IRC log of svg on 2014-09-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-svg-irc
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RRSAgent, make logs public
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Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
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ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG()9:00AM already started
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Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
13:01:45 [trackbot]
Date: 11 September 2014
13:03:15 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
13:03:29 [ed]
Zakim, [IP is me
13:03:29 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
13:04:03 [Zakim]
+Tav
13:04:10 [richardschwerdtfeger]
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13:04:20 [ed]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Sep/0012.html
13:04:22 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
13:04:30 [ed]
Chair: ed
13:04:31 [birtles]
Zakim, [ is me
13:04:31 [Zakim]
+birtles; got it
13:05:05 [ed]
Regrets: Dirk, Cameron
13:06:06 [ed]
ScribeNick: ed
13:06:19 [ed]
Topic: Proposed Sydney F2F dates
13:06:31 [ed]
CSSWG 9th - 10th
13:06:31 [ed]
FXTF 11th
13:06:31 [ed]
SVGWG 12th - 13th
13:06:56 [Zakim]
+??P8
13:07:02 [birtles]
fine with me
13:07:11 [nikos_]
Zakim, ??P8 is me
13:07:11 [Zakim]
+nikos_; got it
13:07:25 [ed]
ed: these are the proposed dates from the CSS WG, they're awaiting our feedback on this
13:07:39 [ed]
tav: long travel for just two days of meetings
13:08:07 [Zakim]
+??P6
13:08:07 [ed]
ed: tav, would you rather have more days for the svg part?
13:08:19 [Zakim]
-??P6
13:08:25 [Zakim]
+Rich_Schwerdtfeger
13:08:33 [ed]
tav: yes, one additional day would be good
13:10:09 [Zakim]
+??P6
13:10:39 [Zakim]
+??P10
13:10:50 [ed]
tav: suggest 12-14 th Feb
13:10:51 [stakagi]
zakim ??P10 is me
13:11:10 [stakagi]
zakim, ??P10 is me
13:11:10 [Zakim]
+stakagi; got it
13:11:17 [ed]
ed: the 14th is a saturday, everyone ok with that?
13:11:28 [ed]
nikos: valentines day
13:11:50 [ed]
... doesn't bother me though
13:12:04 [ed]
ed: 14th is fine with me
13:12:46 [ed]
RESOLUTION: the SVG WG will meed in Sydney, 12 - 14th February 2015
13:13:15 [ed]
tav: for the FXTF there are some issues surrounding text that we should handle, like fill and stroke on text
13:13:22 [ed]
... could that be done that day?
13:13:33 [ed]
ed: sounds like a good topic for FXTF yes
13:14:02 [ed]
https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Sydney_2015
13:14:38 [ed]
ACTION: ed to update https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Sydney_2015 with dates and registration form
13:14:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3669 - Update https://www.w3.org/graphics/svg/wg/wiki/f2f/sydney_2015 with dates and registration form [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-09-18].
13:15:54 [ed]
topic: Handling of trailing semicolons in list attributes
13:16:12 [nikos_]
scribenick: nikos_
13:16:49 [nikos_]
ed: This is a bug that came up on blink. keySplines didn't work with a trailing semi-colo. There was no animation
13:16:52 [ed]
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=705236
13:17:06 [nikos_]
... there's some background regarding how trailing semi-colons are handled
13:17:11 [ed]
values, keyTimes,
13:17:11 [ed]
keySplines, keyPoints, begin, end
13:17:29 [nikos_]
... think most browsers are treating these the same way, except for keySplines and the case where you have two or more semi-colons at the end - indicating an empty value
13:17:45 [nikos_]
... I guess the only thing that differs is the spec says something different than what implementations are doing
13:17:52 [nikos_]
... proposal is to update spec to match implementations
13:18:06 [nikos_]
... and to define multiple semi-colons means an empty value
13:18:19 [nikos_]
... I saw Dr Hoffman replied - he seems to be in dissagreement
13:18:19 [ed]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Sep/0020.html
13:18:52 [nikos_]
birtles: think his concern is compatibility of specs, not of browsers. He said svg 2 should be compatible with svg 1 in terms of what the spec says
13:19:04 [nikos_]
... but that's not taking into account the accessibility issue of the content
13:19:19 [nikos_]
... there's content that relies on ignoring the trailing semi-colon
13:19:32 [nikos_]
ed: I think that's a fair point
13:19:42 [nikos_]
