IRC log of aria on 2014-04-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:00:29 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:00:29 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-aria-irc
17:00:31 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs member
17:00:31 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #aria
17:00:33 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
17:00:33 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM already started
17:00:34 [trackbot]
Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
17:00:34 [trackbot]
Date: 28 April 2014
17:00:39 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RRSAgent, make log public
17:00:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]
chair: Rich
17:00:47 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:00:59 [richardschwerdtfeger]
meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
17:01:01 [Zakim]
+??P12
17:01:27 [MichaelC]
zakim, Ipcaller is Léonie_Watson
17:01:28 [Zakim]
+Léonie_Watson; got it
17:01:44 [LJWatson]
zakim, [IPcaller] is LJWatson
17:01:44 [Zakim]
sorry, LJWatson, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]'
17:02:01 [mattking]
mattking has joined #aria
17:02:08 [Birkir]
the 703 number is me, Birkir Gunnarsson
17:02:23 [MichaelC]
ack me
17:03:10 [MichaelC]
scribe: LJWatson
17:03:11 [LJWatson]
scribe: Léonie Watson
17:03:16 [LJWatson]
scribenick LJWatson
17:03:23 [Zakim]
+Joanie_Diggs
17:03:34 [richardschwerdtfeger]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Apr/0156.html
17:03:35 [LJWatson]
zakim, agenda?
17:03:35 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
17:03:49 [MichaelC]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Apr/0156.html
17:04:01 [Zakim]
+Matt_King
17:06:23 [Zakim]
+[Apple]
17:06:47 [Zakim]
+??P7
17:07:06 [MichaelC]
zakim, Apple is James_Craig
17:07:06 [Zakim]
+James_Craig; got it
17:07:06 [richardschwerdtfeger]
zakim, ??P7 is Janina
17:07:07 [Zakim]
+Janina; got it
17:07:10 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P7 is Janina_Sajka
17:07:10 [Zakim]
I already had ??P7 as Janina, MichaelC
17:07:31 [LJWatson]
Topic: UA implementation guide
17:08:13 [LJWatson]
RS: Referencing core mappings from HTML and SVG. Linking to mappings is annoying for devs.
17:08:19 [MichaelC]
Issues raised on HTML AAPI mapping during editors´ call:
17:08:20 [MichaelC]
minimize duplication of effort
17:08:20 [MichaelC]
HTML elements don´t all have a corresponding ARIA role
17:08:20 [MichaelC]
implicit ARIA semantics important in some case, so need to still document
17:08:20 [MichaelC]
won´t fill all HTML elements with ARIA in ARIA 1.1
17:08:20 [MichaelC]
but it´s a goal to do that eventually
17:08:22 [MichaelC]
valuable to single-source this, have to sort out how to do that between two WGs
17:08:25 [MichaelC]
can we drop the HTML 4 column?
17:08:27 [MichaelC]
and HTML 5 needs to be HTML 5.1
17:08:29 [MichaelC]
want views of the document(s) that don´t force developers to follow links back and forth
17:09:10 [LJWatson]
JC: In the guide you need to map to the platform specific role?
17:09:36 [LJWatson]
RS: Yes. Want to pull in the mapping from the core spec, instead of link to it.
17:09:51 [LJWatson]
JC: One spec with all ARIA and UA stuff combined?
17:10:25 [LJWatson]
RS: Core implementation guide with ARIA, then HTML and SVG specific guides that would reference the core.
17:10:41 [LJWatson]
JC: Why have multiple at all?
17:10:47 [LJWatson]
RS: Multiple?
17:10:56 [LJWatson]
JC: List all mappings in a single document.
17:11:18 [LJWatson]
RS: We're trying not to have a huge spec, where we have to duplicate mappings for different platforms.
17:12:14 [LJWatson]
RS: So if checkbox is defined for HTML, no need to duplicate the info for SVG.
17:12:23 [LJWatson]
JC: There is no checkbox role in SVG.
17:12:45 [LJWatson]
JC: So one map for all roles makes sense.
17:13:06 [LJWatson]
RS: Yes, but peole want to pull that information out of the core into the platform specific docs, instead of linking back to the core.
