16:49:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #privacy
16:49:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/30-privacy-irc
16:49:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 263
16:49:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
16:49:44 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:49:45 <trackbot> Meeting: Privacy Interest Group Teleconference
16:49:45 <trackbot> Date: 30 January 2014
16:49:51 <npdoty> rrsagent, make logs public
16:52:02 <tara> tara has joined #privacy
16:52:50 <rigo> zakim, this will be ping
16:52:50 <Zakim> ok, rigo; I see Team_(privacy)16:49Z scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
16:55:21 <Zakim> Team_(privacy)16:49Z has now started
16:55:28 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:55:36 <rigo> rigo has changed the topic to: Agenda 30 Jan http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-privacy/2014JanMar/0009.html
16:57:09 <christine> christine has joined #privacy
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16:57:42 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:57:43 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:57:57 <christine> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:57:57 <Zakim> sorry, christine, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]'
16:58:22 <christine> Zakim, IPcaller is me
16:58:22 <Zakim> sorry, christine, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'
16:58:40 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
16:58:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Apple]
16:58:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see richt, christine, tara, RRSAgent, Zakim, npdoty, rigo, glenn, fjh, TallTed, wseltzer, trackbot
16:59:13 <Zakim> +npdoty
16:59:34 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:59:49 <npdoty> Zakim, [Apple] has tara
16:59:49 <Zakim> +tara; got it
17:00:06 <npdoty> Zakim, [IPcaller] is richt
17:00:06 <Zakim> +richt; got it
17:00:42 <Zakim> +karima
17:00:48 <Karima> Karima has joined #privacy
17:01:14 <Ashok_Malhotra> Ashok_Malhotra has joined #privacy
17:01:15 <tara> Hi everyone. Waiting for a few more folks to join.
17:01:18 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:01:35 <christine> Zakim, IPcaller is me
17:01:35 <Zakim> +christine; got it
17:01:51 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:01:54 <fjh> zakim, IPcaller is me
17:01:54 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
17:02:12 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
17:02:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Apple], npdoty, richt, karima, christine, fjh
17:02:13 <Zakim> [Apple] has tara
17:02:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see Ashok_Malhotra, Karima, richt, christine, tara, RRSAgent, Zakim, npdoty, rigo, glenn, fjh, TallTed, wseltzer, trackbot
17:02:21 <Zakim> +[CDT]
17:02:46 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
17:03:43 <JoeHallCDT> JoeHallCDT has joined #privacy
17:04:08 <Zakim> + +1.469.242.aaaa
17:04:18 <npdoty> scribenick: npdoty
17:04:21 <JoeHallCDT> alas, I cannot scribe today but promise next time
17:04:43 <npdoty> Zakim, aaaa is FrankDawson
17:04:43 <Zakim> +FrankDawson; got it
17:05:10 <Zakim> +bblfish
17:05:26 <npdoty> richt: Rich Tibbet from Opera, patches for Chromium/blink and work in standards, Network Services Discovery
17:05:38 <bblfish> bblfish has joined #privacy
17:05:42 <bblfish> hi
17:05:45 <npdoty> Topic: Network Service Discovery
17:05:48 <christine> http://www.w3.org/TR/discovery-api/
17:06:14 <npdoty> richt: at a high level, connecting to devices / services on your network
17:06:27 <npdoty> ... UPNP/Zeroconf, which you may know as Bonjour
17:06:35 <npdoty> ... these protocols expose endpoint urls that speak http
17:06:56 <Zakim> -FrankDawson
17:06:57 <npdoty> ... tried to get to a point where a developer can request a well-known service type so they can communicate with services on different devices
17:07:11 <npdoty> ... layered on top of HTTP, can use XHR
17:07:40 <npdoty> ... 1.5 years in; lots of feedback from implementer mailing lists, like from Mozilla / Chromium
17:07:53 <npdoty> ... some concerns about privacy and security, worry about exposing unsafe devices
17:08:04 <npdoty> ... extremely wide range of different devices and services
17:08:12 <Zakim> +Clarke
17:08:24 <npdoty> ... change volume on your speaker, but also can change configuration of your router
17:08:43 <npdoty> ... in terms of security, added a requirement to the specification that services that want to be exposed, need to implement CORS
17:08:51 <Clarke> Clarke has joined #privacy
17:08:59 <npdoty> ... expose HTTP headers that those services have been audited/cleared for sharing with web pages
17:09:14 <npdoty> ... that's the main mechanism for security
17:09:25 <npdoty> ... the other major part is how the user interacts
17:09:36 <Clarke> Clarke Stevens from CableLabs just joined. I'm on the phone too.