... people seem to expect that a trailing semi-colon is ignored
13:19:48 [nikos_]
... rather than it meaning there's an empty value
13:20:25 [nikos_]
... I think the implementation in Gecko is such that when you have two semi-colons then there is an empty value. But don't think that's the case in Blink
13:20:33 [nikos_]
... I'd be ok in changing that in Blink
13:21:10 [nikos_]
... at the same time I'd also like to align other separators
13:21:20 [nikos_]
... trailing commas are not always ignored and I think they should be
13:21:31 [nikos_]
... all browsers I tested except FF allow trailing commas
13:21:38 [ed]
http://jsfiddle.net/u6s671gb/4/
13:21:47 [nikos_]
... that's a simple test case
13:22:05 [nikos_]
... you'll see there's a comma at the end of the y and rotate
13:22:20 [Zakim]
-nikos_
13:22:21 [nikos_]
... if it's rotated then trailing comma is allowed
13:22:51 [nikos_]
... I'm suggesting we allow trailing commas in all list attributes
13:23:01 [nikos_]
... in addition to the original proposal regarding semi-colons
13:23:03 [ed]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Nov/0136.html
13:23:34 [nikos_]
ed: anyone disagree with this change?
13:23:47 [nikos_]
Tav: it would basically just break badly written svg?
13:23:48 [nikos_]
ed: yes
13:24:11 [nikos_]
... trailing commas already works in all browsers except FF and I'm pretty sure it's been like that for a while
13:24:32 [nikos_]
... I'd be surprised if much content relied on the specific behaviour with semi-colons
13:24:40 [birtles]
it seems good to me, not allowing trailing commans is a well-known pain point with json
13:24:49 [birtles]
s/commans/commas/
13:25:12 [nikos_]
Tav: I'm mostly fine but I think we should ask Dr Hoffman if he has content that will break with this change
13:25:31 [birtles]
I believe Ikivo Animator exported content with trailing semi-colons and they agreed to fix the bug but never released another version
13:25:38 [birtles]
and the content generated with the buggy version still exists
13:26:03 [nikos_]
ed: I think Ikivo was the main source of additional semi-colons
13:26:11 [nikos_]
Tav: is this breaking content from Ikivo?
13:26:36 [nikos_]
ed: yes if we do something other than ignore trailing semi-colons then content would break
13:26:49 [nikos_]
ed: it was a bug in their software, but content is out there
13:26:55 [nikos_]
... may not be very much though
13:27:26 [nikos_]
shepazu: it's an easy fix for the content
13:27:32 [nikos_]
... we need to have one way of doing it right?
13:28:14 [nikos_]
Tav: I would be happy if we made this change if it's demonstrated that there's not much content out there using this
13:29:12 [nikos_]
shepazu: we should either just do it for a particular reason (e.g. interoperability) or not do it
13:29:31 [nikos_]
... it's going to be difficult to demonstrate the amount of content out there that's using this
13:30:06 [nikos_]
... let's just base it on the merits of the idea
13:31:00 [nikos_]
... Ikivo content is unlikely to be used with an SVG 2 user agent
13:31:15 [nikos_]
... is the proposed change more consistent with the internal model or not?
13:31:27 [nikos_]
birtles: in JS you can use trailing commas but in JSON you can't
13:31:35 [nikos_]
... and that causes confusion for people
13:31:47 [nikos_]
... people expect trailing commas will be ignored
13:31:57 [nikos_]
shepazu: is there any analog in CSS?
13:33:27 [nikos_]
ed: I think we should allow trailing commas
13:33:34 [nikos_]
... that's what 3 of 4 user agents do at the moment
13:33:53 [nikos_]
... and we should allow trailing semi colons for all smil attributes
13:34:05 [nikos_]
... if you want an empty value two semi-colons are required
13:34:16 [nikos_]
... which means you can't have an empty value at the end of the list
13:35:52 [nikos_]
ed: I don't see the value in keeping the spec as is
13:36:04 [nikos_]
Tav: anyone object to the proposal? I'm not going to
13:37:03 [nikos_]
RESOLUTION: accept Brian's proposal for handling trailing semi-colons on animation attributes
13:38:01 [nikos_]
RESOLUTION: apply Brian's proposal to trailing commas for consistency
13:38:57 [nikos_]
action: Erik to update SVG 2 to apply changes relating to handling trailing semi-colons and trailing commas
13:38:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3670 - Update svg 2 to apply changes relating to handling trailing semi-colons and trailing commas [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-09-18].
