13:51:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eval
13:51:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-eval-irc
13:51:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:51:59 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eval
13:52:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3825
13:52:01 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
13:52:02 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
13:52:02 <trackbot> Date: 19 June 2014
13:52:14 <Vivienne> Vivienne has joined #eval
13:54:48 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #eval
13:55:17 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:55:17 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has not yet started, shadi
13:55:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see Kathy, Vivienne, Zakim, RRSAgent, Mike_Elledge, Bim, shadi, trackbot
13:57:41 <martijnhoutepen> martijnhoutepen has joined #eval
13:58:18 <shadi> zakim, call shadi-617
13:58:19 <Zakim> ok, shadi; the call is being made
13:58:20 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
13:58:23 <Zakim> +Shadi
13:58:49 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #eval
13:58:50 <EricVelleman> EricVelleman has joined #eval
13:58:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:58:57 <Vivienne> Zakim, IPcaller is me
13:58:57 <Zakim> +Vivienne; got it
13:59:43 <Zakim> +Detlev
14:00:34 <alistair> alistair has joined #eval
14:00:46 <alistair> I shall be 5 mins late...
14:00:50 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
14:00:50 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
14:01:00 <Vivienne> zakim, mute me
14:01:00 <Zakim> Vivienne should now be muted
14:01:25 <MaryJo> MaryJo has joined #eval
14:02:04 <Zakim> +Mary_Jo_Mueller
14:02:09 <Detlev> hi
14:02:26 <Vivienne> Hi Mary_Jo
14:02:44 <Zakim> +Kathy_Wahlbin
14:02:49 <Sarah_Swierenga> Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval
14:02:58 <Zakim> +Mike_Elledge
14:02:59 <EricVelleman> I have problems calling in, trying
14:03:34 <Zakim> +Sarah_Swierenga
14:03:46 <Vivienne> hi guys
14:04:04 <Zakim> +??P15
14:04:24 <MaryJo> scribe:MaryJo
14:04:34 <EricVelleman> Zakim, ??P15 is me
14:04:34 <Zakim> +EricVelleman; got it
14:04:38 <EricVelleman> testing
14:04:45 <EricVelleman> 123
14:05:13 <MaryJo> zakim, next item
14:05:13 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
14:05:27 <MaryJo> topic: Two new editor drafts
14:05:30 <shadi> Topic: updated WCAG-EM Editor Draft
14:06:25 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20140617
14:06:26 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20140617v2
14:06:34 <MaryJo> SA: Last week we didn't get through all of the changes.  There are editorial comments to add in that are not substantial.  Substantial comments have all been addressed.
14:06:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:07:01 <alistair> zakim, ipcaller is alistair
14:07:01 <Zakim> +alistair; got it
14:07:15 <MaryJo> SA: Merging of 3.a, 3.b, and 3.c - there were some concerns so that's why there are 2 drafts for this week to look at the options.
14:07:30 <MaryJo> SA: The merging of step 4 has been completed in the draft
14:07:35 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20140617#toc
14:08:16 <MaryJo> SA: Step 1d - Evaluation methods was agreed to move to step 4.
14:08:56 <MaryJo> SA: Define accessibility support baseline section has changed substantially.
14:09:13 <richard> richard has joined #eval
14:09:14 <MaryJo> SA: Step 2 is largely unchanged except for editorials.
14:09:46 <MaryJo> SA: The order has been changed in step 3 to match step 2.
14:10:08 <MaryJo> SA: Step 4 now has 3 steps and has the most change.
14:10:36 <MaryJo> SA: Step 5 has only been changed in the area of the aggregated score section.
14:10:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:10:58 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20140617#step4
14:11:03 <MaryJo> topic: Step 4 discussion
14:12:11 <MaryJo> SA: First sub-step 4.a is 'Check all initial web pages'.
14:12:43 <MaryJo> SA: The previous sub-sections in step 4 were moved under 4.a.
14:13:07 <MaryJo> SA: Step 4.b has been largely unchanged (used to be 4.d)
14:13:30 <MaryJo> SA: Step 4.c (used to be 4.e) is also largely unchanged.
