14:39:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:39:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-html-a11y-irc
14:39:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:39:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
14:39:45 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 39 minutes ago
14:39:46 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:39:46 <trackbot> Date: 21 August 2014
14:39:52 <janina> agenda?
14:40:00 <janina> zakim, clear agenda
14:40:00 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:40:06 <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
14:40:06 <janina> Chair: Janina
14:40:06 <janina> agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
14:40:09 <janina> agenda+ Longdesc Update
14:40:12 <janina> agenda+ Access Key/Command
14:40:14 <janina> agenda+ Web Payments
14:40:17 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
14:40:19 <janina> agenda+ Identify Chair and Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
14:40:22 <janina> agenda+ be done
14:40:43 <janina>  zakim, take up item 1
14:40:43 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
14:50:24 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
14:50:31 <Zakim> +??P0
14:51:26 <Zakim> -??P0
14:51:27 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
14:51:27 <Zakim> Attendees were
14:51:46 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
14:51:53 <Zakim> +??P0
14:52:16 <janina> zakim, ??P0 is me
14:52:16 <Zakim> +janina; got it
14:57:38 <ShaneM_> ShaneM_ has joined #html-a11y
14:59:23 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y
14:59:38 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
15:00:05 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #html-a11y
15:00:13 <Zakim> +Judy
15:00:27 <Zakim> +Adrian_Roselli
15:00:37 <aardrian> aardrian has joined #html-a11y
15:00:50 <Zakim> +??P6
15:00:56 <aardrian> zakim, who is here?
15:00:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina, David_MacDonald, Judy, Adrian_Roselli, ??P6
15:00:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see aardrian, LJWatson, Judy, ShaneM_, RRSAgent, newtron_, IanPouncey, liam, janina, Zakim, MarkS, sivoais, hober, cabanier, trackbot
15:01:11 <David_> David_ has joined #html-a11y
15:01:33 <LJWatson> zakim, who is on the phone
15:01:33 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', LJWatson
15:02:06 <LJWatson> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina, David_MacDonald, Judy, Adrian_Roselli, ??P6
15:02:23 <LJWatson> zakim, p6 is LJWatson
15:02:23 <Zakim> sorry, LJWatson, I do not recognize a party named 'p6'
15:03:28 <LJWatson> zakim, ??P6 is LJWatson
15:03:28 <Zakim> +LJWatson; got it
15:03:31 <IanPouncey1> IanPouncey1 has joined #html-a11y
15:04:54 <joanie> joanie has joined #html-a11y
15:05:16 <David_> scribe: David
15:05:54 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
15:05:58 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
15:06:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:06:35 <IanPouncey> Zakim, IPcaller is me
15:06:35 <Zakim> +IanPouncey; got it
15:06:35 <plh> plh has joined #html-a11y
15:06:42 <Zakim> +Plh
15:06:49 <David_> JB: Change agenda to delay formal Obj.
15:07:21 <David_> JB: to allow others to join regarding LongD
15:07:57 <David_> LW: Bug triage... time has come for stepping down as Bug Triage team
15:08:50 <David_> JS: Thanks for a job fabulously done, helped accessibility in spec a lot
15:09:09 <David_> LW: Congratulates other participants in BTriage
15:09:25 <Zakim> +Shane_McCarron
15:09:36 <ShaneM_> zakim, I am Shane_McCarron
15:09:36 <Zakim> ok, ShaneM_, I now associate you with Shane_McCarron
15:10:09 <David_> LW: It's a good time to consider closing... since it's quiet
15:10:17 <Zakim> +Liam
15:10:25 <David_> LW: May need it later
15:10:49 <David_> Topic: Longdesc
15:11:37 <David_> JS: Look at implementation report, we have new implementers, who's just joined
15:12:13 <David_> JS: Received formal obj. from apple late yesterday
15:12:42 <David_> JS: Point of CR is to get implementations
15:13:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #html-a11y
15:13:27 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:13:47 <Zakim> +??P10
15:13:53 <David_> JB: i'm very interested in seeing what's necessary on timeline. i want to hankel process considerations, to get TF opinion to move forward
15:14:12 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
15:14:15 <David_> s/hankel/handle
15:15:22 <David_> JS: Implementation report
15:15:24 <LJWatson> s/come for stepping down as Bug Triage team/come for stepping down as Bug Triage facilitator/
15:15:29 <JF> JF has joined #html-a11y
15:16:12 <plh> http://w3c.github.io/test-results/html-longdesc/cr-report.html
15:17:13 <David_> JS: Charles will walk though implementation report
15:18:11 <David_> CM: Will add header and footer... doc shows that requirements by 4 user agents are met by more than 2 Ua for each requireme t... essentially demonstrates people can implement it and get it right
15:18:48 <Zakim> + +1.617.319.aaaa
15:18:56 <janina> q?
