17:03:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
17:03:33 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/03-coga-irc
17:03:39 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
17:04:11 <Zakim> +??P7
17:04:16 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P7 is Michael_Cooper
17:04:16 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper; got it
17:04:40 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is John_Rochford
17:04:40 <Zakim> +John_Rochford; got it
17:04:43 <Zakim> +??P10
17:04:49 <Zakim> +??P8
17:04:52 <MichaelC> zakim, GVoice is Elle_Waters
17:04:52 <Zakim> +Elle_Waters; got it
17:05:15 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea
17:05:24 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P10 is Janina_Sajka
17:05:24 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
17:05:33 <MichaelC> zakim, mute ??P8
17:05:33 <Zakim> ??P8 should now be muted
17:05:37 <Zakim> + +1.301.367.aacc
17:05:52 <ElleWaters> ElleWaters has joined #coga
17:06:09 <MichaelC> zakim, IPcaller is Liddy_Nevile
17:06:09 <Zakim> +Liddy_Nevile; got it
17:06:24 <MichaelC> zakim, aacc is Barry_Johnson
17:06:24 <Zakim> +Barry_Johnson; got it
17:06:41 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.508.856.aaaa, Michel_Fitos, +1.301.367.aabb, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Michael_Cooper, John_Rochford, Elle_Waters, Katie_Haritos-Shea,
17:06:44 <Zakim> ... Janina_Sajka, +1.301.367.aacc, Liddy_Nevile, Barry_Johnson
17:07:29 <Barry> I am the 301-367 number (Barry Johnson)
17:07:48 <MichaelC> zakim, unmute ??P8
17:07:48 <Zakim> ??P8 should no longer be muted
17:08:15 <Zakim> -??P8
17:08:37 <Zakim> +Suzanne_Taylor
17:09:14 <Zakim> + +972.2.999.aadd
17:09:23 <NeilMilliken> NeilMilliken has joined #coga
17:09:24 <MichaelC> zakim, aadd is Lisa_Seeman
17:09:24 <Zakim> +Lisa_Seeman; got it
17:10:07 <MichaelC> zakim, mute lisa
17:10:07 <Zakim> Lisa_Seeman should now be muted
17:10:17 <Zakim> +??P13
17:10:41 <MichaelC> zakim, unmute lisa
17:10:41 <Zakim> Lisa_Seeman should no longer be muted
17:10:50 <Zakim> +Neil_Milliken
17:10:52 <Zakim> -??P13
17:11:39 <MichaelC> zakim, mute me
17:11:39 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper should now be muted
17:11:43 <Lisa_Seeman> Lisa_Seeman has joined #coga
17:12:02 <MichaelC> ack me
17:12:10 <MichaelC> zakim, mute me
17:12:10 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper should now be muted
17:12:46 <MichaelC> ack me
17:13:02 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
17:13:11 <MichaelC> meeting: Cognitive Accessibility Task Force
17:13:16 <MichaelC> chair: Lisa_Seeman
17:13:32 <ElleWaters> Agenda: Scribe (Elle volunteers)
17:13:36 <ElleWaters> Agenda: Introductions
17:13:48 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2014Feb/0001.html
17:13:59 <ElleWaters> Liddy: In Australia, interested in how to contribute to this conversation, particularly in the use of limited language
17:14:03 <ElleWaters> Thanks!
17:14:12 <MichaelC> s/Agenda:/topic:/g
17:14:41 <Lisa_Seeman> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2014Feb/0005.html
17:16:07 <ElleWaters> Lisa: Quick review of my comments and Neil's comments on top of that?
17:16:08 <Barry> Sure that would be great
17:17:24 <ElleWaters> Lisa: Difficult to do, asked to review something quite comprehensive, a bit early to jump in with group recommendations. Do we want to discuss this in more detail or shall I write it up and send it to the list?
17:17:43 <ElleWaters> Liddy: I think it would be interesting to hear you explain.
17:18:44 <ElleWaters> Lisa: Guideline 3.1 was to help users avoid unnecessary messages. Felt it was open to misinterpresentation (advertisers would argue that their messaging was hugely important). Recommended change: low-priority messages to the user or not critical to the use case
17:19:09 <janina> q?
