16:56:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:56:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/07-aria-irc
16:56:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
16:56:38 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:56:40 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:56:40 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
16:56:41 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:56:41 <trackbot> Date: 07 July 2014
16:56:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
16:56:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
16:57:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
16:58:13 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has now started
16:58:20 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:58:46 <clown1> clown1 has joined #aria
16:59:25 <Zakim> + +1.603.882.aaaa
16:59:36 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:59:39 <joanie> Zakim, I am aaaa
16:59:40 <Zakim> +joanie; got it
16:59:49 <joanie> Zakim, joanie is Joanmarie_Diggs
16:59:49 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs; got it
17:00:07 <SteveF> SteveF has joined #aria
17:00:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0004.html
17:00:38 <Zakim> +??P13
17:00:55 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
17:00:55 <janina> zakim, ??P13 is me
17:00:56 <Zakim> +janina; got it
17:01:31 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson
17:01:49 <Zakim> +??P1
17:03:57 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
17:04:03 <Zakim> + +1.541.678.aabb
17:04:04 <clown1> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:04:05 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:04:13 <clown1> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:04:13 <Zakim> ok, clown1, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:05:25 <MichaelC> zakim, aabb is Matt_King
17:05:25 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
17:05:25 <Zakim> +Matt_King; got it
17:05:35 <clown> #aapi
17:05:51 <MichaelC> zakim, IPcaller is Steve_Faulkner
17:05:51 <Zakim> +Steve_Faulkner; got it
17:06:00 <Zakim> + +49.322.110.8.aacc
17:06:14 <MichaelC> zakim, aacc is Stefan_Schnabel
17:06:14 <Zakim> +Stefan_Schnabel; got it
17:06:50 <MichaelC> ack me
17:08:18 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
17:09:04 <Zakim> + +1.415.624.aadd
17:09:26 <clown> issue-436?
17:09:26 <trackbot> issue-436 -- Consider role="disclosure" to match semantics of desktop API disclosure triangles, or other show/hide widgets -- open
17:09:26 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/436
17:09:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://stevefaulkner.github.io/HTML5accessibility/aria-disclosure.html
17:09:41 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0004.html
17:09:45 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
17:09:50 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
17:10:02 <mattking> mattking has joined #aria
17:10:05 <MichaelC> agenda?
17:10:17 <MichaelC> topic: Issue 436 Creation of a disclosure (details) role
17:10:20 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
17:10:20 <Zakim> sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not see a party named 'Bryan_Garaventa'
17:10:23 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:10:27 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
17:10:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://thepaciellogroup.github.io/disclosure-button/
17:10:32 <MichaelC> zakim, aadd is Bryan_Garaventa
17:10:32 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa; got it
17:10:42 <bgaraventa1979> thanks
17:11:15 <MichaelC> sf: ^ started with button from ARIA and extended
17:11:30 <MichaelC> to play around with idea
17:11:53 <MichaelC> have been looking at disclosure widgets for a while
17:12:17 <MichaelC> HTML summary / details are specified different, but implemented similar
17:12:35 <MichaelC> summary is in practice a label, and details a control container
17:12:50 <MichaelC> s/practice/theory/
17:12:53 <MichaelC> but that´s not implemented
17:13:08 <MichaelC> usually a button or link displays the new stuff
17:13:20 <MichaelC> so disclosure follows that design pattern
17:13:35 <MichaelC> rs: extends button?
17:13:53 <MichaelC> sf: yes; command superclass an artifact of copying button
17:14:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://stevefaulkner.github.io/HTML5accessibility/aria-disclosure.html
17:14:36 <MichaelC> requires aria-expanded and aria-controls
17:14:58 <MichaelC> in the example can only control a single element
17:15:10 <MichaelC> discuss whether to allow multiple controlled elements
17:15:15 <MichaelC> since aria-controls allows that
17:15:50 <jamesn> q+ to say disclosure is more like a property not a role
17:15:51 <MichaelC> mk: don´t see summary / details in related concepts
17:16:03 <MichaelC> sf: haven´t fleshed out everything yet
17:16:33 <MichaelC> with summary / details, summary is child of details that labels it
17:16:35 <Stefan> +q I second James here
17:16:44 <MichaelC> there´s a non-specified element for expanding
17:17:05 <Stefan> q+ I second James here .. more a property than a role
17:17:10 <MichaelC> mk: like having label and control the same in a screen reader
17:17:10 <MichaelC> e.g., clickable headig
17:17:10 <MichaelC> s/headig/heading/
17:17:28 <Stefan> +q
17:17:34 <MichaelC> otherwise you have to look around for the actionable element
17:17:54 <MichaelC> sf: this is a more flexible approach
17:17:59 <MichaelC> can put button inside the heading
17:18:14 <MichaelC> with summary / details it´s less flexible
17:18:56 <MichaelC> some of reason for that design is desire for other controls inside the summary
17:19:21 <MichaelC> that´s problematic because a semi-interactive element also has other stuff
17:19:27 <MichaelC> like putting links inside label elements
17:19:49 <MichaelC> mk: maybe you want to show more than just label in summary
17:20:14 <MichaelC> sf: entire summary becomes accessible name of the anonymous control
17:20:18 <MichaelC> mk: yeah, that´s an issue
17:20:21 <MichaelC> sf: so design in HTML has issues
17:20:38 <MichaelC> implementation in Chrome and Safari is that summary element is a button that controls display of details
17:21:08 <MichaelC> rs: should descend from command; don´t want pressed state
17:21:20 <MichaelC> should reference HTML 5 summary?
