14:17:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/03-rdf-wg-irc
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14:17:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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14:18:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
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14:18:00 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 42 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 42 minutes ←
14:18:01 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:18:01 <trackbot> Date: 03 October 2012
14:18:07 <ivan> Chair: David Wood
14:58:47 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
(No events recorded for 40 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started ←
14:58:54 <Zakim> +davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood ←
14:59:08 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
David Wood: Zakim, who is here? ←
14:59:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see davidwood ←
14:59:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, ScottB, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, mischat, MacTed, ivan, LeeF, SteveH, manu1, manu, gkellogg, yvesr, davidwood, trackbot, ericP, sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see pfps, ScottB, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, mischat, MacTed, ivan, LeeF, SteveH, manu1, manu, gkellogg, yvesr, davidwood, trackbot, ericP, sandro ←
14:59:22 <pfps> I am IRC only today
Peter Patel-Schneider: I am IRC only today ←
14:59:25 <ivan> zakim, code?
Ivan Herman: zakim, code? ←
14:59:25 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan ←
14:59:39 <Zakim> +Tony
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14:59:53 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
14:59:57 <ScottB> Zakim, Tony is temporarily me
Scott Bauer: Zakim, Tony is temporarily me ←
14:59:57 <Zakim> +ScottB; got it
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15:00:05 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPcaller is me ←
15:00:05 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
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15:00:07 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
15:00:47 <Zakim> +ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +ivan ←
15:01:02 <Zakim> +??P10
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10 ←
15:01:06 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P10
Gregg Kellogg: zakim, I am ??P10 ←
15:01:06 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it ←
15:01:28 <Zakim> +??P11
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P11 ←
15:01:43 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.408.996.aaaa ←
15:01:56 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
Zakim IRC Bot: +mhausenblas ←
15:01:58 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
Richard Cyganiak: zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me ←
15:01:58 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it ←
15:02:02 <Zakim> +??P16
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16 ←
15:02:06 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P16 is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P16 is me ←
15:02:06 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it ←
15:02:09 <Zakim> + +1.707.318.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.707.318.aabb ←
15:02:12 <Zakim> +gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc ←
15:02:58 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
David Wood: Zakim, who is here? ←
15:02:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood, ScottB, AndyS, Sandro, ivan, gkellogg, pchampin, +1.408.996.aaaa, cygri, SteveH, +1.707.318.aabb, gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see davidwood, ScottB, AndyS, Sandro, ivan, gkellogg, pchampin, +1.408.996.aaaa, cygri, SteveH, +1.707.318.aabb, gavinc ←
15:03:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see Arnaud, gavinc, cgreer, pchampin, cygri, pfps, ScottB, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, mischat, MacTed, ivan, LeeF, SteveH, manu1, manu, gkellogg, yvesr, davidwood, trackbot,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Arnaud, gavinc, cgreer, pchampin, cygri, pfps, ScottB, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, mischat, MacTed, ivan, LeeF, SteveH, manu1, manu, gkellogg, yvesr, davidwood, trackbot, ←
15:03:00 <Zakim> ... ericP, sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: ... ericP, sandro ←
15:03:52 <gavinc> zakim, aabb is cgreer
Gavin Carothers: zakim, aabb is cgreer ←
15:03:52 <Zakim> +cgreer; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cgreer; got it ←
15:03:57 <cgreer> zakim, aabb is me
Charles Greer: zakim, aabb is me ←
15:03:57 <Zakim> sorry, cgreer, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, cgreer, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb' ←
15:04:14 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus_Schreiber ←
15:04:37 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
15:04:42 <Zakim> +??P22
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22 ←
15:04:43 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:04:44 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:04:45 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:04:45 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:05:11 <AZ> Zakim, ??P22 is me
Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, ??P22 is me ←
15:05:11 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it ←
15:05:11 <pchampin> scribe: pchampin
(Scribe set to Pierre-Antoine Champin)
15:05:25 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 26 September:
David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 26 September: ←
15:05:25 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-09-26
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-09-26 ←
15:05:45 <davidwood> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 26 September:
David Wood: RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 26 September: ←
15:05:45 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-09-26
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-09-26 ←
15:05:58 <davidwood> Topic: Review of action items
15:07:12 <pchampin> cygri: I mostly offline next week
Richard Cyganiak: I mostly offline next week ←
15:07:22 <pchampin> ... I can post my comments to the list next sunday
... I can post my comments to the list this sunday ←
15:07:25 <davidwood> s/next/this/
15:07:30 <ivan> s/next/this/
15:08:30 <pchampin> david: can we have another reviewer for Provenance Constraints document?
