21:56:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #indie-ui
21:56:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/19-indie-ui-irc
21:56:36 <jasonjgw> jasonjgw has joined #indie-ui
21:56:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
21:56:36 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #indie-ui
21:56:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be INDIE
21:56:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_Indie()5:00PM already started
21:56:39 <trackbot> Meeting: Independent User Interface Task Force Teleconference
21:56:39 <trackbot> Date: 19 February 2014
21:56:45 <janina> agenda?
21:56:52 <janina> Meeting: IndieUI Task Force Teleconference
21:56:52 <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka
21:56:52 <janina> agenda+ preview agenda with items from two minutes
21:56:52 <janina> agenda+ Shall we plan a F2F in April?
21:56:52 <janina> agenda+ Editor's Report
21:56:54 <janina> agenda+ Events Implementation Review
21:56:57 <janina> agenda+ Prototype polyfills
21:56:59 <janina> Agenda+ Issues with composite controls
21:57:02 <janina> agenda+ Events Requirements Status & Actions
21:57:04 <janina> agenda+ Events Testing Update
21:57:07 <janina> agenda+ User Context Update; FPWD Criteria Discussion
21:57:09 <janina> agenda+ User Context Issues & Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/products/3
21:57:12 <janina> agenda+ Events Issues & Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/products/2
21:57:15 <janina> agenda+ Scribe for our Next Teleconference
21:57:18 <janina> agenda+ Be Done
21:57:24 <Zakim> +??P3
21:57:30 <janina> zakim, ??P3 is me
21:57:30 <Zakim> +janina; got it
21:57:47 <jasonjgw> zakim, ??p1 is me
21:57:47 <Zakim> I already had ??P1 as Judy, jasonjgw
21:57:52 <Zakim> +??P4
21:58:23 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
21:58:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P2, janina, ??P4
21:58:36 <jasonjgw> zakim, ??p2 is me
21:58:36 <Zakim> +jasonjgw; got it
21:58:44 <kurosawa> Zakim, ??p4 is me
21:58:44 <Zakim> +kurosawa; got it
21:59:02 <janina> regrets: Andy
21:59:18 <janina> regrets: Rich_Simpson, Andy_Heath
22:02:14 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea
22:02:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #indie-ui
22:02:26 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #indie-ui
22:02:39 <Zakim> +Cooper
22:03:15 <Zakim> +James_Craig
22:04:16 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
22:04:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: Rich
22:05:16 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
22:05:16 <Zakim> agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina]
22:05:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> agenda?
22:06:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, next item
22:06:30 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Shall we plan a F2F in April?" taken up [from janina]
22:06:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: do we want to try to have a face to face?
22:07:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: the HTML working from is meeting at eBay 9, 10 as well webapps
22:07:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: I will just participate in the web apps face to face directly
22:08:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: shadow dom and other features are in there
22:08:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: that may be the second best thing
22:08:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: we could overlap HTML
22:08:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: we don't have a group of 50 people
22:09:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, next item
22:09:05 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Editor's Report" taken up [from janina]
22:09:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: I have not made any edits since them. The editors issues we need to discuss
22:09:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, next item
22:09:35 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, richardschwerdtfeger
22:09:46 <janina> zakim, close item 3
22:09:46 <Zakim> agendum 3, Editor's Report, closed
22:09:47 <Zakim> I see 10 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:09:47 <Zakim> 4. Events Implementation Review [from janina]
22:10:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: there is a time out thing
22:10:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: Is this events implementation review item that you added for me?
22:10:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: this is more what implementations we can expect
22:11:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: we can expect one from Apple. What about Chrome and Firefox?
22:11:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: I think Microsoft was looking to see some implementation first
22:12:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: Microsoft is really looking for activity on the implementation not that it all be done first.
22:12:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, next item
22:12:48 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Events Implementation Review" taken up [from janina]
22:13:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, next item
22:13:10 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, richardschwerdtfeger
22:13:22 <Zakim> -kurosawa
22:13:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> Agendum 4 , close item 4
22:13:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, close item 4
22:13:35 <Zakim> agendum 4, Events Implementation Review, closed
22:13:36 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:13:36 <Zakim> 5. Prototype polyfills [from janina]
22:13:47 <jcraig> zakim, next item
22:13:47 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Prototype polyfills" taken up [from janina]
22:14:13 <Zakim> +??P0
22:14:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: So to give a summary on a JavaScript polyfills. If you launch a date picker this is something you can add to a text field.
22:15:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: with polyfills you add script to your page that looks for elements with input type="date" and replace it with with widget in javascript, etc. that you fill in.
