16:54:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:54:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/05/12-aria-irc
16:54:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
16:54:12 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:54:14 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:54:14 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
16:54:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
16:54:15 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:54:15 <trackbot> Date: 12 May 2014
16:54:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
16:54:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
16:54:55 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has now started
16:55:02 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:56:47 <jgunder> jgunder has joined #aria
16:59:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> the agenda is here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014May/0045.html
16:59:56 <Zakim> +??P15
17:00:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, P15 is Janina
17:00:20 <Zakim> sorry, richardschwerdtfeger, I do not recognize a party named 'P15'
17:00:23 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
17:00:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, ??P15
17:00:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, ?P15 is Janina
17:00:30 <Zakim> sorry, richardschwerdtfeger, I do not recognize a party named '?P15'
17:00:35 <janina> zakim, ??P15 is me
17:00:35 <Zakim> +janina; got it
17:00:46 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
17:00:56 <Zakim> + +1.603.882.aaaa
17:01:21 <joanie> Zakim, I am aaaa
17:01:21 <Zakim> +joanie; got it
17:02:10 <Zakim> +??P18
17:02:20 <janina> zakim, aaaa is Joanie
17:02:20 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
17:02:24 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
17:02:48 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014May/0045.html
17:02:54 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson
17:02:55 <Zakim> + +49.322.110.8.aabb
17:03:20 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
17:03:23 <Zakim> +[Apple]
17:03:28 <MichaelC> zakim, aabb is Stefan_Schnabel
17:03:28 <Zakim> +Stefan_Schnabel; got it
17:03:32 <jcraig> Zakim, Apple has jcraig
17:03:32 <Zakim> +jcraig; got it
17:05:26 <Zakim> +Sailesh_Panchang
17:05:34 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
17:05:42 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:05:50 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
17:06:15 <MichaelC> topic: WAI-ARIA 1.1 Heartbeat Draft
17:06:22 <MichaelC> rs: how are we to do a heartbeat publication?
17:06:23 <MichaelC> ack me
17:06:31 <MichaelC> jc: in addition to IndieuI?
17:06:36 <MichaelC> js: yes we should
17:06:47 <MichaelC> jc: been focusing on IndieUI, not a lot done on ARIA
17:07:35 <andrewlarkin> andrewlarkin has joined #aria
17:07:44 <MichaelC> mc: UAIG is more ready for publication
17:07:47 <MichaelC> FPWD under its new name
17:07:48 <Zakim> + +1.215.286.aacc
17:08:01 <MichaelC> ARIA heartbeat either later or at same time
17:08:23 <MichaelC> js: would be good to exercise the new process with GitHub
17:08:38 <MichaelC> rs: status on IndieUI?
17:08:50 <MichaelC> jc: User Context pretty much ready for FPWD, about a week to ready for Events
17:09:07 <MichaelC> js: planning a CfC on that this week
17:09:31 <MichaelC> rs: so can we publish ARIA at end of month?
17:09:33 <MichaelC> q+
17:09:42 <MichaelC> jc: sure, we could
17:09:45 <MichaelC> lots of formatting changes
17:09:54 <MichaelC> though nothing to prevent publication
17:10:05 <Birkir> Birkir has joined #aria
17:10:13 <Zakim> -joanie
17:10:39 <Zakim> +joanie
17:10:45 <MichaelC> mc: publishing moratorium 6 - 11 June 2014
17:10:57 <MichaelC> otherwise we can target Tue / Thur with a few days advance notice
17:11:05 <MichaelC> rs: so end of May?
17:11:07 <Zakim> +??P6
17:11:18 <MichaelC> mc: ok for me
17:11:43 <MichaelC> jc: what are you for in it?
