15:02:11 RRSAgent has joined #html-media
15:02:11 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/01-html-media-irc
15:02:13 RRSAgent, make logs public
15:02:13 Zakim has joined #html-media
15:02:15 Zakim, this will be 63342
15:02:15 ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
15:02:16 Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
15:02:16 Date: 01 April 2014
15:02:21 davide has joined #html-media
15:03:01 zakim, who's here?
15:03:01 HTML_WG()11:00AM has not yet started, pal
15:03:04 On IRC I see davide, Zakim, RRSAgent, paulc, johnsim, joesteele, pal, pladd, ddorwin, glenn, wseltzer, trackbot
15:03:15 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:17 scribe: joesteele
15:03:17 HTML_WG()11:00AM has not yet started, paulc
15:03:17 On IRC I see davide, Zakim, RRSAgent, paulc, johnsim, joesteele, pal, pladd, ddorwin, glenn, wseltzer, trackbot
15:03:23 chair: paulc
15:03:27 trackbot, start meeting
15:03:29 RRSAgent, make logs public
15:03:30 BobLund has joined #html-media
15:03:31 zakim, this is 63342
15:03:31 ok, glenn; that matches HTML_WG()11:00AM
15:03:31 Zakim, this will be 63342
15:03:32 Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
15:03:32 Date: 01 April 2014
15:03:33 ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
15:03:44 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:44 I notice HTML_WG()11:00AM has restarted
15:03:45 On the phone I see pladd, [IPcaller], davide, +1.781.221.aaaa, [Microsoft], +1.720.897.aabb, [Microsoft.a]
15:03:56 zakim, [microsoft.a] is me
15:03:56 zakim, aabb is me
15:03:57 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
15:03:57 +johnsim; got it
15:03:57 +glenn; got it
15:03:57 +paulc; got it
15:04:14 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:15 On the phone I see pladd, [IPcaller], davide, +1.781.221.aaaa, [Microsoft], glenn, johnsim
15:04:16 [Microsoft] has paulc
15:04:23 + +1.425.936.aacc
15:04:30 zakim, [aaaa] is pal
15:04:30 sorry, paulc, I do not recognize a party named '[aaaa]'
15:04:30 zakim, I am aaaa
15:04:31 +pal; got it
15:04:36 zakim, aacc is me
15:04:36 +ddorwin; got it
15:04:44 adrianba has joined #html-media
15:04:48 zakim, aaaa is pal
15:04:48 sorry, paulc, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:04:53 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:53 On the phone I see pladd, [IPcaller], davide, pal, [Microsoft], glenn, johnsim, ddorwin
15:04:55 [Microsoft] has paulc
15:05:49 Zakim, IPCaller is me
15:05:49 +joesteele; got it
15:06:20 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Apr/0000.html
15:06:21 + +1.425.614.aadd
15:06:26 zakim, aadd is me
15:06:27 +adrianba; got it
15:06:38 Topic: Role Call
15:06:48 Zakim, who is here?
15:06:49 On the phone I see pladd, joesteele, davide, pal, [Microsoft], glenn, johnsim, ddorwin, adrianba
15:06:51 [Microsoft] has paulc
15:06:51 On IRC I see adrianba, BobLund, davide, Zakim, RRSAgent, paulc, johnsim, joesteele, pal, pladd, ddorwin, glenn, wseltzer, trackbot
15:07:02 +BobLund
15:07:12 Topic: Intro comments
15:07:43 jdsmith has joined #html-media
15:07:43 +[Microsoft.a]
15:07:43 Discussin F2F next week
15:08:07 Two groups to handle in the agenda
15:08:23 Promises, accessibility, ...
15:08:34 zakim, who's noisy?
15:08:42 ... want to get a clear understanding
15:08:45 glenn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (14%), johnsim (20%)
15:08:47 s/accessibility/extensibility
15:08:57 s/accessibility/extensibility/
15:09:09 paulc: start the agenda with item #5
15:09:27 ... first section is 25199
15:09:43 ... David filed and made 5 other bugs dependent on it
15:09:52 Topic: Bug#25199
15:09:57 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25199
15:10:10 Blocks: 17750 21798 24081 24216 24771
15:10:22 paulc: this bug blocks 5 other bugs -- David thinks this is a solution to those other bugs
15:10:29 ... like to hear what others think on this
15:10:46 ddorwin: Promises is a way of returning async results -- WebCrypto going to LC with them
15:11:07 ... we have async operations, previously used the Error event but kinda inconsistent
15:11:25 ... but if you add methods have no idea where errors are coming from
15:11:39 ... think Promises solve some of this issue
15:12:05 paulc: willing to spend time discussing as this group of bugs covers over 25%
15:12:13 ... need to discuss or at least come up with a plan
15:12:31 ddorwin: its 4 pages -- happy to discuss
15:12:54 joesteele: I think it is a good idea -- but have to review fully
15:13:00 glenn: agree with the proposal
15:13:24 paulc: anyone else?
15:13:25 @paulc: very choppy
15:13:39 paulc: what is our plan for processing the 6 bugs?
