See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 30 June 2014
<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
<Birkir> Birkir Gunnarsson the the secret 919 code
<Birkir> Raleigh, North Carolina!
<Birkir> like the Life Aquatic discussions, great movie too ;)
<Birkir> Next time, I prommise, not quite set up this time.
<Birkir> I promise not to scribe in Icelandic .. and next time will be next Monday, promise
<richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: jongund
RS: Intro to the specs
JS: We will publish heart beats
in we want to be updating intro, we need the newer
thinking
... Please look at the intro, looking for volunteers to look at
the intros
RS: I have to do it for SVG
... Things have chnaged form when we started ARIA
... I am willing to take a stab for ARIA spec and Core and I
will be doing it for SVG
... I will not being doing it for HTML5
MC: We will have several fingers in that pot, but if rich can do a first pass that will be a big help
RS: Are there specific points you want in the intros
<MichaelC> ACTION: schwerdtferger to draft introductions for ARIA 1.1, Core-AAM 1.1, and SVG-AAM 1.1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/30-aria-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Error finding 'schwerdtferger'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
MC: I have a few things, write from the perspective of someone who is not familiar with the technology or the problem, help people understand the problem and solution
RS: We are looking at application wide changes
<trackbot> #aria is associated with #pf.
<trackbot> #aria is associated with #pf.
<MichaelC> ACTION: RS to draft introductions for ARIA 1.1, Core-AAM 1.1, and SVG-AAM 1.1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/30-aria-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1470 - Draft introductions for aria 1.1, core-aam 1.1, and svg-aam 1.1 [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2014-07-07].
RS: We are trying to harmonize
the integration of accessibility around graphics and
HTML5
... ARIA 2.0 is way off in the future
... Addressing things that we were not able to address in
1.0
... We are trying to fix all these particular issue
JS: We need a requirements
document, issues that we are working on, when we are done we
point to a problem statement ...
... looking for some to help with that
... Did I miss anything
MC: Two important roles we want
to consider, how does the spec meet its requirement
... JG: I would be willing to help with that
<MichaelC> ACTION: jon to start list of requirements for ARIA 1.1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/30-aria-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1471 - Start list of requirements for aria 1.1 [on Jon Gunderson - due 2014-07-07].
MC: A single requirements document or separate documents for each spec, need to make a conscious decision
JS: JRG think about that and give
a recommendation
... When do we want to publish a new heart beat, we need to get
ahead of TPAC, early october
RS: About 3 months, about every
quarter
... any objections?
MC: We need to keep that in our minds...
JS: We need to test early, when we want to do that
RS: To that point, I would like to get some feedback, for role="none" I have been filing bugs
CS: I would prefer something other than a wiki
JS: Concerned about about maintanence
CS: Bugzilla
RS: Bugzilla for all the other bugzilla
<Birkir> assign someone to file issues against browsers/assistive technologies (or to oversee such a process)?
CS: A bug for each browser and linked ...
RS: Do you want to do it?
CS: When do we want to start testing?
RS: We want to get the defects in the browser
CS: Let me talk to IE team on what would help them
RS: You can talk to mozilla on the list, JC is out for 3 weeks
CS: I can talk to IE team and ping david
RS: I can't do anymore right now
JG: I have some people who can help with testing
MC: It sounds like we have some people to create test cases
RS: FOr role=presentation, we can do role="none"
JS: That is an east
MC: test harness copy some stuff over...
JG: Question about nested tables and role=presentation
RS: Can JRG create test cases
<Birkir> If they are accessible, I would be happy to help out with test case writing.
JG: We can try it
<Birkir> I am new to this process.
<MichaelC> ACTION: cooper to work with Jon Gunderson and his team on creating test cases for for ARIA 1.1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/30-aria-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1472 - Work with jon gunderson and his team on creating test cases for for aria 1.1 [on Michael Cooper - due 2014-07-07].
<MichaelC> ACTION: cynthia to prepare recommendation on automation of tracking of bugs filed with various implementers [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/30-aria-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1473 - Prepare recommendation on automation of tracking of bugs filed with various implementers [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2014-07-07].
RS: Anything else JS?
... Issue 658
... This is clean up
... Annotation role....., MS proposal for annotation
... We have already done this, can we close, any
objections?