17:11:53 <MichaelC> rs: e.g., role=none
17:12:09 <MichaelC> jc: have mostly put in editorial changes
17:12:15 <MichaelC> but could throw in some more stuff by end of month
17:12:42 <jcraig> s/are you for in it?/are you looking for in it?/
17:12:52 <MichaelC> mc: substantive edits need time for group review
17:13:00 <LisaSeeman> LisaSeeman has joined #aria
17:13:02 <MichaelC> plan for that in timeline, or defer them to next heartbeat
17:14:40 <MichaelC> mc: June 5 last pub day before moratorium, need doc ready by June 2
17:14:47 <MichaelC> (June 29 for UAIG FPWD)
17:15:05 <MichaelC> need at least a week review time, so edits done by May 26
17:15:09 <MichaelC> s/June 29/May 29/
17:15:15 <MichaelC> so two weeks from today
17:15:37 <MichaelC> jc: some edits, @@
17:15:44 <MichaelC> some would be good to get in, others can wait
17:15:51 <MichaelC> think IndieUI is focus for this week
17:16:02 <MichaelC> rs: also setsize
17:16:08 <MichaelC> jc: that one is just editorial I think
17:16:23 <MichaelC> rs: can pass on table for now
17:16:28 <jcraig> rs: posinset and setsize on tabs ACTION-1352
17:16:32 <jcraig> action-1352?
17:16:32 <trackbot> action-1352 -- James Craig to Patch issue-576: add aria-posinset, and aria-setsize to tab role -- due 2014-01-31 -- OPEN
17:16:32 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1352
17:16:37 <MichaelC> role=none and action-1352 priorities
17:16:57 <MichaelC> hint?
17:17:02 <MichaelC> jc: not critical
17:17:49 <MichaelC> none is a bigger edit than it seems
17:19:01 <MichaelC> ack me
17:19:20 <jgunder> q+
17:20:53 <MichaelC> jc: would like to migrate issues to bugzilla so can process
17:21:05 <MichaelC> mc: we already have in theory for public comments, just haven´t been comments yet
17:21:14 <MichaelC> haven´t decided what to do for tracker
17:22:03 <MichaelC> jc: action prioritization would be easier
17:22:08 <MichaelC> need some components
17:22:35 <MichaelC> mc: didn´t realize that, send me what you need set up
17:23:27 <MichaelC> ss: can use role=none yet?
17:23:34 <MichaelC> rs: need UA implementation first
17:23:40 <MichaelC> jn: does IE ??
17:23:48 <MichaelC> cs: IE takes first role
17:24:15 <MichaelC> jn: IE won´t backport right
17:24:26 <MichaelC> s/backport right/backport, right?/
17:25:01 <MichaelC> jc: @@
17:25:06 <MichaelC> cs: so role cascade is high priority feature
17:25:13 <MichaelC> jc: yes
17:25:25 <MichaelC> starting to do stuff that need that
17:25:44 <MichaelC> cs: will pass that along
17:25:56 <MichaelC> didn´t know it was a priority, may surprise IE team
17:26:09 <MichaelC> jc: priority because other browsers calculate
17:26:16 <MichaelC> cs: didn´t know was used in the wild
17:26:37 <MichaelC> jc: not yet but we set up for that in 1.0 and expect to use soon
17:26:54 <jcraig> role="foo link"
17:27:36 <jcraig> role="specialbutton button"
17:27:37 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P6 is Lisa_Seeman
17:27:37 <Zakim> +Lisa_Seeman; got it
17:28:24 <MichaelC> ls: there was a proposal to allow roles to concurrently hold multiple roles
17:28:36 <MichaelC> jc: this is just about supporting the first recognized role
17:28:45 <MichaelC> cs: multiple inheritance propose patterns in ARIA 2
17:29:45 <MichaelC> topic: Issue 587 Request to have aria-selected on more roles and also to have
17:29:45 <MichaelC>  an aria-active state
17:29:46 <jcraig> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/complete#host_general_role
17:29:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/587
17:29:50 <MichaelC> issue-587?
17:29:50 <trackbot> issue-587 -- Consider allowing the aria-selected state on any focusable element, or add a new attr like aria-active or aria-current -- open
17:29:50 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/587
17:30:02 <jcraig> The first name literal of a non-abstract WAI-ARIA role in the list of tokens in the role attribute defines the role according to which the user agent MUST process the element. User Agent processing for roles is defined in the WAI-ARIA User Agent Implementation Guide [ARIA-IMPLEMENTATION].