17:19:12 <Suzanne> q+
17:20:11 <ElleWaters> Lisa: We can use the queue if needed, if there's no one in it, open questions are fine
17:20:56 <ElleWaters> John: Common problem with people with cognitive disabilities is that there's no consistent navigation, would be terrific if we could suggest the use of a universal help symbol, that consistency would be great for people with cognitive disabilities and great for everyone
17:21:05 <ElleWaters> Lisa: Mentioned in the email about the use of a question mark icon
17:21:15 <ElleWaters> John: Saw that, wasn't sure if that was true across languages
17:21:33 <ElleWaters> Lisa: Certainly we want to get there, somewhere that we may end up, but not sure that we can include it for this
17:22:24 <ElleWaters> Suzanne: Essential theme, the idea of what's important and what's essential to the task. Initial point was messages, now content, being able to show what's in the main landmark vs. a complementary landmark
17:22:44 <ElleWaters> Lisa: Bit of a change in how landmarks are used, main isn't necessarily task focus, might want to suggest a change or additional role
17:24:20 <ElleWaters> Lisa: Next comment was about helping users avoid issues correcting mistakes, need to be able to get back to the information that you put in before as a user... so, if it's too much to fill in within the span of a day, can go back. Neil added that users should be able to go back a step without losing what they've entered so far. Often CD users have low confidence in what they've done. The ability to be able to go back and check your work, I couldn't ag[CUT]
17:25:38 <ElleWaters> Lisa: When you add features, almost hoping that users select them by mistake... if someone is moved away from the original offering to an alternative, it should be very clear and the original offering should be the same size, positioned next to or above the alternative offering
17:26:22 <ElleWaters> Lisa: Neil added that the original choice should be selected by default and not the item that they want to up sell. I agree with that as well, although made it softer that it should be clear, can get back to it easily. Neil suggests that it should be the default even if it's easy to get back to it.
17:26:36 <janina> q?
17:26:38 <Lisa_Seeman> Q?
17:26:38 <NeilMilliken> Q
17:26:46 <janina> ack s
17:26:55 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
17:27:00 <NeilMilliken> q+
17:27:50 <Suzanne> q+
17:29:21 <ElleWaters> Elle: Just curious about how to enforce that
17:30:14 <ElleWaters> Neil: The reason why I think it should stay on the default, if you're clicking on a link, it should take you to what's been advertised. AVG is a good example of how confusing this is.
17:30:20 <ElleWaters> Elle: That's the exact example I was thinking of, too.
17:30:54 <Barry> And they use a link to go back but a Button to go forward...
17:30:57 <ElleWaters> Neil: I think that's pernicious, that despite you're getting the information, the product still appears to be free, more likely to catch out people with cognitive disabilities.
17:31:24 <janina> q?
17:31:28 <janina> ack n
17:31:30 <janina> ack s
17:31:36 <ElleWaters> @Barry - This is a tough sell, though, for design teams, especially when trying to define UX best practices and make that agreeable to marketing teams.
17:32:17 <Barry> @Elle - That is the hard part for us I guess
17:32:31 <ElleWaters> Suzanne: We can't really require specific design, but we can require a tag (ex. "This was your original offer.") with a visual indicator like a blue outline.
17:33:11 <ElleWaters> Lisa: Difficult to put this into this review, as they're in Last Call status, perhaps in semantics UI where we could see this put into place, but we're not there yet
17:33:34 <ElleWaters> Lisa: Maybe we can say "if semantics become available, we can use that to identify it"
17:34:32 <janina> q?
17:35:18 <ElleWaters> Lisa: 1st suggestion is to have the original offering as big and positioned before the alternative 2nd suggestion is Neil's proposal is to keep the original offering as the default choice and 3rd suggestion is Suzanne's to handle it via semantics
17:35:28 <ElleWaters> q+
17:37:40 <ElleWaters> Lisa: Put forward proposal that we suggest Neil's, another option is Lisa's, and Suzanne's when that option becomes available
17:38:00 <NeilMilliken> Agree
17:38:04 <ElleWaters> Agreed
17:40:01 <ElleWaters> Lisa: Context sensitive (easy to see) help more useful for people than hiding it inside a menu or on a large page of content
17:41:31 <ElleWaters> Lisa: Suggested use of tool tips on all icons, jargon and abbreviations, aids with limited working memory, less disoriented than going to a new screen
17:41:49 <ElleWaters> John: All great suggestions
17:41:49 <Lisa_Seeman> q?
