See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 22 September 2014
<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Sep/0079.html
<jamesn> scribeNick: jamesn
<clown> action-1349?
<trackbot> action-1349 -- James Craig to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2014-09-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349
RS: Don't see anything listed in here. Punt to next week
action-1355?
<trackbot> action-1355 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Propose specific edit for issue-588: clarify rowheader and columnheader selection -- due 2014-09-22 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1355
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Sep/0071.html
RS: I have a proposal here. This
is important. There is a subtle thing which will impact the
guide
... it really only happened if the multiselectable state is
set.
... that means that if not in the multiselectable state then
only the column header can be selected.
JN: discussing pivot tables and other places where selecting a column header does not select all the cells in the column
RS: If the author wanted to have
the whole column selected and they are only navigating to the
column header then they wouyld have to propogate the
changes
... do people agree that we do not propogate the selection
MK: I agree with that
RS: don't know what else we need to add to that
<clown> issue-588?
<trackbot> issue-588 -- Clarify rowheader and columnheader selection (editorial) -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/588
JS: what issue caused this? Issue 588
MK: where did it come from?
RS: decision came that we should
modify this text.
... should we specify in the spec to state that this doesn't
select everything in the column
MK: we don't go around the spec and anticipate all the odd things that a browser developer might do and try to prevent them
RS: It was asked what does it mean if i select a row or a column header?
MK: we don't know if the question is raised based on a UA or an application.
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#aria-selected
MK: I have this feeling that writing text like that is a bit of a rabbit hole. If we go through doing stuff like that is would baloon
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#columnheader
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#rowheader
MK: where does it describe what it would do if the application puts aria-selected on the row of the grid
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#row
MK: do we address aria-selected on the grid row?
RS: we don't have a solumn construct in 1.0
<richardschwerdtfeger> gridcell elements with the aria-selected attribute set can be selected for user interaction, and if the aria-multiselectable attribute of the grid is set to true, multiple cells in the grid may be selected. Grids may be used for spreadsheets like those in desktop spreadsheet applications.
RS: we talk about multiselction in the definition of the grid
<bgaraventa1979> +q
RS: If you put aria-selected on
the row header or the columnheader of the gris then it does not
auto-select all the things in the column
... I want to get this closed
BG: If you have a column and it selects the entire column then if you unselect something then what happens?
RS: the author should alwys be able to override things
<richardschwerdtfeger> Applying the aria-selcted state on a rowheader or columnheader does not automatically set the aria-selected stated to all the cells in the corresponding row or column. The setting of these additional aria-selected states is application dependent.
JS: where are you puttin it?
RS: on row and column
header
... let me go into the action
MK: application could be problematic
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#managingfocus
<dicussing wording>
<mattking> Applying the aria-selected state on a rowheader or columnheader does not cause the user agent to automatically propogate the aria-selected state to all the cells in the corresponding row or column.
<mattking> Applying the aria-selected state on a rowheader or columnheader SHOULD not cause the user agent to automatically propogate the aria-selected state to all the cells in the corresponding row or column.
<richardschwerdtfeger> Applying the aria-selected state on a rowheader or columnheader MUST not cause the user agent to automatically propogate the aria-selected state to all the cells in the corresponding row or column.
<mattking> Applying the aria-selected state on a rowheader or columnheader MUST not cause the user agent to automatically propogate the aria-selected state to all the cells in the corresponding row or column.
<mattking> An author MAY choose to propogate selection in this manner for a specific application.
<clown> An author MAY choose to propogate selection in this manner depending on the specific application
<richardschwerdtfeger> Propagation of aria-selected to the individual gridcells is application dependent.
<clown> An author MAY choose to propogate selection in this manner depending on the specific application.
<richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: James Craig to add this text to the rowheader and columnheader specification sections: Applying the aria-selected state on a rowheader or columnheader MUST not cause the user agent to automatically propogate the aria-selected state to all the cells in the corresponding row or column. An author MAY choose to propogate selection in this manner depending on the specific application.
action-1423?
<trackbot> action-1423 -- Cynthia Shelly to Ask developers about group, none, and generic roles and whether it would be helpful for implementatation of e.g., narrator -- due 2014-09-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1423
<clown> action-1423?
<trackbot> action-1423 -- Cynthia Shelly to Ask developers about group, none, and generic roles and whether it would be helpful for implementatation of e.g., narrator -- due 2014-09-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1423
CS: I expect to be working more closely with them in the future so should get done soon. Give me another week
<clown> action-1423?
<trackbot> action-1423 -- Cynthia Shelly to Ask developers about group, none, and generic roles and whether it would be helpful for implementatation of e.g., narrator -- due 2014-09-29 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1423
<clown> action-1461?