17:30:43 <MichaelC> rs: issue is whether to allow aria-selected on any focusable element
17:30:53 <MichaelC> have determined can´t do on radio button, will need to be sure to exclude
17:31:03 <jcraig> q+ to mention my comment listed in the issue
17:31:15 <MichaelC> on tabs, is there active or selected?
17:31:24 <MichaelC> cs: there is focused, selected
17:31:27 <MichaelC> what is active?
17:32:00 <MichaelC> rs: e.g., in tablist with active tab, and you go into panel
17:32:24 <MichaelC> jc: applies e.g., to page you´re currently on
17:32:44 <MichaelC> cs: don´t have now, will suggest it
17:32:44 <jcraig> q?
17:32:56 <MichaelC> concerned ¨active¨ will be confused with CSS pseudoclass
17:32:58 <jcraig> +1 to "current"
17:33:05 <MichaelC> maybe ¨current¨
17:33:57 <jcraig> "Current thread is suggesting aria-current over aria-active. James Craig, 24 Apr 2014, 08:00:44"
17:33:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:34:00 <LisaSeeman> Q+
17:34:04 <MichaelC> ack jg
17:34:12 <jcraig> FWIW, I'm worried about overloading "selected" which currently implies user-selectability to mean something else on readonly or static interface elements like links. The term "selected" is already misused or overused. It's commonly confused with other similar terms like focused, activated, etc. ARIA 1.0 at least uses aria-selected consistently. If we change that, I think we'd b introducing more confusion for authors.
17:34:13 <jcraig> There is also PFWG-ISSUE-504 to consider, where where we want to change the taxonomy so that aria-selected is NOT allowed on radio buttons to avoid author confusion. Radio buttons currently inherit aria-selected from the option role and inherit aria-checked from the checkbox role, so authors frequently use aria-selected="true" on radios when they intend to use aria-checked="true".
17:34:14 <jcraig> Despite my objections to using aria-selected on *any* focusable element, I think the idea of indicating which link points to the current page is sound, and am generally supportive of adding either a new attribute, or allowing aria-selected on more roles such as link.
17:34:14 <jcraig> James Craig, 20 Jun 2013, 17:27:37
17:34:20 <MichaelC> jg: current sounds good to me
17:34:26 <MichaelC> jc: ^
17:34:47 <MichaelC> ack jc
17:34:47 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention my comment listed in the issue
17:34:49 <jcraig> issue-504?
17:34:49 <trackbot> issue-504 -- radio shouldn't have aria-selected -- closed
17:34:49 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/504
17:36:05 <jcraig> action-1338
17:36:05 <trackbot> action-1338 -- James Craig to Patch issue-504, then assign to cooper for the taxonomy doc -- due 2014-01-30 -- OPEN
17:36:05 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1338
17:36:13 <MichaelC> rs: would like to remove aria-selected from radio; requires taxonomy change
17:36:15 <MichaelC> jc: we already resolved that
17:36:26 <MichaelC> jg: thought it was the visible tab panel is selected
17:36:36 <MichaelC> what if something is ¨current¨ but not visible? error?
17:36:51 <MichaelC> ls: tab panels work well with current semantics
17:36:56 <MichaelC> aria-hidden works well
17:37:22 <MichaelC> do we need to add semantics that require authors to know fine details?
17:37:33 <MichaelC> ack l
17:39:05 <MichaelC> jc: this is not so much for tab panels in spite of example above
17:39:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> “In either case, authors SHOULD ensure that a selected tab has its aria-selected attribute set to true, that inactive tab elements have their aria-selected attribute set to false, and that the currently selected tab provides a visual indication that it is selected. In the absence of an aria-selected attribute on the current tab, user agents SHOULD indicate to assistive technologies through the platform accessibility API that the currently focus[CUT]
17:39:07 <MichaelC> steps in a process
17:39:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> is selected."
17:39:25 <MichaelC> ls: aria-selected used now
17:39:52 <MichaelC> jc: right; have to be clear were we need this and where we don´t
17:39:56 <MichaelC> we don´t need it on tabs
17:39:57 <MichaelC> ls: ok
17:40:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#role_definitions
17:40:30 <MichaelC> rs: <brainstorms roles it might go on>
17:40:39 <MichaelC> jg: what would AT do?