... Resolution to close 568
... Is Joespeh S on today?
... Lets hold off until the next weekend
... Issue 493
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/493
RS: Why is closed
MC: I am not sure this working, JC closes the issue when an action is created to resolve the issue
RS: Issue 522
... This is from JN
<jamesn> issue-522?
<trackbot> issue-522 -- Name Computation 2A - bullet 3 confusion -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/522
RS: Is aria-labelledby and aria-label .... not marked as presentational....
JN; This is how other people are reading it, people are not getting the child elements for role="presentation"
JN: If something is marked presentational it should be used in accessible name calc
CS: Firefox gets the name from going through the accessible tree, not the DOM
JN: The name calculation says what should be done, and the presentation should not block the name calculation
CS: it seems the description is unclear
MK: They decided to put all the
content of a table into one element, so a screen reader is
treating the table as a paragraph
... this is a miss understanding on how to implement role
presentation
CS: Should this be part of the implementation guide, maybe a flow chart or several examples
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#textalternativecomputation
JN: There is not the same understanding even with people whoa re members of this group
RS: Let's say we have a label on something, and the button is marked presentational, the name has to be applied to what..
<bgaraventa1979> +q
JN: creating a an example .....
<jamesn> <div id="a">some text<button role=presentation> more text </button></div><input aria-labelledby="a">
MK: that is one thing that is not clear, we need to give something a role ...
CS: DIV has a role of group
MK: It does not
CS: It does on every
browser
... Every windows browser
RS: I am sure that is not the case
MK: I thin your right rich
... If is suppose to be something other than what it was, ....
the content still has to be there, and the that content should
have a role, even though it is different
RS: The text content is there,
but there is no role
... In SVG there is a lot of things that will have
role="none"
<jamesn> in FF it seems to be role of section
RS: There are different roles for
DIV in various browsers and OSs
... the text has a node
... Text in the browser has role of readonly text
MK: We do not say that specfically
RS: We don't have a role a mapping for text
MK: We don't have a role mapping for role=presentation
RS: Paragraph has roles of ....
CS: What are the roles for span
MK: It is interesting though ....
<jamesn> span is closest as spans can have child elements.....
RS: span has a number of different roles depending on OS and browser
<jamesn> ugh...
MK: we have a defect in FF they
put all the text of a layout table as a single line
... For a able to be readable needs to have some type of
separator for text in the different cells
... giving an example .....
CS: that is a data table it
should not be a layout table
... You could make that a data table, another example.....
MK: In practice it does't work very well, we need a more paragraph model
CS: You have images, text ...., really should be absolutelely positioned...
<Birkir> If they are accessible, I would be happy to help out with test case writing.Divs would do the trick with a presentational table, they are blocklevel elements, spans make tables with role="presentation" near unreadable, that is true
MK: If they are spaced
differently, the screen reader needs to know about the spacing
too
... That's why the role of whats left matters
RS: Button doesn't have any
semantic children
... The button objects goes away and you just have text
... On the table all the children go away....
... That makes sense too
MK: We did have a separate issue of buttons have popup menus
RS: Look at this as semantic sugar, when you take it away you just have content
JN: I reported it, brian was
interpreting different from me
... Reading a e-mail response....
Brian: I know which one your talking about now..
JN: I requesting a clarification
so people reading it for the first time have a better
understanding it
... There is confusion even among current working group
memebers
RS: Which aspect of the text could help with clarification
<richardschwerdtfeger> If aria-labelledby and aria-label are both empty or undefined, and if the element is not marked as presentational (role="presentation"), check for the presence of an equivalent host language attribute or element for associating a label, and use those mechanisms to determine a text alternative. For example, in HTML, the img element's alt attribute defines a label string and the label element references the form element it labels. See How to Specify
<richardschwerdtfeger> Alternate Text ([HTML], section 13.8) and HTML 5 Requirements for providing text to act as an alternative for images ([HTML5], section 4.8.1.1).
JN: We understand it now, so it
is hard for us to identify the problem
... Maybe we say that the child text content does not go away
and is still part of the accessibility API
MK: Can we simplify role=presentation now has a role=text or something else (e.g. equivalent), would that help
RS: We spent a lot of time
writing this, reading through spec text....
