17:00:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:00:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-aria-irc
17:00:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
17:00:31 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
17:00:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
17:00:33 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM already started
17:00:34 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
17:00:34 <trackbot> Date: 28 April 2014
17:00:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
17:00:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
17:00:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:00:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
17:01:01 <Zakim> +??P12
17:01:27 <MichaelC> zakim, Ipcaller is Léonie_Watson
17:01:28 <Zakim> +Léonie_Watson; got it
17:01:44 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is LJWatson
17:01:44 <Zakim> sorry, LJWatson, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]'
17:02:01 <mattking> mattking has joined #aria
17:02:08 <Birkir> the 703 number is me, Birkir Gunnarsson
17:02:23 <MichaelC> ack me
17:03:10 <MichaelC> scribe: LJWatson
17:03:11 <LJWatson> scribe: Léonie Watson
17:03:16 <LJWatson> scribenick LJWatson
17:03:23 <Zakim> +Joanie_Diggs
17:03:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Apr/0156.html
17:03:35 <LJWatson> zakim, agenda?
17:03:35 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
17:03:49 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Apr/0156.html
17:04:01 <Zakim> +Matt_King
17:06:23 <Zakim> +[Apple]
17:06:47 <Zakim> +??P7
17:07:06 <MichaelC> zakim, Apple is James_Craig
17:07:06 <Zakim> +James_Craig; got it
17:07:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, ??P7 is Janina
17:07:07 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
17:07:10 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P7 is Janina_Sajka
17:07:10 <Zakim> I already had ??P7 as Janina, MichaelC
17:07:31 <LJWatson> Topic: UA implementation guide
17:08:13 <LJWatson> RS: Referencing core mappings from HTML and SVG. Linking to mappings is annoying for devs.
17:08:19 <MichaelC> Issues raised on HTML AAPI mapping during editors´ call:
17:08:20 <MichaelC> minimize duplication of effort
17:08:20 <MichaelC> HTML elements don´t all have a corresponding ARIA role
17:08:20 <MichaelC> implicit ARIA semantics important in some case, so need to still document
17:08:20 <MichaelC> won´t fill all HTML elements with ARIA in ARIA 1.1
17:08:20 <MichaelC> but it´s a goal to do that eventually
17:08:22 <MichaelC> valuable to single-source this, have to sort out how to do that between two WGs
17:08:25 <MichaelC> can we drop the HTML 4 column?
17:08:27 <MichaelC> and HTML 5 needs to be HTML 5.1
17:08:29 <MichaelC> want views of the document(s) that don´t force developers to follow links back and forth
17:09:10 <LJWatson> JC: In the guide you need to map to the platform specific role?
17:09:36 <LJWatson> RS: Yes. Want to pull in the mapping from the core spec, instead of link to it.
17:09:51 <LJWatson> JC: One spec with all ARIA and UA stuff combined?
17:10:25 <LJWatson> RS: Core implementation guide with ARIA, then HTML and SVG specific guides that would reference the core.
17:10:41 <LJWatson> JC: Why have multiple at all?
17:10:47 <LJWatson> RS: Multiple?
17:10:56 <LJWatson> JC: List all mappings in a single document.
17:11:18 <LJWatson> RS: We're trying not to have a huge spec, where we have to duplicate mappings for different platforms.
17:12:14 <LJWatson> RS: So if checkbox is defined for HTML, no need to duplicate the info for SVG.
17:12:23 <LJWatson> JC: There is no checkbox role in SVG.
17:12:45 <LJWatson> JC: So one map for all roles makes sense.
17:13:06 <LJWatson> RS: Yes, but peole want to pull that information out of the core into the platform specific docs, instead of linking back to the core.
17:13:49 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
17:14:02 <LJWatson> MK: We just want to maintain the information in a single place and reuse it?
17:14:05 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
17:14:05 <LJWatson> RS: Yes.
17:14:32 <LJWatson> JS: One quetion is whether we replicate the information. Also want to avoid repeating any aspect of the definition.
17:15:26 <LJWatson> JC: If we include all the guides in the specs, it would make the specs huge, but we'd also need to revisit them each time something changed.
17:15:42 <LJWatson> JC: Feels like anti-modularisation.
17:15:59 <LJWatson> RS: I see it has picking up info automatically from the core. Programmatically.
17:16:15 <LJWatson> JS: At time of publication, or at time someone reads it?
17:16:21 <LJWatson> MK: Specs have to be specs.
17:16:38 <LJWatson> RS: We'd need to programmatically reference the core spec.
17:17:12 <LJWatson> JC: Separate platform implementations should be separate.
17:17:24 <LJWatson> RS: People are saying they don't want to link out to separate docs.
17:18:04 <LJWatson> MK: We haven't had the opportunity to experience a modularised spec yet. Should wait to see if it's an issue or not.