14:13:39 <alistair> q+
14:13:50 <MaryJo> SA: Step 4.a is where review should be focused.
14:14:49 <alistair> Note on alternate versions intended to be conforming alternate versions.  Each alternate version of a web page included in the sample which is intended to be used as conforming alternate version of a web  need to be included in the sample.
14:15:31 <MaryJo> Alistair: Supports changes to 4.a. The above alternative note is suggested regarding alternate versions.
14:15:57 <Vivienne> q+
14:16:07 <alistair> q-
14:16:07 <Kathy> q+
14:16:11 <richard> q+
14:16:20 <Vivienne> zakim, ack me
14:16:20 <Zakim> unmuting Vivienne
14:16:22 <Zakim> I see Kathy, richard on the speaker queue
14:16:29 <shadi> ack viv
14:16:53 <MaryJo> Vivienne: +1 on the updates.
14:17:21 <MaryJo> SA: None of the content was removed from previous versions, just reorganized into this section.
14:17:57 <Vivienne> zakim, mute me
14:17:57 <Zakim> Vivienne should now be muted
14:18:48 <Kathy> ack me
14:18:54 <shadi> ack kathy
14:18:59 <MaryJo> Vivienne: Should we add a comment or notes earlier in the document about additional guidance available in later sections?
14:19:01 <Detlev> q+
14:19:28 <MaryJo> Kathy: Suggest adding a note that 4.a and 4.b can be done together - don't have to be done sequentially.
14:20:14 <Kathy> zakim, mute me
14:20:14 <Zakim> Kathy_Wahlbin should now be muted
14:20:17 <MaryJo> SA: This is true of other steps too, like 2 & 3.  Maybe we can make a note in earlier sections that this is the case.
14:20:18 <shadi> ack rich
14:21:03 <Detlev> ack me
14:21:05 <shadi> ack det
14:21:13 <MaryJo> Richard: +1 on the updates. Would prefer to leave it as it is right now.
14:21:53 <MaryJo> Detlev: Non-interference of Step 4.a really belongs with the conformance information earlier in the document.
14:22:52 <MaryJo> SA: Perhaps in numbered list under step 4 we can put a note or add something saying which points are explained further below.
14:24:22 <MaryJo> Detlev: The heading used for 'Note on...' doesn't stand out since it appears after another note. Suggest removing words 'Note on'.
14:24:49 <Vivienne> q+
14:25:26 <Vivienne> zakim, ack me
14:25:26 <Zakim> unmuting Vivienne
14:25:27 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
14:25:31 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
14:25:31 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
14:25:55 <shadi> [[During this step the evaluator audits (detailed evaluation of) all of the web pages and web page states]]
14:25:57 <MaryJo> Detlev: Need to fix the grammar in the sentence posted by Shadi above.
14:25:58 <Tim> Tim has joined #eval
14:26:07 <shadi> ack viv
14:26:49 <MaryJo> Vivienne: Conforming alternate versions - The conforming alternate version technique is being discussed by the WCAG working group.
14:27:06 <MaryJo> Detlev: It isn't the same context as this.
14:27:19 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20140617#alternate-versions
14:27:23 <Vivienne> zakim, mute me
14:27:23 <Zakim> Vivienne should now be muted
14:29:02 <shadi> [[The WCAG 2.0 definition for conforming alternate version defines specific requirements for alternate versions to qualify as conforming]]
14:29:02 <MaryJo> Detlev: The discussion has been about the technique of providing an alternative version in a specific context. If someone is given an alternative version, it needs to be checked for accessibility.
14:29:14 <MaryJo> Detlev: We don't say anything about that specifically.
14:29:15 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
14:29:38 <shadi> s/Detlev/Alistair
14:29:42 <Detlev> q+
14:31:04 <shadi> ack detlev
14:31:06 <Detlev> ack me
14:31:06 <MaryJo> Detlev: An alternative version needs to be proven it is conforming.  We need to include the alternative version in the sample to prove it is conforming.
14:31:21 <Detlev> Behavior using different settings, preferences, devices, and interaction parameters.
14:33:16 <MaryJo> Detlev: Need to cover somewhere as part of describing/defining determining the screen size, etc. that will be tested.