David Wood: can we have another reviewer for Provenance Constraints document? ←
15:08:59 <pchampin> ivan: this document is the furthest away from the WG
Ivan Herman: this document is the furthest away from the WG ←
15:09:33 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice] ←
15:10:05 <ericP> apologies, all -- burried in prov constraints
Eric Prud'hommeaux: apologies, all -- burried in prov constraints ←
15:10:37 <pchampin> david: some discussions that happened on the mailing list, related to datasets, seemed also related to the Constraints document
David Wood: some discussions that happened on the mailing list, related to datasets, seemed also related to the Constraints document ←
15:10:47 <pchampin> ... so we might want someone to review it
... so we might want someone to review it ←
15:11:06 <Zakim> +??P27
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27 ←
15:11:16 <pchampin> ivan: the problem is that the document is hard to read, very mathematical
Ivan Herman: the problem is that the document is hard to read, very mathematical ←
15:11:36 <pchampin> ... and hard to understand in isolation
... and hard to understand in isolation ←
15:11:55 <pchampin> ... the Provenance data-model is a pre-requisite
... the Provenance data-model is a pre-requisite ←
15:11:57 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:12:02 <ericP> q+ to ask what we hope to get out of a review
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to ask what we hope to get out of a review ←
15:12:20 <pchampin> AZ: I can give it a try, but the deadlines for the reviews will be hard to meet
Antoine Zimmermann: I can give it a try, but the deadlines for the reviews will be hard to meet ←
15:12:26 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P27 is me
Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P27 is me ←
15:12:26 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it ←
15:14:06 <pchampin> ivan: it would be more efficient for us if we came back to the Prov-WG
Ivan Herman: it would be more efficient for us if we came back to the Prov-WG ←
15:14:18 <pchampin> ... and ask them to ask us the questions they have for our WG
... and ask them to ask us the questions they have for our WG ←
15:15:05 <AZ> you can still put an action on me, even if there is a chance that it'll be overdue
Antoine Zimmermann: you can still put an action on me, even if there is a chance that it'll be overdue ←
15:15:29 <ericP> q?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q? ←
15:15:32 <ericP> ack mq
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ack mq ←
15:15:32 <pchampin> david: I'll try to get that done
David Wood: I'll try to get that done ←
15:15:34 <ericP> ack me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ack me ←
15:15:34 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask what we hope to get out of a review
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to ask what we hope to get out of a review ←
15:15:37 <ivan> ack me
Ivan Herman: ack me ←
15:15:46 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2012/10/prov-dm
Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/2012/10/prov-dm ←
15:15:52 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2012/10/prov-constraints
Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/2012/10/prov-constraints ←
15:15:57 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2012/10/prov-constraints#worksOnGraphStore
Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/2012/10/prov-constraints#worksOnGraphStore ←
15:16:31 <pchampin> eric: I spent some time reading both documents
Eric Prud'hommeaux: I spent some time reading both documents ←
15:16:35 <pchampin> ... above are my notes about them
... above are my notes about them ←
15:17:00 <pchampin> ... could help Antoine in his review
... could help Antoine in his review ←
15:17:53 <AndyS> Could be important to LDP
Andy Seaborne: Could be important to LDP ←
15:18:08 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
15:19:28 <pchampin> david: after a quick look at the document, it seems to me that many stores already do that
David Wood: after a quick look at the document, it seems to me that many stores already do that ←
15:19:39 <pchampin> ... storing bookkeeping data in a dedicated graph
... storing bookkeeping data in a dedicated graph ←
15:21:28 <cygri> erciP, how do you create those annotations? edit HTML in the source?
Richard Cyganiak: erciP, how do you create those annotations? edit HTML in the source? ←
15:21:59 <ericP> cygri, yup, look for .mark (i suffered a lack of imagination at the time)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: cygri, yup, look for .mark (i suffered a lack of imagination at the time) ←
15:22:00 <pchampin> topic: FTF3
15:22:13 <pchampin> david: I cleaned up the participants list on the wiki
David Wood: I cleaned up the participants list on the wiki ←
15:22:39 <ericP> cygri, ".mark" in the style block and e.g. <span class="mark">...</span> elsewhere
Eric Prud'hommeaux: cygri, ".mark" in the style block and e.g. <span class="mark">...</span> elsewhere ←
15:23:06 <pchampin> ... If anybody has specific agenda request, please post them to the mailing list
... If anybody has specific agenda request, please post them to the mailing list ←
15:23:27 <cygri> ericP, i'll have to do my annotations on paper this time because i won't have a computer around for it, so i'll pass this time. i can see though how this can be very useful for reviewing big documents
Richard Cyganiak: ericP, i'll have to do my annotations on paper this time because i won't have a computer around for it, so i'll pass this time. i can see though how this can be very useful for reviewing big documents ←
15:23:43 <pchampin> topic: graphs
15:24:18 <pchampin> david: we had several proposals for the Trig syntax
David Wood: we had several proposals for the Trig syntax ←
15:25:23 <davidwood> PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future, the WG will decide whether to include something simple (relevant to datasets) in the RDF 1.1 Semantics, such as [ <N, G> name-entails <N', G'> just when N=N' and G entails G'. ] and the WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES.
PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future, the WG will decide whether to include something simple (relevant to datasets) in the RDF 1.1 Semantics, such as [ <N, G> name-entails <N', G'> just when N=N' and G entails G'. ] and the WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES. ←
15:25:27 <pchampin> ... but we should first try to settle on the dataset semantic proposal
... but we should first try to settle on the dataset semantic proposal ←
15:25:48 <AZ> q+
Antoine Zimmermann: q+ ←
15:25:58 <davidwood> ack AZ
David Wood: ack AZ ←
15:26:50 <pchampin> AZ: I think there was another proposal last time, from Pat and Peter, defining an entailment for datasets
Antoine Zimmermann: I think there was another proposal last time, from Pat and Peter, defining an entailment for datasets ←
15:27:27 <pchampin> david: I think there was still contention about the meaning of the default graph
David Wood: I think there was still contention about the meaning of the default graph ←
15:27:33 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:27:50 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
15:28:18 <pchampin> AZ: it is not about the *meaning* of the default graph, only a constraint on entailment
Antoine Zimmermann: it is not about the *meaning* of the default graph, only a constraint on entailment ←
15:28:33 <pchampin> david: and what do you think are the ramifications?
David Wood: and what do you think are the ramifications? ←
15:28:49 <pchampin> AZ: it constrains a little bit more how you can possibly interpret a dataset as a whole
Antoine Zimmermann: it constrains a little bit more how you can possibly interpret a dataset as a whole ←
15:29:04 <davidwood> STRAWPOLL: Have no Dataset Semantics (in the lifetime of this WG) http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-09-26#line0228
STRAWPOLL: Have no Dataset Semantics (in the lifetime of this WG) http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-09-26#line0228 ←
15:29:17 <pfps> +1
15:29:21 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:29:26 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
15:29:33 <pchampin> david: the answer last week to the strawpoll above was mostly "no we shoulnd't"
David Wood: the answer last week to the strawpoll above was mostly "no we shoulnd't" ←
15:29:46 <sandro> ( davidwood was just repeating STRAWPOLL from last week )
Sandro Hawke: ( davidwood was just repeating STRAWPOLL from last week ) ←
15:30:01 <davidwood> yes
David Wood: yes ←
15:30:04 <pchampin> cygri: an argument against Antoine's proposal (and Pat's):
Richard Cyganiak: an argument against Antoine's proposal (and Pat's): ←
15:30:36 <PatH> call Antoines proposal "componentwise" entasilment to save time.
