IRC log of wai-wcag on 2014-02-20
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 21:00:11 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:00:11 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/20-wai-wcag-irc
- 21:00:13 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 21:00:13 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:00:15 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
- 21:00:15 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot, I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM already started
- 21:00:16 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
- 21:00:16 [Zakim]
- +James_Nurthen
- 21:00:16 [trackbot]
- Date: 20 February 2014
- 21:00:23 [jamesn]
- jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:00:28 [Joshue108]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 21:00:28 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see +1.617.766.aaaa, [IPcaller], Katie_Haritos-Shea, +1.910.278.aabb, James_Nurthen
- 21:00:50 [AWK]
- Agenda+ discuss ARIA10/F65 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/imagediscussmtg/results
- 21:00:53 [Joshue108]
- zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
- 21:00:53 [Zakim]
- +Joshue; got it
- 21:00:59 [Joshue108]
- zakim, mute me
- 21:00:59 [Zakim]
- Joshue should now be muted
- 21:01:03 [AWK]
- Zakim, aaaa is AWK
- 21:01:03 [Zakim]
- +AWK; got it
- 21:01:08 [Joshue108]
- zakim, unmute me
- 21:01:08 [Zakim]
- Joshue should no longer be muted
- 21:01:17 [Zakim]
- +[Google]
- 21:01:25 [Kathleen]
- zakim, aabb is me
- 21:01:25 [Zakim]
- +Kathleen; got it
- 21:01:29 [Loretta]
- akim, Google is Loretta
- 21:01:41 [Loretta]
- zakim, Google is Loretta
- 21:01:41 [Zakim]
- +Loretta; got it
- 21:01:44 [AWK]
- Zakim, who is on the phone?
- 21:01:44 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see AWK, Joshue, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Kathleen, James_Nurthen, Loretta
- 21:01:54 [Joshue108]
- Chair: Ad-hoc
- 21:02:45 [Ryladog]
- Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:03:12 [Zakim]
- + +1.703.862.aacc
- 21:03:33 [AWK]
- Zakim, aacc is Jon Avila
- 21:03:33 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'aacc is Jon Avila', AWK
- 21:03:45 [kerstin_probiesch]
- kerstin_probiesch has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:03:59 [Zakim]
- +Marc_Johlic
- 21:05:06 [AWK]
- Chair: AWK
- 21:05:28 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 21:05:40 [Jon_Avila]
- Jon_Avila has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:05:45 [AWK]
- Zakim, aacc is Jon Avila
- 21:05:45 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'aacc is Jon Avila', AWK
- 21:05:50 [kerstin_probiesch]
- zakim, ipcaller is me
- 21:05:50 [Zakim]
- +kerstin_probiesch; got it
- 21:05:52 [AWK]
- Zakim, aacc is Jon_Avila
- 21:05:52 [Zakim]
- +Jon_Avila; got it
- 21:05:56 [kerstin_probiesch]
- zakim, mute me
- 21:05:56 [Zakim]
- kerstin_probiesch should now be muted
- 21:05:59 [Joshue108]
- zakim, mute me
- 21:05:59 [Zakim]
- Joshue should now be muted
- 21:06:03 [AWK]
- Zakim, take up item 1
- 21:06:03 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "discuss ARIA10/F65 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/imagediscussmtg/results" taken up [from AWK]
- 21:06:24 [marcjohlic]
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- 21:06:28 [adam_solomon]
- adam_solomon has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:06:39 [AWK]
- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/imagediscussmtg/results
- 21:06:48 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 21:07:06 [adam_solomon]
- zakim, [IPcaller] is adam_solomon
- 21:07:06 [Zakim]
- +adam_solomon; got it
- 21:08:18 [Ryladog]
- q+
- 21:09:58 [AWK]
- We need a scribe
- 21:10:34 [Joshue108]
- Zakim, unmute me
- 21:10:34 [Zakim]
- Joshue should no longer be muted
- 21:11:43 [Ryladog]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
- 21:11:45 [AWK]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
- 21:12:55 [AWK]
- Scribe: James
- 21:13:06 [Joshue108]
- Zakim, mute me
- 21:13:06 [Zakim]
- Joshue should now be muted
- 21:13:08 [Joshue108]
- +q
- 21:13:11 [Joshue108]
- ack ryla
- 21:15:02 [jamesn]
- KHS: Value of having alt there is because some tools don't support aria-labelledby and aria-label
- 21:15:26 [adam_solomon]
- +q
- 21:15:36 [Ryladog]
- Alt works for most users who are PWD including those who do and do not use AT
- 21:16:03 [jamesn]
- JA: I like the idea of aria-labelledby is that generally the text is on screen. Think this is positive. Generally not supportive of aria-label as much as we already have alt. I beleive alt text should be available to low-vision users and users with cognitive imparments
- 21:16:28 [jamesn]
- JA: title I am very much against as the html spec says it is advisory information for these elements.
