18:57:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:57:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/03/11-aapi-irc
18:57:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:57:09 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:57:11 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:57:11 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
18:57:12 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:57:12 <trackbot> Date: 11 March 2014
18:57:47 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
18:57:53 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
18:57:58 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:57:58 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
18:58:06 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:58:06 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:58:18 <clown> agenda:  this
18:58:26 <clown> agenda+ Progress on a 1.1 version of UAIG (Joseph).
18:58:36 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-481/ACTION-1368/ACTION-1369: (David, Cynthia) aria-live removal events should/must happen before object removal.
18:58:47 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-441/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Test case for incomplete use of aria-posinset/aria-setsize.
18:58:55 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-618/ACTION-1371: (Cynthia) Investigate how IE implements item de-selection in single selection container.
18:59:01 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-635/ACTION-1372: (Cynthia) Create test case for rowgroup role.
18:59:12 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-644: (All) Update ATK/AT-SPI mapping for aria-hidden="true" to reflect elements should not be exposed/mapped.
18:59:21 <clown> agenda+ 1.1 ISSUES and ACTIONS: (All)  Start with ISSUE-540,
18:59:31 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:59:41 <clown> chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:59:45 <Zakim> + +1.415.624.aaaa
19:00:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/11-aapi-minutes.html clown
19:00:42 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:00:54 <Zakim> +Joanie_Diggs
19:01:25 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
19:01:38 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
19:01:38 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa; got it
19:01:57 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
19:01:57 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
19:01:57 <clown> zakim, who's here?
19:01:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, Joanie_Diggs, [Microsoft]
19:01:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see bgaraventa1979, Zakim, RRSAgent, clown, davidb, joanie, trackbot, MichaelC
19:02:11 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
19:02:50 <cyns> scribe: cyns
19:06:03 <clown> zakim, take up agendum
19:06:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up agendum', clown
19:06:12 <clown> take up item 1
19:07:06 <cyns> JS: I have created a version 1.1 UAIG that's a full copy of 1.0 and incorporated jason kiss's javascript for table display
19:07:30 <cyns> JS: still working on build issues.  I will publish when I've figured that out
19:08:36 <clown> take up item 2
19:08:54 <clown> issue-481?
19:08:54 <trackbot> issue-481 -- aria-live removal events should or must happen before object removal -- open
19:08:54 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/481
19:09:34 <cyns_> cyns_ has joined #aapi
19:09:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/11-aapi-minutes.html clown
19:09:57 <cyns_> scribe: cyns_
19:11:12 <clown> action-1368?
19:11:12 <trackbot> action-1368 -- Cynthia Shelly to Investigate implementation of aria-live region events in ie apropos issue-481. -- due 2014-02-11 -- OPEN
19:11:12 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1368
19:12:37 <clown> take up next item
19:12:46 <clown> take up next item
19:12:59 <clown> take up item 3
19:13:08 <clown> issue-441?
19:13:08 <trackbot> issue-441 -- Normative UAIG requirements for what UAs do when aria-posinset or aria-setsize is provided explicitly on some, but not all, elements within a set. -- open
19:13:08 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/441
19:14:15 <clown> take up item 4
19:14:26 <clown> issueu-618?
19:14:32 <clown> issue-618?
19:14:32 <trackbot> issue-618 -- MSAA selection event mapping for single selection case when item becomes unselected -- open
19:14:32 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/618
19:15:14 <clown> take up item 5
19:15:23 <clown> issue-635?
19:15:23 <trackbot> issue-635 -- Determine if uaig mappings for rowgroup are correct -- open
19:15:23 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/635
19:15:54 <clown> take up item 6
19:16:04 <clown> issue-644?
19:16:04 <trackbot> issue-644 -- Update ATK/AT-SPI mapping for aria-hidden="true" to reflect elements should not be exposed/mapped -- open
19:16:04 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/644
19:16:28 <cyns_> changed due dates for cynthia's actions to 4/8
19:16:32 <clown> "Element SHOULD NOT be exposed, unless it is focused or fires an accessibility event. If the object is exposed in the accessibility tree, map all attributes are normal. In addition expose object attribute hidden:true."
19:16:57 <cyns_> JS: david said mozilla ok with this wording.
19:17:27 <cyns_> JD: it's better than current language, but not as strong as she'd like
19:17:49 <cyns_> JS: David said he'd like to do this, but doens't think he can get developers to do it.
19:18:50 <cyns_> JS: can't have a MUST because of the 'unless' clause according to RFC
19:19:10 <cyns_> JD: this seems like an author error to me
19:19:54 <cyns_> JS: if you use display:none with labeledby doesn't get calculated
19:20:16 <cyns_> JS: it does get put in the label text, but no pointer to hidden accessible.
19:20:34 <cyns_> JS: I think the same thing probably happens with aria-hidden
19:21:24 <cyns_> JD: I'm ok with that.  But it is a lot of work for Orca to pull this info out of elements.
