11:36:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #csvw
11:36:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/08-csvw-irc
11:36:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
11:36:36 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #csvw
11:36:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be CSVW
11:36:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 24 minutes
11:36:39 <trackbot> Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference
11:36:39 <trackbot> Date: 08 October 2014
11:37:28 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting agenda 2014-10-08: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-10-08
11:43:29 <danbri> danbri has joined #csvw
11:53:13 <danbri> ivan, "intitution" typo in http://w3c.github.io/csvw/experiments/simple-templates-jquery/test.html
11:53:29 <danbri> any suggestions re https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-10-08 ?
11:53:46 <danbri> we need to sit with jeni next few days to draft f2f agenda, for sure
11:56:24 <danbri> rrsagent, this will be CSVW
11:56:24 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'this will be CSVW', danbri.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
11:56:30 <danbri> zakim, this will be CSVW
11:56:30 <Zakim> ok, danbri; I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
11:57:13 <jtandy> jtandy has joined #csvw
11:58:58 <danbri> ivan, the metadata.csvm in http://w3c.github.io/csvw/experiments/simple-templates-jquery/test.html only gives 3 triples in the json-ld playground
12:00:53 <jtandy> jtandy has joined #csvw
12:01:03 <danbri> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-10-08
12:01:16 <danbri> rrsagent, help
12:01:28 <danbri> rrsagent, start
12:01:53 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #csvw
12:02:32 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has now started
12:02:41 <Zakim> + +44.207.286.aaaa
12:02:43 <phila> phila has joined #csvw
12:02:43 <jtandy> hi - am having Zakim dial in issues; could be local, will keep trying
12:02:45 <danbri> zakim, aaaa is me
12:02:45 <Zakim> +danbri; got it
12:02:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:03:01 <danbri> jtandy, I had to wait a while to get through on zakim
12:03:04 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
12:03:04 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
12:03:06 <Zakim> +Ivan
12:03:10 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me
12:03:10 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
12:04:01 <ericstephan> ericstephan has joined #csvw
12:04:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:04:05 <phila> zakim, ipcaller is me
12:04:05 <Zakim> +phila; got it
12:04:20 <danbri> zakim, who is on the phone?
12:04:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see danbri, AndyS, Ivan, phila
12:04:41 <danbri> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-10-08
12:04:44 <Zakim> +??P7
12:05:02 <Zakim> +Eric
12:05:07 <jtandy> zakim, ??P7 is me
12:05:08 <Zakim> +jtandy; got it
12:05:37 <danbri> scribenick: jtandy
12:05:45 <jtandy> scribe: jtandy
12:06:16 <danbri> agenda hacking
12:06:57 <jtandy> ivan: wonders if we can do anything for planning about the face to face meeting?
12:07:07 <jtandy> ... especially who will dial in?
12:07:36 <jtandy> AndyS: is hoping to dial in ... but only if there's an agenda to help target the conversation
12:07:56 <phila> DWBP threw togetehr an outline for planning purposes https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/TPAC_2014
12:07:59 <jtandy> danbri: notes that early morning PST will help for europeans
12:08:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:08:40 <danbri> topic: dc/schema @context and normative refs issue
12:08:46 <jtandy> ivan: and danbri organise their calendars to sort out the agenda
12:08:53 <jtandy> ... for the F2F
12:09:03 <jtandy> topic:
12:09:12 <rgrp> rgrp has joined #csvw
12:09:13 <ivan> q+
12:09:15 <rgrp> hi all
12:09:40 <danbri> ack ivan?
12:09:45 <jtandy> danbri: schema.org, DC, plain old english prose
12:09:55 <jtandy> ... can we bottom out this conversation.
12:10:27 <jtandy> ivan: we need to define the json terms and then a one or two sentence description of those terms [to define the semantics]
12:10:50 <jtandy> ... to have fixed json terms is important because then metadata validators can use them
12:11:06 <rgrp> i'm generally plus one on having *some*
12:11:09 <jtandy> ... and we can provide example @context docs to map to other vocabs
12:11:24 <rgrp> q+
12:11:30 <danbri> zakim, who is on the call?
