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13:01:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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13:01:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
13:01:44 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG()9:00AM already started
13:01:45 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
13:01:45 <trackbot> Date: 11 September 2014
13:03:15 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:03:29 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
13:03:29 <Zakim> +ed; got it
13:04:03 <Zakim> +Tav
13:04:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg
13:04:20 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Sep/0012.html
13:04:22 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:04:30 <ed> Chair: ed
13:04:31 <birtles> Zakim, [ is me
13:04:31 <Zakim> +birtles; got it
13:05:05 <ed> Regrets: Dirk, Cameron
13:06:06 <ed> ScribeNick: ed
13:06:19 <ed> Topic: Proposed Sydney F2F dates
13:06:31 <ed> CSSWG 9th - 10th
13:06:31 <ed>    FXTF 11th
13:06:31 <ed>    SVGWG 12th - 13th
13:06:56 <Zakim> +??P8
13:07:02 <birtles> fine with me
13:07:11 <nikos_> Zakim, ??P8 is me
13:07:11 <Zakim> +nikos_; got it
13:07:25 <ed> ed: these are the proposed dates from the CSS WG, they're awaiting our feedback on this
13:07:39 <ed> tav: long travel for just two days of meetings
13:08:07 <Zakim> +??P6
13:08:07 <ed> ed: tav, would you rather have more days for the svg part?
13:08:19 <Zakim> -??P6
13:08:25 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
13:08:33 <ed> tav: yes, one additional day would be good
13:10:09 <Zakim> +??P6
13:10:39 <Zakim> +??P10
13:10:50 <ed> tav: suggest 12-14 th Feb
13:10:51 <stakagi> zakim ??P10 is me
13:11:10 <stakagi> zakim, ??P10 is me
13:11:10 <Zakim> +stakagi; got it
13:11:17 <ed> ed: the 14th is a saturday, everyone ok with that?
13:11:28 <ed> nikos: valentines day
13:11:50 <ed> ... doesn't bother me though
13:12:04 <ed> ed: 14th is fine with me
13:12:46 <ed> RESOLUTION: the SVG WG will meed in Sydney, 12 - 14th February 2015
13:13:15 <ed> tav: for the FXTF there are some issues surrounding text that we should handle, like fill and stroke on text
13:13:22 <ed> ... could that be done that day?
13:13:33 <ed> ed: sounds like a good topic for FXTF yes
13:14:02 <ed> https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Sydney_2015
13:14:38 <ed> ACTION: ed to update https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Sydney_2015 with dates and registration form
13:14:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3669 - Update https://www.w3.org/graphics/svg/wg/wiki/f2f/sydney_2015 with dates and registration form [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-09-18].
13:15:54 <ed> topic: Handling of trailing semicolons in list attributes
13:16:12 <nikos_> scribenick: nikos_
13:16:49 <nikos_> ed: This is a bug that came up on blink. keySplines didn't work with a trailing semi-colo. There was no animation
13:16:52 <ed>  https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=705236
13:17:06 <nikos_> ... there's some background regarding how trailing semi-colons are handled
13:17:11 <ed> values, keyTimes,
13:17:11 <ed> keySplines, keyPoints, begin, end
13:17:29 <nikos_> ... think most browsers are treating these the same way, except for keySplines and the case where you have two or more semi-colons at the end - indicating an empty value
13:17:45 <nikos_> ... I guess the only thing that differs is the spec says something different than what implementations are doing
13:17:52 <nikos_> ... proposal is to update spec to match implementations
13:18:06 <nikos_> ... and to define multiple semi-colons means an empty value
13:18:19 <nikos_> ... I saw Dr Hoffman replied - he seems to be in dissagreement
13:18:19 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Sep/0020.html