17:13:49 [jcraig]
jcraig has joined #aria
17:14:02 [LJWatson]
MK: We just want to maintain the information in a single place and reuse it?
17:14:05 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly
17:14:05 [LJWatson]
RS: Yes.
17:14:32 [LJWatson]
JS: One quetion is whether we replicate the information. Also want to avoid repeating any aspect of the definition.
17:15:26 [LJWatson]
JC: If we include all the guides in the specs, it would make the specs huge, but we'd also need to revisit them each time something changed.
17:15:42 [LJWatson]
JC: Feels like anti-modularisation.
17:15:59 [LJWatson]
RS: I see it has picking up info automatically from the core. Programmatically.
17:16:15 [LJWatson]
JS: At time of publication, or at time someone reads it?
17:16:21 [LJWatson]
MK: Specs have to be specs.
17:16:38 [LJWatson]
RS: We'd need to programmatically reference the core spec.
17:17:12 [LJWatson]
JC: Separate platform implementations should be separate.
17:17:24 [LJWatson]
RS: People are saying they don't want to link out to separate docs.
17:18:04 [LJWatson]
MK: We haven't had the opportunity to experience a modularised spec yet. Should wait to see if it's an issue or not.
17:18:29 [LJWatson]
RS: I'm just responding to feedback on the call last Wednesday, via Cynthia.
17:18:35 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:18:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:19:24 [LJWatson]
JS: It's less work to start creating modules with links. If it is a problem, we can address it then.
17:19:37 [LJWatson]
RS: Happy to do that.
17:20:31 [jcraig]
s/revisit them/revision them/
17:20:45 [LJWatson]
RS: Means we'll have to have references to the table rows, which we don't currently have.
17:21:21 [LJWatson]
MC: Yes. Haven't looked at source to see if present already.
17:22:17 [LJWatson]
JC: If this is a request we think will benefit a lot of people we should think about it, but if it makes a lot of work and adds to the process, for the sake of comments from one source it probably isn't worth it.
17:22:35 [LJWatson]
MC: We can raise this during a public review.
17:23:09 [LJWatson]
JC: Don't think we need to publish language specific to ARIA mappings.
17:24:05 [LJWatson]
RS: The suggestion was to pull in the references.
17:24:20 [LJWatson]
JC: Yes, but that will still result in references in two places.
17:24:36 [LJWatson]
RS: We'll leave it at using links for now.
17:25:37 [jcraig]
agenda
17:25:41 [jcraig]
agenda?
17:26:01 [LJWatson]
RESOLUTION: We will reference the core API mapping specification using links.
17:27:03 [LJWatson]
Topic: TF name
17:27:46 [LJWatson]
JS: WAI-ARIA User Agent Implementation Guidelines: X module
17:28:00 [LJWatson]
RS: Will need to run this by the WG.
17:28:35 [LJWatson]
JS: May need to include a number also.
17:28:49 [LJWatson]
RS: Is this something the co-ordination group wants?
17:28:59 [LJWatson]
JS: Judy's concern is that WAI is part of the name.
17:29:11 [LJWatson]
MC: It's the trademark issue.
17:29:51 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:29:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:30:05 [LJWatson]
RS: We want to go with this?
17:30:18 [Birkir]
It´s "WAI" long.
17:30:36 [LJWatson]
JS: The current HTML and SVG docs aren't all ARIA. Perhaps the ARIA stuff should be split out and maintained here?
17:30:51 [LJWatson]
RS: Don't think it should be broken up.
17:31:20 [LJWatson]
JS: That changes things, because there is no set.
17:31:36 [LJWatson]
MK: The HTML doc is all ARIA?
17:32:10 [LJWatson]
RS: Example - if you have a node added/removed, that's an event regardless of ARIA or not.
17:32:29 [LJWatson]
MK: So everything is related to accessibility, but not nescessarily ARIA?
17:33:10 [LJWatson]
RS: Could use WAI User Agent Implementation Guide: X module?
17:33:56 [LJWatson]
JS: Do we throw everything together, or separate it out? If we throw it together I withdraw my suggestion.