14:34:30 <MaryJo> SA: Shadi will try to take a pass at editing the inclusion of conforming alternative.
14:35:05 <Mike_Elledge> +1
14:35:14 <Vivienne> +1
14:35:20 <EricVelleman> +1
14:35:21 <Tim> +1
14:35:22 <Detlev> fine
14:35:22 <richard> +1
14:36:17 <shadi> [[This includes all components of the web page or web page state without activating any functions, entering any data, or otherwise initiating a process]]
14:37:45 <MaryJo> SA: Clarifying this that you are testing the initial state of the page.
14:37:58 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20140617#responsive
14:38:01 <Vivienne> I would really like something in there on this Alistair
14:38:15 <Kathy> ack me
14:39:31 <Vivienne> okay, I'm fine with that
14:39:57 <MaryJo> SA: The baseline does take into account that different resolutions are included in the web page states.
14:40:28 <MaryJo> Kathy: If there is responsive design, you've got to check the content in those different resolution states.
14:40:55 <shadi> [[Examples of web page states are the individual pages of a multi-part online form that are dynamically generated depending on users input. These individual states may not have unique URIs and may need to be identified by describing the settings, input, and actions required to generate them.]]
14:41:19 <MaryJo> SA: Should mention something about responsive design and possibly add a link to the responsive design section.
14:41:45 <MaryJo> Kathy: Pixel density, resolution states, and orientation all should figure into what you need to test.
14:42:43 <Vivienne> +1
14:42:47 <Sarah_Swierenga> +1
14:42:48 <Mike_Elledge> +1
14:42:49 <Detlev> yes!
14:42:54 <MaryJo> SA: Got agreement that this change is left up to the editor.
14:42:55 <Tim> +1
14:42:59 <Kathy> +1
14:43:04 <Kathy> zakim, mute me
14:43:04 <Zakim> Kathy_Wahlbin should now be muted
14:43:12 <EricVelleman> yes, taking notes as well
14:43:40 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20140617v2
14:43:58 <Detlev> zakim, mute me
14:43:58 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
14:44:59 <MaryJo> topic: Merging some of the steps in 3 to be condensed to Steps 3.a, 3.b, and 3.c.
14:45:06 <alistair> q+
14:45:08 <Vivienne> q+
14:45:17 <shadi> ack ali
14:45:58 <MaryJo> Alistair: +1 for condensing. Didn't care for 'generated' in the title.
14:46:10 <Vivienne> zakim, ack me
14:46:10 <Zakim> unmuting Vivienne
14:46:11 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
14:46:12 <shadi> ack viv
14:46:52 <MaryJo> Vivienne: Prefers the original, non-merged version as it seems clearer.
14:47:08 <richard> I like the new version, it is easier to read and follow
14:47:18 <Vivienne> zakim, mute me
14:47:18 <Zakim> Vivienne should now be muted
14:47:56 <MaryJo> Eric: Likes the expanded version.
14:48:23 <alistair> q+
14:48:26 <MaryJo> Eric: It draws more attention to the steps you really have to take.
14:48:35 <Detlev> prefer condensed
14:48:45 <shadi> ack ali
14:49:05 <alistair> q-
14:49:09 <MaryJo> Alistair: We can put the document out with the longer version and we can always change later.
14:49:15 <Tim> no strong feelings one way or other
14:50:01 <Sarah_Swierenga> I know. still trying to decide
14:50:07 <Mike_Elledge> I don't remember the long version.  :^)
14:50:17 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20140617
14:50:25 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20140617v2
14:51:06 <Kathy> v2 is better
14:51:08 <Detlev> Condensed by all means
14:51:30 <Sarah_Swierenga> the longer version looks scarier
14:52:04 <Kathy> ack me
14:52:33 <Kathy> zakim, mute me
14:52:33 <Zakim> Kathy_Wahlbin should now be muted
14:52:34 <MaryJo> Kathy: The condensed version is clearer, less daunting, and explains the process in an easier way to follow.
14:52:35 <Detlev> ack me
14:53:32 <MaryJo> Detlev: Agree it looks easier to do, so prefers the shorter version.