- 21:16:33 [jamesn]
- JA: this is pretty much it
- 21:16:44 [Ryladog]
- +1 ti title comment by A
- 21:16:51 [Ryladog]
- JA
- 21:16:56 [jamesn]
- JA: if i had to pick a choice - i would side with something which didn't require aly
- 21:17:16 [jamesn]
- JA: I would like to see a matrix of current support. Would like to see all the possible cases
- 21:17:34 [jamesn]
- JA: just testing an image may not be the same as testing an image inside a link
- 21:17:39 [Joshue108]
- ack me
- 21:17:45 [Ryladog]
- q+
- 21:17:47 [jamesn]
- AK: Stefan not on the call
- 21:17:56 [AWK]
- ZAkim, queue?
- 21:17:56 [Zakim]
- I see adam_solomon, Ryladog on the speaker queue
- 21:18:32 [jamesn]
- JOC: wanted to frame the discussion. For me there are a lot of issues in this. One of the reasonds aria10 came to our attention is places where it is not possible to use alt
- 21:18:40 [AWK]
- ack adam
- 21:18:40 [Joshue108]
- ack adam
- 21:18:45 [Joshue108]
- Zakim, mute me
- 21:18:45 [Zakim]
- Joshue should now be muted
- 21:19:10 [jamesn]
- AS: Q? Is tools not supporting aria-labelledby only an issue for images or is it for everything
- 21:19:34 [jamesn]
- KHS: It is not supported in general. It is s a limited set oif configurations today
- 21:19:54 [jamesn]
- KHS: what we want to do is support aria but without dropiing support for other things
- 21:19:56 [Joshue108]
- +q
- 21:20:00 [Joshue108]
- ack ryla
- 21:20:11 [jamesn]
- KHS: want to continue using alt along with aria-label and aria-labelledby
- 21:20:19 [jamesn]
- KHS: perhaps dropping in the future
- 21:20:21 [jamesn]
- q?
- 21:20:24 [jamesn]
- q+
- 21:20:40 [AWK]
- ack ryla
- 21:21:02 [jamesn]
- AS: accoridng to that should we also consider for other techniques
- 21:21:27 [AWK]
- ack josh
- 21:21:29 [jamesn]
- AWK: interesting question and a large can of worms
- 21:22:29 [AWK]
- ack james
- 21:22:31 [Joshue108]
- Zakim, mute me
- 21:22:31 [Zakim]
- Joshue should now be muted
- 21:22:32 [jamesn]
- JOC: really all should try to rememebr that one of the reasons we are habving this discussion is want to be able to expand beyond screen reader use. We are in a fuzzy area with poor accessibility support for other than screen readers. Need a little bit of leeway for this discussion
- 21:22:54 [Joshue108]
- s/habving/having
- 21:23:46 [Joshue108]
- AWK: To add to Joshs framing, is we are trying to figure out the classic a11y support question
- 21:23:47 [Ryladog]
- q=
- 21:23:50 [jamesn]
- AWK: key question is the classic accessibility support question. When is a technology sufficientlyready?
- 21:23:55 [Ryladog]
- q+
- 21:24:11 [jamesn]
- AWK: easy when you have something that works everywhere all the time
- 21:24:52 [jamesn]
- AWK: NVDA have indiciated that they will have fixes by their may realease on IE.
