IRC log of aria on 2014-08-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:56:40 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:56:40 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/04-aria-irc
16:56:42 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs member
16:56:42 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #aria
16:56:44 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:56:44 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM already started
16:56:45 [trackbot]: Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:56:45 [trackbot]: Date: 04 August 2014
16:56:53 [janina]: zakim, who's here?
16:56:53 [Zakim]: On the phone I see ??P0
16:56:56 [Zakim]: On IRC I see RRSAgent, MichaelC, janina, MarkS, joanie, trackbot
16:57:07 [janina]: zakim, ??P0 is me
16:57:07 [Zakim]: +janina; got it
16:57:48 [MichaelC]: agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0104.html
16:57:48 [MichaelC]: meeting: ARIA
16:57:48 [MichaelC]: chair: Michael_Cooper
16:57:48 [MichaelC]: regrets: Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:57:48 [MichaelC]: rrsagent, make logs world
16:57:48 [MichaelC]: agenda+ Status on wiki for tracking user agent defects on ARIA 1.1 features
16:57:50 [MichaelC]: agenda+ ACTION-1339: Patch issue-508: Add treegrid as allowed role in required context role for rowgroup
16:57:54 [MichaelC]: agenda+ Issue 646: Default value Processing of required attributes
16:57:56 [MichaelC]: agenda+ Issue 633: Applying interactive types to static document roles
16:57:58 [MichaelC]: agenda+ Issue 667: Introduce a Title role
16:58:00 [MichaelC]: agenda+ Issue 660: Implicit region labels determined from headings
16:58:02 [MichaelC]: agenda+ Issue 637: Strong Encouragement of the MathML over the Math role
16:58:04 [MichaelC]: agenda+ Issue 534: Grid data model may need clarification
16:58:06 [MichaelC]: agenda+ Issue 632: Define AccessibleDescription
16:58:30 [Zakim]: +??P2
17:01:19 [Zakim]: +Joanmarie_Diggs
17:01:52 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
17:02:03 [MichaelC]: regrets+ James_Nurthen
17:02:25 [MichaelC]: zakim, IPCaller is Léonie_Watson
17:02:25 [Zakim]: +Léonie_Watson; got it
17:02:47 [LJWatson]: LJWatson has joined #aria
17:05:51 [Zakim]: +Bryan_Garaventa
17:06:58 [LJWatson]: scribe: Léonie Watson
17:07:07 [LJWatson]: scribenick LJWatson
17:07:10 [MichaelC]: zakim, next item
17:07:10 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Status on wiki for tracking user agent defects on ARIA 1.1 features" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:07:33 [LJWatson]: MC: Cynthia and I have a meeting scheduled later this week.
17:07:53 [LJWatson]: MC: Hopefully there'll be something to report next week.
17:07:59 [Zakim]: +[Apple]
17:08:06 [LJWatson]: zakim, close item 1
17:08:06 [Zakim]: agendum 1, Status on wiki for tracking user agent defects on ARIA 1.1 features, closed
17:08:08 [Zakim]: I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:08:08 [Zakim]: 2. ACTION-1339: Patch issue-508: Add treegrid as allowed role in required context role for rowgroup [from MichaelC]
17:08:12 [LJWatson]: zakim, next item
17:08:12 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "ACTION-1339: Patch issue-508: Add treegrid as allowed role in required context role for rowgroup" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:08:13 [bgaraventa1979]: bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
17:08:40 [bgaraventa1979]: zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
17:08:40 [Zakim]: sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
17:08:41 [LJWatson]: JC: This was raised at the F2F.
17:08:59 [bgaraventa1979]: zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
17:08:59 [Zakim]: ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
17:09:15 [MichaelC]: -> http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-minutes.html 23 January FtF minutes
17:09:22 [jcraig]: jcraig has joined #aria
17:09:37 [jcraig]: zakim, who is on the call?
17:09:37 [Zakim]: On the phone I see janina, Michael_Cooper, Joanmarie_Diggs, Léonie_Watson, Bryan_Garaventa, [Apple]
17:10:27 [MichaelC]: issue-508?
17:10:27 [trackbot]: issue-508 -- Add treegrid as allowed role in required context role for rowgroup -- closed
17:10:27 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/508
17:10:41 [MichaelC]: action-1339?