22:15:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: when implementation catch up then the polyfill can go away
22:16:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: one of the ways we can prototype indie ui is to write a polyfill to show people how Indie UI would work with processing for keyboard and mouse input
22:16:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: This is on my list.
22:17:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: jason kiss may be interested.
22:17:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> katie: he would be cool
22:17:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: this will be backward compatible for older browsers
22:18:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: we can find holes in the spec. in the process
22:18:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: this makes sense for older browsers
22:19:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: the example I was thinking of with scroll requests is they have to listen for mouse down, up, key up, key down, etc. Most people do not do scrolling well.
22:19:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: Hans Hillen might be a good candidate
22:20:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: this is a good time for Jason Kiss
22:20:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: janina send Jason an invite
22:20:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-77 - Send jason an invite [on Janina Sajka - due 2014-02-26].
22:21:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Rich contact Hans Hillen to participate in polyfill work for Indie UI
22:21:10 <trackbot> 'Rich' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., rschwer, rsimpson3).
22:21:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: RichS contact Hans Hillen to participate in polyfill work for Indie UI
22:21:27 <trackbot> Error finding 'RichS'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/users>.
22:21:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: richs contact Hans Hillen to participate in polyfill work for Indie UI
22:21:40 <trackbot> Error finding 'richs'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/users>.
22:21:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: schwer contact Hans Hillen to participate in polyfill work for Indie UI
22:21:46 <trackbot> Error finding 'schwer'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/users>.
22:22:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, next item
22:22:23 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Issues with composite controls" taken up [from janina]
22:23:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: this is the problem I found in writing a polyfill. I mentioned in the scroll request that one action could cause a scroll request. key press, mouse events, etc.
22:23:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: I was thinking how this would work for an ARIA slider
22:23:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: something like increment or decrement
22:24:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: if you had an aria slider we could make a value change request to work with screen readers. this is difficult for a pointing device
22:24:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: there would need to be a container and a sub element that would act like a slider thumb. This would be like a move request.
22:25:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: this would be like a move on a thumb, etc.
22:25:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: this makes adoption a bit weird and certainly more complex than we had planned.
22:26:08 <janina> q?
22:26:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: even for a custom slider more work would be required
22:26:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: this was not clear to me whether this is an interim issue.
22:27:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: would any implementation pick up any of this.
22:27:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: this would certainly be a permanent problem.
22:27:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: you could take a click and a scroll
22:28:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: the view on a slide is presumably 2 inches wide, 1/2 inch tall with a slider thumb within it
22:28:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: you would pick a pixel difference on the slider
22:28:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
22:29:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: I wonder if there is a way to associate a value change request with this. You would need to specify what is the operable control
22:29:44 <Zakim> -kurosawa
22:29:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: I wonder if you could respecify the value change request
22:30:24 <Zakim> +??P0
22:30:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: say you have the slider is all the way to the left and you want to go all the way to the right.
22:31:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: it would be the controller
22:31:24 <janina> ack r
22:32:00 <janina> q+
22:32:22 <jasonjgw> Rich understands the problem as being that the party that generates the event doesn't generate the value. He suggests the information about the correspondence between low-level events (mouse movements for example) and changes in value could be specified on registration.
22:33:11 <jasonjgw> Rich notes that data haven't been provided to the ua to specify when to notify the application of the value change.
22:34:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
22:34:37 <janina> ack j
22:35:33 <jasonjgw> Rich suggests we need to provide enough information to the ua for it to make a determination.
22:36:42 <jasonjgw> Rich would be willing to postpone last call for this to be solved.
22:36:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: Rich
22:37:23 <jcraig> action: jcraig to add editorial note to valuechangerequest mentioning the slider/thumb composite widget problem and pixel interface event reconciliation
22:37:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-78 - Add editorial note to valuechangerequest mentioning the slider/thumb composite widget problem and pixel interface event reconciliation [on James Craig - due 2014-02-26].
22:37:47 <jasonjgw> Rich: we don't know how much of a value change to put in as information about the range, the number of pixels required, etc., isn't provided.
22:38:45 <jcraig> q+
22:39:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: the size of the control if it is different if it is touch
22:39:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: the correspondence between pixel location and values of the control
22:40:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> katie: does this require, if you are using touch to use two fingers?
22:40:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: I don't see why
22:40:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> katie: I don't want to have to do more than one thing at a time
22:40:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: let me explain my original composite solution now that we have a better grasp
22:41:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: If you have a div that are called views for everything and we have roles of sliders. The graphical element would represent the slider thumb and then behind it you have the tracker element
22:42:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: for page up, page down home and end send value requests that responds to these
22:42:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: the way these composite elements that operate inside the thumb you would have a general move action.
22:43:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: the web application can then measure the pixel differences and reconcile the changes up the chain to the value change request.