17:09:45 <npdoty> ... a permissioning prompt where the user selects the services they want to share, like how we do geolocation
17:09:57 <npdoty> ... a certain degree of privacy and security, but looking for more input
17:10:20 <npdoty> ... any other ideas of what we can do, and an audit of how it works or whether anyone considers it unsafe
17:10:36 <npdoty> ... happy to answer questions
17:10:43 <fjh> Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
17:10:52 <tara> q?
17:10:53 <npdoty> http://www.w3.org/TR/discovery-api/
17:10:53 <christine> +q
17:10:53 <Clarke> Present+ Clarke_Stevens
17:11:04 <npdoty> ack christine
17:11:11 <wseltzer> regrets+ wseltzer
17:11:12 <fjh> q+
17:11:29 <yrlesru> yrlesru has joined #privacy
17:11:35 <npdoty> christine: appreciate your taking the time. forgive my introductory questions
17:12:06 <npdoty> ... permission prompt point -- what's the granularity or persistence of those permissions?
17:12:30 <npdoty> richt: have a prototype, but haven't actually built the UI; have some experience with WebRTC and Geolocation previously
17:13:07 <npdoty> ... site requests a particular type of service, browser searches for a list of candidates, candidates are displayed to the user and can click share
17:13:33 <npdoty> ... specification describes longevity, that permissions have to be asked again after next loading of a page
17:13:47 <npdoty> q+ to ask about persistence
17:14:35 <npdoty> ack fjh
17:14:53 <npdoty> fjh: for CORS, how do you know which origin corresponds to what?
17:15:27 <npdoty> richt: look for the existence of CORS headers, looking for wildcard matching
17:15:49 <npdoty> ... no particularly good way for CORS to specify a local IP address which you don't know ahead of time
17:16:02 <npdoty> q+ to ask if that's how CORS is intended
17:16:17 <npdoty> ... indicate to browsers in a general way that they're web-ready
17:16:51 <npdoty> ... as a user you could whitelist certain device types in your browser
17:17:09 <npdoty> ... in that case you could connect to legacy devices and services
17:17:19 <npdoty> ... likely to be an advanced option for users
17:17:38 <npdoty> ... or browsers could blacklist certain services, like routers, even if the user tries to whitelist them
17:17:58 <npdoty> ... a remedy for browser-makers to ensure user security
17:18:08 <npdoty> fjh: how would you blacklist a router? what do you need to know?
17:18:24 <npdoty> richt: there are well-known service types (defined by upnp), well-known strings
17:18:40 <npdoty> ack npdoty
17:18:40 <Zakim> npdoty, you wanted to ask about persistence and to ask if that's how CORS is intended
17:18:43 <richt> please refer to the editor's draft: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/discovery-api/Overview.html
17:19:07 <richt> The CORS mechanism has not yet been published in the TR version.
17:19:34 <fjh> ndoty: is asking for permissions repeatedly intended usage of  CORS
17:19:46 <fjh> s/ndoty/npdoty/
17:19:47 <Zakim> + +1.214.566.aabb
17:20:13 <fjh> richt: this approach is necessary, e.g. don't want automatic connection after a delay, e.g. 30 days
17:20:43 <fjh> npdoty: another question, is this intended use of CORS header or are you just taking advantage of it
17:20:59 <yrlesru> zakim aabb is yrlesru
17:21:19 <fjh> richt: once have service endpoint URL it is a resource, so CORS is appropriate, browser enforces CORS mechanism
17:21:26 <fjh> … using as specified
17:21:53 <fjh> … but in discovery sending HTTP OPTIONS request, using response to see if CORS supported and has headers
17:22:00 <fjh> … not changing CORS
17:22:22 <fjh> … potential issue with CORS regarding limit of exposure to local IP addresses, using wildcards
17:22:54 <yrlesru> zakim, ??aabb is me
17:22:54 <Zakim> sorry, yrlesru, I do not recognize a party named '??aabb'
17:23:04 <fjh> … when searching, knowing requesting web page and origin, check  that in service responses so wildcard not needed alwasy
17:23:25 <fjh> … but sub domains might be an issue (???)
