16:56:01 RRSAgent has joined #aria 16:56:01 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/07-aria-irc 16:56:03 RRSAgent, make logs member 16:56:03 Zakim has joined #aria 16:56:05 Zakim, this will be WAI_PF 16:56:05 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 16:56:06 Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference 16:56:06 Date: 07 April 2014 16:56:07 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Apr/0048.html 16:58:50 WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has now started 16:58:57 +??P13 16:59:03 zakim, ??P13 is Michael_Cooper 16:59:03 +Michael_Cooper; got it 17:00:06 clown has joined #aria 17:00:10 +??P0 17:00:11 clown has left #aria 17:00:38 zakim, ??P0 is Janina 17:00:38 +Janina; got it 17:01:12 +Bryan_Garaventa 17:01:58 +James_Nurthen 17:02:21 +[Apple] 17:02:26 jamesn has joined #aria 17:02:55 zakim, Apple is James_Craig 17:02:55 +James_Craig; got it 17:03:26 zakim, who is on the call? 17:03:27 On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Janina, Bryan_Garaventa, James_Nurthen, James_Craig 17:04:33 +Joanie_Diggs 17:04:35 clown has joined #aria 17:04:44 jcraig has joined #aria 17:05:13 +[GVoice] 17:05:21 zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer 17:05:21 +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it 17:05:28 zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer 17:05:29 ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer 17:05:45 Zakim, who is on the phone? 17:05:45 On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Janina, Bryan_Garaventa, James_Nurthen, James_Craig, Joanie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer 17:05:58 Zakim, James_Craig is Apple 17:05:58 +Apple; got it 17:06:00 +Matt_King 17:06:09 Zakim, Apple is [Apple] 17:06:09 +[Apple]; got it 17:06:16 Zakim, Apple has jcraig 17:06:16 +jcraig; got it 17:06:28 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Apr/0048.html 17:06:33 scribe: jcraig 17:06:41 TOPIC: UAIG Status 17:07:18 MC: No major news. Forming a Joing TF with @@@ Working Group. 17:07:38 s/@@@/SVG/ 17:07:51 q+ to ask if there is an editors' meeting this coming Wed 17:07:53 s/Joing/Joint 17:07:59 mattking has joined #aria 17:08:01 JS: Negotiating details with the two groups. 17:08:39 ack j 17:08:39 Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to ask if there is an editors' meeting this coming Wed 17:08:42 MC: Standing agenda item. More to report next week. 17:10:03 Stefan has joined #aria 17:11:30 +[SAP] 17:11:43 zakim, SAP is Stefan_Schnabel 17:11:43 +Stefan_Schnabel; got it 17:11:45 MC: Covers details about editor's meeting: Every other week 30 minutes at 10AM Pactific 17:12:21 +Cynthia_Shelly 17:13:04 topic: Issue 523 (searchbox/searchfield role) https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/523 17:13:17 issue-523? 17:13:17 issue-523 -- searchbox/searchfield role which is a subrole of textbox/textfield -- open 17:13:17 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/523 17:15:43 close issue-523 17:15:43 Closed issue-523. 17:16:25 topic: Issue 590 Caption Role: Do we need a label role or do we do something 17:16:25 different? https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/590 17:16:30 related ACTION-1342 to ISSUE-523 17:17:24 http://www.w3.org/2014/03/31-aria-minutes.html 17:20:09 JC: not an easy topic, pros and cons to all options 17:21:42 ack c 17:21:48 JC: suggest tabling for now. Rich and Steve are not here to discuss 17:22:16 CS: Would like @aria-labelfor and a label role for ease of reading. 17:22:50 scribe: MichaelC 17:22:57 JC: issues with generic label element 17:23:17 if we had a label role on a heading 17:23:21 might override heading role 17:23:49 so basically, couldn´t have an element with its own role also a label 17:24:04 MK: that´s why this is a big concern for me with labels 17:24:09 with landmarks can just wrap them 17:24:17 but that´s more awkward with label 17:24:44 how does AT expose? 