13:53:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eval
13:53:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/03-eval-irc
13:53:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:53:50 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eval
13:53:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3825
13:53:52 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
13:53:53 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
13:53:53 <trackbot> Date: 03 April 2014
13:56:45 <Liz> Liz has joined #eval
13:57:19 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
13:57:26 <Zakim> +Liz
13:58:33 <alistair> alistair has joined #eval
13:58:44 <shadi> zakim, call shadi-617
13:58:44 <Zakim> ok, shadi; the call is being made
13:58:45 <Zakim> +Shadi
13:59:49 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:59:50 <alistair> zakim, ipcaller is alistair
13:59:50 <Zakim> +alistair; got it
14:00:55 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #eval
14:02:19 <Zakim> +Detlev
14:02:27 <Zakim> +Mary_Jo_Mueller
14:02:57 <shadi> zakim, who is making noise?
14:03:08 <Zakim> shadi, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Mary_Jo_Mueller (47%)
14:03:28 <Zakim> -Mary_Jo_Mueller
14:03:45 <shadi> regrets: Richard
14:04:00 <MaryJo> MaryJo has joined #eval
14:04:16 <Zakim> +Mary_Jo_Mueller
14:04:18 <ericvelleman> ericvelleman has joined #eval
14:05:20 <Zakim> +??P29
14:05:38 <shadi> scribe: alistair
14:05:48 <shadi> zakim, ??p26 is ericvelleman
14:05:48 <Zakim> I already had ??P26 as Philipp, shadi
14:05:57 <shadi> zakim, ??p29 is ericvelleman
14:05:57 <Zakim> +ericvelleman; got it
14:06:14 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:06:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see Liz, Shadi, alistair, Detlev, Mary_Jo_Mueller, ericvelleman
14:07:01 <alistair> Eric, welcome
14:07:14 <alistair> Eric, Disposition of comments
14:07:34 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20140130
14:08:03 <alistair> Eric: Some discussion last week
14:08:25 <alistair> Eric: A link was sent for the minutes of the previous meeting
14:08:46 <alistair> Eric: We needed more discussion on the scope last week
14:08:56 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
14:08:56 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
14:09:05 <alistair> Eric: we need to go through major points within Disposition of comments
14:09:11 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/2014/03/27-eval-minutes
14:09:35 <alistair> Eric: We could put points from discussions in surveys which could be circulated
14:10:15 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #eval
14:10:16 <alistair> Eric: We talked about version from title, scoring (needs a bit more)
14:10:43 <alistair> Eric: As many comments as possible will be put in the survey so we can focus our discussions
14:10:57 <Detlev> fine
14:11:04 <alistair> Eric: This will also allow others to look at the work
14:11:09 <Zakim> +Kathy_Wahlbin
14:13:19 <alistair> Shadi: Last week we debriefed from face-to-face
14:13:47 <alistair> Shadi: the survey idea for comments re disposition of comments is a good idea
14:13:59 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-EM/#step1d
14:14:06 <shadi> Step 1.d: Define Evaluation Methods to be Used (Optional)
14:14:12 <alistair> Shadi: Steps requiring further thought 1d
14:14:41 <alistair> Shadi: 1d needs to be better defined, with more explicit reference to techniques and tools
14:15:17 <alistair> Shadi: Email, or a survey or thinking about the questions in the survey would be a good place to start this discussion
14:15:20 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-EM/#step4a
14:15:25 <alistair> Shadi: step 4a
14:15:27 <shadi> Step 4.a: Check for Each Success Criterion
14:15:51 <alistair> Shadi: we need to check back to the minutes from the face to face - IBM comments?
14:16:13 <alistair> Shadi: There were some gaps issues
14:16:19 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-EM/#step5d
14:16:22 <alistair> Shadi: last scoring
14:16:28 <shadi> Step 5.d: Provide an Aggregated Score (Optional)
14:16:58 <alistair> Shadi: this needs to be discussed further with several groups, including WAI coordination group
14:17:24 <alistair> Shadi: We need to make sure that all things we do are in line with the overall goals of WAI
14:17:50 <alistair> Shadi: Are there other topics which need more discussion?
14:17:55 <ericvelleman> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-EM/#step1c
14:17:57 <alistair> Eric: Step 1c
14:18:13 <alistair> Eric: We had a bit of trouble defining this
14:18:28 <alistair> Eric: Difficult to describe baseline
14:18:39 <alistair> Eric: need a bit more guidance
14:19:06 <alistair> Eric: Defining the baselines becomes very broad
14:19:27 <Kathy> q+
14:19:33 <alistair> Eric: There are a number of sections to be addressed - total of 4
14:19:46 <alistair> Eric: should we go through the 4 sections
14:19:47 <ericvelleman> q?