17:23:25 <yrlesru> zakim, aabb is me
17:23:25 <Zakim> +yrlesru; got it
17:23:33 <fjh> s/alwasy/always
17:23:42 <npdoty> scribenick: npdoty
17:23:53 <npdoty> tara: any points that haven't been asked about yet?
17:24:10 <npdoty> richt: CORS, user-whitelisting or ua-blacklisting
17:24:37 <npdoty> ... different ways we could approach this problem -- building on top of existing APIs like XHR and WebSockets
17:24:50 <npdoty> ... powerful, but low-level
17:24:57 <npdoty> q+ to ask about identifiers
17:25:30 <npdoty> ... right now talking XML, but could next be JSON or WebSocket -- not very specific to UPNP, for example
17:26:10 <fjh> npdoty: common issue is unique identifiers can be used to correlate activity or re-identify user in unexpected manner
17:26:22 <fjh> … is identifier being given to endpoint
17:26:31 <fjh> … can two web services correlate activity?
17:26:48 <fjh> richt: spec does not deal with this, open DAP issue
17:27:12 <fjh> … endpoint URL likely to have numeric component, exposing and leaking local IP configuration
17:27:18 <fjh> … this is a concern
17:27:37 <fjh> … discussing how to obfuscate local IP addresses, would appreciate PING feedback on this
17:27:44 <fjh> … might be also an issue in WebRTC?
17:27:52 <fjh> … probably not a good practice.
17:28:19 <fjh> … obfuscating may create issue with responses containing IP addresses for media resources etc, so some thought required
17:28:30 <fjh> … please give feedback on importance of issue and approaches
17:28:34 <fjh> npdoty: will think about it
17:28:39 <npdoty> scribenick: npdoty
17:28:54 <npdoty> tara: may all need a bit more reflection over material from today
17:29:18 <fjh> q+
17:29:19 <npdoty> richt: we've concisely covered our issues. leaking IP address configuration is a key issue for feedback
17:29:22 <npdoty> q-
17:29:23 <christine> +q
17:29:33 <npdoty> ... editors' draft best for review (includes CORS)
17:29:37 <npdoty> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/discovery-api/Overview.html
17:29:53 <yrlesru> Would an alternative to persistent local IP address be capability for renewal of the identifier at user control?
17:30:04 <npdoty> richt: any improvements for user privacy or security would be great
17:30:05 <fjh> q?
17:30:08 <fjh> ack fjh
17:30:14 <npdoty> fjh: what's the schedule for review?
17:30:44 <npdoty> richt: as long as it's not multiple months; blocker on implementation and want to calm concerns about security
17:31:09 <npdoty> ... privacy and security review takes as long as it takes and implementation is blocked until it's finished
17:31:33 <npdoty> christine: the sooner the better but not overly demanding schedule
17:31:54 <npdoty> ... mentioned discussions of IP address leakage and obfuscation within DAP group
17:32:14 <npdoty> ... could you share the different possible mitigations?
17:32:45 <yrlesru> 2nd time to express my thoughts. Would an alternative to obfuscation of IP address be ability for user, on demand, to renew their identifier.
17:32:46 <npdoty> richt: can obfuscate the endpoint URL easily, like a transparent proxy; the hard part is intercepting and rewriting the HTTP responses
17:33:20 <npdoty> ... any alternatives would be helpful
17:33:47 <fjh> thanks rich for an excellent overview
17:34:18 <npdoty> richt: thanks all for the discussion and ongoing review
17:34:32 <bblfish> hi
17:34:34 <npdoty> Topic: WebID
17:34:35 <christine> +q
17:34:36 <richt> thank you everyone.
17:34:51 <npdoty> q+ bblfish
17:34:53 <npdoty> ack christine
17:34:56 <bblfish> np :-)
17:35:19 <npdoty> christine: question about group status.
17:35:42 <bblfish> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/WebID/raw-file/tip/spec/index.html
17:35:44 <npdoty> bblfish: was Incubator, now working as a Community Group
17:35:55 <fjh> is there a link for the CG, participants?