17:18:29 <LJWatson> RS: I'm just responding to feedback on the call last Wednesday, via Cynthia.
17:18:35 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:18:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:19:24 <LJWatson> JS: It's less work to start creating modules with links. If it is a problem, we can address it then.
17:19:37 <LJWatson> RS: Happy to do that.
17:20:31 <jcraig> s/revisit them/revision them/
17:20:45 <LJWatson> RS: Means we'll have to have references to the table rows, which we don't currently have.
17:21:21 <LJWatson> MC: Yes. Haven't looked at source to see if present already.
17:22:17 <LJWatson> JC: If this is a request we think will benefit a lot of people we should think about it, but if it makes a lot of work and adds to the process, for the sake of comments from one source it probably isn't worth it.
17:22:35 <LJWatson> MC: We can raise this during a public review.
17:23:09 <LJWatson> JC: Don't think we need to publish language specific to ARIA mappings.
17:24:05 <LJWatson> RS: The suggestion was to pull in the references.
17:24:20 <LJWatson> JC: Yes, but that will still result in references in two places.
17:24:36 <LJWatson> RS: We'll leave it at using links for now.
17:25:37 <jcraig> agenda
17:25:41 <jcraig> agenda?
17:26:01 <LJWatson> RESOLUTION: We will reference the core API mapping specification using links.
17:27:03 <LJWatson> Topic: TF name
17:27:46 <LJWatson> JS: WAI-ARIA User Agent Implementation Guidelines: X module
17:28:00 <LJWatson> RS: Will need to run this by the WG.
17:28:35 <LJWatson> JS: May need to include a number also.
17:28:49 <LJWatson> RS: Is this something the co-ordination group wants?
17:28:59 <LJWatson> JS: Judy's concern is that WAI is part of the name.
17:29:11 <LJWatson> MC: It's the trademark issue.
17:29:51 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:29:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:30:05 <LJWatson> RS: We want to go with this?
17:30:18 <Birkir> It´s "WAI" long.
17:30:36 <LJWatson> JS: The current HTML and SVG docs aren't all ARIA. Perhaps the ARIA stuff should be split out and maintained here?
17:30:51 <LJWatson> RS: Don't think it should be broken up.
17:31:20 <LJWatson> JS: That changes things, because there is no set.
17:31:36 <LJWatson> MK: The HTML doc is all ARIA?
17:32:10 <LJWatson> RS: Example - if you have a node added/removed, that's an event regardless of ARIA or not.
17:32:29 <LJWatson> MK: So everything is related to accessibility, but not nescessarily ARIA?
17:33:10 <LJWatson> RS: Could use WAI User Agent Implementation Guide: X module?
17:33:56 <LJWatson> JS: Do we throw everything together, or separate it out? If we throw it together I withdraw my suggestion.
17:34:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:34:50 <LJWatson> MC: Want to have parallelism between our approach on different specs.
17:35:16 <LJWatson> RS: SVG is trying to recharter. Two shifting sands, so we need to be quick about this.
17:36:36 <LJWatson> MC: The WG could indicate in their charter that the TF/deliverable will be renamed, that should mean they're not held up.
17:37:29 <LJWatson> topic: Container role
17:37:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/638
17:38:16 <LJWatson> RS: For divs and spans, do we want a particular container role?
17:38:30 <LJWatson> MK: Is there an IA2 mapping?
17:38:57 <LJWatson> RS: Not sure if the MSAA equivalent would be desireable.
17:39:36 <jcraig> agenda?
17:39:38 <LJWatson> JC: Sometimes mapped to xgroup on the Mac, but that's not the same as the group role.
17:40:31 <jcraig> issue-638?
17:40:31 <trackbot> issue-638 -- Generic container roles for things like div/span… -- open
17:40:31 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/638
17:40:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Apr/0156.html
17:41:03 <jcraig> agenda+ ISSUE-638
17:41:16 <jcraig> zakim, take up agenda item 1
17:41:16 <Zakim> 'item\ 1' does not match any agenda item, jcraig
17:41:26 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 1
17:41:26 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ISSUE-638" taken up [from jcraig]
17:41:50 <jcraig> agenda+ ISSUE-606 grid role does not allow aria-setsize and aria-posinset
17:41:55 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:41:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:42:05 <jcraig> agenda+ Issue 427 Do we want to go for a Element.computedName and/or Element.computedRole?
17:42:20 <jcraig> agenda+ Issue 493 Support undefined without having to have an undefined token value
17:42:29 <LJWatson> MK: There are actions we wanted to complete on this before we go further.
17:42:38 <jcraig> agenda+ Issue-522 Name Computation Bullet 3 Confusion
17:42:55 <jcraig> agenda+ Issue-637: Introduce video and audio roles. Can we move this to ARIA 2.0 given the current plan to have role description on these?