17:34:27 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:34:50 [LJWatson]
MC: Want to have parallelism between our approach on different specs.
17:35:16 [LJWatson]
RS: SVG is trying to recharter. Two shifting sands, so we need to be quick about this.
17:36:36 [LJWatson]
MC: The WG could indicate in their charter that the TF/deliverable will be renamed, that should mean they're not held up.
17:37:29 [LJWatson]
topic: Container role
17:37:35 [richardschwerdtfeger]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/638
17:38:16 [LJWatson]
RS: For divs and spans, do we want a particular container role?
17:38:30 [LJWatson]
MK: Is there an IA2 mapping?
17:38:57 [LJWatson]
RS: Not sure if the MSAA equivalent would be desireable.
17:39:36 [jcraig]
agenda?
17:39:38 [LJWatson]
JC: Sometimes mapped to xgroup on the Mac, but that's not the same as the group role.
17:40:31 [jcraig]
issue-638?
17:40:31 [trackbot]
issue-638 -- Generic container roles for things like div/span… -- open
17:40:31 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/638
17:40:34 [richardschwerdtfeger]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Apr/0156.html
17:41:03 [jcraig]
agenda+ ISSUE-638
17:41:16 [jcraig]
zakim, take up agenda item 1
17:41:16 [Zakim]
'item\ 1' does not match any agenda item, jcraig
17:41:26 [jcraig]
zakim, take up item 1
17:41:26 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "ISSUE-638" taken up [from jcraig]
17:41:50 [jcraig]
agenda+ ISSUE-606 grid role does not allow aria-setsize and aria-posinset
17:41:55 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:41:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:42:05 [jcraig]
agenda+ Issue 427 Do we want to go for a Element.computedName and/or Element.computedRole?
17:42:20 [jcraig]
agenda+ Issue 493 Support undefined without having to have an undefined token value
17:42:29 [LJWatson]
MK: There are actions we wanted to complete on this before we go further.
17:42:38 [jcraig]
agenda+ Issue-522 Name Computation Bullet 3 Confusion
17:42:55 [jcraig]
agenda+ Issue-637: Introduce video and audio roles. Can we move this to ARIA 2.0 given the current plan to have role description on these?
17:43:12 [LJWatson]
zakim, agenda?
17:43:12 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:43:13 [Zakim]
1. ISSUE-638 [from jcraig]
17:43:13 [Zakim]
2. ISSUE-606 grid role does not allow aria-setsize and aria-posinset [from jcraig]
17:43:13 [Zakim]
3. Issue 427 Do we want to go for a Element.computedName and/or Element.computedRole? [from jcraig]
17:43:13 [Zakim]
4. Issue 493 Support undefined without having to have an undefined token value [from jcraig]
17:43:13 [jcraig]
agenda+ Issue-636: role description. Can we close this as I created a proposal based on working group discussion for this that was completed and closed and James Craig has action 1417 to add it to the spec.
17:43:14 [Zakim]
5. Issue-522 Name Computation Bullet 3 Confusion [from jcraig]
17:43:14 [Zakim]
6. Issue-637: Introduce video and audio roles. Can we move this to ARIA 2.0 given the current plan to have role description on these? [from jcraig]
17:44:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#implicit-aria-semantics
17:44:15 [LJWatson]
MK: AT don't reveal it unless it has a label, so it's like role="none". Would having a label give it a different role?
17:45:01 [richardschwerdtfeger]
presentation role provided no associated ‘title’ element, ‘desc’ element, ‘aria-label’ attribute, ‘aria-labelledby’ attribute, or ‘aria-describedby’ attribute; otherwise, group role
17:45:27 [LJWatson]
MK: Conditional mapping?
17:45:30 [LJWatson]
RS: Yes.
17:46:16 [LJWatson]
JC: Shouldn't rely on having a description if there is no label.
17:46:43 [LJWatson]
RS: if label is provided... use group.
17:47:21 [LJWatson]
JC: Heuristics should be more simple. EG. Should be presentation unless it has a label.