12:11:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see danbri, AndyS, Ivan, phila, jtandy, Eric, [IPcaller]
12:11:30 <ivan> ack ivan
12:12:24 <jtandy> rgrp (rufus): a short list recommended terms is useful ... to define a pattern of usage for the community.
12:12:36 <jtandy> ... basically in general agreement with ivan
12:12:43 <rgrp> jtandy: its MAY not MUST in terms of use and people can obviously add their own ...
12:13:04 <jtandy> danbri: what is the next action here
12:13:14 <danbri> "specifiy few core terms, keep it small, under 10"
12:13:32 <jtandy> ivan: we need to resolve the action and write down the short list of terms
12:13:48 <jtandy> danbri: notes his comparison of DC with schema.org
12:13:59 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:13:59 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:14:15 <jtandy> could have been an outsider here
12:14:20 <ivan> q+
12:14:25 <ivan> ack rgrp
12:14:30 <danbri> ack ivan
12:14:34 <ivan> created
12:14:35 <ivan> creator
12:14:35 <ivan> description
12:14:35 <ivan> language
12:14:35 <ivan> license
12:14:35 <ivan> modified
12:14:35 <ivan> provenance
12:14:35 <ivan> publisher
12:14:35 <ivan> rights
12:14:35 <ivan> rightsHolder
12:14:35 <ivan> source
12:14:35 <ivan> spatial
12:14:37 <ivan> subject
12:14:37 <ivan> temporal
12:14:37 <ivan> title
12:15:02 <jtandy> ivan: shares his list of terms (above) ... but is not convinced that all the terms are necessary
12:15:10 <jtandy> ... e.g. spatial and temporal
12:15:22 <jtandy> ... the rest is probably ok
12:15:33 <jtandy> q+
12:15:44 <danbri> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Oct/0008.html
12:15:53 <danbri> • created: http://schema.org/dateCreated
12:15:53 <danbri> • creator: http://schema.org/creator or http://schema.org/author
12:15:53 <danbri> • description: http://schema.org/description
12:15:53 <danbri> • language: http://schema.org/language (definition applies to actions;
12:15:53 <danbri> could be generalized)
12:15:53 <danbri> • license: http://schema.org/license
12:15:53 <danbri> • modified: http://schema.org/dateModified
12:15:54 <danbri> • provenance: no direct. http://schema.org/evidenceOrigin is related.
12:15:54 <danbri> • publisher: http://schema.org/publisher
12:15:54 <danbri> • rights: no direct mapping
12:15:55 <danbri> • rightsHolder: http://schema.org/copyrightHolder
12:15:55 <danbri> • source: no direct mapping (how does this compare to provenance), not
12:15:55 <danbri> http://schema.org/source which is medical.
12:15:56 <danbri> • spatial: https://schema.org/spatial
12:15:56 <danbri> • subject: http://schema.org/about
12:15:56 <danbri> • temporal: https://schema.org/temporal
12:15:57 <danbri> • title: https://schema.org/name (rather than https://schema.org/title)
12:16:15 <jtandy> ivan: need long discussion to resolve the final list & suggests lubrication with beer to help
12:16:24 <rgrp> i'm +0 on dropping spatial / temporal ...
12:16:41 <rgrp> i have to save dateCreated is kind of nicer to be explicit but i'm easy either way
12:16:41 <jtandy> danbri: may be able to tweak schema.org to get rid of the differences
12:16:51 <rgrp> s/save/say/g ...
12:16:56 <phila> q+ to talk about cores and onions, rights and licences
12:17:21 <jtandy> ivan: it's not really a problem because we can change the "name" for a given term in the @context
12:17:49 <jtandy> ... also think we don't need "source"; because the metadata already refers to the csv file resource
12:17:52 <rgrp> i'd vote for source ...
12:17:58 <danbri> q?
12:17:58 <rgrp> provenance is somewhat fancy ...
12:18:05 <danbri> ack jtandy
12:18:05 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:18:06 <Zakim> jtandy was not muted, jtandy
12:18:10 <rgrp> or even better: "sources" ...
12:18:21 <rgrp> but i think that takes us away from dc ...
12:18:27 <danbri> jtandy: i was trying some examples myself
12:18:33 <danbri> dcat metadata for dataset i was working on
12:18:42 <danbri> things like lcense in dcat are part of distribution not about dataset
12:18:53 <danbri> there are some diffs in how we vs dcat handle things, in our csv metadata doc
12:18:56 <rgrp> right, but dcat makes it a bit overcomplex there ...