17:10:41 [trackbot]: action-1339 -- James Craig to Patch issue-508: Add treegrid as allowed role in required context role for rowgroup -- due 2014-01-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:10:41 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1339
17:12:20 [MichaelC]: -> https://www.w3.org/2012/04/30-pf-minutes#item13 Initial discussion behind issue-508
17:12:21 [LJWatson]: JC: The context is that we want a grid to have only a single expandable row.
17:13:00 [LJWatson]: LC: Proposal is to have rowgroup inside treegrid. It's a simple edit.
17:14:18 [jcraig]: The issue/action is about treegrid -> rowgroup, not the other way around. My mistake. This is in fact a simple edit
17:15:03 [LJWatson]: zakim, next item
17:15:03 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Issue 646: Default value Processing of required attributes" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:15:40 [jcraig]: issue-646
17:15:40 [trackbot]: issue-646 -- Since some required attrs have default values, we may need to revisit one sentence in #state_property_processing -- raised
17:15:40 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/646
17:16:09 [jcraig]: When WAI-ARIA roles are used, supported states and properties that are not present in the DOM are treated according to their default value, unless they are required.
17:16:35 [LJWatson]: MC: Suggestion is for the wording to be reviewed.
17:17:05 [LJWatson]: MC: Is this difficult for implimentation, the model, or is it straight forward?
17:17:22 [LJWatson]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:17:22 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/04-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:18:59 [LJWatson]: s/Suggestion is for the wording to be reviewed/Suggestion is for the wording to be reviewed to add in the caluse about required/
17:19:19 [Birkir]: Birkir has joined #aria
17:19:32 [LJWatson]: JC: Before we said checked is undefined, but the default state for a checkbox is undefined.
17:20:06 [LJWatson]: s/Before we said checked is undefined, /Before we said checked is unchecked,/
17:20:27 [LJWatson]: MC: Was the proposal for us to define defaults for such properties?
17:20:37 [LJWatson]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:20:37 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/04-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:21:00 [LJWatson]: JC: We started adding more implicit values for roles.
17:21:14 [LJWatson]: MC: No reason we couldn't do that for required properties.
17:21:34 [Zakim]: +Birkir
17:21:36 [LJWatson]: JC: Negligible impact for implimentation, but some work for Mike Smith.
17:22:20 [LJWatson]: MC: Any objections?
17:22:23 [bgaraventa1979]: no objection
17:23:47 [MichaelC]: action: clown to propose spec text allowing ¨implicit value for role¨ to provide default values for required properties
17:23:48 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-1493 - Propose spec text allowing ¨implicit value for role¨ to provide default values for required properties [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2014-08-11].
17:23:57 [MichaelC]: trackbot, associate action-1493 with issue-646
17:23:57 [trackbot]: action-1493 (Propose spec text allowing ¨implicit value for role¨ to provide default values for required properties) associated with issue-646.
17:27:02 [MichaelC]: action-1493: note that range controls have required properties without defaults. that´s ok, by design, the edit just needs to clarify that if there is a default, UA can use it
17:27:02 [trackbot]: Notes added to action-1493 Propose spec text allowing ¨implicit value for role¨ to provide default values for required properties.
17:27:36 [MichaelC]: close issue-646
17:27:36 [trackbot]: Closed issue-646.
17:27:48 [LJWatson]: zakim, next item
17:27:48 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "Issue 633: Applying interactive types to static document roles" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:28:01 [jcraig]: issue-633
17:28:01 [trackbot]: issue-633 -- listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items -- raised
17:28:01 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
17:29:23 [LJWatson]: JC: When you type into a browser bar like the search/location bar, there might be multiple objects in the row as you arrow down.
17:30:21 [LJWatson]: JC: Twitter does it. If you're logged into Twitter, then go to the search and arrow down for past searches, there's an x to close it, but there's no way to navigate to it.
17:31:14 [LJWatson]: JC: Effectively for each row there is the search string and an x icon to close it.
17:31:31 [LJWatson]: BG: How does that fit into the list model?
17:31:49 [LJWatson]: JC: It might be an activedescendent. It's not currently keyboard accessible at all.
17:32:09 [LJWatson]: JC: Could map the close function to the keyboard, perhaps the escape key.
17:33:36 [LJWatson]: JD: Isn't ARIA separate to keyboard interaction?
17:33:46 [LJWatson]: JC: Yes, but we recommend basic keyboard support.
17:34:07 [LJWatson]: JC: Suggest we table this until Matt is back.
17:34:15 [LJWatson]: MC: Yes.