17:41:12 <jcraig> https://www.yahoo.com
17:41:19 <jcraig> home, mail, news
17:41:38 <jcraig> <a href="/">Home</a>
17:41:50 <jcraig> <a href="/" aria-current="true">Home</a>
17:42:56 <MichaelC> jg: don´t need an attribute to know that
17:43:01 <MichaelC> jc: for regular HTML, true
17:43:04 <jcraig> <button role="link" aria-current="true">Home</button>
17:43:07 <andrewlarkin> +q
17:43:23 <MichaelC> zakim, aacc is Andrew_Larkin
17:43:23 <Zakim> +Andrew_Larkin; got it
17:43:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:43:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack andrewlarkin
17:44:01 <MichaelC> but for roles like above, needed
17:44:17 <MichaelC> al: this is important for apps
17:44:35 <MichaelC> link to same page and load additional content
17:44:38 <MichaelC> ack sa
17:44:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack Sailesh
17:44:54 <MichaelC> zakim, Sailesh is Billy_Gregory
17:44:54 <Zakim> +Billy_Gregory; got it
17:45:49 <MichaelC> bg: in a process, a CSS class indicates which step is current
17:45:56 <MichaelC> no accessible mechanism except off-screen text
17:46:28 <MichaelC> an ARIA attribute that applies to focusable and non-focusable elements would
17:46:31 <jgunder> q+
17:46:36 <MichaelC> zakim, Billy is Birkir_Gunnarsson
17:46:36 <Zakim> +Birkir_Gunnarsson; got it
17:47:04 <MichaelC> ls: ??
17:47:21 <MichaelC> bg: @@
17:47:29 <jcraig> s/this is important for apps/this is important for single-page web apps, or anything using frameworks like backbone where all links link to the same page but load specific content that represent a single "page"/
17:47:39 <MichaelC> AT read label of focusable elements, but not all elements
17:48:17 <MichaelC> jc: whether text explications get read can depend on situations
17:48:24 <MichaelC> this indicator would be in addition to label
17:48:25 <MichaelC> bg: yes
17:48:32 <jcraig> <ul>
17:48:36 <MichaelC> rs: issues around aria-label anyways
17:48:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack Cynthia_Shelly
17:48:58 <LisaSeeman> q+
17:49:18 <MichaelC> cs: also have graphical indicators of current step
17:49:25 <andrewlarkin> +q
17:49:29 <MichaelC> don´t want users to have to jump to the image to find it out
17:49:38 <MichaelC> having the property would help out
17:49:51 <MichaelC> might modify focus order etc. in response
17:49:51 <jcraig> <ul>
17:49:52 <jcraig> <li>Step 1: Login</li>
17:49:53 <jcraig> <li aria-current="true">Step 2: Add Payment Information</li>
17:49:54 <jcraig> <li>Step 3: Profit</li>
17:49:55 <jcraig> </ul>
17:50:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jgunder
17:50:03 <jamesn> we have something we call a train for this http://www.oracle.com/webfolder/ux/applications/fusiongps/patterns/content/guidedprocesses/singletask/nonsequentialhoriz/index.htm
17:50:03 <jcraig> q+
17:50:05 <MichaelC> jg: what is the problem we´re solving?
17:50:12 <MichaelC> alternative to title?
17:50:36 <MichaelC> @@
17:50:45 <MichaelC> rs: when you´re in a context
17:50:51 <MichaelC> (not selecting for an operation)
17:51:06 <MichaelC> know where you are
17:51:24 <MichaelC> jg: so user wants to query what the current step is, regardless of where they´re on the page?
17:51:38 <MichaelC> or be told current location when landing on a widget?