17:41:53 <ElleWaters> -q
17:41:57 <ElleWaters> :)
17:42:03 <NeilMilliken> tool tips also have an impact on Dragon users
17:42:10 <ElleWaters> Great point, Neil
17:43:58 <ElleWaters> Tool tips (if too large) may have an impact on low-vision users, too
17:46:23 <janina> q?
17:47:09 <ElleWaters> Katie: layered help - instant feedback "Save" and then you can go into a deeper dive, more information than what initially comes up, one way to implement this
17:49:03 <ElleWaters> Lisa: Would like to propose that tool tips used like layered help, short and concise (similiar to or with title attribute) and then more information available
17:49:16 <JohnRochford> Agreed
17:49:19 <ElleWaters> Agreed
17:49:22 <NeilMilliken> Agree with Elle that tooltips should be succint
17:49:23 <NeilMilliken> agreed
17:49:23 <Barry> Agreed
17:49:28 <Suzanne> q+
17:49:28 <Michel> agreed
17:52:20 <ElleWaters> Agenda: Questions and issues for making user scenarios
17:52:53 <ElleWaters> Lisa: Is everyone comfortable with posting items on the Wiki before members in their group have seen it?
17:53:01 <NeilMilliken> I am happy and have already posted a straw man gap analysis
17:53:56 <ElleWaters> Lisa: We can use it as a scratch pad
17:53:59 <Barry> If we can use it as a "white board" for others to "cross out" or edit, I think it is a great idea
17:54:55 <ElleWaters> Lisa: Going to assume people are comfortable with what they're doing with the gap analysis. We'll actually start going through what others have, when ready to be reviewed by the group, let me know.
17:55:17 <NeilMilliken> I hope to be ready for a tear down by next week
17:55:53 <ElleWaters> Yes
17:55:58 <ElleWaters> aging and dementia
17:56:24 <Lisa_Seeman> q?
17:57:13 <Lisa_Seeman> ack Suzanne
17:57:18 <JohnRochford> q+
17:57:35 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos-Shea
17:57:38 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:57:44 <ElleWaters> Elle: Will work with our group to coordinate a plan for finishing publishing to get it ready for review
17:58:18 <janina> q?
18:00:00 <NeilMilliken> John I am happy to discuss with you - I also have access to a lot of users
18:00:20 <janina> ack j
18:00:21 <Zakim> -Michel_Fitos
18:00:34 <ElleWaters> John: Connections in Mass to many individuals we could utilize in testing. How to use them? Will come up with suggestions for the group by next meeting.
18:00:37 <JohnRochford> ok Neil, thank you
18:00:47 <Barry> Have to go to another meeting. Bye everyone!
18:00:54 <ElleWaters> Lisa: Thanks, everybody, will pick this up next call!
18:01:00 <Liddy> bye
18:01:16 <Barry> Thanks Elle!
18:01:16 <Zakim> -Liddy_Nevile
18:01:44 <ElleWaters> Zakim, bye
18:01:44 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +1.508.856.aaaa, Michel_Fitos, +1.301.367.aabb, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Michael_Cooper, John_Rochford, Elle_Waters, Katie_Haritos-Shea,
18:01:44 <Zakim> Zakim has left #coga
18:01:47 <Zakim> ... Janina_Sajka, +1.301.367.aacc, Liddy_Nevile, Barry_Johnson, Suzanne_Taylor, +972.2.999.aadd, Lisa_Seeman, Neil_Milliken
18:02:09 <ElleWaters> rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/03-coga-minutes.html ElleWaters
18:03:08 <Lisa_Seeman> http://www.w3.org/2014/02/03-coga-minutes.html,text
18:06:11 <Lisa_Seeman> rrsagent, make minutes  public
18:06:11 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes  public', Lisa_Seeman.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:06:42 <Barry> Quit
19:31:32 <Michel> Michel has joined #coga