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16:32:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/17-aria-apg-irc
16:32:37 <jamesn> zakim, what meeting is this?
16:32:37 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, jamesn.
16:33:10 <jamesn> zakim, this is WAI_PF
16:33:10 <Zakim> ok, jamesn; that matches WAI_PF(APG)12:30PM
16:33:44 <jamesn> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices
16:34:24 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is LJWatson
16:34:24 <Zakim> +LJWatson; got it
16:35:49 <jamesn> agenda: this
16:35:49 <jamesn> agenda+ Taskforce objectives both near term and long term)
16:35:49 <jamesn> agenda+ APG Open issues https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/6
16:35:49 <jamesn> agenda+ APG Open defects https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Practices&list_id=45642&product=ARIA&resolution=---
16:35:50 <jamesn> agenda+ be done
16:36:47 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
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16:40:49 <LJWatson> scribe: Léonie Watson
16:40:54 <LJWatson> scribenick: LJWatson
16:41:05 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
16:41:05 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Taskforce objectives both near term and long term)" taken up [from jamesn]
16:41:50 <LJWatson> JN: Want thoughs on defficiencies of APG as it is, and ideas for where it should go.
16:42:45 <LJWatson> LW: Getting over the hurdle of learning ARIA for first time is a challenge.
16:43:10 <LJWatson> JG: Review design/interaction patterns for suitability.
16:44:18 <LJWatson> JG: Include things not to do in design patterns, as well as things to do.
16:45:21 <LJWatson> JG: Guidance on when/which design pattern to choose.
16:45:51 <LJWatson> JN: UI design guidance/notes.
16:47:00 <LJWatson> JN: Provide alternative methods.
16:47:36 <LJWatson> GB: People consider this doc to be mormative, but it isn't.
16:49:11 <LJWatson> LW: Too radical to suggest a title that makes it clearer that it's an informative document?
16:50:40 <LJWatson> LW: Update design pattern examples?
16:50:54 <jemma_> I think so.
16:51:03 <LJWatson> JN: Anyone disagree design patterns should be our primary focus?
16:51:10 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:51:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
16:51:26 <LJWatson> JG: Should make what's there better before adding to it.
16:51:28 <jemma_> as a developer, I use UI patterns more than reading through aria doc
16:52:00 <jemma_> not all of UI patterns
16:52:07 <jemma_> just most used ones first?
16:52:20 <LJWatson> JN: Need to think about how to approach this.
16:53:11 <LJWatson> JN: First approach is to file/track bugs.
16:53:15 <jemma_> yes, I agree with you what you just said
16:53:52 <LJWatson> JN: Myself and Matt [King] will edit the doc, but it'll be on Github for people to contribute to.
16:54:24 <LJWatson> LW: Bugzilla component?
16:54:39 <LJWatson> JN: Discussion about whether to use Bugzilla or Tracker.
16:54:48 <jemma_> I don't know tracker but I have used bugzilla...
16:54:57 <LJWatson> JN: Using both ATM.
16:54:59 <jemma_> either way works for me.
16:55:55 <LJWatson> JN: Can do a lot of work discussing/responding to bugs offline.
16:56:01 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
16:56:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
16:56:28 <Zakim> +Matt_King
16:56:38 <LJWatson> JN: Is everyone happy with Bugzilla?
16:57:09 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:57:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
16:57:28 <jemma_> I got the error accessing the link,  Sorry, Insufficient Access Privileges
16:57:44 <jamesn> rrsagent, make log world
16:57:48 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:57:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
16:58:40 <mattking> mattking has joined #aria-apg
16:59:54 <LJWatson> MK: How should we prioritise things?
17:00:12 <LJWatson> JN: Suggest we first log bugs against the stuff we know is broken.
17:00:25 <LJWatson> JN: Just design patterns for now.
17:01:56 <LJWatson> MK: Think design patterns are subjective. We should perhaps walk through them as a group?
17:02:02 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:02:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
17:02:53 <LJWatson> MK: We could review 3 patterns per call, give people time to read/review beforehand.
17:04:26 <LJWatson> MK: Could each raise bugs ahead of the meetings, for review on call.
17:05:05 <LJWatson> LW: Would also give good indication where multiple design patterns exist.
17:05:19 <LJWatson> MK: Possible to file bugs against a specific widget?
17:05:33 <LJWatson> JN: It's possible in Bugzilla.
17:07:22 <jemma_> such as "toggle", "tab-list"...?
17:09:09 <trackbot> trackbot has joined #aria-apg
17:09:21 <LJWatson> ACTION: James Nurthen to ask Michael about adding sub-components for individual design patterns/widgets to Bugzilla.
17:09:21 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
17:10:52 <LJWatson> MK: Can we make a start?
17:11:14 <LJWatson> JN: Yes, we can retro-actively assign bugs to sub-components.
17:11:15 <jemma_> accordion sounds good.
