest> ivan: apart from some sparks, we did not really make use of e-mail discussions, sometimes there are long discussions on the monday calls
21:54:32 <tzviya> ack xiaoqian
21:54:37 <bjdmeest> ... we could make more use of the email discussions, and then the timezone is no longer a problem
21:55:06 <bjdmeest> xiaoqian: we have community group, where DPUB discussions should happen
21:55:29 <bjdmeest> karen: for India, a separate interest group does not make sense, whilst they want to be bonafide members
21:55:55 <bjdmeest> ivan: chartering an extra interest group is not a problem, as it are india specific issues
21:56:13 <bjdmeest> karen: it is not only India related, they also want to contribute to the main core
21:56:29 <bjdmeest> tzviya: extra help is always appreciated
21:56:35 <fjh> fjh has joined #dpub
21:56:53 <bjdmeest> ivan: task forces have very ad hoc goals, there are no regular timings, more emails
21:56:59 <bjdmeest> ... there, there is no problem
21:57:02 <dkaplan3> q+
21:57:19 <clapierre1> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:57:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html clapierre1
21:57:27 <bjdmeest> karen: maybe we can organize a call with the Indian office, on a convenient time, to check the matches and the task forces with them
21:57:31 <bjdmeest> tzviya: ok
21:57:41 <bjdmeest> karen: I will organize that
21:57:52 <tzviya> q?
21:58:02 <bjdmeest> dkaplan: anybody who knows anyone who cares about a11y, put them in touch with us
21:58:03 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
21:58:24 <tzviya> thank you
22:00:02 <fjh> fjh has joined #dpub
22:02:18 <ivan> Present+ Richard_Ishida
22:02:45 <bjdmeest_> bjdmeest_ has joined #dpub
22:03:39 <ivan> Present+ Addison
22:03:56 <ivan> Present+ Felix_Sasaki
22:05:53 <ivan> scribenick: brady_duga
22:06:26 <bjdmeest> bjdmeest has joined #dpub
22:06:29 <ivan> Present+ fantasai
22:06:41 <dauwhe> me s/an editor/THE editor/
22:08:31 <brady_duga> richard: Need intro? Yes
22:09:13 <brady_duga> … brief overview of I18n WG
22:09:54 <brady_duga> … seek out features, provide advice to WGs, review specs, liase with other orgs, create tests, etc
22:10:06 <ivan> Present+ Bert_Bos
22:11:00 <brady_duga> … home page has a bunch drill down topic based tasks, plus dos and don’ts
22:11:20 <brady_duga> … have a checker/validator
22:11:44 <brady_duga> … run workshops from various disciplines. Lock them in a room until they are smiling and happy
22:11:47 <addison> addison has joined #DPUB
22:12:14 <brady_duga> … slides are available online
22:12:16 <takeshi> takeshi has joined #dpub
22:12:49 <brady_duga> … empower local communities to participate
22:13:11 <Bert> Bert has joined #dpub
22:13:39 <hiroto> hiroto has joined #dpub
22:13:40 <brady_duga> … work they have done: predefined counters for various scripts. The document has the CSS you need, and it will create correct script-based styling
22:14:00 <brady_duga> … Arabic math done in mathml WG.
22:14:38 <brady_duga> … have worked a lot on ruby, working on a new model for html 5 and working with CSS to enable fine adjustments of these annotations
22:14:46 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #dpub
22:15:43 <brady_duga> … show of hands of people who are familiar with various interesting scripts
22:16:26 <brady_duga> … one problem with BIDI was use of unicode BIDI algorithm. Usually works, but not always
22:16:53 <brady_duga> … [showing example of restaurant review putting restaurant names in the wrong place]
22:17:06 <bradk__> bradk__ has joined #dpub
22:17:19 <brady_duga> … they worked on solving this
22:17:38 <Reinaldo_> Reinaldo_ has joined #dpub
22:18:04 <brady_duga> … that’s the general stuff they work on
22:18:14 <tzviya> q?