12:19:12 <danbri> based on a comment in recent spec, should we not try to normalize around DCAT given that W3C has chosen this for discovery metadata?
12:19:13 <phila> +1 to normalising with DCAT (surprise surprise)
12:19:15 <rgrp> i think datasets can have license in dcat no?
12:19:17 <danbri> or say that we've chosen not to?
12:19:17 <danbri> q?
12:19:20 <danbri> ack phila
12:19:20 <Zakim> phila, you wanted to talk about cores and onions, rights and licences
12:19:22 <ivan> q+
12:19:38 <danbri> phila: CSV files are distributions
12:20:01 <jtandy> thanks
12:20:08 <rgrp> phila: the dataset / distribution distinction for a CSV (they are sort of the same here)
12:20:24 <rgrp> but agree generally - that's why you should support multiple resources/distributions ...
12:20:24 <jtandy> phila: about the dropping of spatial and temporal ... it _sometimes_ matters
12:20:27 <rgrp> +q
12:20:49 <rgrp> to be clear - this is not dropping spatial and temporal its about not having them on the special shortlist ...
12:20:49 <danbri> q+
12:20:52 <jtandy> ... so we need to let people know that there are other terms outside the core data that people might use
12:21:10 <jtandy> ... whether spatial and temporal are important depends on the data
12:21:17 <danbri> ack ivan
12:21:48 <rgrp> no, no, no ivan ;-)
12:21:51 <jtandy> ... suggests that we have a category of "useful" as well as "core" ... and if you don't use the "useful" terms then you need a reason
12:21:54 <rgrp> dcat definitely about datasets ;-)
12:21:58 <phila> +1 rgrp
12:22:14 <rgrp> ivan: you are right that definitely for use by data catalogs to talk about the datasets they hold or point to :-)
12:22:17 <danbri> schema.org Dataset is very dcat-inspired, and def about datasets
12:22:45 <jtandy> ivan: about spatial and temporal ... very important to consider that we are defining a very small core set of terms that can be used **without qualification**
12:22:46 <rgrp> +1 to ivan's points - want stuff to be very clear ...
12:22:54 <ivan> db:temporal
12:22:58 <rgrp> jtandy: good summary - +1 to that
12:23:01 <ivan> dc:temporal
12:23:41 <jtandy> ivan: we can't disallow use of other terms (beyond the small core) ... people can use what they want
12:23:41 <danbri> q?
12:24:02 <danbri> ack rgrp
12:24:09 <jtandy> ivan: there are many situations where things are useful, but let's stick to the core set
12:24:46 <jtandy> rgrp (rufus): the core set in no way prohibits people using other terms; the core should be the set of terms applicable to **every** CSV
12:25:54 <jtandy> ... the point is ... that we shouldn't remove spatial because it is applicable to almost every CSV so we should drive that usage
12:26:05 <danbri> ack me
12:26:05 <rgrp> to every or almost every CSV ...
12:26:20 <jtandy> ... but notes that there are many ways to express "spatial" so can drive complexity
12:26:57 <jtandy> danbri: we need to give people the freedom to use what they need for their local tool chains and keep the mandatory list _very_ short
12:27:18 <jtandy> ... go for provision of _examples_ rather than normative recommendation
12:27:38 <danbri> q?
12:28:31 <jtandy> rgrp: happy to take the list we have here and update the metadata vocab document
12:29:17 <jtandy> ivan: to avoid misunderstanding, the section listing loads of DC terms should be removed
12:29:22 <phila> I note that the EC's DCAT Application Profile does not include spatial and temporal as mandatory https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/asset/dcat_application_profile/asset_release/dcat-application-profile-data-portals-europe-final
12:29:37 <phila> q+
12:29:50 <jtandy> rgrp: agrees, and will make sure that people know they can add their own terms as necessary
12:29:59 <jtandy> danbri: so is the core list normative?
12:30:05 <jtandy> rgrp: yes
12:30:06 <danbri> ack phila
12:30:10 <phila> ack me
12:30:40 <phila> https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/system/files/project/f9/42/c0/DCAT-AP_Final_v1.00.png
12:30:48 <danbri> rgrp, can you 'action:' yourself a suitable editors task here?