Patrick Hayes: call Antoines proposal "componentwise" entasilment to save time. ←
15:30:40 <pchampin> ... it is potentially dangerous to put a sketch of semantics that does not solve any problem on its own
... it is potentially dangerous to put a sketch of semantics that does not solve any problem on its own ←
15:31:04 <sandro> cygri: A reason against both these proposals is: it's potentially dangerous to put a sketch of a semantics in there, where we know it's not really a solution to anything, just a minimal part of the picture, that no one felt like formally objecting against. If we don't have consensus on a USEFUL and in some sense COMOPLETE, then better to leave semantics unconstrained, leave it to future work.
Richard Cyganiak: A reason against both these proposals is: it's potentially dangerous to put a sketch of a semantics in there, where we know it's not really a solution to anything, just a minimal part of the picture, that no one felt like formally objecting against. If we don't have consensus on a USEFUL and in some sense COMOPLETE, then better to leave semantics unconstrained, leave it to future work. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:31:07 <sandro> +1 cygri
Sandro Hawke: +1 cygri ←
15:31:12 <pchampin> ... so if we can not agree on a "full package", then let's not constrain at all
... so if we can not agree on a "full package", then let's not constrain at all ←
15:31:37 <sandro> cygri: These proposals would be constraining future WGs.
Richard Cyganiak: These proposals would be constraining future WGs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:31:45 <pchampin> ... or any future work (future RDF WG) would have to deal with those constraints
... or any future work (future RDF WG) would have to deal with those constraints ←
15:32:03 <sandro> cygri: It's kind of setting up a minefield for future research.
Richard Cyganiak: It's kind of setting up a minefield for future research. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:33:01 <davidwood> ack PatH
David Wood: ack PatH ←
15:33:17 <pchampin> david: the proposal is to not define a semantics, and may be give reference to *examples* of how it could be done
David Wood: the proposal is to not define a semantics, and may be give reference to *examples* of how it could be done ←
15:33:30 <sandro> pat: My proposal is not a constraint because it's just defining a term.
Patrick Hayes: My proposal is not a constraint because it's just defining a term. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:33:45 <pchampin> pat: my proposal does not constrain any future work
Patrick Hayes: my proposal does not constrain any future work ←
15:34:02 <pchampin> ... it merely proposes a terminology to talk about this kind of problem
... it merely proposes a terminology to talk about this kind of problem ←
15:34:25 <AZ> q+
Antoine Zimmermann: q+ ←
15:34:53 <pchampin> ... the problem with Antoine's proposal is that an inconsistent default graph makes the entire dataset inconcistent
... the problem with Antoine's proposal is that an inconsistent default graph makes the entire dataset inconcistent ←
15:35:00 <sandro> pat: The problem with the somewhat larger proposal is that an inconsistent default graph leads to entailing everything.
Patrick Hayes: The problem with the somewhat larger proposal is that an inconsistent default graph leads to entailing everything. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:35:09 <pchampin> ... hence the dataset would entail anything, regardless of what is in the named graphs
... hence the dataset would entail anything, regardless of what is in the named graphs ←
15:35:15 <davidwood> ack AZ
David Wood: ack AZ ←
15:35:42 <pchampin> AZ: my proposal does not implies that
Antoine Zimmermann: my proposal does not implies that ←
15:35:52 <pchampin> ... we don't define a notion of semantics
... we don't define a notion of semantics ←
15:36:23 <pchampin> ... it just says that an inconsistent default graph will entail any default graph, not dataset
... it just says that an inconsistent default graph will entail any default graph, not dataset ←
15:36:54 <pchampin> pat: entailment is assumed to be truth-preserving
Patrick Hayes: entailment is assumed to be truth-preserving ←
15:37:15 <pchampin> ... so from that definition of truth, one would derive a definition of truth
... so from that definition of truth, one would derive a definition of truth ←
15:37:24 <yvesr> what's the argument against a semantic without default graphs? (as was proposed above)
Yves Raimond: what's the argument against a semantic without default graphs? (as was proposed above) ←
15:37:44 <pchampin> ... what you need is only to talk about entailment between graphs
... what you need is only to talk about entailment between graphs ←
15:38:25 <davidwood> PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future, the WG will decide whether to include something simple (relevant to datasets) in the RDF 1.1 Semantics, such as [ <N, G> name-entails <N', G'> just when N=N' and G entails G'. ] and the WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES.
PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future, the WG will decide whether to include something simple (relevant to datasets) in the RDF 1.1 Semantics, such as [ <N, G> name-entails <N', G'> just when N=N' and G entails G'. ] and the WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES. ←
15:38:43 <pchampin> ... The "modest proposal" just extends RDF-entailment with "named entailment"
... The "modest proposal" just extends RDF-entailment with "named entailment" ←
15:39:00 <davidwood> PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future, the WG will decide whether to include something simple (relevant to datasets) in the RDF 1.1 Semantics and the WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES.
PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future, the WG will decide whether to include something simple (relevant to datasets) in the RDF 1.1 Semantics and the WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES. ←
15:39:28 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:39:34 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
15:39:38 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:39:53 <pchampin> david: would the group be more comfortable with the 2nd proposal above?
David Wood: would the group be more comfortable with the 2nd proposal above? ←
15:41:02 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:41:04 <pchampin> cygri: this is a slippery slope, as Pat's proposal makes it very easy to derive a dataset entailment from Pat's named-entailement
Richard Cyganiak: this is a slippery slope, as Pat's proposal makes it very easy to derive a dataset entailment from Pat's named-entailement ←
15:41:18 <pchampin> ... and we would end up where we didn't want to be in the first place
... and we would end up where we didn't want to be in the first place ←
15:41:37 <sandro> PROPOSED: This Working Group will not include in a Rec-Track document any semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig).
PROPOSED: This Working Group will not include in a Rec-Track document any semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). ←
15:41:54 <pchampin> pat: the difference is between defining something and saying that people must use it
Patrick Hayes: the difference is between defining something and saying that people must use it ←
15:42:00 <ivan> q-
Ivan Herman: q- ←
15:42:06 <gavinc> people happen to ignore the semantics already when they need to, and fall back to it when they want to. No one seems to care today
Gavin Carothers: people happen to ignore the semantics already when they need to, and fall back to it when they want to. No one seems to care today ←
15:42:18 <AZ> possible proposal: this Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future (that is, in a different WG), a formal semantics may be defined, or simply constraints on what entailment might be.