- 21:25:07 [Joshue108]
- s/indiciated/indicated
- 21:25:24 [Joshue108]
- s/realease/release
- 21:25:31 [jamesn]
- AWK: if we put the same level of thought to some things we miught be suprised at the level of support we see
- 21:25:43 [Joshue108]
- Zakim, queue?
- 21:25:43 [Zakim]
- I see Ryladog on the speaker queue
- 21:25:53 [Joshue108]
- s/miught/might
- 21:25:56 [jamesn]
- AWK: part of the reason that the E&O WG suggested we provide strong cautionary statements
- 21:26:38 [jamesn]
- AWK: there is a question about how technoligy gets built - if folks want to experiment then they can
- 21:26:42 [Joshue108]
- ack ryla
- 21:26:56 [Joshue108]
- s/technoligy/technology
- 21:27:14 [jamesn]
- KHS: I agree we want to pus the aoption of aria. I believe we can't do this at the expense of basic access
- 21:27:34 [jamesn]
- KHS: I believe we should be cocerned about accessibility support
- 21:28:13 [Joshue108]
- s/cocerned/concerned
- 21:28:20 [Joshue108]
- s/aoption/adoption
- 21:28:21 [jamesn]
- q+ to ask where the support isn't there?
- 21:28:25 [AWK]
- q+
- 21:28:39 [jamesn]
- KHS: this is a very basic accessi bility sompoonent
- 21:28:43 [Loretta]
- q+ to disagree that this kills alt
- 21:28:53 [AWK]
- ack james
- 21:28:53 [Zakim]
- jamesn, you wanted to ask where the support isn't there?
- 21:29:08 [Joshue108]
- +q I also disagree with this killing alt
- 21:29:16 [Joshue108]
- q+ I also disagree with this killing alt
- 21:29:33 [Joshue108]
- JN: Where else is support lacking?
- 21:29:59 [jamesn]
- KHS: going to be doing a hackathon at CSUN
- 21:30:10 [Joshue108]
- JN: I'm still not hearing specifics
- 21:30:34 [Jon_Avila]
- I can speak
- 21:30:39 [Joshue108]
- JN: So, are people complaining? Regarding SRs, I understand alt not being displayed with images off.
- 21:30:48 [AWK]
- Zakim, queue?
- 21:30:48 [Zakim]
- I see AWK, Loretta on the speaker queue
- 21:30:49 [Joshue108]
- JN: Aside from that where is support lacking?
- 21:30:51 [Joshue108]
- ack awk
- 21:31:22 [jamesn]
- AWK: one fo the tings that is worth thinking about too is are there uses of web technolofy where there is very solid support.
- 21:31:27 [Joshue108]
- q+ to say I also disagree with this killing alt
- 21:31:42 [jamesn]
- AWK: for example when creating a mobile application on iOS or Android - the support seems very very solid
- 21:32:12 [Joshue108]
- s/technolofy/technology
- 21:32:14 [jamesn]
- AWK: some issues with IE10 + JAWS13 - but later versions of jAWS seem to be doing better
- 21:32:22 [Joshue108]
- s/fo the tings/of the things
- 21:32:30 [Ryladog]
- Related to someones comment that we SHOULDNT be worried about accessibility support, working group is tracking the accessibility support status of techniques, which is not an appropriate expectation to be setting." I think we absolutly *do* need to do this - it is why we update the techniques/understanding as new technologies are coming on board. If we do it for technologies - that means we include OS/UA/and*AT*.
- 21:32:44 [jamesn]
- AWK: KHS comment that is it the role of the WG to be tracking accessibility support. My concern is that it is a tremendous amount of work to do that
- 21:32:59 [Joshue108]
- +1 to Ryladog
- 21:33:16 [jamesn]
- AWK: developers should be paying attention to accessibility support on their project and to make compiance statement based on that
- 21:33:19 [jamesn]
- q+
- 21:33:44 [jamesn]
- AWK: may be a better use of our time to encourgae developers to make wise decisions
- 21:34:04 [Joshue108]
- s/encourgae/encourage
- 21:34:09 [AWK]
- ack loretta
- 21:34:09 [Zakim]
- Loretta, you wanted to disagree that this kills alt
- 21:34:14 [jamesn]
- KHS: why don't we just leave stuff alone rather than update stuff.