17:48:09 [LJWatson]
RS: If you ref something presentational with ARIA, that protects against that.
17:48:34 [LJWatson]
JC: Referencing something presentational/unfocuable etc. would be an author error.
17:49:35 [LJWatson]
JC: When mapping an element, shouldn't have to look at rest of DOM to find out if it's been referenced.
17:49:54 [LJWatson]
JC: Would be a performance hit.
17:50:00 [LJWatson]
RS: Yes.
17:50:06 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:50:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:50:28 [MichaelC]
ack me
17:50:47 [jcraig]
we can hear you rich
17:51:09 [Zakim]
-Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:51:20 [jcraig]
zalim, who is on the phone?
17:51:34 [jcraig]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:51:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sailesh_Panchang (muted), Stefan_Schnabel, Léonie_Watson, Michael_Cooper (muted), Joanie_Diggs, Matt_King, James_Craig, Janina
17:51:48 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:51:53 [LJWatson]
MK: James did you suggest that elements without labels shouldn't have descriptions?
17:52:22 [Birkir]
703 is actually Birkir Gunnarsson, SAilesh used to be part of the group, we call in from the same office #
17:52:38 [richardschwerdtfeger]
zakim, IPcaller is Rich
17:52:38 [Zakim]
+Rich; got it
17:52:38 [MichaelC]
zakim, IPcaller is Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:52:39 [Zakim]
sorry, MichaelC, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'
17:53:06 [LJWatson]
MK: Can see times when you'd want a description on a presentational element.
17:53:30 [LJWatson]
JC: You wouldn't map an element with role="presentation" referenced by aria-describedby.
17:53:32 [jcraig]
Zakim, James_Craig is [Apple]
17:53:32 [Zakim]
+[Apple]; got it
17:53:39 [jcraig]
Zakim, Apple has jcraig
17:53:39 [Zakim]
+jcraig; got it
17:55:32 [LJWatson]
RS: Looking at 5.1.2 of the UAIG.
17:55:37 [richardschwerdtfeger]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#include_elements
17:57:26 [LJWatson]
RS: Need to be clear on this.
17:57:36 [LJWatson]
MK: Remember these sections got complicated.
17:58:01 [LJWatson]
s/5.1.2/5.12/
17:58:34 [LJWatson]
MK: That list in 5.12 is irrelevant, if it's already excluded.
17:58:48 [LJWatson]
RS: So need an exception in SVG for aria-labelledby?
17:59:04 [LJWatson]
MK: Either need to make SVG consistent, or it breaks for everybody.
17:59:47 [LJWatson]
RS: Do think if have label, or title/desc element, we allow it.
18:00:23 [LJWatson]
MK: So role="presentation" would be put in tree, but what? Generic role?
18:01:12 [LJWatson]
MK: So if new role, don't have to change stuff about presentation?
18:01:19 [LJWatson]
RS: Have to make exception for aria-labelledby.
18:02:19 [LJWatson]
RS: If role="none", have to have label for it to be mapped.
18:02:36 [LJWatson]
MK: What about the lement being referred to by aria-labelledby?
18:03:16 [LJWatson]
RS: If div with aria-labelledby on, then the element assumes a role of group - to be consistent with SVG.
18:03:34 [LJWatson]
RS: If no label, the element has presentation role and is not in tree.
18:03:54 [LJWatson]
MK: Talk was of a new generic role, not group.
18:04:24 [LJWatson]
MK: In HTML wuldn't want div to be mapped to group.
18:04:34 [LJWatson]
JC: No, group implies more semantics than div.#
18:04:48 [LJWatson]
RS: Do we want a new role?
18:05:02 [LJWatson]
JC: Yes, so we can have 1 to 1 mappings with every language.
18:05:37 [LJWatson]
JC: Want to get something into 1.1 first.
18:06:00 [LJWatson]
MK: Suggestion was that none be a synonym for presentation.
18:06:18 [LJWatson]
JC: In SVG spec none means no mapping.
18:06:34 [LJWatson]
MK: Did we put none as a presentation synonym?
18:06:37 [LJWatson]
JC: We agreed to it.
