17:00:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:00:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/28-aria-irc
17:00:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
17:00:12 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
17:00:14 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
17:00:14 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM already started
17:00:15 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
17:00:15 <trackbot> Date: 28 July 2014
17:00:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
17:00:24 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
17:00:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see [SAP], ??P2
17:00:41 <janina> zakim, ??P2 is me
17:00:41 <Zakim> +janina; got it
17:00:47 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:01:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
17:01:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
17:01:29 <Susann_Keohane> Susann_Keohane has joined #aria
17:01:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:01:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
17:01:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, IPCaller is Leonie
17:01:53 <Zakim> +Leonie; got it
17:01:57 <Zakim> +Susann_Keohane
17:02:05 <clown> clown has joined #aria
17:02:37 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
17:02:38 <Zakim> +??P9
17:02:45 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:02:46 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:02:55 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:02:55 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:03:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0055.html
17:03:19 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #ARIA
17:03:26 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0055.html
17:03:27 <MichaelC> ack me
17:03:47 <Stefan> zakim, I am Stefan
17:03:47 <Zakim> sorry, Stefan, I do not see a party named 'Stefan'
17:04:04 <mattking> mattking has joined #aria
17:04:08 <LJWatson> zakim, IPCaller is LJWatson
17:04:08 <Zakim> sorry, LJWatson, I do not recognize a party named 'IPCaller'
17:04:25 <LJWatson> zakim, who is on the phone
17:04:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', LJWatson
17:04:40 <Stefan> Scribe: Stefan
17:04:48 <MichaelC> zakim, sap is Stefan_Schnabel
17:04:48 <Zakim> +Stefan_Schnabel; got it
17:05:07 <Zakim> +mattking
17:05:17 <Stefan> Rich: we still got alot of to do for element refernces in mapping guide
17:05:41 <Stefan> Rich: first item: michael put proposal out issues/actions when to cklose
17:05:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0048.html
17:05:53 <mattking> +1
17:06:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> +1
17:06:34 <Stefan> Janina: valuable to have consisten policy approach
17:06:48 <Stefan> Rich: no objections
17:07:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Adopt Michael
17:07:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Adopt Michael’s proposal on how to deal with open actions and issues and when to close the issues
17:08:21 <Stefan> Rich: first opic: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/651
17:08:29 <Stefan> Issue 651: Should we have more error values for aria-invalid
17:08:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/669
17:08:42 <Stefan> Rich: ssue 651 - Should we have more error values for aria-invalid
17:08:44 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-invalid
17:08:48 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
17:09:03 <MichaelC> s/RESOLUTION: Adopt Michael//
17:09:19 <MichaelC> s/Issue 651: Should we have more error values for aria-invalid/topic: Issue-651: Should we have more error values for aria-invalid/
17:09:23 <Stefan> Rich: question is do we want to expand values we currently have for aria-invalid?
17:09:35 <Stefan> Rich: issue is maybe we cant pout them correctly
17:10:00 <Stefan> Rich: we might want to have a annotation to point to
17:10:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:10:09 <Stefan> Rich : wantr to hear people's opinionm
17:10:25 <Zakim> + +1.415.624.aaaa
17:10:29 <Stefan> Matt: anything more would add complexity
17:10:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:11:04 <Stefan> Matt: referring to error messages with aria-dscribedby is less complex
17:11:06 <clown> q+ to note the core mapping guide has an entry aria-invalid for "unknown" value.
17:11:20 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
17:11:30 <Zakim> +[Apple]
17:11:37 <jcraig> Zakim, Apple is jcraig
17:11:37 <Zakim> +jcraig; got it
17:11:50 <Stefan> Rich: issue is describedby multi-purpose use needs to concatnat all
17:12:05 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
17:12:05 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa; got it
17:12:09 <LJWatson> q+
17:12:10 <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:12:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Stefan_Schnabel, janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Leonie, Susann_Keohane, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Michael_Cooper (muted), mattking, Bryan_Garaventa, jcraig
17:12:26 <jcraig> agenda?
17:12:27 <Stefan> Matt: I don't know if this is ok for screen readers since we cannot control the selective readout when they are clumped togehter this way
17:12:31 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
17:12:31 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
17:12:43 <Stefan> Rich: it is more an override
17:14:19 <mattking> q?