17:21:29 <MichaelC> sf: don´t think that works as a base concept
17:21:48 <MichaelC> in HTML summary has to be inside details
17:22:08 <MichaelC> disclosure button can go anywhere
17:22:10 <MichaelC> rs: could have a separate label
17:22:30 <MichaelC> sf: could have a button element with its label and role=disclosure
17:22:37 <bgaraventa1979> +q
17:22:41 <MichaelC> rs: would you map summary role to this?
17:22:49 <MichaelC> sf: not sure
17:23:04 <MichaelC> summary / details needs work anyways
17:23:53 <MichaelC> I would like feedback on the HTML spec
17:24:24 <MichaelC> have raised issues on WhatWG list, no useful response
17:24:24 <SteveF> http://discourse.specifiction.org/t/re-imagining-details-summary-design/64/34
17:25:07 <SteveF> http://discourse.specifiction.org/t/re-imagining-details-summary-design/64
17:25:23 <MichaelC> rs: want to be able to reveal more than one section?
17:25:45 <MichaelC> jn: don´t like role=disclosure
17:25:49 <MichaelC> ack jam
17:25:49 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say disclosure is more like a property not a role
17:25:54 <MichaelC> think it´s a property, not a role
17:25:54 <Stefan> me either
17:26:09 <MichaelC> could be a checkbox, button, link, etc. that discloses content
17:26:22 <Stefan> +q
17:26:25 <MichaelC> rs: on button gets pressed state
17:26:43 <MichaelC> q+ to say we can rejigger taxononomy to address pressed state issue
17:26:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:26:57 <MichaelC> bg: is it like a toggle button?
17:26:59 <MichaelC> ack b
17:27:16 <Zakim> + +1.919.607.aaee
17:27:21 <MichaelC> sf: toggle button is in the button itself
17:27:27 <MichaelC> disclosure is specific to hiding content
17:27:35 <MichaelC> s/hiding/hiding or showing/
17:28:07 <MichaelC> mk: wouldn´t make sense to me to have a disclosure property on a link
17:28:11 <MichaelC> they take you somewhere else
17:28:25 <MichaelC> jn: link-like things are used for that all the time
17:28:34 <MichaelC> mk: but looks shouldn´t determine UI
17:28:58 <MichaelC> jn: different people will answer differently what should be a link and what should be a button
17:29:02 <MichaelC> various: not me
17:29:12 <MichaelC> jn: in the real world they get seriously co-mingled
17:29:37 <MichaelC> mk: still for ARIA we should be more crisp
17:29:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:29:53 <Birkir> Birkir has joined #aria
17:29:58 <MichaelC> why would you use this role?
17:30:28 <MichaelC> jn: if you click ¨show more¨ isn´t it better to know it´s a link than be told it´s disclosing somewhere else
17:30:37 <MichaelC> rs: mixing content and presentation
17:30:41 <MichaelC> jn: that happens all the time
17:30:48 <MichaelC> rs: it´s really difficult for users
17:31:01 <Stefan> * disclosure as a property is more flexible
17:31:19 <MichaelC> mk: it´s one thing for people to misuse spec, and another for us to make spec fit the vernacular
17:31:27 <MichaelC> jn: I get questions about this stuff all the time
17:31:40 <MichaelC> if UI designers want it to appear as a link, it should be exposed that way to everyone
17:31:50 <MichaelC> they don´t know what´s happening under the surface
17:32:00 <MichaelC> but if they want it to look like a link, it should act like one
17:32:10 <MichaelC> rs: very confusing
17:32:11 <MichaelC> mk: extremely confusing
17:32:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:32:22 <MichaelC> want screen reader to say what it does, not what other people would all it
17:32:27 <MichaelC> jn: I get the opposite
17:32:30 <SteveF> q+
17:32:47 <bgaraventa1979> just to clarify for my original question, is the purpose of disclosure to automate the process of hiding or showing a section?