- 21:34:25 [jamesn]
- LGR: we generally don't update stuff like this
- 21:35:17 [jamesn]
- KHS: if we release something tomorrow that does not require alt will some people not have to pay to upgrade?
- 21:35:18 [Joshue108]
- ack me
- 21:35:19 [Zakim]
- Joshue, you wanted to say I also disagree with this killing alt
- 21:35:26 [Joshue108]
- ack lor
- 21:35:31 [Zakim]
- -James_Nurthen
- 21:36:09 [Zakim]
- +James_Nurthen
- 21:36:51 [AWK]
- Loretta and Josh say that they don't think that this is about killing alt
- 21:36:53 [jamesn]
- LGR & JOC: want to say that we are not killing alt
- 21:37:26 [jamesn]
- JOC: may be cases where aria is a better solution and alt is not possible
- 21:38:19 [jamesn]
- JOC: user agent support. Something we should be doing but who is going to do it. The accessibility support DB from Shadi may do some of this work. Once that is there it is an option which may work
- 21:38:48 [jamesn]
- KHS: agree that i don't see people killing alt
- 21:39:08 [AWK]
- Zakim, queue?
- 21:39:08 [Zakim]
- I see jamesn on the speaker queue
- 21:39:10 [jamesn]
- KHS: people being left behind bothers me
- 21:39:15 [AWK]
- Ack james
- 21:39:32 [Joshue108]
- JN: My aim is to ensure that people aren't penalised if they have done things that work.
- 21:40:18 [Joshue108]
- JN: Its more important to make the failure work - I'd be happy if something doesn't fail if they have provided an accessible name, without provision of a positive technique.
- 21:40:46 [Joshue108]
- Zakim, queue?
- 21:40:46 [Zakim]
- I see no one on the speaker queue
- 21:40:50 [Joshue108]
- Zakim, mute me
- 21:40:50 [Zakim]
- Joshue should now be muted
- 21:41:28 [jamesn]
- AWK: <reads Stefan Schnabel comments>
- 21:41:43 [Joshue108]
- ack me
- 21:42:47 [jamesn]
- LGR: I think Stefan is arguing that we should be allowing aria and not casting something in stone which would obstruct this
- 21:43:03 [Joshue108]
- JN: Yes
- 21:43:14 [Joshue108]
- JN: @alt is still required in HTML.
- 21:43:40 [jamesn]
- AWK: validating for WCAG is a differnt check
- 21:43:45 [kerstin_probiesch]
- zakim, unmute me
- 21:43:45 [Zakim]
- kerstin_probiesch should no longer be muted
- 21:44:01 [Joshue108]
- Zakim, mute me
- 21:44:01 [Zakim]
- Joshue should now be muted
- 21:44:02 [Zakim]
- -adam_solomon
- 21:44:04 [jamesn]
- AWK: kerstin's comment is that aria is a good thing and the price here is too high
- 21:45:21 [jamesn]
- KP: did some screen reader testing today with NVDA + IE11 and support not there
- 21:45:39 [jamesn]
- AWK: NVDA + IE is not a very common use case
- 21:45:51 [jamesn]
- AWK: Jamie stated they will have this fixed by May
- 21:46:11 [kerstin_probiesch]
- zakim, mute me
- 21:46:11 [Zakim]
- kerstin_probiesch should now be muted
- 21:46:26 [jamesn]
- AWK: if you say should it means doesn't have to
- 21:46:33 [Joshue108]
- zakim, mute me
- 21:46:33 [Zakim]
- Joshue was already muted, Joshue108
- 21:47:02 [Joshue108]
- zakim, queue?