22:43:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: it is much better than what is out there now. It is also not controllable with AT
22:43:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
22:43:59 <jcraig> ack k
22:44:01 <jcraig> ack j
22:44:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: any more comments or questions?
22:44:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: I am still wondering if it is still possible to provide the connections to the sub element
22:45:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: we just need to figure out the how
22:45:55 <Zakim> -kurosawa
22:46:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> katie: so, what is the mechanism whereby the functionality would determine whereby the software would do the calculation
22:46:16 <Zakim> +??P0
22:46:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: you mean a general move request?
22:46:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> katie: how is it determining this?
22:47:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: I don't think landscape or portrait is relevant here
22:47:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: if you had I a high pixel density screen ...  a retina display, etc.
22:47:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
22:48:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, next item
22:48:26 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Events Requirements Status & Actions" taken up [from janina]
22:48:37 <jcraig> s/display, etc./display, etc. It would still resolved to CSS pixels, not device pixels./
22:48:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: I suspect in advance we are touching base.
22:49:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> MichaelC: I have not done anything on this and won't do anything on this until after CSUN
22:49:24 <jcraig> s/resolved/resolve/
22:49:39 <MichaelC> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-requirements.html IndieUI Requirements
22:50:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> MichaelC: as a reminder, what I did was I put events and user context into one document. they are separate sections. ideally every requirement should be supported by a use case or scenario
22:50:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> MichaelC: I am not all the way done yet
22:51:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> MichaelC: It is a question whether we need to move some to a general accessibility requirements doc.
22:51:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> MichaelC: this is all stuff we should be doing but we have a good start
22:51:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: you thought we were thin on use cases?
22:51:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> MichaelC: we don't have use cases for everything
22:52:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> MichaelC: not all requirements are backed up by use cases
22:52:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: this problem that james has identified for us will keep us from last call for now
22:52:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: this buys us some more time
22:53:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: an argument for polyfills I would have thought
22:53:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: unfortunately, there is not a good way to do an accessbility api with a polyfill
22:53:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, next item
22:53:51 <Zakim> agendum 8. "Events Testing Update" taken up [from janina]
22:53:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: anything else?
22:54:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: I think not. last I call there was a discussion among several people whether the w3c test structure was going to do it.
22:54:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: the basis of a test suite across implementations was as far as we got.
22:55:11 <kurosawa> q+
22:55:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: note: polyfills will not help with the testing as it shows it would work and to help adoption.
22:55:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: if one of the things we tested - element supported actions. it would mask the fact that the implementation was lacking
22:55:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
22:56:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: we need them to do it natively
22:56:17 <janina> q?
22:56:27 <janina> ack k
22:56:40 <kurosawa> http://codedefect.com/ttwf-sz-belem/#/1/5
22:57:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> kurosawa: according to technical material. i think this is not testable.
22:57:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: are you asking what statements are testable and not testable?
22:57:33 <kurosawa> Mapping physical events to Indie UI events are informative. so they are not testable.
22:57:51 <jcraig> Element IDL extended to include an actions attribute
22:57:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: the element IDL would be extended to include the actions attribute
22:58:06 <jcraig> <div ui-actions="move">
22:59:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: there are certainly elements that can be automatable. Do you have specific concerns for things that are not testable?
23:00:04 <jcraig> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-events.html#actions
23:00:15 <jcraig> partial interface Element {
23:00:15 <jcraig>     readonly    attribute DOMTokenList uiactions;
23:00:16 <jcraig> };
23:00:31 <kurosawa> I understand uiaction is testable
23:00:50 <jcraig> [Constructor(DOMString typeArg, optional UIRequestEventInit dictUIRequestEventInit)]
23:00:50 <jcraig> interface UIRequestEvent : UIEvent {
23:00:51 <jcraig>     readonly    attribute EventTarget receiver;
23:00:52 <jcraig> };
23:00:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: let me note that the next meeting is March 5.
23:01:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: I propose the following meeting will be April 2nd due to CSUN
23:01:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: there are parts that are testable
23:01:45 <Zakim> -kurosawa
23:01:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
23:02:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> janina: we appreciate all help in setting up a good test environment.
23:02:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> jcraig: we are not trying too be dismissive
23:02:28 <Zakim> -James_Craig
23:02:29 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos-Shea
23:02:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, make log public
23:02:33 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make log public', richardschwerdtfeger
23:02:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, bye
23:02:40 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were janina, jasonjgw, kurosawa, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Cooper, James_Craig, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
23:02:40 <Zakim> Zakim has left #indie-ui
23:02:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, make minutes
23:02:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make minutes
23:02:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/19-indie-ui-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
23:21:03 <jcraig> jcraig has left #indie-ui