17:32:53 <MichaelC> mk: understand the desire to have presentation and function match better
17:32:59 <Birkir> If it looks like a button, I a a screen reader user want it to be announced as a button. Not doing so can create a lot of confusion e.g. when working with sighted peers, customer service reps etc.
17:33:07 <MichaelC> but screen reader users get their cues from the roles
17:33:23 <MichaelC> jn: if it looks like a duck it should quack like a duck
17:33:36 <MichaelC> ack s
17:33:36 <Birkir> ... and taste like a duck, yumm, I want lunch
17:33:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack Stefan
17:34:05 <MichaelC> sf: having it as a property retains flexibility
17:34:06 <MichaelC> ack me
17:34:06 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say we can rejigger taxononomy to address pressed state issue
17:34:13 <MichaelC> ack me
17:34:16 <MichaelC> zakim, unmute me
17:34:16 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper was not muted, MichaelC
17:34:18 <mattking> q+
17:34:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack MichaelC
17:34:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:35:10 <MichaelC> mc: make sure we don´t get stuck on existing taxonomy
17:35:19 <SteveF> we have a role in OS x https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/UserExperience/Reference/Accessibility_RoleAttribute_Ref/Role.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40007870-Roles-AXDisclosureTriangle
17:35:22 <MichaelC> if it´s a problem because of inheriting aria-pressed, rejigger taxonomy so that doesn´t happen
17:35:28 <MichaelC> zakim, mute me
17:35:28 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper should now be muted
17:35:58 <MichaelC> ack me
17:36:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-1.1/roles#button
17:36:27 <SteveF> from leonie "IMO if content is revealed it should be aria-expanded, if it is a toggle (like the play/pause button on a media player), then aria-pressed would be better."
17:37:10 <MichaelC> rs: button supports aria-expanded
17:37:15 <MichaelC> how does that differ from disclosure?
17:37:21 <MichaelC> jn, mk: yes
17:37:45 <MichaelC> mk: thought this was coming from HTML 5 matching
17:37:58 <MichaelC> but we´re realizing in ARIA we have toggle buttons, and expanded / collapsed
17:38:07 <MichaelC> so sounds more like a design pattern than a new feature
17:38:10 <Birkir> aria-expanded assumes the content that is displayed/hidden comes inline to the control. would the same to apply to "disclosure" role, since aria-controls is required I assume it is not necessarily so then.
17:38:30 <Birkir> that is the only difference I can think off
17:38:45 <MichaelC> rs: this exercise was to put the design pattern into a role to see how it would map to HTML 5
17:39:16 <MichaelC> mk: but you say HTML 5 implementations don´t align with spec
17:39:22 <MichaelC> so this won´t help anything?
17:39:40 <MichaelC> sf: there are undefined anonymous controls that is the disclosure widget
17:39:54 <MichaelC> want to be able to map that to disclosure role
17:39:58 <MichaelC> but that thing isn´t defined
17:40:14 <MichaelC> mk: how about map to button with aria-expanded?
17:40:16 <MichaelC> sf: could do that
17:40:59 <MichaelC> rs: with a disclosure role, aria-expanded could be required
17:41:09 <MichaelC> mk: but the mapping can provide that effectively required anyways
17:41:37 <bgaraventa1979> +q
17:41:44 <MichaelC> rs: so, the question comes to, do we want to wrap this design pattern into a role, or just have it as a design pattern with certain states and properties?
17:41:59 <MichaelC> mk: fewer roles is better
17:42:07 <MichaelC> more roles is more to implement and more for users to figure out
17:42:16 <Birkir> How many screen reader users are familiar with role="disclosure"? Apple users perhaps, but overloading users with roles and sidget types can end up doing more harm than good.