17:15:55 <clown> q?
17:16:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> <span aria-annotatedby=“foo” aria-annotationtype=“error”><input type=“text”></input></span><div id=“foo”>It is Matt’s fault</div>
17:17:25 <LJWatson> ack me
17:17:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> <input type=“text”aria-annotatedby=“foo” aria-annotationtype=“error” erro-invalid=“true”></input><div id=“foo”>It is Matt’s fault</div>
17:18:30 <Stefan> (discussing several variants where to put the annotatedby)
17:19:16 <jcraig> topic?
17:19:21 <jcraig> agenda?
17:19:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> <input type=“text”aria-annotatedby=“foo” aria-annotationtype=“error” aria-invalid=“true”></input><div id=“foo”>It is Matt’s fault</div>
17:19:53 <jcraig> issue-651?
17:19:53 <trackbot> issue-651 -- Allow aria-invalid to specify more types of errors including custom errors -- raised
17:19:53 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/651
17:19:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> - Improve Error information conveyance
17:19:57 <richardschwerdtfeger>       - Issue 651: Should we have more error values for aria-invalid
17:19:57 <richardschwerdtfeger>          - https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/651
17:19:57 <richardschwerdtfeger>       - Issue 669: Need to be able to reference the error description
17:19:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> separate from the aria-describedby reference often used for help
17:20:08 <jcraig> issue-669
17:20:08 <trackbot> issue-669 -- Need ability to differentiate and reference error messages on invalid form elements -- raised
17:20:08 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/669
17:20:39 <Stefan> Rch: I on't know how to put all the different error values here
17:22:20 <Stefan> Matt: you are building a relationship type always
17:22:58 <Stefan> clown: i just want to see all
17:23:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> s/on’t/don’t/
17:23:43 <Stefan> Matt: we talked about using annotations for spellinmg an grammar
17:23:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:24:03 <jcraig> q?
17:24:45 <Stefan> Joseph: webmail spelling error .. I  don'T expect aria-valid for all
17:25:06 <Stefan> Joseph: but in a container surrounding the very word I do
17:25:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:25:42 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#ariaInvalidUnknown
17:25:54 <Stefan> Joseph: there is mapping for aria-invalid with unknown value
17:26:45 <clown> zakim, ack me
17:26:45 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to note the core mapping guide has an entry aria-invalid for "unknown" value.
17:26:47 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
17:27:32 <clown> <input type=“text” aria-invalid=“It is Matt's fault”></input>
17:27:55 <Zakim> + +1.919.607.aabb
17:29:35 <Zakim> - +1.919.607.aabb
17:30:07 <Stefan> Matt: annotation is different from invalid messages
17:30:58 <Birkir> Birkir has joined #aria
17:31:26 <clown> <input type=“text” aria-invalid=“true” aria-invalidDesc="foo"></input><div id="foo">It is Matt's fault</div>
17:31:27 <clown> ?
17:31:50 <Birkir> Mine is the 919 number, sorry guys .. I will make sure to free up client meetings from 12:30 onwards EST, they always run over
17:32:28 <Zakim> + +1.919.607.aacc
17:32:38 <Stefan> Rich: try to minimize relationship to API on platforms
17:32:43 <jcraig> Zakim, aacc is Birkir
17:32:43 <Zakim> +Birkir; got it
17:34:00 <Stefan> Rich: we could direct AT vendors to read error first then other descriptions
17:34:33 <Stefan> Matt: we don't know how annotaded is mapped to the API's
17:35:07 <Stefan> Rich: we have annotation type, we have relationships, we can reuse relationships and put type in as an error
17:35:54 <Stefan> Rich: you have to maintain lists of source and targets, on some platforms it is not clear what the relationship is
17:36:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:36:03 <jcraig> s/annotaded/annotated/
17:36:36 <Stefan> Rich: do people want to add new relationship to platforms?
17:36:38 <jcraig> q+
17:37:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jcraig
17:37:29 <Stefan> jcraig: point out again, .1 release, we should be strict about what we add
17:37:51 <Stefan> jcraig: major holes already existing in platform api's
17:38:14 <Stefan> jcraig: we should not add too many features that require api extensions
17:38:28 <Stefan> Rich: we added rich text editing ....