15:13:41 -glenn
15:13:53 ... should I add this an an agenda at the F2F?
15:14:08 +glenn
15:14:18 -adrianba
15:14:22 joesteele: I think we should discuss at the F2F
15:14:39 +adrianba
15:14:48 ... only because I need time to review
15:14:53 -BobLund
15:14:57 paulc: would like to know this will let us clear those bugs
15:15:10 very choppy
15:15:20 reconnecting
15:15:22 +BobLund
15:15:27 -[Microsoft]
15:15:47 zakim is not answering
15:15:57 i had that problem the first time i tried
15:16:07 …this morning
15:16:12 Zakim?
15:16:22 not answering me either :-)
15:16:51 +[Microsoft]
15:16:56 joesteele: has everyone had a chance to read David's proposal -- this would be a good time
15:18:07 paulc: will I have a concrete proposal at the F2F to handle these bugs?
15:18:16 ddorwin: the Promises API reshapes all these APIs
15:18:41 ... we have committed to some of the changes, others change completely, it will be a drastic change
15:19:02 johnsim: is it the decision that we will change to Promises?
15:19:10 paulc: only two folks in agreement so far
15:19:18 joesteele: 3 including David
15:19:41 paulc: would like to get some sense from the group today what the impact would be on the other bugs
15:20:03 ... would be a staged solution, if we decide to go that way in first 5 minutes, won't know how to process the other 5 bugs
15:20:12 ... could review the impact of this change today
15:20:29 jernoble has joined #html-media
15:20:44 17750 - details being discussed - resolved by Promises
15:20:55 21798 - errors will change drastically. still need to evaluate
15:20:57 ... proposals may look different for the other bugs if we go in this direction
15:21:09 24081 - resolved (mostly?) by Promises
15:21:24 24216 - agreed to do. Promises affect the API
15:21:49 paulc: 24771 Microsoft agreed to review, David marked it as dependent, Microsoft has made no comment as yet
15:22:03 24771 - jdsmith agreed. Potentially simplified by promises.
15:22:05 ... if we make the decision to move to this, not sure what we will do with the other bugs at the F2F
15:22:22 ddorwin: updated IRC with the status of the bugs you mentioned
15:22:41 ... for the most part we have agreed on a solution
15:22:58 johnsim: have Mark made a comment yet? he is active there
15:23:06 ddorwin: not yet
15:23:28 paulc: will put this cluster on the F2F agenda
15:24:01 ... we will try to make a decision on 25199 -- if you are not going to make a decision, make your position known before the F2F so folks can review and repsond
15:24:04 i think moving in the direction of promises for async is good - i haven't reviewed the details of the proposal - my initial reaction is that promises might not map very well to the unordered events that can fire in EME
15:24:21 but i can see it making some of the error handling better
15:24:29 ... folks who own the other bugs should review Davids synopsis and determine if feasible/reasonable and how the bugs would change
15:24:35 is this an all or nothing proposal?
15:24:36 i have a question about promises
15:24:40 q+
15:24:40 s/17750 - details being discussed - resolved by Promises/17750 - implemented but there are some remaining details being discussed; these are resolved by Promises./
15:24:53 paulc: looks like Microsofts comment on 25771 is positive so we won't review further
15:25:18 ddorwin: Promises is not replacing all events, errors cannot be replaced by Promises
15:25:35 q+
15:26:22 ack pal
15:26:32 pal: looks like client support for desktop browsers, but not a core feature of ECMAscript, what about support outside of desktop browsers?
15:26:50 ddorwin: defined by ECMAScript now -- it is the future of async APIs
15:27:25 brad: is there a compelling reason to make the move now instead of resolving the bugs first and then moving later?
15:27:40 ddorwin: now is the time because it is a major change before LC
15:27:53 +1 to what ddorwin said; the time is now, ... or never
15:28:17 ECMAScript 7?
15:28:24 paulc: this would be called out in LC review - so obvious thing to address now
15:28:42 paulc: was this published as sidebar to EC 6?
15:28:44 it will be in ES6
15:28:54 ddorwin: thought it was in 6
15:29:04 pal: want to make sure we have a normative reference
15:29:19 ddorwin: WebCrypto is in LC (so would have this problem)
15:29:30 pal: we are not that group
15:29:34 ack bob
15:29:36 paulc: understood
15:30:07 Topic: Bug#25092
15:30:09 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25092
15:30:30 paulc: filed by Mark -- not here
15:30:46 ... David do you want to summarize?