Antoine Zimmermann: possible proposal: this Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future (that is, in a different WG), a formal semantics may be defined, or simply constraints on what entailment might be. ←
15:42:37 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
15:42:46 <pfps> +1
15:42:48 <AZ> I understand
Antoine Zimmermann: I understand ←
15:43:17 <davidwood> PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future, the WG will decide whether to include something simple (relevant to datasets) in the RDF 1.1 Semantics and the WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES.
PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future, the WG will decide whether to include something simple (relevant to datasets) in the RDF 1.1 Semantics and the WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES. ←
15:43:26 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
15:43:41 <PatH> whoops, ignore that
Patrick Hayes: whoops, ignore that ←
15:43:44 <davidwood> PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). The WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES.
PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). The WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES. ←
15:43:49 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
15:43:50 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
15:43:52 <pfps> +1
15:43:55 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
15:43:55 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:43:56 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
15:43:56 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
15:43:58 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
15:43:58 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
15:43:58 <pchampin> +1
+1 ←
15:44:06 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
15:44:06 <cgreer> +1
Charles Greer: +1 ←
15:44:24 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
15:44:24 <cygri> (i'd like to see the note published too)
Richard Cyganiak: (i'd like to see the note published too) ←
15:44:24 <MacTed> +1 Ivan
Ted Thibodeau: +1 Ivan ←
15:44:29 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
15:44:44 <davidwood> RESOLVED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). The WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES.
RESOLVED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). The WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES. ←
15:44:49 <ericP> party time!
Eric Prud'hommeaux: party time! ←
15:44:54 <AZ> We have enough material to write a book about dataset semantics!
Antoine Zimmermann: We have enough material to write a book about dataset semantics! ←
15:44:55 <sandro> victory!
Sandro Hawke: victory! ←
15:44:57 <SteveH> tea and cake?
Steve Harris: tea and cake? ←
15:45:18 <yvesr> although i still think we need to really evaluate whether we want default graphs in trig
Yves Raimond: although i still think we need to really evaluate whether we want default graphs in trig ←
15:45:20 <pchampin> ivan: ok with the proposal, but I really would like the note to be published
Ivan Herman: ok with the proposal, but I really would like the note to be published ←
15:45:31 <pchampin> ... we should really discuss it at the F2F
... we should really discuss it at the F2F ←
15:46:00 <pchampin> ... a note may list various conflicting approaches
... a note may list various conflicting approaches ←
15:46:24 <davidwood> MacTed suggested adding a ftf agendum regarding a dataset semantics Note.
David Wood: MacTed suggested adding a ftf agendum regarding a dataset semantics Note. ←
15:46:34 <AZ> I'd be glad to contribute to such a note
Antoine Zimmermann: I'd be glad to contribute to such a note ←
15:46:44 <pchampin> sandro: we need to be careful that, even if the note is not normative, some people might use it as if it was
Sandro Hawke: we need to be careful that, even if the note is not normative, some people might use it as if it was ←
15:47:00 <sandro> +1 a descriptive NOTE (not a sort of "we think you should do this" kind of note.)
Sandro Hawke: +1 a descriptive NOTE (not a sort of "we think you should do this" kind of note.) ←
15:47:02 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Implementations that parse and store information from TriG documents MAY turn the TriG default graph into a named graph with a name chosen in an implementation-dependent way.
PROPOSED: Implementations that parse and store information from TriG documents MAY turn the TriG default graph into a named graph with a name chosen in an implementation-dependent way. ←
15:47:03 <pchampin> topic: trig syntax
15:47:13 <cygri> sandro, +1 to that
Richard Cyganiak: sandro, +1 to that ←
15:47:30 <davidwood> PROPOSED: We will produce a W3C Recommendation for a dataset syntax, similar to TriG and to SPARQL's named graph syntax.
PROPOSED: We will produce a W3C Recommendation for a dataset syntax, similar to TriG and to SPARQL's named graph syntax. ←
15:48:23 <sandro> PROPOSED: We will produce a W3C Recommendation for a dataset syntax, similar to TriG and to SPARQL's named graph syntax. This does not preclude another syntax, eg n-quads
PROPOSED: We will produce a W3C Recommendation for a dataset syntax, similar to TriG and to SPARQL's named graph syntax. This does not preclude another syntax, eg n-quads ←
15:48:25 <davidwood> PROPOSED: We will produce a W3C Recommendation for a dataset syntax, similar to TriG and to SPARQL's named graph syntax. This does not preclude recommending a syntax like n-quads.
PROPOSED: We will produce a W3C Recommendation for a dataset syntax, similar to TriG and to SPARQL's named graph syntax. This does not preclude recommending a syntax like n-quads. ←
15:48:28 <gavinc> +1 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/trig/index.html
Gavin Carothers: +1 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/trig/index.html ←
15:48:32 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
15:48:34 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
15:48:34 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
15:48:35 <AndyS> The default graph in/out {} plays in here.
Andy Seaborne: The default graph in/out {} plays in here. ←
15:48:37 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
15:48:37 <pfps> +1
15:48:38 <AZ> 1
15:48:40 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:48:40 <cygri> +0.2
Richard Cyganiak: +0.2 ←
15:48:41 <cgreer> +1
Charles Greer: +1 ←
15:48:42 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
15:48:43 <pchampin> +1
+1 ←
15:48:44 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
15:48:50 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
15:48:55 <PatH> model for that note might be http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/
Patrick Hayes: model for that note might be http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/ ←
15:49:07 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
15:49:08 <davidwood> RESOLVED: We will produce a W3C Recommendation for a dataset syntax, similar to TriG and to SPARQL's named graph syntax. This does not preclude recommending a syntax like n-quads.
RESOLVED: We will produce a W3C Recommendation for a dataset syntax, similar to TriG and to SPARQL's named graph syntax. This does not preclude recommending a syntax like n-quads. ←
15:49:25 <ivan> +1 to Pat
Ivan Herman: +1 to Pat ←
15:49:25 <davidwood> PROPOSED: We'll request a media-type for this syntax which is different from the media-type for Turtle. (That is, we will not consider this language to supplant Turtle and take over the name, becoming the new "Turtle", as was once proposed.)