17:11:34 <jemma_> it is used a lot by developers
17:12:36 <LJWatson> MK: Should start with the building block widgets, then move onto the more complex widgets.
17:12:41 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:12:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
17:13:31 <LJWatson> JG: Can use the taxonomy?
17:13:57 <Zakim> -Matt_King
17:14:05 <LJWatson> JN: Could go for simple widgets alphabetically?
17:14:33 <Zakim> +Matt_King
17:15:05 <LJWatson> MK: Agree
17:15:47 <LJWatson> JN: I can put the list/running order together done today.
17:17:06 <LJWatson> zakim, who is noisy?
17:17:18 <Zakim> LJWatson, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: James_Nurthen (19%), Bryan_Garaventa (4%), Jon_Gunderson (95%)
17:18:10 <LJWatson> MK: Lack of reliable examples is a problem, and a huge project.
17:19:40 <LJWatson> MK: We should have a definitive W3C hosted set of examples.
17:20:44 <LJWatson> LW: Github repo?
17:22:55 <LJWatson> MK: Thoughts on associating the APG with specific ARIA versions?
17:23:40 <LJWatson> JN: This is a non recc track doc.
17:24:07 <LJWatson> JN: Should we start with a 1.1 APG anyway?
17:24:47 <LJWatson> LW: Makes sense.
17:25:04 <LJWatson> MK: We should change title then.
17:25:39 <mattking> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/
17:26:56 <LJWatson> MK: ARIA 1.1 should go to recc early 2016?
17:27:36 <LJWatson> MK: Seems we should be able to publish a cleaned up version of APG 1.0 mid 2015?
17:28:00 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/blob/master/practices/aria-practices.html
17:28:56 <LJWatson> JN: Master APG on Github is APG 1.1.
17:29:12 <LJWatson> JN: Think the expectation from PF is that we'll work on APG 1.1.
17:30:00 <LJWatson> MK: We can publish a working draft of APG 1.1 before ARIA 1.1 goes to recc.
17:33:09 <LJWatson> MK: Would it confuse browser/AT vendors if we went to APG 1.1?
17:33:36 <LJWatson> LW: Think it would encourage them to fix existing errors/incomplete support.
17:34:19 <LJWatson> MK: Consensus is to call it APG 1.1?
17:34:51 <LJWatson> +1
17:41:11 <LJWatson> JN: If the widget is usable, think it's ok to include it. Unless to advise so would do harm.
17:42:06 <LJWatson> LW: We're getting close to interoperability requirements for what should be included.
17:43:09 <LJWatson> MK: Everything should be supported by at least two/three browsers.
17:43:33 <LJWatson> BG: Not many widgets in 1.0 that aren't supported.
17:43:35 <jongund> I have to leave a little early today
17:44:22 <LJWatson> MK: Agree ATs need guidance for supporting roles approprriately.
17:44:56 <LJWatson> MK: If we think this doc is a prerequisite, we've created ourselves a new problem. Don't think this doc is that.
17:45:38 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:45:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
17:48:34 <jongund> Sorry I need to leave
17:48:38 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
17:49:37 <LJWatson> MK: We need to be able to point AT vendors at 1.1 features so they can start to think about support.
17:49:58 <LJWatson> JN: We could use highlighted notes to indicate new/unsupported features?
17:50:12 <LJWatson> JN: We don't have the bandwidth to work on multiple versions of the APG.
17:50:32 <LJWatson> MK: Some way to include notes could work.
17:50:47 <LJWatson> MK: Some way to clearly indicate the status of each pattern?
17:51:34 <LJWatson> JN: If we have robust examples, it would be easy to do a "can I use" test against it.
17:52:24 <LJWatson> JN: Could use spec notes to highlight features that lack support.
17:52:30 <LJWatson> MK: Ok, let's do that.
17:52:37 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:52:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
17:54:38 <LJWatson> JN: Next week let's try to get through button, checkbox radiobutton.
17:56:39 <LJWatson> JN: Could also review existing issues.
17:56:52 <LJWatson> MK: No meeting on 31st Oct.
17:57:10 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:57:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
17:57:41 <jemma_> I am ok with bugzilla too.
18:01:28 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:01:40 <Zakim> -LJWatson
18:01:42 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
18:01:46 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
18:01:47 <Zakim> -Matt_King
18:01:48 <jemma> bye
18:03:31 <LJWatson> Present: James Nurthen, Léonie Watson, Jemma, Bryan Garaventa, Jon Gunderson, Matt King
18:03:45 <LJWatson> Chair: James Nurthen
18:03:52 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/17-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:06:47 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, +1.217.244.aaaa, in WAI_PF(APG)12:30PM
18:06:49 <Zakim> WAI_PF(APG)12:30PM has ended
18:06:49 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.217.244.aaaa, James_Nurthen, Bryan_Garaventa, Jon_Gunderson, LJWatson, Matt_King
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18:32:00 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate this channel with #pf
18:32:00 <trackbot> Associated this channel with #pf.
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19:19:59 <Zarif> Hello
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