17:25:03 JC: don´t confuse AT with AAPI 17:25:05 q+ 17:25:26 MK: not that, but multiple roles 17:26:00 JC: one pro to label role is a validation tool could flag an unreferenced label 17:26:40 MC: what if there are a lable role that existed, but was not required, as in, role=" 17:26:55 scribe: jcraig 17:27:03 s/role="/role="heading label"/ 17:27:27 MC: iow, labels don't have to use role="label" 17:28:31 MC: back to issue at hand. caption elements could be given label role if no better role used 17:29:15 Straw poll: who would like a label role of some sort? 17:29:16 cyns has joined #aria 17:29:18 MC: still have question of whether in absense of labelledby relationship, whether it labels its parent element 17:29:29 +1 17:29:32 +1 17:29:35 +1 17:29:53 ± 1 ;-() 17:30:03 Converse question: who thinks a label role is more trouble than it´s worth? 17:30:07 -1 17:30:10 -1 17:30:11 0 (sitting on the fence) 17:30:27 Depends on restrictions or limitations 17:31:14 q+ 17:31:18 ack me 17:31:21 ack j 17:31:40 I read modest support in favour of label role 17:32:42 JD: like explicit roles 17:32:50 JC: there´s a label role in ATK? 17:32:52 JD: yes 17:33:02 JC: is it generic? 17:33:06 s/ATK/GTK/ 17:33:32 JD: in GTK, static text and labels still have role of label 17:33:44 MK: is there always a relationship attribute? 17:34:14 JD: an object with role label has a pointer to what it applies to 17:34:22 MC: like label for? 17:35:05 JC: clarifies that ATK handles this better than GTK 17:35:12 -Joseph_Scheuhammer 17:35:59 +[GVoice] 17:36:09 zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer 17:36:09 +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it 17:36:21 zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer 17:36:21 ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer 17:36:52 JD: label relationship is author explicit, but may be achieved in a variety of ways 17:38:19 MC: Might need to require reverse relationship aria-labelfor from label role to element? 17:38:37 MK: what about having labelfor but not label role 17:39:10 CS: MS devs wanted to find all labels in document 17:39:12 q+ 17:39:39 CS: Would allow them to enforce coding standard on their own projects 17:40:08 ack j 17:40:36 MK: potentially you could have role=label, aria-labeledfor, or something referenced by aria-labelledby 17:40:51 JC: big issue here is it adds complexity to the processing rules 17:40:58 in good world, it´s simple 17:41:10 but what if there´s some circularity in authoring of these pieces 17:41:26 q+ to say that even if we have role=label is should never be an error if that label isn't actually being used 17:41:29 so these proposals have benefits but risks 17:42:36 MC: maybe we don´t want all of these options, just pick one 17:42:37 MK: yes 17:43:01 maybe try to look at UAIG from this perspective, and come back with proposal 17:43:47 JC: there are differences in the name calculation alogrithm between spec and UAIG 17:44:03 MC: only non-normative example 17:44:16 JS: a couple examples are different 17:44:31 @@ 17:44:39 ACTION: pull text computation section into ReSpec include for both Spec and UAIG 17:44:39 Error finding 'pull'. You can review and register nicknames at . 17:44:44 ack me 17:44:44 jamesn, you wanted to say that even if we have role=label is should never be an error if that label isn't actually being used 17:44:44 ack jamesn 17:44:53 ACTION: jcraig to pull text computation section into ReSpec include for both Spec and UAIG 17:44:53 Created ACTION-1421 - Pull text computation section into respec include for both spec and uaig [on James Craig - due 2014-04-14]. 17:45:06 JN: if we do adopt role=label, shouldn´t be required that authors use it 17:45:24 s/@@/As it stands, aria-label and aria-labelledby are used to create a "name" property for an accessible. They do not create an accessible of their own/ 17:45:37 and not an error to use label without reference 17:45:40 jc: why the latter part? 17:45:56 jn: dynamic updates is one use case 17:46:12 hard to update these references during update 17:46:55 jc: could it be a warning, not an error? 17:47:01 jn: people read warnings as errors 17:47:21 what extra benefit? 17:47:38 jc: there´s a meaningful difference in ATK between static text, and static text that is a label 17:47:51 would want to ensure correct use 17:48:04 q+ 17:48:16 jn: already hard for developers to label 17:48:24 introducing more possibilities makes it harder 17:49:03 mk: an error to have label for reference nonexistent? 