17:34:16 [Birkir]: Let´s wait and have Matt himself explain this, I am somewhat confused.
17:34:23 [LJWatson]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:34:23 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/04-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:34:39 [jcraig]: <span class="icon close" aria-hidden="true"><span class="visuallyhidden">Remove</span></span>
17:34:44 [LJWatson]: MC: We'll leave this open until Matt is available to discuss on a call.
17:35:37 [jcraig]: html snippet was from the twitter search box (remove this saved search)
17:35:40 [LJWatson]: zakim, next item
17:35:40 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "Issue 667: Introduce a Title role" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:36:04 [jcraig]: issue-667?
17:36:05 [trackbot]: issue-667 -- Consider introducing a ¨title¨ role -- raised
17:36:05 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/667
17:36:09 [LJWatson]: MC: Came out of a PF editors meeting.
17:36:55 [LJWatson]: MC: The discussion was around h1 and other headings, in relation to a primary title for the content.
17:37:31 [LJWatson]: MC: A role of title would avoid issues with starting off headings as aria-level=1
17:37:46 [LJWatson]: JC: Because people use h1 to render the text from the banner?
17:37:49 [LJWatson]: MC: Right.
17:39:02 [Birkir]: Why ARIA, why not html5? Wouldn´t this problem be larger than just assistive technology?
17:39:38 [LJWatson]: LW: Would it be confusing to have a role of title, that was nothing to do with the title element?
17:40:11 [LJWatson]: BG: Could use aria-labelledby in conjunction with the main role, it would achieve the same outcome.
17:40:23 [LJWatson]: JC: Possibly, was thinking about the title text in the banner though.
17:40:38 [LJWatson]: MC: W3C specs are a case in point.
17:41:13 [LJWatson]: MC: There is an h1 that is the title of the spec, then the section headings (abstract, toc etc.) are h2.
17:42:32 [LJWatson]: JC: Is this a point of confusion for users?
17:43:00 [LJWatson]: MC: Don't know there's much background behind this.
17:44:17 [LJWatson]: MC: It could be argued that heading hierarchy is useful but not critical to comprehension.
17:45:06 [Birkir]: The <title> ag on the pag, when usedcorrectly, is almost always sufficient, it can agree with an h1 or an h2 heading on the page to signal the main content.
17:46:33 [LJWatson]: MC: Inclined to suggest one of two actions - 1. Make it 2.0, or 2. Drop this.
17:46:42 [LJWatson]: JC: Inclined to say drop it.
17:46:46 [LJWatson]: +1 to JC.
17:47:13 [LJWatson]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:47:13 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/04-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:47:58 [Birkir]: I do not see the benefits of this at a glance. I think adding another confusing role for bad designers will be likely to create more confusion rather than the opposite (and the cause of this is illogical use of headings).
17:48:49 [LJWatson]: JC: Looks like Rich was considering ePub where the book title would be an h1, except the heading hierarchy scopes to each chapter, not the entire book.
17:49:42 [LJWatson]: MC: I'm leaning to bumping this to 2.0, then revisiting the discussion again.
17:50:01 [LJWatson]: JC: Could we change the bug title to "Page title", then bump it to 2.0?
17:50:10 [LJWatson]: MC: Yes.
17:50:50 [LJWatson]: zakim, next item
17:50:50 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "Issue 660: Implicit region labels determined from headings" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:50:56 [jcraig]: issue-660
17:50:56 [trackbot]: issue-660 -- Implicit labels for region determined by heading and host languages. -- raised
17:50:56 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/660
17:52:11 [jcraig]: Authors SHOULD ensure that a region has a heading referenced by aria-labelledby. This heading is provided by an instance of the standard host language heading element or an instance of an element with role heading that contains the heading text.
17:52:16 [LJWatson]: JC: This is a hybrid between HTML implicit labels and aria-labelledbylabels.
17:52:42 [jcraig]: The prose implies implicit headings (first heading inside region) is sufficient but the RFC-2119 comment explicitly requires aria-labelledby. May also need to add an "implicit” heading determination bullet to the text alt computation.
17:52:43 [LJWatson]: s/aria-labelledbylabels/aria-labelledby labels/
17:52:59 [LJWatson]: JC: Not sure this is needed for 1.1
17:53:38 [LJWatson]: BG: Is there a requirement that a region needs a heading.
17:54:02 [LJWatson]: JC: It would be a "should" not "must".