12:30:54 <rgrp> danbri: yes ...
12:30:59 <jtandy> phila: references the DCAT application profile for EU (EC?) ... a list of terms that should be used when describing a dataset & talks of mandatory and optional terms
12:31:07 <rgrp> ACTION: (rufus) amend metadata draft with the shortlist
12:31:08 <trackbot> Error finding '(rufus)'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/track/users>.
12:31:27 <jtandy> ... spatial and temporal are optional; this might provide support for our decision in establishing the core list
12:31:33 <phila> action: rufus to amend metadata draft with the shortlist
12:31:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-32 - Amend metadata draft with the shortlist [on Rufus Pollock - due 2014-10-15].
12:32:24 <rgrp> issue #29 ...
12:32:29 <jtandy> rgrp: asks for the final list to be shared after this call
12:32:50 <danbri> [not chair hat] I propose using same short names as schema.org, per my mail above
12:33:37 <jtandy> rgrp: so as above, without spatial and temporal and I get to choose about the english prose of dateCreated or createAt
12:33:46 <jtandy> topic: direct mapping staus
12:34:13 <jtandy> ivan: I have a first version running
12:34:21 <jtandy> ... didn't hit any major issues
12:34:30 <jtandy> ... have not implemented datatype handling yet
12:34:49 <jtandy> ... sometimes I find the metadata convoluted (e.g. primarykey)
12:35:15 <danbri> see also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Oct/0032.html -> http://w3c.github.io/csvw/experiments/simple-templates-jquery/test.html
12:35:57 <jtandy> ivan: the complexity makes the implementation more complex than it would otherwise be ... but nonetheless, it is implementable
12:36:45 <danbri> q+ to ask about http://w3c.github.io/csvw/experiments/simple-templates-jquery/tree-ops/metadata.csvm
12:36:51 <jtandy> ivan: the implementation is the same for both JSON and RDF right up to the point where the output format is chosen
12:36:59 <jtandy> ... this is good
12:37:39 <jtandy> ivan: notes that jtandy found issues with the mapping
12:37:42 <jtandy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Oct/0027.html
12:37:56 <danbri> q?
12:37:57 <jtandy> ivan: how far can we go with the direct mapping?
12:38:05 <jtandy> ... need to be sure we don't over complicate things
12:38:43 <jtandy> danbri: I tried to feed the output from ivan's tool into the JSON-LD playground; something not quite right
12:38:59 <jtandy> ivan: needs to check with Greg
12:39:34 <jtandy> danbri: wonders if properties that are not in a namespace get dropped in JSON-LD
12:39:40 <danbri> q?
12:39:43 <danbri> ack me
12:39:43 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask about http://w3c.github.io/csvw/experiments/simple-templates-jquery/tree-ops/metadata.csvm
12:39:49 <jtandy> ivan: I'm aiming for JSON, not full blown JSON-LD
12:39:58 <jtandy> danbri: what about the specifications?
12:40:03 <jtandy> q+
12:40:25 <jtandy> ivan: only a few changes ... but notes the need to update the metadata vocab as agreed earlier
12:40:53 <jtandy> ... datatype area is currently under specified; esp. date formats
12:41:07 <danbri> ack jtandy
12:41:24 <danbri> jtandy: I'm looking forward to contributing as an editor
12:41:29 <jtandy> haha
12:41:37 <phila> q+ to ask a q that may not be welcome
12:42:22 <jtandy> ivan: notes the need for help with the specification work ... and notes that there's still an XML doc to do too
12:42:40 <jtandy> phila: lots of people still care about XML
12:43:42 <danbri> http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=XML%2C%20JSON%2C%20SQL
12:43:46 <rgrp> i have to drop if that is ok ...
12:43:53 <danbri> thanks rufus
12:44:23 <jtandy> phila: ivan mentioned dates and datatypes; people write dates inconsistently in CSV files ... how can we handle date normalisation?
12:44:24 <rgrp> +1 on phil's point re bad dates ;-) cf http://okfnlabs.org/bad-data/ex/gla-spending/
12:44:39 <Zakim> -rufus
12:45:52 <jtandy> ivan: from the conversion point of view it is easy ... using the 'format' specification in the metadata we can convert into a "proper" RDF (xsd) datatype
12:46:07 <jtandy> ... but if people write rubbish, what can we do?