19:22:26 <cyns_> JS: possible use case: tooltip.  You might use aria-describedby to point to tooltip, but the tooltip isn't in the tree until you mouse over it.  once you mouse over it, the tooltip is displayed, the accessible appears in the tree, and the relationship exists.  when the tooltip goes away so does the accessible
19:23:25 <bgaraventa1979> a quick question, any ideas how this would work in touch screen devices?
19:23:25 <cyns_> JD: Orca doesn't want to care if this is aria or some other way to get accessibiltiy info.
19:25:11 <cyns_> CS: AT shouldn't have to care if accessibiltiy tree info comes from aria or some other technology.  Narrator, for example, does not know where the aapi values came from
19:25:38 <cyns_> JD: could do a children changed at instead?  Should this thing that doesn't exist be in the tree?
19:25:49 <cyns_> JS: it should not be n the tree unless it's visible.
19:26:08 <cyns_> JS: tooltip starts out aria-hidden, author should chagne that when it's shown
19:27:33 <cyns_> JS: joanie wants it to say 'if aria-hidden=true' it shouldn't be in the tree
19:27:37 <cyns_> JD: correct
19:27:42 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#mapping_state-property_table
19:28:18 <clown> "Not exposed in AX API unless focused. If focused, expose as normal."
19:28:53 <cyns_> JS: trying to get language for ATK that's closer to Apple's language
19:28:56 <cyns_> JD: exactly
19:30:13 <cyns_> JS: would like this new language across all columns.  cynthia, are you ok with this for UIA and UIAExpress?
19:30:26 <clown> "Element SHOULD NOT be exposed, unless it is focused or fires an accessibility event. If the object is exposed in the accessibility tree, map all attributes are normal. In addition expose aria-hidden is true in AriaProperties."
19:30:39 <clown> *map all attributes AS normal.
19:30:44 <cyns_> CS: looks good to me.
19:32:23 <clown> action:  Joseph to add the above language to the UAIG for aria-hidden for UIA Express, UIA, IA2, and ATK/AT-SPI
19:32:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1399 - Add the above language to the uaig for aria-hidden for uia express, uia, ia2, and atk/at-spi [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2014-03-18].
19:32:34 <clown> action-1399?
19:32:34 <trackbot> action-1399 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Add the above language to the uaig for aria-hidden for uia express, uia, ia2, and atk/at-spi -- due 2014-03-18 -- OPEN
19:32:34 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1399
19:39:47 <cyns_> JD: aria-hidden is content that shouldn't be visible to AT
19:40:01 <cyns_> JD: non-current slide in carosel
19:41:40 <cyns_> CS: modal dialog with greyed out background is another example.
19:42:12 <cyns_> BG: voiceover doesn't make this distinction currently.
19:42:36 <cyns_> CS:  this area is buggy in all the browsers.
19:43:30 <cyns_> JS:  UAIG says in essence "if it's focused, it's in the accessibility tree"
19:43:43 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#include_elements
19:43:50 <cyns_> JS: I don't like this wording
19:45:26 <cyns_> CS: focusable rather than focused?  That breaks the modal dialog use case, which is, afaik, the most common use case for aria-hidden
19:48:10 <cyns_> JD: need to add some guidance about aria-hidden=false
19:50:24 <cyns_> BG: div with display:none and aria-hidden=false, what happens?
19:53:04 <cyns_> JS: @hidden + aria-hidden=false should be not visible but in tree.
19:54:00 <joanie> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945194
19:54:16 <cyns_> CS: having something that is not visible but in accessibility tree is an anti-pattern, not a feature
19:54:57 <joanie> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945194#c60
19:57:05 <cyns_> BG: there are cases where offscreen is a useful technique.
19:57:32 <cyns_> JD: this should be 2.0, because it's a complicated issue
19:57:59 <cyns_> JS: what if html5.1 gets it in?
19:58:17 <cyns_> CS: we should synch with html a11y tf on this
19:58:49 <cyns_> CS: +1 to Joanie
20:00:34 <cyns_> issue: should aria-hidden=false put things in teh tree, or stay a no-op as it is now?
20:00:34 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-647 - Should aria-hidden=false put things in teh tree, or stay a no-op as it is now?.  Please complete additional details at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/647/edit>.
20:01:09 <clown> issue-647?
20:01:09 <trackbot> issue-647 -- Should aria-hidden=false put things in teh tree, or stay a no-op as it is now? -- raised
20:01:09 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/647
20:01:10 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
20:01:38 <Zakim> -Joanie_Diggs
20:01:40 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
20:02:56 <clown> zakim, part
20:02:56 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, +1.415.624.aaaa, Joanie_Diggs, [Microsoft], Bryan_Garaventa
20:02:56 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:03:05 <clown> regrets:  David_Bolter
20:03:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/03/11-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:05:16 <joanie> or in between "false" and "put"
20:05:49 <clown> :-)
20:06:15 <joanie> they appeared in the past right?