<trackbot> action-1461 -- Michael Cooper to Ask an html-aapi editor to bring question of @inert to html a11y tf -- due 2014-09-22 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1461
action-1461?
<trackbot> action-1461 -- Michael Cooper to Ask an html-aapi editor to bring question of @inert to html a11y tf -- due 2014-09-22 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1461
MC: rushed to do it. put it in
pending review state.... was tossing it over the wall.
... in pending review state - but nothing to review
... if can get the property to be reinstated then would be good
for aria
<MichaelC> ackme
action-1462?
<trackbot> action-1462 -- Cynthia Shelly to Discuss computed role with ie team -- due 2014-09-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1462
<clown> action-1462?
<trackbot> action-1462 -- Cynthia Shelly to Discuss computed role with ie team -- due 2014-09-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1462
CS: move this one out too
action-1497?
<trackbot> action-1497 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Write a glossary item for accessible description -- due 2014-08-18 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1497
RS: put a proposal out which JC modified. Was fine with those mods./
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Sep/0083.html
<richardschwerdtfeger> The accessible description provides help information about an interface
<richardschwerdtfeger> element or about how it is used. The value of the accessible description
<richardschwerdtfeger> may be derived from a reference to visible or invisible content within a
<richardschwerdtfeger> web page, or the accessible description may be defined by host language
<richardschwerdtfeger> features, such as the <desc> element in SVG.
RS: people ok with that?
LS: I'm not
... I wrote to the list. There is a whole issue here and will
be creating a mess with this
... My suggestion would be for screen reader help, alternate
interface help etc.
... something we want to put in place for the cognitive task
force is to put in mechanisms for help for users who require
it
... it is a user group whose accessible experience would be
detracted from by screen reader information
... It is very important that we specify who is the intended
audience
... sould be a text box where need to edit comments. there
could be somthing with a button to move to the toolbar. For
someone with cognitive decline the worst thing to do would be
to add something with some complex keystoke
... we need to accept that this is not a blanket accessible
description
LS we don;t overuse terms like accessibility to mean one user group
RS: there is nothign thgat says anything specific about any user type
LS: I would like to make it
specific
... I don't want the same tag for screen reader users as for
cognitive users
... If soemthing is needed for screen reader users then it
should only be for them and not for congnitive users
... the description doesn't state who it is for.
MK: RS - was this intended to be accessible description as something that is meant to accompany aria-describedby
RS: yes
MK: we use aria-describedby to
point to standard help which is available to all users and just
associates it. aria-describedby can be used for screen reader
specific help.
... aria-describedby is completely generic and needs to stay
that way
<fesch_> q
MK: what makes it accessible is that it is related to a specifc element and is relatyed to that element.
RS: getting relationships
supported in browesers has been a challenbge at times. If we
have to create =something with a nother relation then this is
going to be evben harder
... if there was some sort of indication in that description if
there were some support for certain user groups then this could
be used.
JS: wanted to give a little background
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#dfn-accessible-name
JS: I was working on the
accessible name computation and there were all sorts of refs to
accessible name and accessible description and had links toi
the glossary. But there was no glossary description for
accessible description.
... Rich took the task to create one. How that accessivble name
or description gets used is up to the application
JD: Matt said it is generic.
Should be bigger than a name but smaller than a long
description. This is something that is not helk
... when I look at the draft text it looks specifc to help
information.
LS: back to the wording.
"provides help infromation" should be generic information and
not stuff that is specific to modality.
... I think it should be generic and not specific to any
modality
... equivalent to aria-describedby and you point to the "make
sure you have 7 digits in your code"
... it is not modality specific. It should be plain language.
If people are going to use it for other stuff then we can't use
it for cognitive
CS: these fields already
exist
... sometimes they have other stuff in too.
... trying to redefine this isn't a good idea. We should use
what they are used forf now
... redifining is not a good idea
RS: had an aria1.1 now in 2.0
issue for keybaord support
... the intent wasn't to lump it in here
<jongund> RS: Matt
<jongund> RS: Matt King?
<jongund> MK: I had to step away
<clown> scribenick: jongund
RS: You are on que
... We were talking about changing the text for accessible
description
MK: I started to edit the
description, the description should not say anything about what
should go in the description
... We should say a lot less about what should be in the
description
... The accessible description is just not a string, it can
also be a pointer
<richardschwerdtfeger> The accessible description provides help information about an interface
<richardschwerdtfeger> element. The value of the accessible description
<richardschwerdtfeger> may be derived from a reference to visible or invisible content within a
<richardschwerdtfeger> web page, or the accessible description may be defined by host language
<richardschwerdtfeger> features, such as the <desc> element in SVG.