PROPOSED: We'll request a media-type for this syntax which is different from the media-type for Turtle. (That is, we will not consider this language to supplant Turtle and take over the name, becoming the new "Turtle", as was once proposed.) ←
15:49:35 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
15:49:37 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
15:49:41 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
15:49:42 <cgreer> +1
Charles Greer: +1 ←
15:49:42 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
15:49:43 <pchampin> +1
+1 ←
15:49:44 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
15:49:45 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:49:47 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
15:49:47 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
15:49:48 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
15:49:51 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
15:49:58 <Arnaud> 0
Arnaud Le Hors: 0 ←
15:50:02 <davidwood> RESOLVED: We'll request a media-type for this syntax which is different from the media-type for Turtle. (That is, we will not consider this language to supplant Turtle and take over the name, becoming the new "Turtle", as was once proposed.)
RESOLVED: We'll request a media-type for this syntax which is different from the media-type for Turtle. (That is, we will not consider this language to supplant Turtle and take over the name, becoming the new "Turtle", as was once proposed.) ←
15:50:02 <PatH> +0
Patrick Hayes: +0 ←
15:50:14 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Our dataset syntax will allow for the expression of empty named graphs, whatever their semantics might be (to be decided). The syntax is an empty curly-braces expression, as in "<g> { }".
PROPOSED: Our dataset syntax will allow for the expression of empty named graphs, whatever their semantics might be (to be decided). The syntax is an empty curly-braces expression, as in "<g> { }". ←
15:50:23 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
15:50:25 <gavinc> -0.999...
Gavin Carothers: -0.999... ←
15:50:38 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Our dataset syntax will allow for the expression of empty named graphs, whatever their semantics might be. The syntax is an empty curly-braces expression, as in "<g> { }".
PROPOSED: Our dataset syntax will allow for the expression of empty named graphs, whatever their semantics might be. The syntax is an empty curly-braces expression, as in "<g> { }". ←
15:50:43 <yvesr> -0.5
Yves Raimond: -0.5 ←
15:51:03 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
15:51:22 <pchampin> q+
q+ ←
15:51:30 <sandro> agreed gavinc
Sandro Hawke: agreed gavinc ←
15:51:35 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:51:55 <PatH> union
Patrick Hayes: union ←
15:51:56 <pchampin> q-
q- ←
15:51:56 <AndyS> gavinc's example -- <g> {} \n <g> {:s :p :o}
Andy Seaborne: gavinc's example -- <g> {} \n <g> {:s :p :o} ←
15:52:09 <PatH> Q
Patrick Hayes: Q ←
15:52:18 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
15:52:30 <davidwood> ack pchampin
David Wood: ack pchampin ←
15:52:37 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
15:52:44 <pchampin> gavin: the mention about the syntax may be confusing
Gavin Carothers: the mention about the syntax may be confusing ←
15:53:04 <pchampin> ... as further expressions may make the graph non-empty after all
... as further expressions may make the graph non-empty after all ←
15:53:15 <pchampin> ... (see example above quoted by AndyS)
... (see example above quoted by AndyS) ←
15:53:22 <Zakim> -cgreer
Zakim IRC Bot: -cgreer ←
15:53:46 <sandro> cygri: The abstract syntax of datasets makes a distinction between an empty named graph and the named graph not existing in the dataset. Given that, and no semantics, we need that distinction in the syntax.
Richard Cyganiak: The abstract syntax of datasets makes a distinction between an empty named graph and the named graph not existing in the dataset. Given that, and no semantics, we need that distinction in the syntax. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:53:47 <Zakim> +cgreer
Zakim IRC Bot: +cgreer ←
15:54:04 <sandro> +1 cygri
Sandro Hawke: +1 cygri ←
15:54:50 <pfps> +0.5 cygri
Peter Patel-Schneider: +0.5 cygri ←
15:54:54 <davidwood> ack PatH
David Wood: ack PatH ←
15:55:18 <AZ> the semantics is not defined at all
Antoine Zimmermann: the semantics is not defined at all ←
15:55:27 <pchampin> pat: the semantics of empty graphs is well defined; they are trivially true
Patrick Hayes: the semantics of empty graphs is well defined; they are trivially true ←
15:55:40 <AZ> (of empty *named* graph i mean)
Antoine Zimmermann: (of empty *named* graph i mean) ←
15:56:00 <pchampin> q+
q+ ←
15:56:21 <pchampin> ... there is another issue; what happens when someone empties a graph by deleting everything inside it?
... there is another issue; what happens when someone empties a graph by deleting everything inside it? ←
15:56:33 <gavinc> +q to say that I'm not saying that there are no empty graphs, just that empty graphs in a UNION syntax get funky
Gavin Carothers: +q to say that I'm not saying that there are no empty graphs, just that empty graphs in a UNION syntax get funky ←
15:56:35 <pchampin> ... (something about the impossible dataset, I didn't quite get it)
... (something about the impossible dataset, I didn't quite get it) ←
15:56:39 <davidwood> ack pchampin
David Wood: ack pchampin ←
15:56:57 <PatH> sound very broken
Patrick Hayes: sound very broken ←
15:57:00 <Zakim> +LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF ←
15:57:07 <sandro> q+ to reply to Gavin saying sure, but we can handle it.
Sandro Hawke: q+ to reply to Gavin saying sure, but we can handle it. ←
15:57:12 <ericP> SPARQL Update has DROP
Eric Prud'hommeaux: SPARQL Update has DROP ←
15:57:16 <PatH> we cant hear...
Patrick Hayes: we cant hear... ←
15:57:25 <ericP> ack
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ack ←
15:57:27 <ericP> ack me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ack me ←
15:57:35 <AndyS> SPARQL has CLEAR
Andy Seaborne: SPARQL has CLEAR ←
15:57:38 <MacTed> CLEAR empties the named graph; DROP drops the name
Ted Thibodeau: CLEAR empties the named graph; DROP drops the name ←
15:57:50 <pchampin> pchampin: is there a mechanism in SPARQL-update to remove a graph by name
Pierre-Antoine Champin: is there a mechanism in SPARQL-update to remove a graph by name ←
15:57:56 <pchampin> ... rather than removing all the triples in a named graph
... rather than removing all the triples in a named graph ←
15:58:05 <pchampin> ... which is different if empty graphs are allowed?