17:36:05 <npdoty> bblfish: would like to finish, publish specs hopefully by the summer
17:36:17 <richt> would like to bring https://2x.io/read/security-by-obscurity to the attention of this group. RE: exposing local IP addresses to web pages in WebRTC (as I mentioned earlier on this call).
17:37:11 <christine> Thanks for the clarification Nick
17:37:16 <christine> No more from me
17:38:00 <npdoty> bblfish: would like to push this up to the next stage, five years of work altogether
17:38:22 <npdoty> ... two specifications and an ontology
17:38:52 <npdoty> ... Web Identity and, separately, how do you communicate with WebID over TLS
17:39:04 <fjh> q+ to ask about web id correlation
17:39:16 <npdoty> ... and then prototypes, for example, using access control for a wiki
17:39:26 <npdoty> ... using Linked Data
17:40:00 <npdoty> ... have added Privacy/Security Considerations sections to the two specs
17:40:05 <npdoty> ... new since we last talked here
17:40:18 <npdoty> ... looking for feedback on those sections
17:41:10 <npdoty> ... authentication over TLS, rather frequently implemented/used in browsers
17:41:13 <npdoty> ack fjh
17:41:13 <Zakim> fjh, you wanted to ask about web id correlation
17:41:21 <npdoty> q- bblfish
17:41:40 <npdoty> fjh: what the requirements are; is there an issue here of correlation which would need obfuscation
17:42:17 <npdoty> bblfish: WebID does make it easy to link profiles, it is meant for that specifically to support a decentralized Social Web
17:42:39 <npdoty> ... can create p2p social networks over HTTP, reduces centralization which is advantageous, but leakage of links/URIs
17:43:26 <npdoty> ... costs are weighed against the benefit of that decentralized social networking
17:43:30 <yrlesru> Was this the reference to use cases and requirements? , https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/default/ldp-ucr.html#maintaining-social-contact-information
17:43:47 <npdoty> ... communicating over SSL can prevent eavesdropping
17:43:55 <npdoty> fjh: just important to make the tradeoff clear
17:44:24 <npdoty> tara: timeline?
17:44:44 <fjh> thanks for clarifying the potential tradeoff between decentralization and potential for Service provider (web application) correlation based on ids
17:44:45 <npdoty> bblfish: not a great hurry, but quick review of privacy and security sections would be helpful
17:45:21 <npdoty> Topic: documents in progress
17:45:41 <npdoty> tara: various documents in different stages of status
17:45:44 <npdoty> ... fingerprinting?
17:46:35 <fjh> npdoty: regarding fingerprinting, made an update before the last call, had questions about feasibility of addressing the concern
17:46:46 <fjh> … have some ideas but have not had a chance to write up yet
17:47:28 <fjh> … would like some help with reviewing
17:47:29 <christine> Thank you fjh - that would be helpful
17:47:57 <npdoty> scribenick: npdoty
17:48:01 <christine> yes, I realised that too late, sorry
17:48:15 <npdoty> tara: comments elicited for EME and getUserMedia
17:48:46 <npdoty> JoeHallCDT: I sent some notes late last year, a very well-considered document already
17:49:05 <npdoty> ... lacked a more systematic way of doing a review in a reputable process
17:49:36 <christine> +q
17:49:46 <npdoty> ... if we want to do privacy reviews in a more standardized way, happy to do that (have more help inside CDT now)
17:49:53 <npdoty> ack christine
17:50:49 <npdoty> christine: pleased to hear your ability to participate
17:51:00 <bblfish> yrlesru, thanks for the pointer to the WebId use case ( catching up on IRC )
17:51:24 <yrlesru> ISO/IEC 29100:2011 Information technology -- Security techniques -- Privacy framework Is now publicly available at no cost at http://standards.iso.org/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/c045123_ISO_IEC_29100_2011.zip
17:51:25 <npdoty> JoeHallCDT: hoping to have more chance to engage, that PING would be a good place to have those discussions
17:51:53 <npdoty> christine: current status on EME?
17:52:28 <yrlesru> If Nick Doty can note this in minutes. This standard provides a standard privacy framework (terminology, roles, responsibilities, principles, etc) for privacy that is aligned with proposed EU DP Regulation in many ways.
