18:00:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
18:00:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/17-aria-irc
18:00:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:00:10 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
18:00:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:00:12 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM scheduled to start now
18:00:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
18:00:13 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:00:13 <trackbot> Date: 17 February 2014
18:00:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
18:00:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
18:00:50 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has now started
18:00:57 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
18:01:40 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
18:01:44 <Zakim> + +49.322.110.8.aaaa
18:01:57 <Zakim> +??P3
18:02:09 <janina> zakim, ??P3 is me
18:02:09 <Zakim> +janina; got it
18:02:28 <Zakim> +??P4
18:02:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Feb/0021.html
18:03:02 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Stefan_Schnabel
18:03:02 <Zakim> +Stefan_Schnabel; got it
18:03:22 <Zakim> +[Apple]
18:03:49 <MichaelC> regrets+ Matt_King
18:04:00 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
18:04:17 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
18:04:42 <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the call?
18:04:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, James_Nurthen, Stefan_Schnabel, janina, Michael_Cooper, [Apple]
18:04:52 <joanie> did an agenda go out?
18:04:54 <jcraig> Zakim, Apple has jcraig
18:04:54 <Zakim> +jcraig; got it
18:06:01 <Zakim> +joanie
18:07:18 <jcraig> scribe: jcraog
18:07:33 <MichaelC> scribe: jcraig
18:07:49 <janina> sirc: janina
18:07:55 <janina> scribe: janina
18:08:26 <janina> rs: Reporting on Edupub developments
18:08:39 <janina> rs: Movembent on semantic sub team and also graphics sub team
18:09:19 <janina> s/movemeent/movement/
18:10:19 <jcraig> i
18:11:08 <MichaelC> ack me
18:11:17 <janina> topic: 1.0 doc scrubbing
18:11:40 <janina> mc: Reviewing timeline for publishing by March 13, if at all possible
18:12:02 <janina> mc: Director review must precede that. This will all be compressed
18:12:24 <janina> mc: So, all pre by March 7
18:12:40 <janina> mc: So cleanup should be this week
18:12:48 <jcraig> s/Movembent/Movement/
18:13:16 <janina> rs: So what to do, and do we need additional calls?
18:13:22 <janina> mc: some can be assigned
18:14:19 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-roadmap/ ARIA Roadmap
18:14:30 <MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/
18:14:35 <MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-primer/
18:15:04 <janina> js: Asks whether notes couldn't be published later?
18:15:06 <janina> mc: Yes
18:15:47 <janina> jc: Docs we refer to do should be permanently available
18:16:03 <janina> rs: The Road Map served its purpose. Do we need to pub?
18:16:23 <janina> mc: Started on rec track, so it raises questions: "What happened to it?"
18:16:54 <janina> mc: Might say "We're done and will not finish" and publish as notes.
18:17:02 <janina> mc: Or, we can do some editing.
18:17:09 <janina> jc: Can we mark as obsolete?
18:17:11 <janina> mc: Unsure
18:17:56 <janina> rs: As a historical document? That's what it is?
18:18:15 <janina> mc: Which is one reason for publishing as a note.
18:18:26 <janina> jc: Rather do "retired."
18:18:46 <janina> mc: Looking I see mostly notes as "retired."
18:19:14 <janina> [agreement to seek "retired" status]
18:19:59 <janina> mc: So Road Map and Primer to be marked "retired"
18:20:21 <janina> js: Notes that Authoring has new editors as of Toronto F2F
18:20:29 <jcraig> better to mark the roadmap and primer as retired than as notes, b/c as notes we'd have to clean them up again before republishing.
18:21:59 <janina> mc: Practices says "1.0," do we want to make it versionless?
18:22:01 <janina> [agreement]
18:22:40 <janina> rs: So retired means we don't need any edits?
18:22:44 <janina> mc: Believe so.
18:23:01 <janina> mc: If we edit anything, questions arise why not more, and also about process
18:24:08 <jcraig> agenda+ Ivan Herman's comment about RDF reference to URI/IRI
18:25:01 <janina> mc: Concerned about doc load
18:25:10 <janina> rs: Well, Authoring eds not in Indie
18:26:05 <janina> rs: Publish draft of Authoring?
18:26:11 <janina> mc: Not on the TR timeline
18:26:41 <janina> topic: spelling and other edits for PR docs
18:27:00 <janina> mc: inconsistency in spelling, which do we use? programing or programming etc
18:27:13 <janina> mc: How to find these issues?
18:27:59 <janina> js: Will listen for TTS errors that might indicate spelling
18:28:03 <janina> jc: Will look
18:28:07 <janina> jc: Timeline?
18:28:21 <janina> mc: Need all done by the 28th
18:28:38 <janina> mc: So read throughs done by the 24th ...
18:28:55 <janina> rs: Both docs?
18:28:57 <janina> mc: Yes
18:29:10 <janina> rs: Are hyperlinks checked?