17:51:43 <MichaelC> rs: yes
17:51:59 <MichaelC> current step, or current location within context
17:52:12 <MichaelC> it´s like a point of regard that you can refer to
17:52:21 <MichaelC> jc: though not user´s point of regard, which is like focus
17:52:26 <MichaelC> this is more of a progress indicator
17:52:34 <MichaelC> cs: this is indicated visually all the time
17:52:37 <MichaelC> jn: we call them trains
17:52:41 <MichaelC> cs: or breadcrumbs
17:52:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:52:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
17:52:54 <MichaelC> jc: e.g., steps 1 - 5, which of those are you on
17:53:24 <MichaelC> jg: what will user do with this?
17:53:32 <MichaelC> query for ¨what is current¨?
17:53:46 <MichaelC> AT announces to you at some point?
17:53:52 <MichaelC> cs: suggest a specialized interaction
17:54:02 <MichaelC> jg: how will user know?
17:54:04 <jcraig> q?
17:54:04 <MichaelC> cs: by reading documentation
17:54:07 <MichaelC> ack li
17:54:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack LisaSeeman
17:54:25 <jcraig> q+ to indicate wre
17:54:42 <MichaelC> ls: if aria-label isn´t working well, maybe we need to fix support for that rather than mint something new
17:54:54 <MichaelC> don´t make new semantics when there are existing semantics not supported well
17:55:06 <MichaelC> that´s a difficult path
17:55:19 <MichaelC> is this part of the breadcrumbs role?
17:55:23 <MichaelC> rs: it´s like it
17:55:25 <MichaelC> cs: more general
17:55:31 <MichaelC> ls: you´re still missing context
17:55:47 <jcraig> q+ to indicate we're not deciding UI, that would be determined by AT vendors. We're just defining the API. It could be that this would be annouced or not depending on verbosity
17:56:11 <MichaelC> being told what is current, there is still visually available information you´re not getting
17:56:36 <MichaelC> rs: it´s not @@
17:56:49 <MichaelC> jc: this is different from breadcrumbs, an overly used term
17:56:56 <MichaelC> this is more of a status of where you´re at in a process
17:57:00 <joanie> q+ To ask if this should be used in the context of a landmark
17:57:04 <MichaelC> though has more general uses
17:57:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack andrewlarkin
17:57:32 <jcraig> q+ to clarify the term "breadcrumb" means different things to deifferent people
17:57:44 <MichaelC> al: in one use case, a link to a page indicates it´s current
17:58:09 <MichaelC> in another, @@
17:58:21 <MichaelC> if aria-current goes on one element, how will users reference it?
17:58:40 <MichaelC> can there be a controls-like relationship to indicate what element is related?
17:58:48 <MichaelC> cs: <talked over>
17:59:07 <MichaelC> jc: one that changes over time?
17:59:37 <MichaelC> al: there can be steps that are visible but non-active ones displayed differently
18:00:03 <jcraig> ack me
18:00:03 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to indicate wre and to indicate we're not deciding UI, that would be determined by AT vendors. We're just defining the API. It could be that this would be
18:00:05 <MichaelC> jc: sounds like progress bar
18:00:06 <Zakim> ... annouced or not depending on verbosity and to clarify the term "breadcrumb" means different things to deifferent people
18:00:29 <Zakim> -Lisa_Seeman
18:01:08 <MichaelC> al: when user navigates to page, how can they figure out the current part from the rest?
18:01:14 <MichaelC> right now have to hide the content
18:01:20 <MichaelC> will current help?
18:01:56 <MichaelC> jc: back to user expectation - this is new, so there aren´t current expectations
18:02:09 <MichaelC> need AAPI to communicate it, and allow AT to solve the UI issue
18:03:19 <MichaelC> jg: sure, but we need to understand what happens when current not present
18:03:26 <MichaelC> right now I hear ¨AT users have to learn another command¨
18:03:35 <MichaelC> cs: there´s no way to do it at all now
18:03:44 <MichaelC> jg: can be put in the title, users are used to that
18:03:56 <MichaelC> cs: if I´m anywhere in page, hard to get back to the current step
18:04:22 <MichaelC> jc: there could be a user command, or AT could just announce, or some new interaction pattern
18:04:28 <MichaelC> right now, only get if crammed into label
18:04:30 <MichaelC> cs: or both
18:04:54 <MichaelC> passive and active retrieval
18:04:59 <jcraig> q?