14:20:01 <alistair> Shadi: Its fine that we raise issues ourselves
14:20:41 <Kathy> q-
14:20:42 <alistair> Shadi: define the baseline is a candidate for discussion with the WCAG group on accessibility support - understanding doc
14:21:13 <alistair> Kathy: Discussion in WCAG working group has had some discussions
14:21:34 <alistair> Shadi: Kathy to be coordination point between WCAG group and EVAL re baseline
14:22:02 <alistair> Shadi: We need to think about the questions which go with each section, which might go into surveys
14:22:14 <alistair> Eric: Leave 1c and start with 1d
14:22:54 <alistair> Shadi: The questions would be what do we want to do and what do we need to move forward
14:23:05 <Detlev> q+
14:23:11 <alistair> Eric: Back to 1c - what can we clarify to make this more workable
14:23:20 <shadi> q+
14:23:26 <Detlev> ack me
14:24:11 <alistair> Detlev: Term baseline is ambigous - is it the same as lowest common denominator
14:24:34 <Tim> Tim has joined #eval
14:24:48 <alistair> Detlev: From the wording it is difficult to know what is required, and what should be defined
14:25:22 <alistair> Eric, baseline is a list of several things at the moment
14:25:33 <Kathy> q+
14:25:46 <shadi> q-
14:25:49 <alistair> Detlev: We could have positive - browser x, assistive tech y
14:26:47 <alistair> Detlev: Or a lower version with lots of tech which needs to be supported
14:27:19 <alistair> Kathy: Under WCAG accessibility support there are a number of considerations which we could take and make into a diagram
14:27:35 <alistair> q+
14:27:36 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
14:27:36 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
14:28:07 <ericvelleman> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#accessibility-supporteddef
14:28:13 <alistair> Kathy: would could also have a list of things people have to think about when choosing a list of tech - what should you be testing on
14:28:53 <alistair> Kathy: There are further implications with regard to different techs
14:29:05 <ericvelleman> http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/conformance#uc-accessibility-support-head
14:29:10 <alistair> Kathy: we could put the information into a diagram
14:29:28 <alistair> Kathy: you cannot say test in this, this and this
14:29:51 <alistair> Eric: we could copy from the document, but we have tried not to to date
14:30:08 <Detlev> aim for *simple* explanaton of options for defining baseline
14:30:21 <alistair> Kathy: if you read the considerations documents there is a list of things
14:30:44 <alistair> Eric: Like the idea of flow diagram
14:31:09 <Detlev> q+
14:31:19 <shadi> ack kath
14:31:38 <shadi> Alistair: baseline is something you'd expect the website owner you define
14:31:39 <Detlev> XCan't undersatand Alistair!
14:31:53 <shadi> s/you define/to define
14:32:01 <Detlev> ack me
14:32:20 <shadi> ...WCAG document is primarily designed for developers rather than evaluators
14:32:25 <ericvelleman> q?
14:32:42 <shadi> ...really up to the Evaluation Commissioner in this situation
14:32:53 <shadi> ack ali
14:32:59 <Detlev> q+
14:33:59 <alistair> Detlev: Disagree
14:34:30 <shadi> [[This step ... is ideally carried out in consultation with the evaluation commissioner (who may or may not be the website owner) to ensure common expectations about the scope of the evaluation.]]
14:34:47 <alistair> Detlev: We evaluate against BIVT, which fixes what we look at
14:34:48 <Kathy> q+
14:35:34 <shadi> Alistair: but essentially up to the website owner what they define as their baseline
14:35:50 <shadi> ...putting a definition contrains them
14:36:03 <shadi> s/contrains/constrains
14:36:22 <shadi> q+
14:36:49 <shadi> ack det
14:36:50 <alistair> Detlev: It is what you are looking at - but to simply take what the website owner states as sufficient is missing the mark
14:37:14 <alistair> Eric: the question is who decides the baseline - the commissioner or the evaluator
14:37:32 <alistair> Eric: it would be useful to discuss this further
14:37:56 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
14:38:47 <alistair> Alistair: the commissioner sets the context of where they think their website will be used
14:39:17 <alistair> Eric: We should leave this for further discussion
14:39:30 <Kathy> q-
14:40:04 <alistair> Kathy: as far as support, regardless of who decides the baseline we still have a number of questions which would need to be asked
14:40:28 <alistair> Kathy: many people don't know, and many will need extra help from experts
14:41:18 <alistair> Kathy: The baseline will differ from person to person - depending on who is using the documentation
14:41:55 <alistair> Kathy: We probably understand better that the commissioner as to accessibility support
14:42:45 <alistair> Kathy: It is going to be different in different contexts - the goal is to ensure that it will work for the end user, in their different regions
14:42:51 <shadi> ack me
14:43:24 <alistair> Shadi: Agree with everyone - minimal requirements are set by WCAG
14:43:42 <alistair> Shadi: bar is set, below that you are not meeting WCAG
14:44:21 <alistair> Shadi: This is a grey zone, where you can technically meet WCAG but in reality this does not work broadly
14:45:01 <alistair> Shadi: How to meet WCAG are decisions for the web developers, we can of course provide a set of warnings
14:45:28 <alistair> Shadi: We agreed from the beginning that this would not be adding additional requirements
14:46:20 <alistair> Shadi: We cannot be more prescriptive that WCAG, and we would hope to work with the website owner to determine what baseline they were considering
14:46:51 <alistair> Shadi: Warnings as opposed to what is technically required by WCAG
14:46:53 <ericvelleman> q?