... Do people understand the text?
Brian: Developers don't understand the difference between the accessibility tree and the DOM
RS: The mis match between the DOM and accessibility tree
MK: There is more than that, must "expose" content, we don't say how that should be done
CS: The bulleted list is not the
best to way to explain algorithm, pauedo code or
input/output
... maybe some examples from good test cases
... There is too much open to interpretation
RS: So we can't put an exhaustive
list in the spec, do we need to show an example
... One where you have a single table and show the new
tree
... Nested data table in a layout table
... button with role presentation
... Do these sound like the three scenarios we need
JN: I am not going to comment
until i see the new description
... We need get some new people to look at it
RS: is putting it in the role presentation for ..
JN: We need them in both places
CS: Even implementators
RS: I am worried about the spec getting to big
MC: We use supporting documents
RS: I am looking at bullet 3 again, this was difficult approach
<Birkir> aria accessible name calculation is also tricky in that the spec does not exclusively state if user agents should stop when they find an accessible name, or continue down the list.
CS: Give me an action
<Birkir> think a button with an aria-label and a title.
RS: Can you work on this with Joesph, because he wrote this section
CS: We can do it during the
implementation call
... It is really important
<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: Cynthia Work with Joseph S. and David B. to rewrite text alternative computation for both the ARIA spec. and the Core Accessibility API mappings specification. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/30-aria-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1474 - Work with joseph s. and david b. to rewrite text alternative computation for both the aria spec. and the core accessibility api mappings specification. [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2014-07-07].
MK: I now understand why we have problems in the browser, IE column, exposes role system ..., see general rules
RS: Who did that?
MK: That's what is says to do ...
CS: Part of the over all parent, a string within the windows
MK: Expose the content, means to put it in the tree
RS: We want to say the semantics goes away...
MK: If is is going to be in the
tree, even plain text has some kind of role
... We want to make sure there is a sensible mapping, which we
do not have
RS: Do you want put the examples in the spec, but the spec gets bigger
JN: the authoring practices can
have more extensive examples
... Authors need to know what is going to happen
MK: I agree with you JN
CS: An input and output table is crucial...
MK: We need to train authors on how to use it properly
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-DOM-Level-3-Core-20040407/core.html
RS: Do you want to create that?
CS: I would like to have a
collaborator
... What kind of drawing,I need to translate the thought into a
picture
MC: I would like to help
CS: This would be good at the FTF meeting
RS: Creating action item...
<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: Cynthia work with Michael C. and Joseph S. to create up to 4 Accessibility diagrams showing the application (before and after) of applying role=“presentation”/none [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/30-aria-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1475 - Work with michael c. and joseph s. to create up to 4 accessibility diagrams showing the application (before and after) of applying role=“presentation”/none [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2014-07-07].
<MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1475 with issue-522
<trackbot> action-1475 (Work with michael c. and joseph s. to create up to 4 accessibility diagrams showing the application (before and after) of applying role=“presentation”/none) associated with issue-522.
<MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1474 with issue-522
<trackbot> action-1474 (Work with joseph s. and david b. to rewrite text alternative computation for both the aria spec. and the core accessibility api mappings specification.) associated with issue-522.
RS: We have 7 minutes left
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#directory
RS: Any objects, content from the name from?
MK: Don't name from content
JN: What name from content, all
the content
... For a table, it will be its contents, unless there is
another label
MK: Table needs a caption ....
JN: Your right
RS: Any object, the contents value for directory?
MK: Do you delete that role in the table...
RS: I would be just the author,
not from contents
... Action to editor
<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: jcraig remove contents from the list of Name From values for role “directory” [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/30-aria-minutes.html#action08]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1476 - Remove contents from the list of name from values for role “directory” [on James Craig - due 2014-07-07].
JN: Role=row takes name form contents
RS: Like an e-mail program
<MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1476 with issue-643
<trackbot> action-1476 (Remove contents from the list of name from values for role “directory”) associated with issue-643.
JN: Contents might be the right thing...
MK: If it shouldn't have a name it should only have a value
RS: Might break a product
... We can take it off line
rrsagent draft, minutes
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