18:05:05 <MichaelC> rs: more than step in process
18:05:15 <MichaelC> e.g., nav
18:05:32 <MichaelC> on a page, there could be multiple current items, within their respective contexts
18:05:33 <jamesn> +1 to allowing multiple
18:06:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
18:06:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack cynthia
18:06:19 <MichaelC> if an element has aria-context, how is it defined what is the scope of context within which it is current?
18:06:20 <jcraig> ack cy
18:06:26 <jcraig> ack jo
18:06:26 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to ask if this should be used in the context of a landmark
18:06:47 <MichaelC> jd: for AT, we need it easy for AT to find
18:06:59 <MichaelC> if it´s a state, state change events help
18:07:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:07:11 <MichaelC> if it´s limited to landmarks, limit to a kind of landmark so AT know where to look
18:07:28 <MichaelC> so I lean towards a state with some extras to help out ATs
18:07:37 <MichaelC> rs: so for nav, would want to know current item from nav?
18:07:42 <MichaelC> jd: from anywhere
18:08:11 <MichaelC> there´s a ¨where am I?¨ command - AT needs to know how to answer that question
18:08:11 <jcraig> joanie: wants notifications when this state changes
18:08:20 <MichaelC> rs: so a relationship on container to element?
18:08:22 <andrewlarkin> +q
18:08:24 <jcraig> q+
18:08:25 <MichaelC> q+
18:08:55 <MichaelC> q+ to suggest a property on a container pointing to ID of current descendant could define both scope and current item
18:09:01 <jcraig> q+ to say this is an API implementation detail, not to be defined in ARIA until the APIs support it
18:09:04 <MichaelC> jd: need a way to connect, and way to announce
18:09:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack andrewlarkin
18:09:16 <jgunder> q+
18:09:43 <MichaelC> al: relationship between what is currently active, and @@
18:09:46 <jcraig> ack me
18:09:46 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say this is an API implementation detail, not to be defined in ARIA until the APIs support it
18:09:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jcraig
18:10:19 <MichaelC> jc: maybe every element that is current should have a controls relationship to indicate scope
18:10:37 <MichaelC> re easier for AT to detect, that´s for the AAPI implementation to sort
18:10:49 <MichaelC> e.g., could support a notification event
18:11:02 <MichaelC> but shouldn´t be encumbent on authors
18:11:14 <joanie> +1 to jcraig's statement. I just want to know. I don't think it has to come from authors. :)
18:11:31 <MichaelC> cs: needs to be in the core mapping guide
18:11:40 <MichaelC> jc: yes, after AAPIs have a hook for it
18:12:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:12:12 <MichaelC> we have chicken / egg here, want to define in ARIA to push AAPIs, but not so useful until they support
18:12:17 <MichaelC> cs: we can put this egg out there
18:12:38 <MichaelC> can probably get in, and will get feedback
18:12:43 <MichaelC> ack me
18:12:44 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to suggest a property on a container pointing to ID of current descendant could define both scope and current item
18:12:51 <MichaelC> q+
18:12:53 <MichaelC> ack j
18:13:12 <joanie> q+ to ask if we will limit the type of containers this could be used on
18:13:17 <MichaelC> jg: will anything current have to have accessible name?
18:13:28 <joanie> q-
18:13:57 <joanie> I agree with jgunder in that we need to define what it applies to
18:14:05 <MichaelC> <confusion over tabpanel>
18:14:15 <MichaelC> cs: case in point, don´t want to confuse authors
18:14:55 <MichaelC> rs: e.g., nav list with toggle buttons
18:15:07 <MichaelC> if it´s a state, browsers have to do notification
18:15:13 <MichaelC> ack me
18:15:55 <MichaelC> mc: maybe a property on a container pointing to ID of current descendant could define both scope and current item
18:16:09 <MichaelC> jc: if we did that, would have to be sure to get the relationship direction right
18:16:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:16:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
18:16:42 <MichaelC> container references descendant, or current element references container
18:16:53 <MichaelC> need to think through the use cases to help decide which of those to do
18:17:17 <MichaelC> e.g., for a link, body could point to current link
18:17:39 <MichaelC> but if you´re on a train, wanting to know what current step is, container reference is preferred
18:17:53 <MichaelC> rs: having it on the current element itself allows attribute selector to style
18:18:12 <jcraig> rs: attribute selector [aria-current] { } would be nice to use.