22:18:17 <brady_duga> … they started to look at Japanese content specifically
22:18:57 <brady_duga> … TF met over 2 years, created a huge document “Requirements for Japanese Text Layout”
22:19:22 <brady_duga> … Document is in both Japanese and English
22:19:22 <dauwhe> http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/
22:19:51 <brady_duga> … Did not address problems in CSS, just described text layout for Japanese, to make it perrenial
22:20:31 <brady_duga> … TF worked in their own language, comms in own lang
22:20:41 <brady_duga> … then provided English language version
22:20:53 <brady_duga> … So succesful, moved on to Korean
22:21:15 <dauwhe> http://www.w3.org/TR/klreq/
22:21:17 <brady_duga> … Things not going too fast, but they have some work out
22:21:28 <brady_duga> … have an indic TF as well, still early days
22:21:58 <brady_duga> … now working on Chinese
22:22:10 <brady_duga> … simplified and traditional
22:24:28 <brady_duga> … also looking at minority scripts (Mongolian, Tibetan & Uyghur)
22:25:50 <brady_duga> … lots of interesting problems, nto just styling (for instance, fonts)
22:26:21 <brady_duga> … Looking at Thai - for instance letter spacing
22:26:33 <brady_duga> … have to decompose and then apply spacing in some cases
22:28:00 <brady_duga> … letter spacing in Hindi may need to keep two grapheme clusters together, so letter spacing is a problem
22:28:37 <brady_duga> … white space processing - may need to drop inserted spaces (say, after pretty printing content)
22:29:08 <brady_duga> … underlines are tricky - in some scripts if the line crosses certain glyphs it changes their meaning
22:29:49 <brady_duga> … emphasis issues - for instance, in Tibetan need to position on syllables
22:30:31 <brady_duga> … ruby differences (eg bopomofo in Taiwan)
22:30:51 <brady_duga> … how do Korean line breaking rules work?
22:31:10 <brady_duga> … Arabic justification - rules vary based on font, even if the text is identical
22:31:55 <brady_duga> … Tibetan justification - still researching the best way to do it in modern typography
22:32:11 <brady_duga> … working to get more layout requirements
22:32:27 <tzviya> q?
22:32:28 <jongund> jongund has joined #dpub
22:32:47 <brady_duga> … they are trying to get the international community more involved.
22:32:55 <xiaoqian> q+
22:33:03 <brady_duga> … instead of a bunch of geeks in a room figuring it out
22:33:21 <tzviya> ack xiaoqian
22:33:32 <astearns> q+
22:34:19 <tzviya> q astearns
22:34:26 <brady_duga> xiaoqian: had a Chinese layout workshop earlier - Mongolian professor said they are trying to help others understand their problems with an online magazine
22:34:38 <clapierre1> q+
22:34:39 <brady_duga> … need to get more data from local experts
22:34:48 <brady_duga> alan: what is up with Korean WG?
22:35:00 <brady_duga> richard: not hearing much from them
22:35:04 <tzviya> ack clapierre
22:35:07 <brady_duga> alan: LG may be joining
22:35:10 <astearns> ack me
22:35:26 <brady_duga> charles: looking at the list of languages: what about Burmese?
22:35:31 <ivan> q+
22:35:42 <brady_duga> richard: looking at it, based on indic languages
22:35:54 <brady_duga> … may be other issues (eg no spaces between words)
22:36:26 <tzviya> ack ivan
22:37:17 <brady_duga> ivan: based on a presentation a few years ago, this IG will be limited to Latin
22:37:20 <addison> q+
22:37:53 <dauwhe> q+
22:38:43 <brady_duga> … Is there a need to synchronize on the type of problems and concerns across languages? So documents produced for other languages are as relevant to digipub as latin rec
22:39:34 <brady_duga> … Also, yesterday we talked about pagination. We will initiate some work on it. Need to coordinate.
22:39:50 <dauwhe> q-
22:40:16 <brady_duga> … Also, have Indian group joining us. Some of their issues will be language specific. How to handle overlap with this group?
22:41:22 <brady_duga> richard: back to Burmese sample: problems with mobile vs desktop
22:41:40 <brady_duga> … need to conform to proper unicode is really only solution
22:42:24 <dauwhe> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Improving_typography_on_the_Web_and_in_eBooks
22:42:28 <brady_duga> … improving typography on the web. Fantasai has said, layout isn’t just language based (for instance, specific scripts change things)
22:42:57 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-latinreq/
22:43:17 <tzviya> ack addison
22:43:20 <Karen_> [Richard shows wiki page on Improving text layout and typography on the Web in ebooks]
22:43:50 <ivan> q+
22:44:14 <brady_duga> addison(???): digital pubs need to discover all these things.
22:44:55 <brady_duga> addison: want to make sure international standards are done at w3c and move into epub
22:45:12 <dauwhe> s/(???)//
22:45:13 <brady_duga> tzviya: worried we are overlapping - how to we work together
22:45:39 <brady_duga> richard: wants us to look at what they are doing, see if it will help us or if we can work on it with them
22:46:13 <tzviya> ?
22:46:16 <tzviya> q?
22:46:20 <tzviya> ack ivan
22:46:28 <brady_duga> … Indic group wanted to document stuff for us, richard pushed them to get it in a single place (i18n WG)
22:47:15 <brady_duga> ivan: all the documents i18n wg have produced would be extremely useful for epub publishers
22:47:47 <brady_duga> ivan: worried that most publishers don’t know these documents and tools exist
22:48:10 <brady_duga> ivan: last thing - do we have time for Chinese CG?