18:29:11 <janina> mc: Yes
18:29:41 <janina> mc: Need to check referencing section -- pointers to other W3C specs. Are we up to date?
18:30:14 <janina> mc: Links aren't broken, but maybe suboptimal because of a redirect, etc
18:30:30 <janina> jc: Especially links pointing to a fragment ID
18:31:16 <janina> js: Asks about style sheet?
18:31:22 <janina> mc: W3C standard is US English
18:31:53 <janina> mc: Expect we would avoid doubled consonents, u's etc
18:33:42 <janina> js: So, beyond the W3C style guide, we simplify? Drop doubled consonants -- fewer chars is our rule ...
18:33:46 <janina> [agreement]
18:33:51 <janina> rs: Do we email these?
18:33:58 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
18:34:20 <janina> mc: Suggest keep a running set of notes and forward one doc
18:34:26 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
18:34:35 <cyns> zakim, Microsoft has me
18:34:35 <Zakim> +cyns; got it
18:35:19 <janina> mc: Please send one doc with suggested edits to list so it's archived
18:35:57 <janina> mc: Note that editorial notes are not output. Are there some that souldn't be removed? We need to address that.
18:36:25 <janina> mc: If there are some we want to keep in the final TR, we need to do something about them.
18:36:32 <janina> mc: So these need to be noted.
18:37:40 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
18:37:40 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Ivan Herman's comment about RDF reference to URI/IRI" taken up [from jcraig]
18:39:16 <janina> jc: Notes that commenter believes this is an editorial correction
18:39:28 <janina> mc: But we need to agree, and will need to flag this for the Director.
18:39:46 <janina> mc: At the least we want Shane to check this?
18:39:48 <janina> [agreement]
18:41:08 <janina> mc: Double checking for lagging comments ...
18:41:45 <janina> mc: Notes we are open for comments until March 7. Any that come late, we will need to handle urgently.
18:42:33 <janina> mc: AC can also leave comments. Any AC comments will hold up progress until we've satisfied them, or achieved Director's approval to move without resolution
18:44:09 <janina> js: Notes that AC voting has not progressed in the last several days. No new votes
18:48:31 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
18:50:07 <janina> zakim, next item
18:50:07 <Zakim> I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, janina
18:51:21 <janina> topic: Issues 411 & 406
18:51:42 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
18:51:52 <cyns_> cyns_ has joined #aria
18:51:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> Issues 411, 406 Addition of aria-description or aria-help
18:52:02 <cyns_> zakim, Microsoft has me
18:52:02 <Zakim> +cyns_; got it
18:52:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/411
18:52:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/406
18:52:24 <MichaelC> ack me
18:52:30 <janina> rs: We have only one API target, however
18:52:33 <MichaelC> zakim, mute me
18:52:33 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper should now be muted
18:53:15 <janina> rs: APIs don't distinguish help from other description
18:53:26 <janina> rs: What does osx do?
18:54:19 <janina> jc: We have AX-Help, which is like ARIA-Description
18:54:28 <janina> rs: Don't think we can have two, whatever we call it
18:54:36 <janina> jc: Agree
18:55:08 <janina> jc: Pefer to call it Help because Describedby can point to such large blocks, and we don't want that for help
18:55:41 <janina> stefan: Can we limit string length?
18:56:22 <janina> ss: Valid point
18:58:51 <janina> rs: Problem is we have aria-label for aria-labeledby
18:59:02 <janina> rs: So we'll be asked for the analog of describedby
19:00:27 <janina> cs: Notes nothing similar in UA just now, can ask
19:01:25 <janina> rs: We also need to think about precedence
19:01:36 <janina> cs: Hidden help text is not a UA pattern
19:02:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
19:02:44 <janina> cs: Are you asking for a hidden secondary text field?
19:03:59 <janina> ss: We have this concept in SAP, can be longer help about what to do with a field
19:04:15 <janina> ss: We include a kybd command to read it
19:04:42 <janina> ss: How is this different?
19:05:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
19:05:06 <janina> jc: We might have help around using upper case chars
19:05:30 <janina> rs: We started with describedby, because the ideal is that it's also visible
19:05:44 <janina> cs; Maybe we need to revisit tooltip pattern in aria
19:05:51 <janina> jc: Agree that would help
19:05:55 <janina> rs: yes
19:06:51 <joanie> q+ To mention that ATK could get a new attribute (like help) as well.
19:06:58 <janina> rs: We're currently inconsistent across the AAPIs. We need to settle on a name and a apping
19:08:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> ach richardschwerdtfeger
19:08:20 <janina> cs: Also developer text tends to get lost and out of date
19:08:36 <janina> jd: Can also make any needed change
19:08:44 <joanie> :)
19:10:09 <janina> jc: It's alsmost as describedby is a superset of what we use tooltips for
19:10:35 <janina> cs: We don't have one now, because msaa was abusing it
19:10:55 <janina> cs: On pure UA describedby is part of the name calculation
19:11:00 <janina> jc: similar here
19:11:22 <janina> jc: Maybe describedby is where the problem is
19:12:49 <janina> cs: Seems we need to spend some time thinking about help, description texts, etc
19:13:02 <jcraig> Zakim, who is being noisy?