- 21:47:02 [Zakim]
- I see no one on the speaker queue
- 21:47:08 [jamesn]
- KA: it is the "in addition to" instead of "instead of"
- 21:47:31 [jamesn]
- KA: if i were to rewite I would change the word should
- 21:47:51 [jamesn]
- AWK: Alastair is suggesting being more conservative
- 21:48:27 [jamesn]
- AWK: Sailesh also in support of option 1 - requiring alt eith minor edits
- 21:48:56 [jamesn]
- AWK: answers to questions
- 21:49:03 [jamesn]
- AWK: point 1 - no it doesn't
- 21:49:17 [jamesn]
- AWK: point 2 - agree this seems to need changing
- 21:49:28 [jamesn]
- AWK: point 3 - find that confusing
- 21:49:45 [jamesn]
- LGR: 2 parts. Is there accessibility support or is there not
- 21:50:10 [jamesn]
- LGR: I understand the motivation to explain what the WG is thinking but should keep the WG out of the techniques
- 21:50:33 [jamesn]
- LGR: discussion about a11y support belongs in the UA notes
- 21:51:00 [jamesn]
- LGR: if we want to require alt on the elements which support alt then we may want to break this in half
- 21:51:18 [jamesn]
- LGR: should perhaps put more explanation about these in here
- 21:51:35 [Joshue108]
- +q
- 21:51:48 [jamesn]
- LGR: if we do that then labelledby with an image becomes advisroy becuase we are saying it is not sufficient
- 21:52:10 [jamesn]
- LGR: even if we look at the current state of things there are people with older versions
- 21:52:22 [jamesn]
- KHS: this is vital
- 21:52:35 [jamesn]
- LGR: i would hope all the wcag techniques are vital
- 21:53:01 [jamesn]
- LGR: here there is an easy alternative and others may not have them
- 21:53:30 [jamesn]
- LGR: If we say they must provide alt then authors will not provide aria-labelledby as there is no point in them doing so
- 21:53:34 [Joshue108]
- ack me
- 21:53:40 [AWK]
- Zakim, queue?
- 21:53:40 [Zakim]
- I see no one on the speaker queue
- 21:54:38 [Ryladog]
- q+
- 21:54:48 [jamesn]
- JOC: I am very concerned about things I see in my day job. Very concerned that some of the good stuff I see aria can do gets put into advisroy. I would sit on the side of taking a chance with this. I would try to push to support aria. Maybe not in this iteration
- 21:54:49 [Joshue108]
- ack ryla
- 21:55:07 [jamesn]
- KHS: I have no interest in not supporting aria but want to additionaly require alt
- 21:55:12 [Joshue108]
- s/advisroy/advisory
- 21:55:22 [jamesn]
- LGR: don't need to. Doesn't improve accessibility
- 21:55:28 [Joshue108]
- Zakim, mute me
- 21:55:28 [Zakim]
- Joshue should now be muted
- 21:55:41 [jamesn]
- KHS: allows the adoption of aria and allows ackwards compatibiolity
- 21:56:25 [Joshue108]
- s/ackwards compatibiolity/backwards compatibility
- 21:56:28 [AWK]
- q+
- 21:56:38 [Joshue108]
- ack awk
- 21:56:45 [Loretta]
- q+
- 21:57:16 [Ryladog]
- q+
- 21:57:27 [jamesn]
- AWK: would agree that having both doesn't increase accessibility. Will make AT vendors look and see that they don't need to pay attention to aria-labelledby as there is always alt
- 21:57:56 [Ryladog]
- If the understanding by *all* is that ALT will be retired than tool makeers and devlopers can build their stuff appropriately
- 21:58:26 [jamesn]
- AWK: someone that is creating a site or ann application is supposed to do their due dilignece. May mean allowing poieple to do things we are not thrilled about tofday
- 21:58:41 [Joshue108]
- s/tofday/today
- 21:59:05 [jamesn]
- LGR: would be willing to go down a 2 use cases
- 21:59:07 [jamesn]
- q+
- 21:59:13 [Joshue108]
- s/dilignece/diligence
- 21:59:15 [Joshue108]
- ack lor
- 21:59:25 [Joshue108]
- s/poieple/people
- 21:59:34 [Joshue108]
- s/ann/an
- 21:59:39 [Joshue108]
- ack ryla
- 21:59:42 [jamesn]
- LGR: would really like to modfy the failure such that aria-labelledby is ok providied it is accessibility supported
- 21:59:59 [jamesn]
- KHS: leaves door open.