13:18:52 <nikos_> birtles: think his concern is compatibility of specs, not of browsers. He said svg 2 should be compatible with svg 1 in terms of what the spec says
13:19:04 <nikos_> ... but that's not taking into account the accessibility issue of the content
13:19:19 <nikos_> ... there's content that relies on ignoring the trailing semi-colon
13:19:32 <nikos_> ed: I think that's a fair point
13:19:42 <nikos_> ... people seem to expect that a trailing semi-colon is ignored
13:19:48 <nikos_> ... rather than it meaning there's an empty value
13:20:25 <nikos_> ... I think the implementation in Gecko is such that when you have two semi-colons then there is an empty value. But don't think that's the case in Blink
13:20:33 <nikos_> ... I'd be ok in changing that in Blink
13:21:10 <nikos_> ... at the same time I'd also like to align other separators
13:21:20 <nikos_> ... trailing commas are not always ignored and I think they should be
13:21:31 <nikos_> ... all browsers I tested except FF allow trailing commas
13:21:38 <ed> http://jsfiddle.net/u6s671gb/4/
13:21:47 <nikos_> ... that's a simple test case
13:22:05 <nikos_> ... you'll see there's a comma at the end of the y and rotate
13:22:20 <Zakim> -nikos_
13:22:21 <nikos_> ... if it's rotated then trailing comma is allowed
13:22:51 <nikos_> ... I'm suggesting we allow trailing commas in all list attributes
13:23:01 <nikos_> ... in addition to the original proposal regarding semi-colons
13:23:03 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Nov/0136.html
13:23:34 <nikos_> ed: anyone disagree with this change?
13:23:47 <nikos_> Tav: it would basically just break badly written svg?
13:23:48 <nikos_> ed: yes
13:24:11 <nikos_> ... trailing commas already works in all browsers except FF and I'm pretty sure it's been like that for a while
13:24:32 <nikos_> ... I'd be surprised if much content relied on the specific behaviour with semi-colons
13:24:40 <birtles> it seems good to me, not allowing trailing commans is a well-known pain point with json
13:24:49 <birtles> s/commans/commas/
13:25:12 <nikos_> Tav: I'm mostly fine but I think we should ask Dr Hoffman if he has content that will break with this change
13:25:31 <birtles> I believe Ikivo Animator exported content with trailing semi-colons and they agreed to fix the bug but never released another version
13:25:38 <birtles> and the content generated with the buggy version still exists
13:26:03 <nikos_> ed: I think Ikivo was the main source of additional semi-colons
13:26:11 <nikos_> Tav: is this breaking content from Ikivo?
13:26:36 <nikos_> ed: yes if we do something other than ignore trailing semi-colons then content would break
13:26:49 <nikos_> ed: it was a bug in their software, but content is out there
13:26:55 <nikos_> ... may not be very much though
13:27:26 <nikos_> shepazu: it's an easy fix for the content
13:27:32 <nikos_> ... we need to have one way of doing it right?
13:28:14 <nikos_> Tav: I would be happy if we made this change if it's demonstrated that there's not much content out there using this
13:29:12 <nikos_> shepazu: we should either just do it for a particular reason (e.g. interoperability) or not do it
13:29:31 <nikos_> ... it's going to be difficult to demonstrate the amount of content out there that's using this
13:30:06 <nikos_> ... let's just base it on the merits of the idea
13:31:00 <nikos_> ... Ikivo content is unlikely to be used with an SVG 2 user agent
13:31:15 <nikos_> ... is the proposed change more consistent with the internal model or not?
13:31:27 <nikos_> birtles: in JS you can use trailing commas but in JSON you can't
13:31:35 <nikos_> ... and that causes confusion for people
13:31:47 <nikos_> ... people expect trailing commas will be ignored
13:31:57 <nikos_> shepazu: is there any analog in CSS?