13:39:30 [nikos_]
Topic: Pointer events test review
13:39:32 [ed]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Sep/0009.html
13:39:54 [nikos_]
ed: the pointer events WG has suggested that we review one of their tests for the pointer events spec
13:40:17 [nikos_]
ed: anyone familiar with the specification?
13:41:06 [nikos_]
... looking for someone to commit to reviewing the svg tests
13:41:06 [Zakim]
-stakagi
13:41:32 [nikos_]
... not hearing any volunteers
13:41:42 [nikos_]
... they emailed the mailing lists so I guess anyone could review
13:41:47 [nikos_]
... but it'd be easier if one of us reviewed
13:41:55 [Zakim]
+??P8
13:42:09 [stakagi]
zakim, ??P8 is me
13:42:09 [Zakim]
+stakagi; got it
13:42:23 [nikos_]
... I'll leave that as an open request
13:43:30 [nikos_]
shepazu: the test contains things like scroll values
13:43:52 [shepazu]
https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1121/files
13:44:29 [nikos_]
... it has target0.scrollLeft
13:44:33 [nikos_]
... do we have scroll in SVG?
13:45:04 [ed]
<div id="target0">
13:45:35 [nikos_]
shepazu: is this really a test of pointer events in svg or in an img element?
13:45:56 [nikos_]
ed: I haven't read the spec but I think it's trying to test something that doesn't happen on the SVG DOM
13:46:16 [nikos_]
shepazu: I'd like to give them some feedback on this test. It seems they're just treating svg as a block level element
13:46:24 [nikos_]
... it's not wrong but it's not really a test for SVG
13:47:28 [nikos_]
ed: I think it's trying to test touch-action:none on the svg
13:47:40 [nikos_]
... which means the element shouldn't trigger any default touch events
13:49:11 [nikos_]
shepazu: there's a few tests moving the element different directions
13:50:40 [nikos_]
... it's not testing svg, just a block level element
13:50:53 [nikos_]
... so it's not testing pointer events on SVG as such
13:51:23 [nikos_]
nikos: it looks that way to me
13:51:26 [nikos_]
ed: I think that's fair
13:51:38 [nikos_]
... you could replace the svg element with another html element
13:52:00 [nikos_]
shepazu: do we have examples of some sort of test that might be useful for their purposes?
13:52:37 [nikos_]
shepazu: nothing springs to mind
13:52:55 [nikos_]
ed: I think it would be a good idea to have some more svg tests if they want to test touch events on svg
13:53:22 [nikos_]
shepazu: I'll contact the pointer events group
13:53:56 [Zakim]
-Rich_Schwerdtfeger
13:53:58 [Zakim]
-ed
13:54:02 [Zakim]
-Doug_Schepers
13:54:03 [nikos_]
RRSAgent, make minutes
13:54:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-svg-minutes.html nikos_
13:54:04 [Zakim]
-birtles
13:54:04 [Zakim]
-Tav
13:54:09 [Zakim]
-stakagi
13:54:10 [Zakim]
-??P6
13:54:10 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()9:00AM has ended
13:54:11 [Zakim]
Attendees were Doug_Schepers, [IPcaller], ed, Tav, birtles, nikos_, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, stakagi
13:55:12 [nikos_]
Looks like the resolution regarding commas wasn't captured as a resolution
13:55:28 [nikos_]
or not highlighted as one anyway
14:03:05 [ed]
just looks like it was captured as one resolution instead of two
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14:17:50 [ed]
just noticed that we'll have the Sydney F2F on Friday the 13th...
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15:58:24 [krit]
ed: SVG already exists. What else harm can a Friday 13th still do ?
15:58:44 [shepazu]
we might all be murdered...
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