18:18:58 <jcraig> mc: aria-currentfor="IDREF"
18:19:29 <MichaelC> rs: would using aria-controls overload it?
18:19:30 <MichaelC> mc: think so
18:20:05 <MichaelC> using on the current object referencing container for which it´s in scope allows styling, and provides boolean-like ¨I´m current¨
18:20:15 <MichaelC> jc: AAPI could calculate inverse relationship
18:21:31 <MichaelC> cs: would like to be able to use the DOM hierarchy
18:21:39 <MichaelC> let UA calculate for and by
18:21:50 <MichaelC> jc: would aria-currentfor=¨¨ work?
18:21:53 <MichaelC> cs: I guess
18:22:11 <jcraig> q+ to say that'd be vague
18:22:12 <MichaelC> think it´s better for UA to calculate because authors can mess that up
18:22:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
18:22:28 <jcraig> ack me
18:22:28 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say that'd be vague
18:22:39 <MichaelC> jc: could be ambiguous
18:23:11 <MichaelC> aria-current=true would tell browser is it´s current for
18:23:19 <MichaelC> but ambiguous what it´s current for, could be whole page, or some lower container, list, etc.
18:23:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:23:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
18:23:42 <MichaelC> q+
18:24:02 <MichaelC> could support currentfor (IDREF) plus currrent (boolean)
18:24:20 <MichaelC> don´t think a non-referencing attribute would be clear enough
18:24:24 <MichaelC> cs: would like to try
18:24:48 <MichaelC> we would define a set of roles that are presumed container of a current descendant
18:25:05 <MichaelC> jc: so need a ¨current computation algorithm¨
18:25:08 <MichaelC> rs: makes me nervous
18:25:19 <MichaelC> cs: asking authors to do too much makes me nervous
18:25:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
18:25:32 <MichaelC> rs: miscalulation could lead to big problems
18:25:51 <joanie> q+ To say if we limit it to landmarks it might work
18:26:02 <MichaelC> jc: not sure authors would understand an implicit relation to ancestors
18:26:14 <MichaelC> cs: maybe; we could draft it both was and test via authors
18:26:31 <joanie> q-
18:26:32 <MichaelC> jc: let´s think through these ideas
18:26:38 <MichaelC> ack me
18:26:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack MichaelC
18:27:18 <MichaelC> mc: think current and currentfor together confusing
18:27:29 <MichaelC> prefer currentfor=¨¨ if we want calculated relationship
18:27:39 <MichaelC> rs: do we agree to do something?
18:27:52 <MichaelC> cs: not sure the syntax is right, but agree need something
18:28:17 <MichaelC> rs: think about it this week, we´ll pick up next week
18:28:17 <MichaelC> cs: also annotations
18:28:19 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
18:28:20 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
18:28:21 <Zakim> -Birkir_Gunnarsson
18:28:21 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
18:28:22 <Zakim> -joanie
18:28:23 <Zakim> -[Apple]
18:28:24 <Zakim> -Stefan_Schnabel
18:28:24 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
18:28:26 <Zakim> -Andrew_Larkin
18:28:28 <Zakim> -janina
18:28:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, bye
18:28:32 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Rich_Schwerdtfeger, janina, +1.603.882.aaaa, joanie, Michael_Cooper, Jon_Gunderson, +49.322.110.8.aabb, Cynthia_Shelly,
18:28:32 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:28:35 <Zakim> ... Stefan_Schnabel, jcraig, Sailesh_Panchang, James_Nurthen, +1.215.286.aacc, Lisa_Seeman, Andrew_Larkin, Billy_Gregory, Birkir_Gunnarsson
18:28:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgen, make minutes
18:28:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:28:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/12-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
18:33:17 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
18:33:17 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:33:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/12-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:57:28 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
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