17:54:32 [LJWatson]: BG: Look for explicit label, then look for heading, then if neither determine it has no label?
17:54:35 [LJWatson]: JC: Yes.
17:56:55 [LJWatson]: LW: The region role maps to HTML section element. Debate still going on.
17:57:05 [LJWatson]: JC: Suggest we wait till 2.0 for this.
17:57:09 [LJWatson]: zakim, next item
17:57:09 [Zakim]: agendum 7. "Issue 637: Strong Encouragement of the MathML over the Math role" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:57:23 [LJWatson]: rrsagentm, make minutes
17:57:31 [LJWatson]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:57:31 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/04-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:58:16 [MichaelC]: scribe: Birkir
17:58:33 [jcraig]: issue-637?
17:58:33 [trackbot]: issue-637 -- Math role should strongly encourage native MathML over custom renderings use "math" role -- raised
17:58:33 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/637
17:59:03 [jcraig]: Native accessibility of MathML is *so much better* than using a generic math role. The ARIA spec should consider strongly discouraging use of the math role in favor of MathML. We might even go as far as deprecating the math role in favor of native MathML.
17:59:04 [jcraig]: See also: ISSUE-641: Abstract role section allows nameFrom content, and some subclassed roles under section do not allow nameFrom:contents (even definition, img, and math, which seems like they should)
17:59:09 [Zakim]: -Léonie_Watson
18:01:09 [Birkir]: Ability to interactively explore math formulas is part of MathML, at least on some mobile devices. Some platforms even do MathML implementation natively.
18:02:01 [Birkir]: role="math" is more of a legacy requirement from before the days of MathML.
18:02:57 [jcraig]: ACTION: jcraig to add spec text encouraging use of MathML over the math role, re: issue-637
18:02:57 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-1494 - Add spec text encouraging use of mathml over the math role, re: issue-637 [on James Craig - due 2014-08-11].
18:03:29 [jcraig]: trackbot, associate action-1494 with issue-641
18:03:29 [trackbot]: action-1494 (Add spec text encouraging use of mathml over the math role, re: issue-637) associated with issue-641.
18:03:47 [Birkir]: Mames action: Make an edit to close the issue.
18:03:55 [jcraig]: trackbot, associate action-1494 with issue-637
18:03:55 [trackbot]: action-1494 (Add spec text encouraging use of mathml over the math role, re: issue-637) associated with issue-637.
18:04:02 [jcraig]: product-17
18:04:02 [trackbot]: Sorry, but product details are unavailable.
18:04:19 [jcraig]: trackbot, associate action-1494 with product-17
18:04:19 [trackbot]: action-1494 (Add spec text encouraging use of mathml over the math role, re: issue-637) associated with product-17.
18:04:29 [jcraig]: action-1494
18:04:29 [trackbot]: action-1494 -- James Craig to Add spec text encouraging use of mathml over the math role, re: issue-637 -- due 2014-08-11 -- OPEN
18:04:29 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1494
18:05:15 [jcraig]: trackbot, associate action-1494 with issue-637
18:05:15 [trackbot]: action-1494 (Add spec text encouraging use of mathml over the math role, re: issue-637) associated with issue-637.
18:05:46 [MichaelC]: close issue-637
18:05:46 [trackbot]: Closed issue-637.
18:06:16 [Birkir]: zakam, next item
18:06:36 [Birkir]: zakim, next item
18:06:36 [Zakim]: agendum 8. "Issue 534: Grid data model may need clarification" taken up [from MichaelC]
18:07:09 [jcraig]: issue-534
18:07:09 [trackbot]: issue-534 -- grid data model example may need clarification based on outcome of HTML Issue 204 -- raised
18:07:09 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/534
18:07:41 [MichaelC]: html-issue-204?
18:07:41 [trackbot]: html-issue-204 -- Exempt ARIA attributes from the rule that prohibits reference to hidden elements -- closed
18:07:41 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/204
18:13:09 [Birkir]: Remainder of an html5 issue regarding idrefs to hidden content. We asked for an exception for that for ARIA.
18:14:01 [jcraig]: For example, grid might be used as the invisible data model (hidden with CSS but still operable by assistive technologies) for a presentational chart.
18:14:16 [Birkir]: JC action item, pull the comment starting with "for example..." from the issue description.