- 22:00:03 [Joshue108]
- s/modfy/modify
- 22:00:13 [Joshue108]
- s/providied/provided
- 22:00:24 [Loretta]
- q+
- 22:00:31 [jamesn]
- KHS: the failure - don't agree with the fact that AT vendors will not implement things if we make it very clear that tthe requirement for alt will be removed
- 22:00:36 [AWK]
- ack james
- 22:00:42 [Joshue108]
- JN: I think the failure has to be changed.
- 22:01:14 [Joshue108]
- JN: For in intranet only app, or a packaged solution, why would they have a failure when their configurations are supported?
- 22:01:20 [Joshue108]
- RD: It wouldn't be
- 22:01:22 [Joshue108]
- JN: Sorry
- 22:01:34 [Joshue108]
- RD: How is a tool going to be able to determine that?
- 22:01:59 [Joshue108]
- JN: I don't understand, this is a failure. In my job, we sell a product, and will only support certain configurations.
- 22:02:24 [Joshue108]
- JN: If all platforms we support, and our clients say you fail this failure, and you fail WCAG?
- 22:02:30 [AWK]
- Zakim, queue?
- 22:02:30 [Zakim]
- I see Loretta on the speaker queue
- 22:02:43 [AWK]
- ack lor
- 22:02:45 [Joshue108]
- RD: Right, we need a safety valve for where it isn't a controlled environment
- 22:02:46 [jamesn]
- KHS: I want to make sure there is a safety valve for when things aren't in a controlled environemnt
- 22:02:49 [Joshue108]
- RD: How can we do that?
- 22:03:20 [Joshue108]
- Zakim, queue?
- 22:03:20 [Zakim]
- I see no one on the speaker queue
- 22:03:23 [jamesn]
- LGR: want to add a check i nthe failure to make sure that something is accessibility supported
- 22:03:32 [Joshue108]
- s/environemnt/environment
- 22:03:41 [Joshue108]
- s/i nthe/in the
- 22:04:08 [Joshue108]
- JN: Do you recall I sent a proposal for this, AWK?
- 22:04:11 [Joshue108]
- AWK: No
- 22:04:14 [Joshue108]
- JN: I'll have a look
- 22:04:28 [Joshue108]
- JN: It's what Loretta is suggesting
- 22:04:34 [jamesn]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/F65_Round_2#Example_1:_Missing_alt_text
- 22:04:50 [Joshue108]
- JN: It's similar to what Loretta is suggesting
- 22:05:08 [Joshue108]
- +q
- 22:05:27 [Joshue108]
- ack me
- 22:05:29 [jamesn]
- LGR: having nothing about labelledby in a positive way for these elements
- 22:05:34 [Joshue108]
- -q
- 22:06:05 [Joshue108]
- +q to say being very cautious with our techs and failures may be the way to crack this
- 22:06:37 [Joshue108]
- RD: Support and access to the a11y API has to be considered.
- 22:06:42 [Joshue108]
- JN: Yes
- 22:07:10 [Joshue108]
- JN: This is failure, if this is being shown to the A11y API, then it's not a failure!
- 22:07:12 [Joshue108]
- AWK: Right
- 22:07:55 [Joshue108]
- LGR: Failure were meant to highlight common things people were doing wrong
- 22:08:01 [Joshue108]
- LGR: Not capture everything
- 22:08:12 [Joshue108]
- ack me
- 22:08:12 [Zakim]
- Joshue, you wanted to say being very cautious with our techs and failures may be the way to crack this
- 22:09:11 [Loretta]
- Looking at https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Aria-Edit:_F65:_Failure_of_Success_Criterion_1.1.1_due_to_omitting_the_alt_attribute_on_img_elements,_area_elements,_and_input_elements_of_type_image#Description, I propose change steps 1, 2, and 4 to something like:
- 22:09:26 [jamesn]
- JOC: people will say we can only use wcag technqieus perhaps something we want to break
- 22:09:44 [jamesn]
- JOC: should we be erring on extreme caution or should we be pushing the envelope a bit
- 22:09:46 [Joshue108]
- Zakim, queue?