15:19:05 <David_> we haven't put in every permutation because not required... if people implement it without talking to each other they'll get it right
15:20:09 <David_> JS: Does group agree with Charles position that if people implement it without talking to each other they'll get it right
15:20:56 <David_> Phillippe: Director doesn't need format perfect and this Implementation report is better than many others
15:21:11 <David_> RS: Are there links to the tests
15:21:19 <David_> CM: Yes
15:21:42 <David_> Rs: Sounds like you've got it
15:22:34 <David_> RS: does implen. reoort include two major broawers
15:22:42 <David_> CM: Yes
15:22:53 <David_> RS: don't need any more
15:23:11 <David_> JS: an
15:23:27 <David_> JS: Any reason one API
15:23:52 <David_> CM: there are two APIs ... DOM and UA
15:24:46 <David_> JS: let's wrap it up... the report is sufficient to clear CR... no challenges here in group
15:25:43 <David_> S/UA/MSAA
15:26:22 <David_> Joanie: points out you also have ATK/AT-SPI2
15:26:38 <David_> JS: Let's add that to table
15:27:16 <David_> RS: how is it exposed in MSAA?
15:28:04 <David_> Cynthia: In IE: URL that LD points to is a String ain acc DESC
15:28:42 <David_> s/ain acc DESC/ in ACCDESC
15:29:29 <joanie> https://git.gnome.org/browse/orca/commit/?id=f190cabcd786e80e24c73da5381d623f14d268a5
15:29:34 <joanie> there's your results
15:29:43 <David_> ACTION: Charles and Joanie to sync to add her tests to implementation report
15:29:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-280 - And joanie to sync to add her tests to implementation report [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2014-08-28].
15:32:25 <David_> CW: you can put any Screen reader on the planet except VO on a web page with this and they can get it
15:32:58 <David_> TOPIC: OCRA implementation with Joanie
15:33:11 <MarkS> s/OCRA/ORCA
15:33:18 <joanie> s/ORCA/Orca
15:34:06 <janina> https://git.gnome.org/browse/orca/commit/?id=f190cabcd
15:34:34 <JF> Q+
15:35:04 <David_> Joanie: I thought what I sent was our proposal, worthy of consideration... some is already done properly by GECKO,
15:35:17 <David_> JB: are they nice to have or critical
15:35:23 <joanie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2014Aug/0029.html
15:35:25 <David_> JS: can we walk through them
15:36:21 <David_> Joanie: I don't think it should be the only way be LD, if ebook user offline should be able to get it
15:37:11 <David_> Joanie: (reading through issue in list from url http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2014Aug/0029.html
15:39:34 <Judy> q+
15:40:12 <janina> q?
15:42:17 <David_> CM: we tried to avoid generalities i the spec on UA, my pushback would be it's not things specifically limited to longdesc
15:43:04 <David_> Joanie: Why does it say UA must make link available to all users... they include keyboard users also... why not take that text out...
15:44:41 <David_> JF: Joanie, we can't tell authors what they must and must not do... i agree feedback for autnors is useful, we've never said LD is THE sloution... it ks A solution... Should could go to WCAG
15:45:34 <MarkS> +1 to onus of testing and usability on author
15:45:39 <David_> JF: we have this problem with other thinks like link... don't want to over manipulate authors... bottom line... no revisions to author section
15:46:11 <janina> q?
15:46:16 <janina> ack j
15:46:16 <JF> ack JF
15:46:18 <janina> ack ??P
15:46:20 <janina> ack j
15:46:39 <JF> zakim, ??P10 is Chaals
15:46:39 <Zakim> +Chaals; got it
15:46:41 <David_> JB: are the changes requested normative or informative
15:47:10 <David_> Joanie: Not going to block anything
15:47:42 <David_> JB: asking because it changes how we treat the comments, and address them
15:48:25 <David_> JB: LD not be all and end all, we are looking to develop additional things in the future.
15:49:07 <David_> JS: need to discuss further on list.
15:50:00 <David_> CM: if we don't make these changes will LD not work, will it be worse... or are prososals just going to improve that we can add at a later date... lets frameit like that
15:50:21 <David_> TOPIC: Formal Objection from Apple
15:50:39 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:50:45 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:51:07 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Aug/0031.html
15:51:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, [IBM is Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:51:10 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger; got it
15:51:33 <MarkS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2014Aug/0028.html
15:54:13 <David_> JB: trying to determine kf they are new arguments or not... didn't see any new ones... but there are specific requests at the end... TF needs to look at them and see if it makes sense to accommodate or respond
15:55:00 <ShaneM_> ack Chaals
15:55:44 <David_> JS: next action when and how much time do we need for CFC, need to look a Joanie's feedback and Apples Formal Obj.