17:42:23 <clown> <span role="button"  aria-expanded="false" aria-controls="something">Expand section 1</span>
17:42:24 <MichaelC> not seeing an intrinsic advantage here
17:42:37 <MichaelC> sf: not making this role up
17:42:42 <MichaelC> it´s existed in OSX for some time
17:43:10 <MichaelC> mk: ack; from Mac world brings user base
17:43:14 <MichaelC> sf: in Windows they exist too, just not in AAPI
17:43:26 <MichaelC> bg: ¨disclosure¨ is also a legal term
17:43:26 <clown> <span role="disclosure" aria-expanded="false" aria-controls="something">Expand section 1</span>
17:43:52 <MichaelC> rs: better name, or no role?
17:44:03 <MichaelC> bg: no role
17:44:18 <MichaelC> mk: me too
17:44:32 <MichaelC> rs: happy not to add a role
17:44:40 <MichaelC> mk: one less thing to test
17:44:43 <MichaelC> rs: :)
17:45:07 <MichaelC> SF, do you have enough input to do an HTML 5 mapping?
17:45:10 <MichaelC> ack me
17:46:29 <MichaelC> mc: long term we might want to harmonize AAPIs around ARIA
17:46:40 <MichaelC> if exists in OSX, maybe we want a role to harmonize around?
17:47:05 <MichaelC> rs: can just harmonize the mappings around the AAPI mappings to design pattern
17:47:10 <MichaelC> ack m
17:47:11 <MichaelC> ack b
17:47:29 <MichaelC> mk: don´t like ¨expanded¨ buttons
17:47:37 <MichaelC> though can live with
17:47:54 <MichaelC> have wondered if there should be a region associated with such buttons
17:48:14 <MichaelC> is that left to context, or should it be a normal expectation?
17:49:23 <MichaelC> and if there´s a region, is expanded / collapsed on the region or the control?
17:49:30 <MichaelC> and is control inside or outside the region?
17:49:37 <MichaelC> rs: whatever author likes
17:49:54 <MichaelC> rs: So, it sounds like we don´t see need to mint a disclosure role
17:50:06 <MichaelC> and can provide HTML 5 mapping of summary / details to existing ARIA features
17:50:12 <MichaelC> sf: ok
17:50:30 <Birkir> It's a decent summary of the roles of the summary
17:50:34 <MichaelC> clown: Core-AAM should be updated then
17:50:48 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/WD-core-aam-1.1-20140612/#mapping_role_table
17:51:47 <MichaelC> looking at twisties / twiddles / expandos
17:52:18 <MichaelC> sf: it´s against spec for a summary to be implemented as a button
17:52:18 <MichaelC> but that´s what it is
17:52:39 <MichaelC> sf, clown: <triaging the mapping history>
17:53:50 <clown> <summary aria-expanded="true" role="button" style="-moz-user-select: none;" tabindex="0">
17:55:16 <MichaelC> various: nitty-gritties in the mapping tables
17:55:28 <MichaelC> rs: agreement not to introduce disclosure role?
17:55:54 <MichaelC> disagreement?
17:56:03 <MichaelC> sf: disagree but not vehemently
17:56:13 <MichaelC> RESOLUTION: Do not introduce disclosure role
17:56:42 <MichaelC> close issue-436
17:56:42 <trackbot> Closed issue-436.
17:56:47 <MichaelC> ack me
17:57:27 <Zakim> -Steve_Faulkner
17:57:33 <MichaelC> topic: Issue 626 text alt computation on recursions are unclear
17:57:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/WD-core-aam-1.1-20140612/#mapping_role_table
17:57:39 <MichaelC> issue-626?
17:57:39 <trackbot> issue-626 -- text alt computation statements on recursion are unclear -- open
17:57:39 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/626
17:57:44 <clown> issue-626?
17:57:45 <trackbot> issue-626 -- text alt computation statements on recursion are unclear -- open
17:57:45 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/626
17:58:47 <MichaelC> mk: right, sounds like an issue
17:58:51 <MichaelC> avoid infinite nesting?
17:58:58 <MichaelC> clown: that´s what the confusing statement tries to do
18:00:03 <MichaelC> mk: so it says it won´t concatenate IDREF names before stuffing them into the name?
18:00:16 <MichaelC> rs: a single element should not appear more than once in a name computation
18:00:21 <MichaelC> clown: avoid infinite loops
18:00:29 <MichaelC> jn: but people should be able to do what they want
18:00:50 <MichaelC> in tables, use aria-labelledby to provide a heading for a cell
18:01:10 <MichaelC> referencing a rowheader and colheader
18:01:10 <MichaelC> yet the rowheader also references the colheader
18:01:13 <MichaelC> what should happen?