17:52:57 <christine> Thanks for the update re status on EME
17:52:59 <npdoty> JoeHallCDT: a lot of tension, html media group very interested in closing down issues but still quite a bit of principled concern
17:53:24 <npdoty> ... also a separate alternative proposal in WHATWG
17:53:42 <npdoty> ... need some guidance
17:54:16 <npdoty> ... had already done a good job thinking about privacy, in the UA and in the CDMs
17:54:38 <yrlesru> Joe, I would be available for a workshop on the subject during week of CDT Gala and IAPP in DC.
17:54:47 <npdoty> ... settle on a coordinated systematic way for doing a privacy review when someone comes up to PING
17:55:02 <npdoty> ... can't wrap it up without knowing what the framework should be
17:55:12 <yrlesru> q+
17:55:14 <npdoty> q+ to ask about learnings from EME
17:55:24 <christine> +q
17:55:41 <npdoty> ... is "already looks good" an appropriate response?
17:55:55 <npdoty> yrlesru: tried offline to start reviewing a number of specs
17:56:20 <npdoty> ... a number of framework approaches you can take -- classically, look at the data flows from the applicable privacy principles
17:56:32 <npdoty> ... or look at collection/storage/transfer/processing/
17:56:56 <npdoty> ... Hannes had proposed an approach that was a standard list of principles and threats, a potential checklist
17:57:45 <npdoty> ... 1) people come to us after the fact, a checkbox so that they can go to the next phase of implementation
17:58:23 <npdoty> ... or 2) talk to people earlier during the design alternatives phase, where we think through systematically the different ways we could think through
17:58:40 <npdoty> ... an ISO standard on privacy principles is now publicly available and may be useful
17:58:52 <npdoty> http://standards.iso.org/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/c045123_ISO_IEC_29100_2011.zip
17:59:20 <npdoty> yrlesru: if we want to meet up in person around CDT event and try with a whiteboard, would work for me
17:59:34 <npdoty> JoeHallCDT: can talk offline; IETF is a potential conflict
18:00:17 <npdoty> tara: running out of time at this point, wrapping up comments
18:00:38 <christine> quick point Tara before you close
18:00:40 <npdoty> yrlesru: one problem that's come up: do we have a clear understanding of what the use cases are for an API?
18:00:42 <npdoty> q-
18:00:48 <npdoty> ack yrlesru
18:01:00 <npdoty> ... have seen that same problem crop up on other specs
18:01:02 <npdoty> ack christine
18:01:15 <bblfish> cool please let me know what questions we need to look at, answer :-)
18:01:20 <npdoty> christine: really appreciate the enthusiasm to work out a structured way for PING to do privacy reviews
18:01:40 <npdoty> ... a key goal is to develop guidance and to develop the system for reviews
18:01:58 <npdoty> ... what we've been doing is having informal privacy reviews even while we're in process for developing guidance
18:02:40 <npdoty> next call -- March 13th?
18:02:49 <npdoty> (later than the first week of March, because of the IETF conflict)
18:02:51 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
18:02:56 <Zakim> -Clarke
18:02:56 <christine> I'll also suggest a PING meeting at IETF on the mailing list
18:02:57 <bblfish> thanks a lot
18:03:00 <Zakim> -[CDT]
18:03:01 <Zakim> -yrlesru
18:03:02 <Zakim> -fjh
18:03:03 <Zakim> -richt
18:03:04 <npdoty> tara: thanks all
18:03:04 <Zakim> -npdoty
18:03:06 <Zakim> -christine
18:03:07 <Zakim> -karima
18:03:07 <npdoty> chair: tara
18:03:08 <Zakim> -[Apple]
18:03:11 <Zakim> -bblfish
18:03:12 <Zakim> Team_(privacy)16:49Z has ended
18:03:12 <Zakim> Attendees were npdoty, tara, richt, karima, christine, fjh, [CDT], Ashok_Malhotra, +1.469.242.aaaa, FrankDawson, bblfish, Clarke, +1.214.566.aabb, yrlesru
18:03:18 <npdoty> rrsagent, please draft the minutes
18:03:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/30-privacy-minutes.html npdoty
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