14:53:52 <Mike_Elledge> Prefer shorter version too
14:54:04 <alistair> go with the short one then
14:54:23 <Vivienne> zakim, ack me
14:54:23 <Zakim> unmuting Vivienne
14:54:24 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
14:54:25 <Vivienne> q+
14:54:33 <MaryJo> SA: Major restructuring will likely cause the WCAG working group to want to re-review those sections.
14:56:11 <Detlev> Iq+
14:56:14 <Detlev> q+
14:56:20 <MaryJo> SA: The logic didn't seem to work in the previous (longer) version of step 3 where there was some back-and-forth between the steps. Condensed, the note after the list becomes easier to notice.
14:56:32 <shadi> ack viv
14:56:49 <Detlev> ack me
14:56:52 <MaryJo> Vivienne: Though the longer version is preferred, would support going with the condensed version.
14:56:52 <Vivienne> zakim, mute me
14:56:52 <Zakim> Vivienne should now be muted
14:56:55 <shadi> ack det
14:57:42 <MaryJo> Detlev: Don't really need a perfect match between steps 2 and 3. The shorter 3 is better because it doesn't repeat some of the information from step 2.
14:59:42 <MaryJo> Eric: Likes the short version.  It makes it clear between the structured and random samples.
15:00:11 <MaryJo> SA: Editors will work on an improved title.
15:00:12 <Vivienne> +1
15:00:17 <Kathy> +1
15:00:18 <alistair> +1
15:00:18 <richard> +1
15:00:20 <Sarah_Swierenga> +1
15:00:21 <Mike_Elledge> +1
15:00:23 <Tim> +1
15:00:23 <Detlev> +1
15:00:38 <MaryJo> topic: Next steps
15:00:45 <shadi> www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20140617v2
15:00:58 <Vivienne> there's a lot of background noise
15:01:41 <MaryJo> SA: Need agreement that the V2 of the draft is brought to the WCAG working group for review next week.  Sent out Monday or Tuesday to get approval for publication as the final publication Note.
15:01:50 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
15:01:50 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:02:02 <Vivienne> +1
15:02:04 <Sarah_Swierenga> +1
15:02:05 <Detlev> 1+
15:02:06 <alistair> +1
15:02:08 <EricVelleman> +1
15:02:08 <Kathy> +1
15:02:09 <richard> Yes please seek approval
15:02:10 <Mike_Elledge> +1
15:02:12 <Tim> +1
15:03:36 <Vivienne> can we have a virtual glass of champagne then?
15:03:40 <MaryJo> SA: May not need a meeting next week, unless further comments received. WCAG working group will likely need a week to review. Next week will be a tentative meeting, but the first week of July we'll meet to handle comments.
15:04:03 <Vivienne> zakim, ack me
15:04:03 <Zakim> unmuting Vivienne
15:04:04 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:04:06 <Zakim> -Kathy_Wahlbin
15:04:06 <Mike_Elledge> Well done, everyone!
15:04:08 <Zakim> -Sarah_Swierenga
15:04:09 <Zakim> -alistair
15:04:09 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
15:04:10 <Zakim> -Detlev
15:04:11 <Zakim> -Shadi
15:04:12 <Zakim> -Mary_Jo_Mueller
15:04:14 <Zakim> -Mike_Elledge
15:04:16 <Zakim> -EricVelleman
15:04:17 <MaryJo> zakim, bye
15:04:17 <Zakim> Zakim has left #eval
15:04:17 <Zakim> -Vivienne
15:04:17 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Shadi, Vivienne, Detlev, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Kathy_Wahlbin, Mike_Elledge, Sarah_Swierenga, EricVelleman, alistair, [IPcaller], Tim_Boland
15:04:21 <Sarah_Swierenga> thanks, everyone!
15:04:26 <MaryJo> rrsagent, make minutes
15:04:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-eval-minutes.html MaryJo
15:04:43 <shadi> thanks for minuting maryjo!
15:04:55 <shadi> will wrap-up and send out the minutes
15:16:35 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
15:16:36 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:16:39 <EricVelleman> EricVelleman has left #eval
15:16:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:16:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-eval-minutes.html trackbot
15:16:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:16:44 <RRSAgent> I see no action items