12:46:53 <jtandy> phila: because the poor date / datetime writing is so common, can we make a special case for validation?
12:47:12 <danbri> q?
12:47:14 <danbri> q+
12:47:18 <phila> q-
12:47:37 <jtandy> ivan: there is a "format" metadata term, also there are about 15 well known date forms that could be checked against
12:48:22 <jtandy> danbri: otoh, if date strings are so poor, this could be an argument for tolerance?
12:48:24 <jtandy> phila
12:48:25 <danbri> ack me
12:49:08 <jtandy> phila: agreed, I worry about enforcement of a detailed pattern introducing errors where people don't know the details
12:49:10 <jtandy> q+
12:49:16 <danbri> t-10
12:49:42 <danbri> ack jtandy
12:50:50 <jtandy> danbri: ultimately the only thing that will drive up data quality is getting data used!
12:50:57 <danbri> topic: R2RML experimentation report (danbri)
12:51:17 <jtandy> danbri: has posted to the mailing list ...
12:51:42 <jtandy> ... implementation has been decoupled from SQL and modified to take CSV as input
12:52:33 <jtandy> ... the "event" example is working; 10-triples per row and exactly the triples I wanted (matching what people actually use)
12:53:01 <jtandy> ... but this is template driven, significantly beyond direct mapping
12:53:11 <jtandy> ... is it beyond mustache?
12:53:30 <jtandy> ... Shall we chase authors for a Working Group Note?
12:53:36 <danbri> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/tree/gh-pages/examples/tests/scenarios/events
12:53:48 <danbri> begun https://github.com/w3c/csvw/tree/gh-pages/examples/tests/scenarios/uc-24
12:53:55 <jtandy> ivan: a WG Note (for R2RML) is useful; no problem there.
12:54:07 <jtandy> ... do we also want Notes for mustache etc.
12:54:08 <danbri> example https://github.com/w3c/csvw/blob/gh-pages/examples/tests/scenarios/events/attempts/attempt-1/mapping-events.rml.ttl
12:54:14 <danbri> bye AndyS
12:54:14 <Zakim> -AndyS
12:54:31 <danbri> ivan: we need to say how to ref an RML file from our metadata
12:54:39 <jtandy> ivan: we _do_ need to include the Recommendation how to refer to these external templates
12:55:24 <jtandy> ... we have 3 mapping processes so far: R2RML, mustache, direct mapping
12:56:07 <jtandy> ... would be useful to run through all the use cases to see where the capabilities of each mapping process reach
12:56:38 <jtandy> danbri: there are a few in progress now ... a few more should be enough?
12:57:06 <jtandy> ivan: to be systematic, would go through all use cases ... to document the pros and cons of each approach
12:57:27 <jtandy> ... this is a lot of work
12:57:40 <jtandy> ... perhaps discuss at the F2F meeting?
12:57:55 <jtandy> ... at some point we'll have to build tests _anyway_
12:58:51 <jtandy> ... we need proper testing in order to progress to Recommendation
12:59:44 <jtandy> danbri: if we share the R2RML and mustache implementations we're working with already, then others in the group could work through the rest of the use cases
12:59:47 <Zakim> -Eric
12:59:52 <Zakim> -danbri
12:59:55 <Zakim> -Ivan
12:59:58 <Zakim> -phila
13:00:07 <jtandy> danbri: will nag the R2RML folks to include an Open source license
13:00:14 <Zakim> -jtandy
13:00:16 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has ended
13:00:16 <Zakim> Attendees were +44.207.286.aaaa, danbri, Ivan, AndyS, phila, Eric, jtandy, rufus
13:02:35 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
13:02:35 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
13:02:35 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
13:02:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:02:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/08-csvw-minutes.html trackbot
13:02:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
13:02:44 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/08-csvw-actions.rdf :
13:02:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: (rufus) amend metadata draft with the shortlist [1]
13:02:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/08-csvw-irc#T12-31-07
13:02:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: rufus to amend metadata draft with the shortlist [2]
13:02:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/08-csvw-irc#T12-31-33