17:38:55 <Stefan> Rich: .. expected to be done end of 2016
17:39:29 <Stefan> q+
17:39:49 <Stefan> Matt: we should have sample implementation of annotadedby
17:40:12 <Stefan> q+
17:40:29 <jcraig> s/major holes already existing in platform api's/only add things to a point-oine (.1) release if it's an error, or a major accessibility holes in existing applications and there is already existing in platform api to support/
17:41:08 <Stefan> Rich: put it on hold or move on?
17:41:23 <Stefan> q+
17:41:47 <jcraig> s/we should not add too many features that require api extensions/we should not add any features that require api extensions, because that would require revs of OS APIs and ATs/
17:42:30 <jcraig> q+
17:42:33 <jcraig> ack st
17:43:55 <clown> issue-651?
17:43:55 <trackbot> issue-651 -- Allow aria-invalid to specify more types of errors including custom errors -- raised
17:43:55 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/651
17:44:45 <jcraig> ack me
17:46:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack Birkir
17:46:28 <Stefan> annotation concept was bound to rich text editing
17:47:22 <Stefan> Birkir: put focus on error messages and activation brings yoiu on associated form field - lot of work
17:47:58 <Stefan> Birkir: aria-invalid has to put to an eror messge somewhere on the screen
17:48:09 <Stefan> Rich: IBM form builder team felt the same way
17:48:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> s/form builder/Forms Experience Builder/
17:48:58 <jcraig> q+
17:49:07 <Stefan> Matt: error icons can be made functional - pattern-like
17:49:29 <jcraig> ack me
17:49:33 <Stefan> Matt: pointing on activation to sources of informations
17:49:50 <Stefan> jamesc: useful patterns are the ones that are established
17:50:38 <Stefan> +q
17:51:34 <Stefan> +q
17:52:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> Q+
17:52:25 <Stefan> jcraig: don't want of add new api without knowing to be absolutely sure
17:53:15 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-invalid
17:54:25 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#ariaInvalidUnknown
17:54:45 <jcraig> Any string, as long as it has no spaces or special characters
17:55:21 <jcraig> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/complete#valuetype_token
17:56:29 <jcraig> aria-invalid="foo bar" would be invalid, so would "foo$%#bar", so would "it's matt's fault"
17:56:42 <jcraig> aria-invalid="foo" is valid though
17:57:15 <jcraig> it maps to aria-valid="true" if the UA does not recognize the "foo" token
17:57:24 <jcraig> q+
17:57:30 <Stefan> ria-invalid="warning" is on my wish list
17:57:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack Stefan
17:57:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
17:57:55 <Zakim> -Leonie
17:58:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jcraig
17:59:50 <Stefan> jcraig: mybe open up as a token list
18:00:30 <jcraig> ack Birk
18:00:30 <Stefan> jcraig: older browseer s will still get true
18:02:01 <clown> q+
18:02:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
18:02:34 <Stefan> Birkir: could we create a mapping on the error message ittself?
18:03:09 <Stefan> Rich: challenge is pointing to error descriptiuon + help text how to sort them out?
18:03:22 <clown> <input type="text" aria-invalid="It is Matt's fault"></input>
18:04:08 <Stefan> clown: will put the string into the AXValue
18:04:20 <Stefan> clown: using the acc. inspector
18:04:31 <Stefan> clown: bug? :)
18:05:00 <Stefan> Rich: role=error maybe this is way to do it
18:05:35 <Stefan> Rich: anything related in HTML5 to error messages? .. Seems not. (Matt replied)
18:06:05 <Stefan> Rich: can people put this on their forms teams and get some opinions?
18:07:33 <Stefan> I'd like to have allowed token values of "warning" and "info" in the list for aria-invalid
18:09:03 <Stefan> Rich: i'd like to make attempt to trow options out of the list of discussed things ...
18:12:09 <Stefan> Rich: we go back to the forms teams and check with them what they need
18:12:18 <jcraig> issue-649?