19:13:02 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, jcraig.
19:13:12 <jcraig> Zakim, who is noisy?
19:13:29 <Zakim> jcraig, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Rich_Schwerdtfeger (30%), Stefan_Schnabel (86%)
19:13:41 <janina> ss: Concerned that attrib names also carry implied meaning, and this can be confusing
19:15:31 <janina> jc: Believe aria-description is proposed as a separate use case with no current mapping
19:20:04 <janina> ss: Suggest looking at this problem issue from the AAPI perspective. Would that help us?
19:20:34 <janina> ss: What to use today on ms?
19:20:40 <janina> cs: A secondary object
19:21:41 <janina> rs: I've seen href in bigger bubble help, not just text
19:22:13 <janina> ss: One use case is with custom widget, where kybd needs help
19:22:30 <janina> ss: Maybe aria-keyhelp attrib?
19:23:01 <jcraig> q+
19:23:11 <joanie> q-
19:23:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
19:23:29 <jcraig> q+ to say accesskey failed. We should not add aria-keyhelp
19:24:18 <janina> jc: Sounds like Access Key, and that didn't work
19:24:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
19:24:33 <jcraig> ack me
19:24:33 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say accesskey failed. We should not add aria-keyhelp
19:25:07 <janina> rs: Suggest we mull this issue for awhile and take it up again next week.
19:25:33 <jcraig> q+ maybe make @aria-tooltip instead @aria-help
19:25:59 <MichaelC> zakim, clear queue
19:25:59 <Zakim> I don't understand 'clear queue', MichaelC
19:26:07 <MichaelC> zakim, empty queue
19:26:07 <Zakim> I don't understand 'empty queue', MichaelC
19:26:23 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
19:26:41 <janina> jc: Suggest ew consider aria-tooltip as overide to tooltip
19:26:41 <jcraig> q+
19:26:48 <janina> rs: There's short and longer tooltip ...
19:26:48 <jcraig> ack ma
19:26:52 <jcraig> ack may
19:27:29 <janina> jc: Sometimes used for minidialog, which is part of the problem
19:28:00 <jcraig> q- @
19:28:13 <janina> jc: Would make aria-tooltip even more clear, because could only contain text
19:28:19 <jcraig> q- @
19:28:25 <jcraig> q- in
19:28:27 <jcraig> ack me
19:30:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
19:31:21 <jcraig> s/AX-Help, which is like ARIA-Description/AXHelp, which is sometimes used to expose aria-describedby content/
19:31:52 <Zakim> -Stefan_Schnabel
19:31:53 <Zakim> -[Apple]
19:31:56 <Zakim> -joanie
19:31:57 <Zakim> -janina
19:31:57 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
19:31:57 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:31:58 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
19:31:58 <janina> zakim, bye
19:31:58 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Rich_Schwerdtfeger, James_Nurthen, +49.322.110.8.aaaa, janina, Michael_Cooper, Stefan_Schnabel, jcraig, joanie, cyns, cyns_
19:31:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
19:32:05 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
19:32:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/17-aria-minutes.html janina
19:32:22 <jcraig> s/Sometimes used for minidialog, which is part of the problem/Sometimes used for mini-dialogs with focusable content, which is part of the problem/
19:32:32 <janina> make log public
19:32:38 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
19:33:06 <jcraig> s/which is part of the problem/which is part of the problem. @aria-tooltip make make it more apparent that it's just short strings of plain text./
19:33:16 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:33:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/17-aria-minutes.html jcraig
19:42:56 <jcraig> rrsagent, make log public
19:43:58 <jcraig> s/make log public//
19:44:35 <jcraig> ISSUE-406?
19:44:36 <trackbot> ISSUE-406 -- Proposal for new aria-tooltip property. (Previously proposed as @aria-help) -- open
19:44:36 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/406
19:44:55 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:44:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/17-aria-minutes.html jcraig
19:45:26 <jcraig> s/make log public/ /
19:45:37 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:45:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/17-aria-minutes.html jcraig
20:10:09 <MarkS> MarkS has joined #aria
21:57:51 <janina> janina has changed the topic to: ARIA Teleconference; Monday 24 February at 18:00Z for 90 minutes; Zakim 92473#
22:03:20 <janina> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/pr-WAI-ARIA1-UAIG1/results
22:03:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
22:03:28 <janina> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/pr-WAI-ARIA1-UAIG1/results
22:06:34 <janina> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=32212
23:44:45 <MarkS> MarkS has joined #aria
23:44:55 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria
23:47:41 <joanie> joanie has joined #aria