13:33:27 <nikos_> ed: I think we should allow trailing commas
13:33:34 <nikos_> ... that's what 3 of 4 user agents do at the moment
13:33:53 <nikos_> ... and we should allow trailing semi colons for all smil attributes
13:34:05 <nikos_> ... if you want an empty value two semi-colons are required
13:34:16 <nikos_> ... which means you can't have an empty value at the end of the list
13:35:52 <nikos_> ed: I don't see the value in keeping the spec as is
13:36:04 <nikos_> Tav: anyone object to the proposal? I'm not going to
13:37:03 <nikos_> RESOLUTION: accept Brian's proposal for handling trailing semi-colons on animation attributes
13:38:01 <nikos_> RESOLUTION: apply Brian's proposal to trailing commas for consistency
13:38:57 <nikos_> action: Erik to update SVG 2 to apply changes relating to handling trailing semi-colons and trailing commas
13:38:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3670 - Update svg 2 to apply changes relating to handling trailing semi-colons and trailing commas [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-09-18].
13:39:30 <nikos_> Topic: Pointer events test review
13:39:32 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Sep/0009.html
13:39:54 <nikos_> ed: the pointer events WG has suggested that we review one of their tests for the pointer events spec
13:40:17 <nikos_> ed: anyone familiar with the specification?
13:41:06 <nikos_> ... looking for someone to commit to reviewing the svg tests
13:41:06 <Zakim> -stakagi
13:41:32 <nikos_> ... not hearing any volunteers
13:41:42 <nikos_> ... they emailed the mailing lists so I guess anyone could review
13:41:47 <nikos_> ... but it'd be easier if one of us reviewed
13:41:55 <Zakim> +??P8
13:42:09 <stakagi> zakim, ??P8 is me
13:42:09 <Zakim> +stakagi; got it
13:42:23 <nikos_> ... I'll leave that as an open request
13:43:30 <nikos_> shepazu: the test contains things like scroll values
13:43:52 <shepazu> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1121/files
13:44:29 <nikos_> ... it has target0.scrollLeft
13:44:33 <nikos_> ... do we have scroll in SVG?
13:45:04 <ed> <div id="target0">
13:45:35 <nikos_> shepazu: is this really a test of pointer events in svg or in an img element?
13:45:56 <nikos_> ed: I haven't read the spec but I think it's trying to test something that doesn't happen on the SVG DOM
13:46:16 <nikos_> shepazu: I'd like to give them some feedback on this test. It seems they're just treating svg as a block level element
13:46:24 <nikos_> ... it's not wrong but it's not really a test for SVG
13:47:28 <nikos_> ed: I think it's trying to test touch-action:none on the svg
13:47:40 <nikos_> ... which means the element shouldn't trigger any default touch events
13:49:11 <nikos_> shepazu: there's a few tests moving the element different directions
13:50:40 <nikos_> ... it's not testing svg, just a block level element
13:50:53 <nikos_> ... so it's not testing pointer events on SVG as such
13:51:23 <nikos_> nikos: it looks that way to me
13:51:26 <nikos_> ed: I think that's fair
13:51:38 <nikos_> ... you could replace the svg element with another html element
13:52:00 <nikos_> shepazu: do we have examples of some sort of test that might be useful for their purposes?
13:52:37 <nikos_> shepazu: nothing springs to mind
13:52:55 <nikos_> ed: I think it would be a good idea to have some more svg tests if they want to test touch events on svg
13:53:22 <nikos_> shepazu: I'll contact the pointer events group
13:53:56 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
13:53:58 <Zakim> -ed
13:54:02 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
13:54:03 <nikos_> RRSAgent, make minutes
13:54:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-svg-minutes.html nikos_
13:54:04 <Zakim> -birtles
13:54:04 <Zakim> -Tav
13:54:09 <Zakim> -stakagi
13:54:10 <Zakim> -??P6
13:54:10 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()9:00AM has ended
13:54:11 <Zakim> Attendees were Doug_Schepers, [IPcaller], ed, Tav, birtles, nikos_, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, stakagi
13:55:12 <nikos_> Looks like the resolution regarding commas wasn't captured as a resolution
13:55:28 <nikos_> or not highlighted as one anyway
14:03:05 <ed> just looks like it was captured as one resolution instead of two
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14:17:50 <ed> just noticed that we'll have the Sydney F2F on Friday the 13th...
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15:58:24 <krit> ed: SVG already exists. What else harm can a Friday 13th still do ?
15:58:44 <shepazu> we might all be murdered...
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