17:49:12 jc, jn: sometimes in evaluators 17:49:37 MC: also discussing if label role labels its parent 17:49:45 q? 17:49:52 q? 17:49:52 MC: could have undesirable effects 17:50:03 ack me 17:50:08 q+ To say it's undesirable 17:50:21 q+ to point out the caption example means still putting in a pointer 17:50:40 q+ about defalt mappings for caption and figcaption 17:50:56 q? 17:51:11 jc: think it´s undesirable, it adds more automatic calculation of the a11y tree 17:51:18 which isn´t impossible, but it´s another thing 17:51:56 for instance, table element mapped to table role only if heuristically determined to be a data table 17:51:56 q+ to ask about mappings 17:52:10 having spec touch this gets complex, best left to implementations 17:52:41 rrsagent, make minutes 17:52:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/07-aria-minutes.html MichaelC 17:52:55 ack next 17:52:56 joanie, you wanted to say it's undesirable 17:53:18 issue-590: https://www.w3.org/2014/04/07-aria-minutes.html#item03 17:53:18 Notes added to issue-590 add caption role. 17:53:27 ack next 17:53:28 MichaelC, you wanted to point out the caption example means still putting in a pointer 17:53:54 JD: want to be able to expose unreferenced label text as static text, not label 17:54:18 JD: This would disallow this and force us to expose a potentially incorrect relationship' 17:54:25 q+ to Make a clarification about what Michael just said 17:54:32 ack mattk 17:54:32 mattking, you wanted to ask about mappings 17:54:57 MC: label not labeling its parent sounds desirable from what I hear 17:55:05 but doens´t address the caption thing 17:55:07 you could give caption role=label but still have to have a labeling reference 17:55:07 question on next topic: for caption and figcaption. same in html5? 17:55:15 not much of a gain from that perspective 17:55:45 s/question on next topic: for caption and figcaption. same in html5?/MK: question on next topic: for caption and figcaption. same in html5?/ 17:55:50 q+ to straw poll 17:56:14 MK: if you map caption to aria-label, is that problematic? 17:58:24 MK: If we have role="label" in ARIA 1.1, and we don't have @aria-labelfor 17:59:03 ack next 17:59:04 joanie, you wanted to Make a clarification about what Michael just said 17:59:08 MK: caption role would be unambiguous on table 17:59:38 JC: Q+ to clarify Matt's comment that indicates we'd want to create role that is specific to html:table 17:59:58 q+ to clarify Matt's comment that indicates we'd want to create role that is specific to html:table 17:59:59 Straw poll: Support for label role labeling its parent? 18:00:00 -1 18:00:01 -1 18:00:02 1- 18:00:04 -1 18:00:08 -1 18:00:16 +1 only if the user agent makes the connection to the parent. 18:02:09 clown: that is the very thing I'm asking not be done 18:02:31 Strong opposition to this proposal 18:02:48 Straw poll: Support for aria-labelledfor type attribute? 18:03:06 +1 18:03:08 +0.5 18:03:13 +0.25 18:03:18 +.5 18:03:19 +1 to aria-labelfor (-1 to aria-labelledfor) 18:03:20 cyns: explore 18:03:47 Moderate support, need to explore more 18:04:43 Straw poll: Support doing both label role and aria-labelledfor? 18:05:12 s/aria-labelled-for/aria-labelfor/G 18:05:32 s/aria-labelledfor/aria-labelfor/G 18:05:39 ++1 18:05:46 +1 18:05:48 +1 18:05:51 +1 18:05:54 0 18:05:56 +0.75 18:06:00 (Clarification: +1 = support doing both, -1 = do only one of them) 18:06:28 Reasonably strong support for doing both 18:06:43 ack me 18:06:43 jcraig, you wanted to clarify Matt's comment that indicates we'd want to create role that is specific to html:table 18:07:48 jc: point out that the proposal on the table for a caption role would apply both to table caption and figcaption 18:07:54 mk: so applies to more than one kind of parent? 18:07:55 jc: yes 18:08:04 mk: so complexity in defining where it can be used 18:08:23 jc: also proposed for a summary element in a description 18:08:50 if we do mint a role only for table, the genericness of ARIA isn´t supported 18:09:21 mk: so as it stands, you need an ARIA labeling pointer on the caption 18:09:31 jc: not if using in HTML 18:09:40 host language defines the label arc 18:09:57 but ARIA is more host language independent 18:10:07 we could say has implicit ARIA semantic of label 18:12:06 jc: also there is an action to add a computedRole property 18:12:22 that explicates what the ARIA role worked out to be 18:12:41 so for a