RS: It is ultimately a string
MK: It could be a description of
a picutre, so it could be considered more help...
... Don't want to use the word description in the def
Clown: More than a name and less than a long description
MK: Any kind of information that is directly related to an element
<richardschwerdtfeger> The accessible description provides additional information about the element that the author feels pertinent to convey to the users. The value of the accessible description
<richardschwerdtfeger> may be derived from a reference to visible or invisible content within a
<richardschwerdtfeger> web page, or the accessible description may be defined by host language
<richardschwerdtfeger> features, such as the <desc> element in SVG.
RS: How about this..
LS: Yes
MK: There are some cases where you have some information that is part of the screen, it is clearly related to the element... don't like the "author" clause..
Clown: Additional information about the element period
MK: It doesn't have to be... additional information related to the element
Fred: What does related to add?
MK: When you use the word about .... in a dialog we use aria-describedby ... the text is related to the dialog, but not dialog..
<richardschwerdtfeger> The accessible description provides additional information relating to the interface element. The value of the accessible description
<richardschwerdtfeger> may be derived from a reference to visible or invisible content within a
<richardschwerdtfeger> web page, or the accessible description may be defined by host language
<richardschwerdtfeger> features, such as the <desc> element in SVG.
LS: My confusion is the link to
invisible content, it can ref invisible and visible content,
reference to content in the web page
... Invisible content is always very ....
MK: that is a valid use of aria-described by
RS: Visible and invisible content covers it all
MK: Information that is not
visually present on the page
... Information to me is visible, even though sighted users
cannot see it
... We talk about screen reader visibility
Bryan: Perceivable..
MK: Visually perceivable, may not be visually perceivable
<richardschwerdtfeger> The accessible description provides additional information relating to the interface element. The value of the accessible description may not be visually perceivable.
MK: Complements accessible name
LS: I like that
RS: Write it in MK
... I have never spent this much time on a gloaary def
JS: Definitions are important
RS: Thank you for raising this LS
<mattking> The accessible description provides additional information that complements the accessible name and is related to an interface element. The value of the accessible description may not be visually perceivable.
additional word smithing .....
MK: May not gives a "should not"
flavor
... May not necessarily be visual perceivable
<richardschwerdtfeger> The accessible description provides additional information, about an interface element, that complements the accessible name. The accessible description may not be visually perceivable.
RS: Say the accessible description
<mattking> An accessible description provides additional information that complements the accessible name and is related to an interface element. The accessible description may or may not be visually perceivable.
<richardschwerdtfeger> An accessible description provides additional information that complements the accessible name and is related to an interface element. The accessible description might or might not be visually perceivable.
<mattking> An accessible description provides additional information that complements the accessible name and is related to an interface element. The accessible description might or might not be visually perceivable.
RS: Ok with that?
Clown: MK said something
too
... more editing ....
... The glossary needs it
<richardschwerdtfeger> An accessible description provides additional information, related to an interface element, that complements the accessible name. The accessible description might or might not be visually perceivable.
<clown> +1
<mattking> +1
<joanie> +1
+1
<fesch_> +1
<Lisa_Seeman> +1
<richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: new glossary definition for accessible description is: An accessible description provides additional information, related to an interface element, that complements the accessible name. The accessible description might or might not be visually perceivable.
RS: Colwn can you put it in?
Clown: It is nt that big of
deal
... Just reassign it to me
1497
Action 1497
Clown: Put the definition in a
note
... The glossary goes into all the documents
... "Important Terms"
MK: Is this the first definition of "description??
RS: This is not the only place
where we have had these jems
... 8 minutes left, let me go to the top of the agenda
<fesch_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Sep/0079.html
RS: Lets go through open actions
and issues and get dates assigned
... These are all ....
... Issue 561
<clown> action-1426?
<trackbot> action-1426 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: @aria-placeholder -- due 2014-04-21 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1426
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1426
Joanie: Something that is appropriate to use an object attribute, we already do this, I am not sure why assigned to me
RS: Let me go back
<clown> issue-561?
<trackbot> issue-561 -- We need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/561
RS: Just respond saying this
would be best be done with an object attribute
... I am going to close action for Joanie
... 2 minutes left
... Joanie this is you again
MK: Is region role treated as a landmark?
RS: Technically region is not a landmark, but IBM and Jaws treat them as a region
<clown> action-1440?
<trackbot> action-1440 -- Joanmarie Diggs to landmarks section uses "region of page" in prose even though "region" is not a landmark -- due 2014-09-30 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1440
MK: How it is used in the prose
Joanie: I will add that to my list, James assigned me some other things...
RS: That is a wrap
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