18:07:03 [LJWatson]
JC: All mapped to none are considered not rendered.
18:07:18 [LJWatson]
JC: Things like cursor etc.
18:07:23 [LJWatson]
RS: Yes.
18:07:28 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:07:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
18:07:49 [LJWatson]
RS: These are host language semantics.
18:07:55 [LJWatson]
JC: Yes.
18:09:02 [LJWatson]
JC: For all listed as none, they're not rendered (with couple of excptions).
18:09:10 [LJWatson]
RS: Think ARIA none would be fine for those.
18:09:20 [LJWatson]
JC: No, these are not in the tree/rendered at all.
18:09:42 [LJWatson]
RS: If role="none on img, there is no mapping.
18:10:16 [LJWatson]
JC: These roles are not rendered at all, like script or style tags for example.
18:10:54 [LJWatson]
RS: Not the same as SGML docs.
18:11:09 [LJWatson]
MK: Are we talking SVG specific as part of 638?
18:11:14 [LJWatson]
JC: This is more editorial.
18:11:54 [LJWatson]
JC: We could map these to our new generic role by default. circle, rect etc. are represented in the acc tree.
18:12:41 [LJWatson]
RS: Don't have to call it group.
18:12:51 [LJWatson]
JC: Llike xgroup - generic container.
18:13:00 [LJWatson]
JC: Perhaps role=generic ?
18:13:42 [LJWatson]
RS: role=container
18:14:13 [LJWatson]
JC: Tempting.
18:15:41 [LJWatson]
JC: Difference between div and span.
18:16:00 [LJWatson]
JC: Sometimes map span if different style properties.
18:16:28 [LJWatson]
MK: Don't want an AT to communicate the role, just want the acc tree to have a rperesentation of the element.
18:16:46 [LJWatson]
MG: The role itself carries 0 meaning to the end user, correct?
18:16:56 [LJWatson]
JC: A non-specific meaning.
18:17:24 [LJWatson]
MK: The aim is to make the element neutral like a div.
18:17:40 [LJWatson]
JC: Right, no role description.
18:19:13 [LJWatson]
LW: Would call div and g containers, but not span.
18:19:49 [LJWatson]
JC: A span with display:block; is equivalent to a div.
18:20:58 [LJWatson]
MK: role=generic feels like an abstract role, except it appear sin the tree.
18:21:16 [LJWatson]
MK: Is that a problem? Authors can't use abstract roles.
18:21:21 [LJWatson]
MC: Neither are UA.
18:21:45 [LJWatson]
RS: We want to chew on this for a week?
18:24:56 [LJWatson]
JC: Need to think about any security implications of what we're proposing.
18:25:26 [LJWatson]
JC: Need to consider implimentation factors.
18:25:58 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:25:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
18:26:37 [jcraig]
s/security implications/implementation considerations/
18:27:25 [LJWatson]
RS: Next week someone from the MS Office team is joining us.
18:28:04 [jcraig]
action-1424?
18:28:04 [trackbot]
action-1424 -- James Craig to Propose spec text for generic/general/??? role (computed role of html:div, html:span, svg:g, etc) and clearly explain explicit usage of this role is not common, and clearly explain relationship to group and none role. -- due 2014-04-21 -- OPEN
18:28:05 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1424
18:29:43 [LJWatson]
JC: Will come up with something for us to consider, other than role="none".
18:30:44 [Zakim]
-Rich
18:30:48 [Zakim]
-Sailesh_Panchang
18:30:53 [Zakim]
-Joanie_Diggs
18:31:03 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
18:31:05 [Zakim]
-Stefan_Schnabel
18:31:05 [Zakim]
-Léonie_Watson
18:31:05 [Zakim]
-[Apple]
18:31:06 [Zakim]
-Matt_King
18:31:08 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has ended
18:31:08 [Zakim]
Attendees were Cynthia_Shelly, Sailesh_Panchang, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Stefan_Schnabel, Michael_Cooper, Léonie_Watson, Joanie_Diggs, Matt_King, Janina, Rich, jcraig
18:31:14 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:31:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/28-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:32:02 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, bye
18:32:02 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items