17:43:12 <LJWatson> zakim, agenda?
17:43:12 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:43:13 <Zakim> 1. ISSUE-638 [from jcraig]
17:43:13 <Zakim> 2. ISSUE-606 grid role does not allow aria-setsize and aria-posinset [from jcraig]
17:43:13 <Zakim> 3. Issue 427 Do we want to go for a Element.computedName and/or Element.computedRole? [from jcraig]
17:43:13 <Zakim> 4. Issue 493 Support undefined without having to have an undefined token value [from jcraig]
17:43:13 <jcraig> agenda+ Issue-636: role description. Can we close this as I created a proposal based on working group discussion for this that was completed and closed and James Craig has action 1417 to add it to the spec.
17:43:14 <Zakim> 5. Issue-522 Name Computation Bullet 3 Confusion [from jcraig]
17:43:14 <Zakim> 6. Issue-637: Introduce video and audio roles. Can we move this to ARIA 2.0 given the current plan to have role description on these? [from jcraig]
17:44:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#implicit-aria-semantics
17:44:15 <LJWatson> MK: AT don't reveal it unless it has a label, so it's like role="none". Would having a label give it a different role?
17:45:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> presentation role provided no associated ‘title’ element, ‘desc’ element, ‘aria-label’ attribute, ‘aria-labelledby’ attribute, or ‘aria-describedby’ attribute; otherwise, group role
17:45:27 <LJWatson> MK: Conditional mapping?
17:45:30 <LJWatson> RS: Yes.
17:46:16 <LJWatson> JC: Shouldn't rely on having a description if there is no label.
17:46:43 <LJWatson> RS: if label is provided... use group.
17:47:21 <LJWatson> JC: Heuristics should be more simple. EG. Should be presentation unless it has a label.
17:48:09 <LJWatson> RS: If you ref something presentational with ARIA, that protects against that.
17:48:34 <LJWatson> JC: Referencing something presentational/unfocuable etc. would be an author error.
17:49:35 <LJWatson> JC: When mapping an element, shouldn't have to look at rest of DOM to find out if it's been referenced.
17:49:54 <LJWatson> JC: Would be a performance hit.
17:50:00 <LJWatson> RS: Yes.
17:50:06 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:50:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:50:28 <MichaelC> ack me
17:50:47 <jcraig> we can hear you rich
17:51:09 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:51:20 <jcraig> zalim, who is on the phone?
17:51:34 <jcraig> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:51:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sailesh_Panchang (muted), Stefan_Schnabel, Léonie_Watson, Michael_Cooper (muted), Joanie_Diggs, Matt_King, James_Craig, Janina
17:51:48 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:51:53 <LJWatson> MK: James did you suggest that elements without labels shouldn't have descriptions?
17:52:22 <Birkir> 703 is actually Birkir Gunnarsson, SAilesh used to be part of the group, we call in from the same office #
17:52:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, IPcaller is Rich
17:52:38 <Zakim> +Rich; got it
17:52:38 <MichaelC> zakim, IPcaller is Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:52:39 <Zakim> sorry, MichaelC, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'
17:53:06 <LJWatson> MK: Can see times when you'd want a description on a presentational element.
17:53:30 <LJWatson> JC: You wouldn't map an element with role="presentation" referenced by aria-describedby.
17:53:32 <jcraig> Zakim, James_Craig is [Apple]
17:53:32 <Zakim> +[Apple]; got it
17:53:39 <jcraig> Zakim, Apple has jcraig
17:53:39 <Zakim> +jcraig; got it
17:55:32 <LJWatson> RS: Looking at 5.1.2 of the UAIG.
17:55:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#include_elements
17:57:26 <LJWatson> RS: Need to be clear on this.
17:57:36 <LJWatson> MK: Remember these sections got complicated.
17:58:01 <LJWatson> s/5.1.2/5.12/
17:58:34 <LJWatson> MK: That list in 5.12 is irrelevant, if it's already excluded.
17:58:48 <LJWatson> RS: So need an exception in SVG for aria-labelledby?
17:59:04 <LJWatson> MK: Either need to make SVG consistent, or it breaks for everybody.
17:59:47 <LJWatson> RS: Do think if have label, or title/desc element, we allow it.
18:00:23 <LJWatson> MK: So role="presentation" would be put in tree, but what? Generic role?
18:01:12 <LJWatson> MK: So if new role, don't have to change stuff about presentation?
18:01:19 <LJWatson> RS: Have to make exception for aria-labelledby.
18:02:19 <LJWatson> RS: If role="none", have to have label for it to be mapped.
18:02:36 <LJWatson> MK: What about the lement being referred to by aria-labelledby?
18:03:16 <LJWatson> RS: If div with aria-labelledby on, then the element assumes a role of group - to be consistent with SVG.
18:03:34 <LJWatson> RS: If no label, the element has presentation role and is not in tree.