14:47:05 <alistair> Shadi: WCAG sets the requirements
14:47:50 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:47:50 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:48:13 <alistair> Eric: Look again at WCAG and see if we can clarify things a little.
14:48:17 <alistair> q+
14:48:23 <shadi> [[+1 to providing clarity *from the perspective of an evaluator*]]
14:50:20 <shadi> Alistair: issue is that setting the baseline by the evaluator might lead to differences
14:50:41 <shadi> ...can't get to an agreed baseline
14:50:51 <shadi> ...involvement of the website owner is necessary
14:50:54 <Detlev>  q+
14:50:55 <alistair> Eric: 1c clarify steps or questions, and see if we can add ownership
14:51:02 <alistair> q-
14:51:31 <alistair> Eric: can we atleast give people the questions - think about this when setting baseline
14:51:35 <shadi> q+
14:51:39 <Detlev> ack me
14:52:29 <alistair> Detlev: Evaluator should not set the baseline, it should be more set by a group - disabilities groups- etc...
14:52:56 <alistair> Detlev: The audience should create a consensus
14:53:34 <alistair> Detlev: Some people like the latest things, but from a user perspective this might not be the best thing
14:53:58 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
14:53:58 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
14:54:00 <alistair> Eric: I'll look at the section and see what could be done - maybe a number of questions.
14:54:13 <ericvelleman> q?
14:54:14 <shadi> ack me
14:55:08 <alistair> Shadi: Another issue or two: consistency questions - does the baseline need to be consistent in a page, over a website
14:55:34 <alistair> Shadi: and that the baseline should be over all widgets, rather than one for one and another for another
14:56:14 <alistair> Shadi: We need to differentiate between WCAG failures and other issues
14:56:44 <alistair> Eric: Summary, I will propose a list of questions
14:57:07 <alistair> Eric: Surveys will be started for a number of comments
14:57:22 <alistair> Eric: Then everyone can have a look at the surveys
14:57:30 <alistair> Eric: next time 1d
14:57:44 <alistair> Eric: and scoring
14:57:46 <Detlev> q+
14:58:05 <Detlev> ack me
14:58:50 <alistair> Detlev: EIII project - evaluating websites - is it possible to get input
14:59:13 <alistair> Detlev: information on scoring would be great
14:59:24 <alistair> Eric: We haven't talked about scoring yet
14:59:57 <shadi> http://www.eiao.net/publications/
14:59:59 <alistair> Eric: The same discussions are being held everywhere, highlighting the difficulties with scoring
15:00:40 <alistair> Tim: We're working on something
15:00:59 <alistair> Shadi: Scoring is a very open ended discussion
15:01:17 <alistair> Shadi: No rubber stamped solutions
15:01:41 <alistair> Shadi: Other three things are easier to move forward with
15:01:56 <alistair> Eric: Next telco next week
15:01:58 <Liz> bye
15:02:05 <alistair> Eric: Survey will come in advance
15:02:13 <Detlev> bye
15:02:14 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
15:02:18 <Zakim> -Detlev
15:02:20 <Zakim> -Mary_Jo_Mueller
15:02:24 <Zakim> -Kathy_Wahlbin
15:02:25 <Zakim> -Liz
15:02:27 <ericvelleman> ericvelleman has left #eval
15:02:28 <Zakim> -alistair
15:02:29 <Zakim> -Shadi
15:02:33 <Zakim> -ericvelleman
15:02:34 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
15:02:34 <Zakim> Attendees were Liz, Shadi, alistair, Detlev, Mary_Jo_Mueller, ericvelleman, Kathy_Wahlbin, Tim_Boland
15:05:51 <Kathy> Kathy has left #eval
15:16:54 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
15:16:54 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:16:54 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
15:17:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:17:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/03-eval-minutes.html trackbot
15:17:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:17:03 <RRSAgent> I see no action items