15:30:55 See David's response in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25092#c1
15:31:05 jamil has joined #html-media
15:31:08 ddorwin: it appears some implementations will downscale content based on the license, he wants a way for app to know that
15:31:41 ... this is specific to that use case, perhaps what apps really need to know is what KIDs are usable at the moment
15:31:54 ... previously the way to know what is usable was to play it
15:31:56 q+
15:32:11 ... this way app could query the available keys
15:32:21 ack joe
15:34:00 joesteele: in this situation, the key may be the same for both resolutions. this is a specific example of the CDM needing to communicate to the application
15:34:37 ddorwin: did think about that - could issue licenses to fake KIDs and use those a s a proxy for this
15:34:56 ... what can you communicate in the same key case? need to figure that out in a consistent common and interoperable way
15:35:15 ... think fake KIDs solves this in a generic way
15:35:39 paulc: let's move on - Joe please respond in the bug with your explanation. David can respond in kind
15:35:47 ... more can be done at the F2F
15:35:52 Topic: Bug#25200
15:35:57 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25200
15:36:05 paulc: persistent license thread
15:36:12 ... David you filed this bug
15:36:20 Email thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Mar/0020.html
15:36:29 re: promises in ES6, see sections 25.4 and 7.5 in http://wiki.ecmascript.org/lib/exe/fetch.php?id=harmony%3Aspecification_drafts&cache=cache&media=harmony:working_draft_ecma-262_edition_6_01-20-14-nomarkup.pdf
15:36:36 ... of course original request is not an active participant
15:36:47 This bug actually came out of https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24025
15:36:48 ... Joe responded to the request
15:36:51 Joe's response: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25200#c1
15:36:54 ... handle here or at F2F
15:37:20 dorwin: this was actually my bug -- pasted above
15:37:30 ... really talking about offline licenses
15:37:42 ... Joe and Shinya have other models in mind
15:37:49 ... might not match with EME
15:38:04 ... this is mostly about offline storage and the license request
15:38:23 q+
15:38:35 paulc: so it looks like there is a response from Shinya from this morning
15:38:40 Shinya response: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25200#c2
15:38:43 ack john
15:39:10 johnsim: in some cases whether the license can be persisted in dependent on the DRM not within the applications control
15:39:27 ... lot of the discussion is around the application not being able to override what the DRM is saying
15:39:53 ... I think that the question is whether EME should handle this at all or just handled by the DRM?
15:40:05 ... also asking David -- what do you mean by offline licenses?
15:40:19 ddorwin: agree that DRM is ultimately responsible for the licenses
15:40:59 ... talking about Netflix model .. if Netflix allowed you to get on a plane and still playback your content -- that is what I am talking about
15:41:10 johnsim: so you mean a licenses that can be used when offline
15:41:31 ... that is what we mean as well -- no need to request a license when playing back
15:41:48 ... in our model the decision is made by the service sending down the license
15:42:00 .. at the DRM level not the application level
15:42:15 dorwin: I am thinking about watching online versus offline
15:42:18 q+
15:42:33 It looks like there is a cluster of 24025 (RESOLVED), 25200 and 25201 and possibly a bug filed by Joe.
15:42:41 zakim, who's noisy?
15:42:51 glenn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (33%), johnsim (55%)
15:42:53 johnsim: in the scenario where the app wants to do something - this is independent of what is negotiated with the service
15:43:05 ... the application wants to prevent cacheing when it could be cahced
15:43:32 ddorwin: this flag would tell the CDM what the app wants to do
15:43:41 ... can't override the DRM policy
15:43:57 ... with the store() method would directly control whether stored or not
15:44:09 johnsim: what would the diff. be?
15:44:17 ddorwin: depends on the DRM
15:44:27 johnsim: would have to store it somewhere though.
15:44:47 ... if I wanted to build a solution where I built the app and own the key server
15:45:07 ... I can let the app/user decide whether to store the license
15:45:29 ... then the DRM would issue the right kind of license (that could be persisted)
15:45:46 ... as opposed to having it be a fixed policy at the server
15:46:04 ack joe
15:46:54 q+
15:47:02 ack dd
15:47:47 ddorwin: the main proposal is that a flag is passed to allow the CDM to say I want a persistent license
15:47:56 ... not storing is not what I meant
15:48:11 joesteele: this would not be used by anyone in my opinion
15:48:35 ddorwin: getting the persistent license and not storing it was not what I was proposing
15:49:27 paulc: this sounds like 24025 -- Joe says he would file a bug (25217)
15:49:37 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25217
15:49:45 It looks like there is a cluster of 24025 (RESOLVED), 25200 and 25201 and 25217.
15:49:50 paulc: so this is another cluster of bugs that are related
15:50:09 ... should be close to each other in the F2F
15:50:22 ... I will skip the next two bugs then as they are related
15:50:29 Topic: Bug#25218
15:50:31 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25218
15:50:33 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25218
15:51:33 Note to Paul: consider adding 25218 to the cluster of 24025 (RESOLVED), 25200 and 25201 and 25217.
15:52:04 q+
15:52:36 25218 deals with sessions not be granular enough and it allows for the application to manage licenses/keys
15:52:44 ack dd
15:52:57 ddorwin: want a clarification on what is in a session versus
15:55:44 "A Key Session, or simply Session, represents the lifetime of the license(s)/key(s) it contains and associates all messages related to them."
15:55:47 paulc: will have to deal with this in the F2F -- not all scribed
15:55:57 Sessions can only be created with initData.
15:55:58