- 22:09:46 [Zakim]
- I see no one on the speaker queue
- 22:09:55 [Loretta]
- 1. check if aria-labelledby referencences one or more id elements in the page AND that aria-labelledby is accessibility supported for the target audience
- 22:10:13 [Joshue108]
- s/referencences/references
- 22:10:42 [Joshue108]
- ack me
- 22:10:44 [jamesn]
- AWK: mandate as part of the procedure step that this is accessibility supported
- 22:11:19 [jamesn]
- LGR: not just view the API
- 22:11:34 [jamesn]
- KHS: also needs to be explanation in the top part as to why this is necessary
- 22:11:49 [AWK]
- Loretta's suggestion is on ARIA10
- 22:12:06 [jamesn]
- LGR: accessibility support implies that you undersand waht versions of browsers and what AT your target audience is using
- 22:12:22 [jamesn]
- LGR: this goes back to JN example where they know the answers to these questions
- 22:12:41 [jamesn]
- KHS: then Katie's concern that in the wild west these answers may not be known
- 22:13:01 [kerstin_probiesch]
- and we should add a note about what "target audience" means: intranet, closed environments
- 22:13:02 [jamesn]
- q+
- 22:13:21 [Jon_Avila]
- q+
- 22:13:28 [Joshue108]
- JN: Is this a slippy slope?
- 22:13:34 [Joshue108]
- JN: Is it a can of worms?
- 22:13:40 [Joshue108]
- LGR: Yes
- 22:13:52 [Joshue108]
- JN: Why do this in this case but not in others?
- 22:14:05 [Joshue108]
- LGR: Do we have failures for those situations?
- 22:14:14 [Joshue108]
- LGR: But is there a documented failure?
- 22:14:18 [Joshue108]
- JN: I think there is
- 22:14:30 [Joshue108]
- <discussion on variou failures>
- 22:14:43 [Joshue108]
- LGR: Maybe we need to look at modification to failures.
- 22:14:54 [Jon_Avila]
- I don't see any 1.3.1 failures for label of label or title
- 22:14:58 [AWK]
- ack james
- 22:15:01 [AWK]
- ack jon
- 22:15:13 [jamesn]
- JA: wanted to bring up title being allowed
- 22:15:24 [jamesn]
- JA: wanted to know if i am the only one concerned
- 22:15:26 [Loretta]
- q+
- 22:15:30 [jamesn]
- q+
- 22:15:41 [Loretta]
- q-
- 22:15:57 [jamesn]
- JOC: it is one of the things that it is looked at
- 22:16:21 [Joshue108]
- JN: It's in the API mappings doc etc
- 22:16:30 [Joshue108]
- JN: Its defined in teh HTML5 API doc
- 22:16:43 [Joshue108]
- s/teh/the
- 22:17:01 [Joshue108]
- JA: But its in an advisory tech, is that valid?
- 22:17:19 [Joshue108]
- JN: I don't care about validity, but am more concerend about a11y support
- 22:17:31 [jamesn]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/html-aapi/#img-element
- 22:18:13 [Joshue108]
- JOC: @title could come back better support in VoiceOver
- 22:18:46 [Joshue108]
- Zakim, mute me
- 22:18:46 [Zakim]
- Joshue should now be muted
- 22:18:53 [Loretta]
- q+
- 22:18:59 [jamesn]
- AWK: are we getting to a spot where we can agree
- 22:19:30 [jamesn]
- AWK: if the procedure reinforces that a11y support necessary then that may be satisfactoy
- 22:19:52 [Joshue108]
- s/satisfactoy/satisfactory
- 22:20:04 [jamesn]
- LGR: my comments were for F65
- 22:20:15 [AWK]
- s/Loretta's suggestion is on ARIA10/Loretta's suggestion is on F65
- 22:20:43 [Joshue108]
- ACTION: Loretta to draft changes to F65 and changes to ARIA 10 on elements that have @alt
- 22:20:43 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-238 - Draft changes to f65 and changes to aria 10 on elements that have @alt [on Loretta Guarino Reid - due 2014-02-27].