... which is different if empty graphs are allowed? ←
15:58:06 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:58:12 <pchampin> ack me
ack me ←
15:58:17 <MacTed> analogous to SQL DELETE * FROM table and DROP table
Ted Thibodeau: analogous to SQL DELETE * FROM table and DROP table ←
15:58:18 <davidwood> ack gavinc
David Wood: ack gavinc ←
15:58:18 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to say that I'm not saying that there are no empty graphs, just that empty graphs in a UNION syntax get funky
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc, you wanted to say that I'm not saying that there are no empty graphs, just that empty graphs in a UNION syntax get funky ←
15:58:22 <LeeF> SPARQL Update attempts to support quadstores by allowing stores to silently "remove" a graph that has no triples
Lee Feigenbaum: SPARQL Update attempts to support quadstores by allowing stores to silently "remove" a graph that has no triples ←
15:58:47 <LeeF> That is, SPARQL Update tries to let empty graphs be basically the same as non-existent graphs
Lee Feigenbaum: That is, SPARQL Update tries to let empty graphs be basically the same as non-existent graphs ←
15:59:06 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:59:09 <ericP> no one else can state it later *in the same document*
Eric Prud'hommeaux: no one else can state it later *in the same document* ←
15:59:27 <cygri> q-
Richard Cyganiak: q- ←
15:59:30 <pchampin> gavin: with the union semantics, it is strange to express empty graphs in Trig
Gavin Carothers: with the union semantics, it is strange to express empty graphs in Trig ←
15:59:31 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
15:59:31 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to reply to Gavin saying sure, but we can handle it.
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to reply to Gavin saying sure, but we can handle it. ←
15:59:42 <pchampin> ivan, pat, sandro: why???
ivan, pat, sandro: why??? ←
15:59:43 <sandro> PROPOSED: Our dataset syntax will allow for the expression of empty named graphs, whatever their semantics might be.
PROPOSED: Our dataset syntax will allow for the expression of empty named graphs, whatever their semantics might be. ←
15:59:52 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
15:59:58 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
15:59:59 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
16:00:02 <gavinc> +0
Gavin Carothers: +0 ←
16:00:02 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
16:00:03 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
16:00:03 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
16:00:06 <pchampin> +0
+0 ←
16:00:09 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
16:00:10 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
16:00:12 <SteveH> o AndyS �'s point, that sounds sigular
Steve Harris: o AndyS �'s point, that sounds sigular ←
16:00:15 <yvesr> +0
Yves Raimond: +0 ←
16:00:19 <SteveH> and n-quads can't represent that easily
Steve Harris: and n-quads can't represent that easily ←
16:00:30 <yvesr> SteveH, that was my main concern
Yves Raimond: SteveH, that was my main concern ←
16:00:30 <davidwood> RESOLVED: Our dataset syntax will allow for the expression of empty named graphs, whatever their semantics might be.
RESOLVED: Our dataset syntax will allow for the expression of empty named graphs, whatever their semantics might be. ←
16:00:33 <SteveH> out TriG-like?
Steve Harris: out TriG-like? ←
16:00:38 <SteveH> *our
Steve Harris: *our ←
16:00:40 <yvesr> SteveH, introducing some assymetry between n-quads and trig
Yves Raimond: SteveH, introducing some assymetry between n-quads and trig ←
16:00:41 <ericP> [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o>, <o2> } ]] - [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o2> } ]] == [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o> } ]] ? seems probably pretty uncontroversial
Eric Prud'hommeaux: [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o>, <o2> } ]] - [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o2> } ]] == [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o> } ]] ? seems probably pretty uncontroversial ←
16:00:45 <ericP> [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o> } ]] - [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o> } ]] == [[ <n> { } ]] ? or maybe [[ ]] ?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o> } ]] - [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o> } ]] == [[ <n> { } ]] ? or maybe [[ ]] ? ←
16:01:08 <sandro> this was about the trig-like syntax, yes.
Sandro Hawke: this was about the trig-like syntax, yes. ←
16:01:54 <davidwood> PROPOSED: We will call our recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig".
PROPOSED: We will call our recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig". ←
16:02:06 <davidwood> PROPOSED: We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig".
PROPOSED: We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig". ←
16:02:20 <sandro> davidwood: Yes, the empty named graph resolution was about trig, not n-quads (if we do that).
David Wood: Yes, the empty named graph resolution was about trig, not n-quads (if we do that). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:02:51 <ericP> wHAT'S wRONG wITH iT?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: wHAT'S wRONG wITH iT? ←
16:03:23 <gavinc> +0 no idea why it'
Gavin Carothers: +0 no idea why it' ←
16:03:29 <gavinc> s called TriG in the first
Gavin Carothers: s called TriG in the first ←
16:03:33 <ivan> -0.1
Ivan Herman: -0.1 ←
16:03:45 <Arnaud> -0.5
Arnaud Le Hors: -0.5 ←
16:03:57 <MacTed> +0
Ted Thibodeau: +0 ←
16:04:01 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
16:04:02 <pfps> =0 I have no opinion
Peter Patel-Schneider: =0 I have no opinion ←
16:04:11 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
16:04:14 <cygri> -0.1
Richard Cyganiak: -0.1 ←
16:04:18 <AndyS> The point about Turtle-related name is a good one - informally TriG will be used regardless but Turtle-NG is interesting.
Andy Seaborne: The point about Turtle-related name is a good one - informally TriG will be used regardless but Turtle-NG is interesting. ←
16:04:19 <sandro> arnaud: I'm concerned by the proliferation of formats.