18:01:22 <MichaelC> rs: intent is not to use it twice
18:01:52 <MichaelC> jn: @@
18:01:57 <MichaelC> clown: this happens?
18:02:03 <MichaelC> jn: for sure
18:02:15 <MichaelC> clown: what do browsers do?
18:02:26 <MichaelC> jn: not sure, but a bug was filed and fixed on Firefox
18:02:36 <MichaelC> rs: so label shouldn´t recurse on itself?
18:03:00 <MichaelC> bg: have had form fields labeled by the previous form field
18:03:07 <MichaelC> a kind of dynamic labeling technique
18:03:31 <MichaelC> jn: a challenge there because you want the value of the field
18:03:42 <MichaelC> mk: er, um
18:04:18 <MichaelC> bg: FF gets label and value right now
18:04:29 <MichaelC> mk: think IE is closer to spec
18:04:41 <MichaelC> even though that´s a valid use case, spec doesn´t support
18:05:32 <MichaelC> rs: from issue, continue following IDREF arcs until encountering one that´s already been referenced, then stop
18:05:42 <MichaelC> is that the direction we want it to go?
18:05:52 <MichaelC> <various> think so
18:06:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> new text:
18:06:13 <MichaelC> s/<various>/various:/
18:06:59 <richardschwerdtfeger>  in other words, aria-labelledby is infinitely recursive until the point where it references an element that has already been referenced in this computation,
18:07:01 <bgaraventa1979> I'm in favor of making the value part of the calc for fields with values, since this is useful for aria-describedby in some cases
18:07:28 <richardschwerdtfeger>  in other words, aria-labelledby is recursive until the point where it references an element that has already been referenced in this computation,
18:10:02 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-1.1/roles#textalternativecomputation
18:10:42 <MichaelC> <digging around in spec for wording to modify>
18:12:23 <richardschwerdtfeger>  (in other words, aria-labelledby is recursive until the point where it references an element that has already been referenced in this computation, so it will not cause loops)
18:15:27 <clown> <span id="first" aria-labelledby="second"> … <span id="second" aria-labelledby="third">  … <span id="third">foobar</span>
18:16:11 <jamesn> zakim, who is making noise?
18:16:22 <Zakim> jamesn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.919.607.aaee (56%), Rich_Schwerdtfeger (18%), Bryan_Garaventa (23%), James_Nurthen (4%), Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:16:25 <Zakim> ... (33%), Matt_King (25%)
18:17:21 <MichaelC> bg: as I understand it should follow recursion until getting to node you´reon
18:17:35 <MichaelC> jn: how could you ever reference value of something?
18:17:48 <MichaelC> s/you´reon/you´re on/
18:18:08 <MichaelC> when there is a big massive algorithm, what authors do won´t result in something intelligible
18:18:21 <MichaelC> mk: making it recursive is the way to make sure what comes out is ordered an intelligible
18:18:35 <MichaelC> order of IDs is precise
18:18:54 <MichaelC> when referencing an element, it´s already had its label calculated
18:19:23 <MichaelC> jn: right now proposal introduces a problem
18:19:37 <MichaelC> rs: says don´t want to go into infinite loop
18:20:04 <MichaelC> jn: if someone references element with aria-labelledby, don´t use aria-labelledby
18:20:16 <MichaelC> mk: that was how JamesC read it as well
18:20:33 <MichaelC> makes it sound as if it goes only one level deep
18:20:46 <MichaelC> but the issue is that it shouldn´t say that
18:20:56 <MichaelC> and we never previously understood that
18:21:04 <MichaelC> hear you as saying it should only go to one level
18:22:25 <MichaelC> <scribe is getting very confused trying to scribe people´s recursive exploration of a question of recursion>
18:23:08 <MichaelC> clown: @@
18:23:58 <MichaelC> rs: <reads something>
18:24:04 <clown> <span id="foo"  aria-labelldby="bar snafu foo"  aria-label="foo-label">  <— the end of the label for this elemen tis "foo-label".
18:24:15 <MichaelC> jn: not a problem as written, but think I´m reading it differently from you all
18:24:37 <MichaelC> mk: @@
18:24:45 <MichaelC> rs: so there´s a failsafe to stop recursion
18:25:10 <MichaelC> new text adds confusion?
18:25:20 <MichaelC> jn: does everything think it does need to be recursive?
18:25:28 <MichaelC> rs: what does it break?
18:25:33 <MichaelC> jn: breaks grids
18:25:54 <MichaelC> <grid example from start of this topic>
18:26:01 <Birkir> headers/id?