22:48:12 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #dpub
22:48:44 <brady_duga> xiaoqian: chinese wg is same as Chinese requirement TF
22:48:59 <brady_duga> ivan: but whatever comes out of the CG - we would like to hear about it
22:49:43 <bobtung> bobtung has joined #dpub
22:50:00 <brady_duga> xiaoqian: there are still gaps between dpub wg and Chinese TF. They need to fill the gaps.
22:50:37 <murakami> q+
22:50:38 <brady_duga> richard: i18n WG working on getting complex communication issues resolved
22:50:48 <brady_duga> … want to work with dpub on that
22:50:53 <tzviya> ack murakami
22:51:20 <brady_duga> murakami: in Japan one study group working on next gen layout for browsers
22:51:28 <chunming> chunming has joined #dpub
22:51:30 <brady_duga> … supported by Japanese government
22:51:57 <brady_duga> … the chair of that group is Koji Ishii
22:52:28 <ivan> q?
22:52:32 <ivan> q+
22:52:44 <brady_duga> … next year TPAC will be in Sapporo
22:53:12 <brady_duga> … wants us to work in conjunction with that group
22:53:33 <chunming> q?
22:53:43 <takeshi> q+
22:53:53 <tzviya> ack ivan
22:53:53 <brady_duga> richard: Lets look at ways we can tie together all the appropriate groups
22:54:03 <brady_duga> ivan: Looking for actions
22:54:46 <brady_duga> action ivan to find someone to review i18n web page
22:54:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-42 - Find someone to review i18n web page [on Ivan Herman - due 2014-11-07].
22:55:12 <brady_duga> ivan: we should report back to i18n wg
22:55:15 <tzviya> ACTION Tzviya DPUB to read i18n documentation from EPUB perspective for gap analysis
22:55:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-43 - Dpub to read i18n documentation from epub perspective for gap analysis [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2014-11-07].
22:55:57 <brady_duga> … especially pagination recs need to coordinate
22:55:58 <chunming> You may refer to the report of Chinese Layout Req Workshop this september: http://www.chinaw3c.org/layout-workshop-report.html#conclusion
22:56:09 <tzviya> ack takeshi
22:56:09 <brady_duga> … once a year at TPAC may not be enough
22:58:14 <brady_duga> takeshi: gathering info from many communities is very important, but need to be careful - in some cases need to understand how it interacts with Latin languages
22:58:39 <brady_duga> … for instance, emphasis in Japanese with Latin glyphs
22:59:04 <brady_duga> richard: if we make all these requirements without tieing to technologies that’s fine
22:59:05 <tzviya> q?
22:59:36 <brady_duga> … but we need to tie this back to the technologies, and need to coordinate with similar language groups (for instance Chinese and Japanese)
22:59:49 <bobtung> bobtung has joined #dpub
23:00:03 <brady_duga> … need to figure out what is the web of comms channels to make this work
23:00:04 <Karen_> q+
23:00:34 <brady_duga> tzviya: we will review their docs, and work with ivan on coordinating comms with i18n wg
23:00:51 <brady_duga> addison: is this a good time to start reviewing our work?
23:01:04 <brady_duga> … this is a weird case, since we are working on similar things
23:01:15 <tzviya> ack karen
23:01:36 <brady_duga> karen: Communications - is that intra-w3c? Or do you mean external comms?
23:01:49 <brady_duga> tzviya: Intention was intra-w3c
23:02:07 <brady_duga> karen: is there an opportunity to do more educational outreach?
23:02:13 <brady_duga> tzviya: yes, eventually
23:02:15 <tzviya> thank you
23:02:59 <ivan> Meeting adjurned
23:03:06 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
23:03:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-minutes.html ivan
23:03:27 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
23:03:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see Seattle
23:03:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see bobtung, chunming, Reinaldo_, hiroto, Bert, takeshi, addison, bjdmeest, Karen_, jeanne, dauwhe, murakami, xiaoqian, ShaneM, liam, Jutta, tzviya, ivan, iank_, RRSAgent,
23:03:28 <Zakim> ... Zakim, mihnea_____, astearns, dkaplan3, rego, plinss, trackbot
23:03:33 <ivan> zakim, drop seattle
23:03:33 <Zakim> Seattle is being disconnected
23:03:35 <Zakim> DPUB_IG()11:00AM has ended
23:03:35 <Zakim> Attendees were Seattle, pkra, madi, +44.788.775.aaaa, astein, +1.217.721.aabb, Jutta, Tim_Boland
23:04:04 <ivan> zakim, bye
23:04:04 <Zakim> Zakim has left #dpub
23:04:12 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
23:04:12 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-actions.rdf :
23:04:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Bill_Kasdorf to lead activity of collating existing resources of best practices for RDFa [1]
23:04:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-irc#T17-41-07
23:04:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Bill_Kasdorf to develope comprehensive list of identifiers that should be expressed as URIs and contact governance organizations to find current recommendations [2]
23:04:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-dpub-irc#T17-48-52