Arnaud Le Hors: I'm concerned by the proliferation of formats. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:04:32 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
16:04:33 <LeeF> +1
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←
16:04:34 <yvesr> +0 (depends how close that serialisation ends up being to existing TriG)
Yves Raimond: +0 (depends how close that serialisation ends up being to existing TriG) ←
16:04:37 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:04:44 <AZ> +1.1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1.1 ←
16:04:49 <AZ> oops +0.1
Antoine Zimmermann: oops +0.1 ←
16:04:58 <SteveH> -0.1
Steve Harris: -0.1 ←
16:05:00 <pchampin> arnaud: I understand why TriG should be distinct from Turtle,
Arnaud Le Hors: I understand why TriG should be distinct from Turtle, ←
16:05:14 <pchampin> ... but I'm affraid the proliferation of formats would hinder adoption
... but I'm affraid the proliferation of formats would hinder adoption ←
16:05:16 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:05:18 <sandro> sandro: TriG is like tar or zip; nothing like turtle....
Sandro Hawke: TriG is like tar or zip; nothing like turtle.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:05:30 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
16:05:38 <pchampin> ... I understand the technical arguments, but from a marketting point of view it sounds bad
... I understand the technical arguments, but from a marketting point of view it sounds bad ←
16:05:51 <SteveH> I don't think we have a resolution
Steve Harris: I don't think we have a resolution ←
16:05:59 <pchampin> ivan: I agree with Arnaud
Ivan Herman: I agree with Arnaud ←
16:07:05 <Guus> +1 to Arnaud's point; prefer not to resolve
Guus Schreiber: +1 to Arnaud's point; prefer not to resolve ←
16:07:09 <gavinc> Turtle Dataset Extension?
Gavin Carothers: Turtle Dataset Extension? ←
16:07:10 <sandro> votes other than -1 and +1 don't actually count, formally.
Sandro Hawke: votes other than -1 and +1 don't actually count, formally. ←
16:07:32 <SteveH> sandro, how do we abstain then? that's what I wanted to do
Steve Harris: sandro, how do we abstain then? that's what I wanted to do ←
16:07:39 <Guus> wrt media type, i mean
Guus Schreiber: wrt media type, i mean ←
16:07:50 <sandro> well, sure, you abstained -- that means not counting, right?
Sandro Hawke: well, sure, you abstained -- that means not counting, right? ←
16:07:59 <MacTed> . o O ( Turtle++? Turtle#? Turtle-bis? )
Ted Thibodeau: . o O ( Turtle++? Turtle#? Turtle-bis? ) ←
16:08:17 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
16:08:26 <Guus> Turtle4G
Guus Schreiber: Turtle4G ←
16:08:27 <pchampin> ivan: we have two very similar language, and instead of stressing out the similarity, we introduce a completely different name
Ivan Herman: we have two very similar language, and instead of stressing out the similarity, we introduce a completely different name ←
16:08:31 <SteveH> sandro, I didn't believe so, but I'm confident y��ur knowledge of process is better than mi�ne
Steve Harris: sandro, I didn't believe so, but I'm confident y��ur knowledge of process is better than mi�ne ←
16:08:46 <MacTed> Turtle-for-Datasets (TFD)?
Ted Thibodeau: Turtle-for-Datasets (TFD)? ←
16:09:06 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:09:41 <SteveH> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
16:09:57 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:10:05 <sandro> "Turtle Package Language"
Sandro Hawke: "Turtle Package Language" ←
16:10:08 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
16:10:10 <sandro> TurtlePack
Sandro Hawke: TurtlePack ←
16:10:15 <LeeF> I support TriG being separate from Turtle, but it even sounds like a complicated story to me nonetheless :-)
Lee Feigenbaum: I support TriG being separate from Turtle, but it even sounds like a complicated story to me nonetheless :-) ←
16:10:26 <pchampin> david: I think that it is not that complicated, provided that we give the appropriate guidance to people in using those different languages
David Wood: I think that it is not that complicated, provided that we give the appropriate guidance to people in using those different languages ←
16:10:33 <gavinc> ....
Gavin Carothers: .... ←
16:10:34 <MacTed> TurtleShell!
Ted Thibodeau: TurtleShell! ←
16:10:51 <ericP> turtle's hell?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: turtle's hell? ←
16:10:54 <ericP> come use the RDF Semantic Web Linked Data RDFS OWL SPARQL RIF RDF/XML Turtle TRIG NQuads JSON-LD stack
Eric Prud'hommeaux: come use the RDF Semantic Web Linked Data RDFS OWL SPARQL RIF RDF/XML Turtle TRIG NQuads JSON-LD stack ←
16:10:55 <gavinc> Turtle{}
Gavin Carothers: Turtle{} ←
16:10:55 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:11:00 <davidwood> ack SteveH
David Wood: ack SteveH ←
16:11:35 <pchampin> steveh: I abstain because I wait to see what it looks like to decide how it should be named
Steve Harris: I abstain because I wait to see what it looks like to decide how it should be named ←
16:11:38 <PatH> if it quacks like a turtle..? Hmmm.
Patrick Hayes: if it quacks like a turtle..? Hmmm. ←
16:11:53 <pchampin> ... if it looks like TriG, let's call it TriG
... if it looks like TriG, let's call it TriG ←
16:12:24 <ivan> q-
Ivan Herman: q- ←
16:12:25 <pchampin> sandro: true, we can defer that decision
Sandro Hawke: true, we can defer that decision ←
16:12:55 <davidwood> NOT RESOLVED: We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig".
David Wood: NOT RESOLVED: We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig". ←
16:13:02 <pchampin> ivan: I think the last proposal was not resolved
Ivan Herman: I think the last proposal was not resolved ←
16:13:09 <PatH> 3 minutes to go.
Patrick Hayes: 3 minutes to go. ←
16:13:14 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
16:13:14 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
16:13:22 <LeeF> Is there another proposal that has more support?
Lee Feigenbaum: Is there another proposal that has more support? ←
16:13:30 <gavinc> Nameless Graph Syntax
Gavin Carothers: Nameless Graph Syntax ←
16:13:43 <cygri> AndyS, that's taken: http://code.google.com/p/oort/wiki/Grit
Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, that's taken: http://code.google.com/p/oort/wiki/Grit ←
16:13:47 <davidwood> PROPOSED: We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig".
PROPOSED: We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig". ←
16:13:49 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
16:13:50 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
16:13:51 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
16:13:51 <cgreer> +1
Charles Greer: +1 ←
16:13:51 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
16:13:52 <LeeF> +1
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←
16:13:52 <gavinc> 0
Gavin Carothers: 0 ←
16:13:54 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
16:13:54 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
16:13:54 <SteveH> 0
Steve Harris: 0 ←
16:13:56 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
16:13:59 <ivan> -0.9999...