18:12:18 <trackbot> issue-649 -- Need way for controls to indicate that they start a media session such as audio or video, so that a screen reader can know to NOT speak over the beginning of the media when the control is activated. -- raised
18:12:18 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/649
18:12:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> Issue 649: Need way for controls to indicate that they start a media
18:12:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> session such as audio or video
18:12:32 <richardschwerdtfeger>      - https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/649
18:12:48 <jcraig> UIAccessibility API: UIAccessibilityTraits UIAccessibilityTraitStartsMediaSession;
18:13:56 <Stefan> jcraig: issue here is if you play play button to start audio/video it is overlayed by screen reader voicing .. we need special trait to indicate such kind of buttons to screen reader
18:14:12 <mattking> zakim, mute me
18:14:12 <Zakim> mattking should now be muted
18:14:35 <Stefan> jcraig: trait is not a property
18:14:55 <Stefan> jcraig: most equivalent to a token
18:15:20 <Zakim> -Susann_Keohane
18:16:08 <mattking> zakim, unmute me
18:16:08 <Zakim> mattking should no longer be muted
18:17:18 <Stefan> q+
18:17:18 <Stefan> +q
18:17:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack joseph
18:17:39 <jcraig> ack jose
18:17:42 <jcraig> ack ric
18:18:02 <Stefan> Rich: which roles should support this james?
18:18:12 <Stefan> jcraig: at least button
18:18:30 <Stefan> q-
18:20:21 <Stefan> Birkir: i like the feature it can be useful sometimes but is it really so annoying the add. speech output?
18:20:51 <Stefan> jcraig: sometimes yes, depends on the number of info that is spoken in some cases
18:21:20 <Stefan> Rich: james, can you write proposal what roles need this extensions?
18:21:45 <Stefan> Matt: 80% implementation on AT side .. in accessible object ..
18:22:34 <Zakim> -Stefan_Schnabel
18:22:36 <jcraig> action: add proposal for aria-startsmedia; determine what roles this would apply to, as well as boolean versus token decision: true/false, or none/audio/video, etc?
18:22:36 <trackbot> Error finding 'add'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
18:23:24 <clown> <a href="url" aria-startsmedia="true'>…</a>
18:24:37 <Zakim> +Stefan_Schnabel
18:24:47 <jcraig> action: jcraig to add proposal for aria-startsmedia; determine what roles this would apply to, as well as boolean versus token decision: true/false, or none/audio/video, etc?
18:24:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1491 - Add proposal for aria-startsmedia; determine what roles this would apply to, as well as boolean versus token decision: true/false, or none/audio/video, etc? [on James Craig - due 2014-08-04].
18:25:16 <Stefan_> Stefan_ has joined #aria
18:25:24 <Stefan_> Scribe: Stefan
18:25:32 <Stefan_> sorry .. lost connection
18:26:16 <Stefan_> James: took proposal
18:26:20 <MichaelC> ack me
18:26:30 <jcraig> trackbot associate action-1491 with issue-649
18:26:30 <trackbot> action-1491 (Add proposal for aria-startsmedia; determine what roles this would apply to, as well as boolean versus token decision: true/false, or none/audio/video, etc?) associated with issue-649.
18:26:36 <Stefan_> Scribe: Stefan_
18:26:55 <Stefan_> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:26:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/28-aria-minutes.html Stefan_
18:28:04 <Zakim> -jcraig
18:28:06 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
18:28:07 <Zakim> -Birkir
18:28:08 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
18:28:08 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
18:28:09 <Zakim> -Stefan_Schnabel
18:28:09 <Zakim> -mattking
18:28:12 <Zakim> -janina
18:28:14 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:28:14 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has ended
18:28:14 <Zakim> Attendees were janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Leonie, Susann_Keohane, Michael_Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Stefan_Schnabel, mattking, +1.415.624.aaaa, jcraig, Bryan_Garaventa,
18:28:14 <Zakim> ... +1.919.607.aabb, +1.919.607.aacc, Birkir
20:17:59 <jcraig_> jcraig_ has joined #aria
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20:46:19 <clown> clown has left #aria
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22:26:33 <janina> janina has changed the topic to: ARIA Teleconference; Monday 4 August at 17:00Z for 90 minutes; Zakim 92473#