15:55:59 <Judy> s/see if it makes sense to accommodate or respond/see how to advise the co-facilitators to address this/
15:56:30 <David_> Joanie: My stuff can be informative
15:57:01 <David_> CM: anything in FA unaddressed prevviously and
15:58:07 <David_> CM: any new issues? that is the critical question
15:59:28 <Zakim> -Chaals
15:59:40 <David_> JB: can Facilitators come out with cfcs?
16:01:55 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
16:02:33 <Zakim> -IanPouncey
16:02:59 <Zakim> -Shane_McCarron
16:03:10 <David_> ACTION: Janina and Charles to work with facilitators to move questions discussed her forward
16:03:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-281 - And charles to work with facilitators to move questions discussed her forward [on Janina Sajka - due 2014-08-28].
16:03:37 <MarkS> +1 to joanie
16:03:59 <Zakim> -LJWatson
16:04:21 <David_> JS: to Joanie, was it hard to implement Longdesc?
16:04:26 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:04:35 <David_> Joanie: Actually it was easy!
16:05:04 <Zakim> -Plh
16:05:24 <David_> Zakim, list attendees
16:05:24 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been janina, David_MacDonald, Judy, Adrian_Roselli, LJWatson, Joanmarie_Diggs, Cynthia_Shelly, IanPouncey, Plh, Shane_McCarron, Liam,
16:05:27 <Zakim> ... Rich_Schwerdtfeger, John_Foliot, MarkS, Chaals, [IBM]
16:05:33 <David_> zakim, bye
16:05:33 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were janina, David_MacDonald, Judy, Adrian_Roselli, LJWatson, Joanmarie_Diggs, Cynthia_Shelly, IanPouncey, Plh, Shane_McCarron, Liam,
16:05:33 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:05:40 <David_> rrsagent, make log public
16:05:55 <David_> rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-html-a11y-minutes.html David_
16:27:18 <joanie> liam: silly question. Where is the TF issue tracker?
16:27:26 <joanie> I have an action item and want to add notes
16:28:30 <liam> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/
16:28:39 <joanie> tyvm
16:28:49 <liam> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Main_Page may also be useful
16:28:58 <liam> and http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-accessibility-tf.html
16:29:17 <liam> are you familiar at all with w3c process?
16:29:30 <joanie> still learning
16:29:39 <joanie> I'm in PFWG
16:29:42 <liam> longdesc right now is a "candidate recommendation", a call for implementations
16:30:00 <liam> if we make substantive changes it will go back to "working draft"
16:30:15 <joanie> yeah, that's why I'm not blocking things, happy with informative, etc.
16:30:21 <liam> so people are trying to work out whether we have to make changes, e.g. for Apple's objection too
16:30:35 <liam> ok (thanks for being accommodating!)
16:30:53 <joanie> I just know from experience most authors do things based on how windows screen readers work. Which is not how they work on my platform.
16:31:15 <liam> my guess is that some of the things you ask for might be better in another document, one aimed at users, e.g. the content guidelines
16:31:19 <liam> well, that's true for sure
16:31:28 <joanie> s/users/authors/ ?
16:31:36 <liam> er, yes
16:31:37 <liam> sorry
16:31:39 <joanie> :)
16:32:12 <liam> it's always hard to know how much to put in a spec about the context of a spec, how it's to be used
16:32:34 <joanie> indeed. And I based my suggestions on what was spec'ed already
16:32:59 <joanie> who knew the current contents and my proposed ones were so vastly different? ;) ;)
16:34:05 <liam> :)
16:34:32 <liam> it's actually really good to have a new implementation appear during the call for implementations :-)
16:34:52 <liam> it will help the spec move forward towards Recommendation, too.
16:34:52 <joanie> you're welcome
16:35:10 <liam> (and, I hope, help people who need it!)
16:35:49 <joanie> that remains to be seen. But it's there in Orca, so if authors do it right Orca users can access that information.
16:36:25 <liam> next to put longdescs on my own stock image Web site.
16:36:55 <joanie> that, to me, is the one really good use case for longdesc
16:37:09 <joanie> to explain in great detail what photos and other images look like
16:37:14 <liam> yes
16:37:22 <joanie> so a user who is blind can find candidate images for presos, etc.
16:37:28 <liam> (and if google indexer supported it, there would be financial reasons too)
16:37:34 <joanie> and then just get a sanity check from a sighted friend or colleague
16:37:45 <joanie> financial ain't my concern ;)
16:37:53 <liam> I do have descriptions of the images, and keywords, but longdesc lets me separate out the different purpose
16:38:09 <joanie> and really explain what's there
16:38:24 <liam> financial incentives would help all of us, although then there's a worry about longdesc spam