18:03:54 <LJWatson> MK: Talk was of a new generic role, not group.
18:04:24 <LJWatson> MK: In HTML wuldn't want div to be mapped to group.
18:04:34 <LJWatson> JC: No, group implies more semantics than div.#
18:04:48 <LJWatson> RS: Do we want a new role?
18:05:02 <LJWatson> JC: Yes, so we can have 1 to 1 mappings with every language.
18:05:37 <LJWatson> JC: Want to get something into 1.1 first.
18:06:00 <LJWatson> MK: Suggestion was that none be a synonym for presentation.
18:06:18 <LJWatson> JC: In SVG spec none means no mapping.
18:06:34 <LJWatson> MK: Did we put none as a presentation synonym?
18:06:37 <LJWatson> JC: We agreed to it.
18:07:03 <LJWatson> JC: All mapped to none are considered not rendered.
18:07:18 <LJWatson> JC: Things like cursor etc.
18:07:23 <LJWatson> RS: Yes.
18:07:28 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:07:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
18:07:49 <LJWatson> RS: These are host language semantics.
18:07:55 <LJWatson> JC: Yes.
18:09:02 <LJWatson> JC: For all listed as none, they're not rendered (with couple of excptions).
18:09:10 <LJWatson> RS: Think ARIA none would be fine for those.
18:09:20 <LJWatson> JC: No, these are not in the tree/rendered at all.
18:09:42 <LJWatson> RS: If role="none on img, there is no mapping.
18:10:16 <LJWatson> JC: These roles are not rendered at all, like script or style tags for example.
18:10:54 <LJWatson> RS: Not the same as SGML docs.
18:11:09 <LJWatson> MK: Are we talking SVG specific as part of 638?
18:11:14 <LJWatson> JC: This is more editorial.
18:11:54 <LJWatson> JC: We could map these to our new generic role by default. circle, rect etc. are represented in the acc tree.
18:12:41 <LJWatson> RS: Don't have to call it group.
18:12:51 <LJWatson> JC: Llike xgroup - generic container.
18:13:00 <LJWatson> JC: Perhaps role=generic ?
18:13:42 <LJWatson> RS: role=container
18:14:13 <LJWatson> JC: Tempting.
18:15:41 <LJWatson> JC: Difference between div and span.
18:16:00 <LJWatson> JC: Sometimes map span if different style properties.
18:16:28 <LJWatson> MK: Don't want an AT to communicate the role, just want the acc tree to have a rperesentation of the element.
18:16:46 <LJWatson> MG: The role itself carries 0 meaning to the end user, correct?
18:16:56 <LJWatson> JC: A non-specific meaning.
18:17:24 <LJWatson> MK: The aim is to make the element neutral like a div.
18:17:40 <LJWatson> JC: Right, no role description.
18:19:13 <LJWatson> LW: Would call div and g containers, but not span.
18:19:49 <LJWatson> JC: A span with display:block; is equivalent to a div.
18:20:58 <LJWatson> MK: role=generic feels like an abstract role, except it appear sin the tree.
18:21:16 <LJWatson> MK: Is that a problem? Authors can't use abstract roles.
18:21:21 <LJWatson> MC: Neither are UA.
18:21:45 <LJWatson> RS: We want to chew on this for a week?
18:24:56 <LJWatson> JC: Need to think about any security implications of what we're proposing.
18:25:26 <LJWatson> JC: Need to consider implimentation factors.
18:25:58 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:25:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
18:26:37 <jcraig> s/security implications/implementation considerations/
18:27:25 <LJWatson> RS: Next week someone from the MS Office team is joining us.
18:28:04 <jcraig> action-1424?
18:28:04 <trackbot> action-1424 -- James Craig to Propose spec text for generic/general/??? role (computed role of html:div, html:span, svg:g, etc) and clearly explain explicit usage of this role is not common, and clearly explain relationship to group and none role. -- due 2014-04-21 -- OPEN
18:28:05 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1424
18:29:43 <LJWatson> JC: Will come up with something for us to consider, other than role="none".
18:30:44 <Zakim> -Rich
18:30:48 <Zakim> -Sailesh_Panchang
18:30:53 <Zakim> -Joanie_Diggs
18:31:03 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
18:31:05 <Zakim> -Stefan_Schnabel
18:31:05 <Zakim> -Léonie_Watson
18:31:05 <Zakim> -[Apple]
18:31:06 <Zakim> -Matt_King
18:31:08 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has ended
18:31:08 <Zakim> Attendees were Cynthia_Shelly, Sailesh_Panchang, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Stefan_Schnabel, Michael_Cooper, Léonie_Watson, Joanie_Diggs, Matt_King, Janina, Rich, jcraig
18:31:14 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:31:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:32:02 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
18:32:02 <RRSAgent> I see no action items