18:14:31 [jcraig]: action: jcraig to remove inaccurate example sentence from #grid "For example, grid might be used as the invisible data model (hidden with CSS but still operable by assistive technologies) for a presentational chart."
18:14:31 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-1495 - Remove inaccurate example sentence from #grid "for example, grid might be used as the invisible data model (hidden with css but still operable by assistive technologies) for a presentational chart." [on James Craig - due 2014-08-11].
18:15:06 [jcraig]: associate action-1495 with product-17
18:15:06 [trackbot]: action-1495 (Remove inaccurate example sentence from #grid "for example, grid might be used as the invisible data model (hidden with css but still operable by assistive technologies) for a presentational chart.") associated with product-17.
18:15:32 [jcraig]: associate action-1495 with issue-534
18:15:33 [trackbot]: action-1495 (Remove inaccurate example sentence from #grid "for example, grid might be used as the invisible data model (hidden with css but still operable by assistive technologies) for a presentational chart.") associated with issue-534.
18:15:45 [jcraig]: close issue-534
18:15:45 [trackbot]: Closed issue-534.
18:15:56 [Birkir]: Close issue 534 wth no further action.
18:16:12 [Birkir]: nakim, next iem
18:16:45 [Birkir]: zakim, next item
18:16:45 [Zakim]: agendum 9. "Issue 632: Define AccessibleDescription" taken up [from MichaelC]
18:16:54 [jcraig]: issue-632
18:16:54 [trackbot]: issue-632 -- Define ¨accessible description¨ -- raised
18:16:54 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/632
18:17:23 [jcraig]: http://www.webcitation.org/673DWtJcY
18:17:23 [jcraig]: What is an accessible description?
18:17:24 [jcraig]: ARIA includes an algorithm for calculating accessible names and descriptions (§5.2.7). The term "accessible name" has a normative definition (§4). The term "accessible description" should also be defined. Examples should be given of the difference between the two.
18:17:37 [jcraig]: comments from ben hawkes-lewis
18:19:50 [jcraig]: Accessible Name
18:19:51 [jcraig]: The accessible name is the name of a user interface element. Each platform accessibility API provides the accessible name property. The value of the accessible name may be derived from a visible (e.g., the visible text on a button) or invisible (e.g., the text alternative that describes an icon) property of the user interface element.
18:19:52 [jcraig]: A simple use for the accessible name property may be illustrated by an "OK" button. The text "OK" is the accessible name. When the button receives focus, assistive technologies may concatenate the platform's role description with the accessible name. For example, a screen reader may speak "push-button OK" or "OK button". The order of concatenation and specifics of the role description (e.g. "button", "push-button", "clickable button") are determined by platform
18:19:52 [jcraig]: accessibility APIs or assistive technologies.
18:20:07 [Birkir]: description varies from platform to platform, it will be a challenge to write up a consistent and clear definition.
18:23:57 [Birkir]: Idea, remove references to "accessible description". Platforms do not support it consistently.
18:24:58 [jcraig]: write definition in context of dialog label and dialog description
18:30:00 [MichaelC]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:30:00 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/04-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:30:26 [Birkir]: Discussion on whether we are talking about accessible description in the platform APIs vs. the use of the aria-describedby attribute in ARIA.
18:30:54 [MichaelC]: issue-632: Preliminary discussion 4 Aug 2014 http://www.w3.org/2014/08/04-aria-minutes.html#item09
18:30:54 [trackbot]: Notes added to issue-632 Define ¨accessible description¨.
18:31:15 [Birkir]: Historical perspective, ARIA 1.0 roles did not necessarily map clearly to the platform accessibility APIs
18:32:59 [Birkir]: We need more discussion on this topic.
18:33:23 [MichaelC]: (this appears to be a ¨meaty topic¨)
18:33:42 [Zakim]: -Bryan_Garaventa
18:33:43 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper
18:33:44 [Zakim]: -Joanmarie_Diggs
18:33:45 [Zakim]: -[Apple]
18:33:45 [Zakim]: -janina
18:33:48 [Zakim]: -Birkir
18:33:49 [Zakim]: WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has ended
18:33:49 [Zakim]: Attendees were janina, Michael_Cooper, Joanmarie_Diggs, Léonie_Watson, Bryan_Garaventa, [Apple], Birkir
18:34:05 [MichaelC]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:34:05 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/04-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
21:14:00 [jcraig]: jcraig has joined #aria
22:38:13 [jcraig_]: jcraig_ has joined #aria