18:26:40 <MichaelC> need to be able to reference a cell´s row and column headers, plus the row headers´s column header
18:26:48 <Birkir> true, .. breaks, for every cell you get the row header and column header of the cell, plus the column header of the row header column.
18:27:04 <MichaelC> clown: we didn´t test this
18:27:13 <MichaelC> don´t think we considered the issue
18:27:21 <MichaelC> jn: but it´s a very real use case
18:27:33 <MichaelC> rs: issue is one UA doesn´t compute names?
18:27:51 <MichaelC> jn: can´t do these things automatically all the time
18:28:18 <MichaelC> mk: grid only supports simple table constructs
18:28:18 <MichaelC> rs: can embed one in another
18:29:36 <MichaelC> rs: so, there is an issue with the current text
18:29:42 <MichaelC> what would make it clearer?
18:29:46 <MichaelC> jn: don´t know right now
18:30:19 <MichaelC> ack me
18:30:29 <Zakim> -Stefan_Schnabel
18:30:39 <Zakim> - +1.919.607.aaee
18:30:46 <MichaelC> mk: there is an action to straighten out the algorithm with a diagram
18:30:53 <clown> action-1474?
18:30:53 <trackbot> action-1474 -- Cynthia Shelly to Work with joseph s. and david b. to rewrite text alternative computation for both the aria spec. and the core accessibility api mappings specification. -- due 2014-07-07 -- OPEN
18:30:53 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1474
18:31:01 <clown> action-1475?
18:31:01 <trackbot> action-1475 -- Cynthia Shelly to Work with michael c. and joseph s. to create up to 4 accessibility diagrams showing the application (before and after) of applying role=“presentation”/none -- due 2014-07-07 -- OPEN
18:31:01 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1475
18:32:30 <jamesn> so am I correct i reading:
18:32:32 <jamesn>   <input type="checkbox" id="flash">
18:32:33 <jamesn>     <label for="flash">
18:32:33 <jamesn>       Flash the screen
18:32:33 <jamesn> 
18:32:33 <jamesn>       <input type="text" value="3" size="2" id="numTimes" aria-label="Number of times to flash screen">
18:32:33 <jamesn>       times
18:32:35 <jamesn>   </label>
18:32:45 <jamesn> results in "Flash the screen 3 times"
18:32:58 <jamesn> But
18:32:59 <jamesn> <input type="checkbox" id="flash" aria-labelledby="a">
18:32:59 <jamesn>   <label id="a">
18:32:59 <jamesn>     Flash the screen
18:32:59 <jamesn>     <input type="text" value="3" size="2" id="numTimes" aria-label="Number of times to flash screen">
18:32:59 <jamesn>     times
18:33:00 <jamesn>   </label>
18:33:20 <jamesn> results in Flash the screen Number of times to flash the screen times
18:33:45 <jamesn> ... not quite the same issue but still weird
18:35:26 <jamesn> TPAC
18:35:55 <MichaelC> <sorting of related actions>
18:36:03 <MichaelC> rrsagent, list participants
18:36:03 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'list participants', MichaelC.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:36:12 <MichaelC> zakim, list participants
18:36:12 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Rich_Schwerdtfeger, +1.603.882.aaaa, Joanmarie_Diggs, janina, Jon_Gunderson, Michael_Cooper, +1.541.678.aabb, Joseph_Scheuhammer,
18:36:15 <Zakim> ... Matt_King, Steve_Faulkner, +49.322.110.8.aacc, Stefan_Schnabel, Cynthia_Shelly, +1.415.624.aadd, James_Nurthen, Bryan_Garaventa, +1.919.607.aaee
18:36:23 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:36:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/07-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:41:50 <bgaraventa1979> :)
18:41:51 <jongund> bye
18:41:58 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
18:42:14 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
18:42:16 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
18:42:16 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
18:42:17 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
18:42:18 <Zakim> -Matt_King
18:42:19 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
18:42:22 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
18:42:23 <Zakim> -janina
18:42:25 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:42:25 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has ended
18:42:25 <Zakim> Attendees were Rich_Schwerdtfeger, +1.603.882.aaaa, Joanmarie_Diggs, janina, Jon_Gunderson, Michael_Cooper, +1.541.678.aabb, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Matt_King, Steve_Faulkner,
18:42:25 <Zakim> ... +49.322.110.8.aacc, Stefan_Schnabel, Cynthia_Shelly, +1.415.624.aadd, James_Nurthen, Bryan_Garaventa, +1.919.607.aaee
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