- 22:20:44 [Ryladog]
- +1
- 22:20:46 [jamesn]
- LGR: wanted to make a proposal and volunteer to make these changes to F65 and ARIA10 so we can survey them on Tuesday
- 22:21:40 [jamesn]
- AWK: going to have to do that. In terms of if we are trying to hit the CSUN schedule and we can't come to a resoiluton on this. What do we do then?
- 22:21:56 [Joshue108]
- s/resoiluton/resolution
- 22:22:21 [Ryladog]
- q=
- 22:22:26 [Ryladog]
- Q+
- 22:22:29 [Ryladog]
- Q+
- 22:22:30 [jamesn]
- AWK: I feel like there is a lot of value in regular techniques. Don't want to turn this into a 2 year technqieus cycle. Want to do somnething to get this out by CSUN. perhaps that means pulling the technqiues
- 22:22:35 [Ryladog]
- q+
- 22:22:46 [Joshue108]
- ack james
- 22:22:53 [jamesn]
- AWK: we can debate this until a11y support improves
- 22:23:06 [Joshue108]
- JN: I think a11y support is there in new versions.
- 22:23:20 [Joshue108]
- JN: I don't now what 'until a11y support improves'
- 22:23:25 [Joshue108]
- ack lor
- 22:23:54 [Joshue108]
- LGR: I don't think we can pull F65
- 22:24:00 [Joshue108]
- JN: Do you mean pulling the changes?
- 22:24:04 [jamesn]
- LGR: I don't think we can pull F65 without notice but could remove ARIA10
- 22:24:07 [Joshue108]
- LGR: No, dropping the tech
- 22:24:18 [Joshue108]
- LGR: We can't do that without warning
- 22:24:37 [Joshue108]
- ack ryla
- 22:24:39 [jamesn]
- AWK: there may be some procedural steps that need to be taken
- 22:24:57 [jamesn]
- KHS: have faith in what LGR is proposing
- 22:25:00 [jamesn]
- :)
- 22:25:04 [kerstin_probiesch]
- +1
- 22:25:37 [Joshue108]
- Zakim
- 22:25:44 [Joshue108]
- Zakim, queue?
- 22:25:44 [Zakim]
- I see no one on the speaker queue
- 22:25:51 [jamesn]
- AWK: are we going in a direction that sounds good
- 22:25:56 [jamesn]
- yes
- 22:25:56 [Joshue108]
- +1 from me
- 22:26:10 [Joshue108]
- thanks loretta
- 22:26:19 [Joshue108]
- ack me
- 22:26:34 [kerstin_probiesch]
- thanks Loretta
- 22:26:46 [jamesn]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 22:26:46 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/20-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn
- 22:26:46 [Zakim]
- -Joshue
- 22:26:47 [kerstin_probiesch]
- bye
- 22:26:47 [Zakim]
- -Katie_Haritos-Shea
- 22:26:49 [Zakim]
- -Jon_Avila
- 22:26:52 [Zakim]
- -Kathleen
- 22:26:53 [Zakim]
- -James_Nurthen
- 22:26:55 [Zakim]
- -Marc_Johlic
- 22:26:56 [Zakim]
- -Loretta
- 22:27:07 [AWK]
- RRSAgent, set logs public
- 22:27:18 [Zakim]
- -AWK
- 22:27:22 [Zakim]
- -kerstin_probiesch
- 22:27:24 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
- 22:27:24 [Zakim]
- Attendees were +1.617.766.aaaa, Katie_Haritos-Shea, +1.910.278.aabb, James_Nurthen, Joshue, AWK, Kathleen, Loretta, +1.703.862.aacc, Marc_Johlic, kerstin_probiesch, Jon_Avila,
- 22:27:24 [Zakim]
- ... adam_solomon