Ivan Herman: -0.9 ←
16:14:06 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:14:07 <pchampin> +0
+0 ←
16:14:12 <AZ> +0.1
Antoine Zimmermann: +0.1 ←
16:14:12 <yvesr> +0 (for the same reason as above!)
Yves Raimond: +0 (for the same reason as above!) ←
16:14:13 <cygri> -0.2
Richard Cyganiak: -0.2 ←
16:14:18 <Guus> -0.5
Guus Schreiber: -0.5 ←
16:14:20 <Arnaud> -0.5
Arnaud Le Hors: -0.5 ←
16:14:34 <ivan> this is not a formal objection, just making my opinion clear...
Ivan Herman: this is not a formal objection, just making my opinion clear... ←
16:14:36 <gavinc> in fact it is = to -1
Gavin Carothers: in fact it is = to -1 ←
16:14:43 <PatH> passed with a scrape from ivans fender
Patrick Hayes: passed with a scrape from ivans fender ←
16:15:13 <davidwood> RESOLVED: We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig".
RESOLVED: We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig". ←
16:15:13 <sandro> people aren'y happy, but they can live with it.
Sandro Hawke: people aren'y happy, but they can live with it. ←
16:15:18 <ivan> s/-0.9999.../-0.9/
16:15:20 <Guus> right
Guus Schreiber: right ←
16:15:28 <davidwood> PROPOSED: In our dataset syntax, a "=" MUST NOT appear between the name and the graph.
PROPOSED: In our dataset syntax, a "=" MUST NOT appear between the name and the graph. ←
16:15:33 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:15:33 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
16:15:42 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
16:15:45 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
16:15:47 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
16:15:48 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
16:15:49 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:15:50 <Guus> +1
Guus Schreiber: +1 ←
16:15:51 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
16:15:52 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
16:15:52 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
16:15:53 <pchampin> +1
+1 ←
16:15:54 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
16:15:58 <LeeF> +1
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←
16:15:59 <yvesr> +0.5
Yves Raimond: +0.5 ←
16:16:02 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
16:16:05 <cygri> where "our dataset syntax" is the TriG-like one
Richard Cyganiak: where "our dataset syntax" is the TriG-like one ←
16:16:12 <pchampin> sandro: "=" was optional in the original TriG syntax, but
Sandro Hawke: "=" was optional in the original TriG syntax, but ←
16:16:14 <gavinc> yay, draft now matches resolution ;)
Gavin Carothers: yay, draft now matches resolution ;) ←
16:16:14 <sandro> yes, indeed.
Sandro Hawke: yes, indeed. ←
16:16:17 <cgreer> +1
Charles Greer: +1 ←
16:16:17 <pchampin> ... people rarely used it, and
... people rarely used it, and ←
16:16:22 <pchampin> ... it does not match the semantics
... it does not match the semantics ←
16:16:23 <davidwood> RESOLVED: In our TriG dataset syntax, a "=" MUST NOT appear between the name and the graph.
RESOLVED: In our TriG dataset syntax, a "=" MUST NOT appear between the name and the graph. ←
16:16:36 <davidwood> PROPOSED: In our TriG dataset syntax, the case-insensitive keyword "graph" MUST NOT appear before the name, in a name-graph pair.
PROPOSED: In our TriG dataset syntax, the case-insensitive keyword "graph" MUST NOT appear before the name, in a name-graph pair. ←
16:16:43 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:16:46 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
16:16:52 <yvesr> that's a concern with calling the syntax TriG though, as it's not anymore compatible with old-TriG
Yves Raimond: that's a concern with calling the syntax TriG though, as it's not anymore compatible with old-TriG ←
16:16:53 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
16:17:07 <cygri> pchampin, i'm just being pedantic
Richard Cyganiak: pchampin, i'm just being pedantic ←
16:17:12 <SteveH> yvesr, yes, but in practice no-one used the =
Steve Harris: yvesr, yes, but in practice no-one used the = ←
16:17:13 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
16:17:13 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
16:17:21 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
16:17:22 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
16:17:49 <pchampin> ivan: the problem with the GRAPH keyword,
Ivan Herman: the problem with the GRAPH keyword, ←
16:18:05 <pchampin> ... but we are creating a strange incompatibility with Turtle
... but we are creating a strange incompatibility with Turtle ←
16:18:28 <SteveH> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
16:18:29 <gavinc> yes well allowing BASE and PREFIX was a mistake, but no one else seems to think so :P
Gavin Carothers: yes well allowing BASE and PREFIX was a mistake, but no one else seems to think so :P ←
16:18:41 <pchampin> ... where we have accepted SPARQL-like constructs
... where we have accepted SPARQL-like constructs ←
16:18:41 <SteveH> allowing BOTH was a mistake
Steve Harris: allowing BOTH was a mistake ←
16:18:44 <davidwood> ack SteveH
David Wood: ack SteveH ←
16:19:04 <gavinc> +1 SteveH
Gavin Carothers: +1 SteveH ←
16:19:23 <pchampin> steveh: I thought this was a feature "at-risk"
Steve Harris: I thought this was a feature "at-risk" ←
16:19:38 <pchampin> ... so it might not be kept anyway
... so it might not be kept anyway ←
16:19:57 <PatH> +1 to "at risk"
Patrick Hayes: +1 to "at risk" ←
16:19:59 <pchampin> ivan: ok, so I would put it "at-risk" in our TriG as well
Ivan Herman: ok, so I would put it "at-risk" in our TriG as well ←
16:20:08 <davidwood> PROPOSED: In our TriG dataset syntax, the case-insensitive keyword "graph" MUST NOT appear before the name, in a name-graph pair. This is to be an "at risk" feature.
PROPOSED: In our TriG dataset syntax, the case-insensitive keyword "graph" MUST NOT appear before the name, in a name-graph pair. This is to be an "at risk" feature. ←
16:20:10 <pchampin> ... depending on the outcome of Turtle
... depending on the outcome of Turtle ←
16:20:14 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:20:19 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
16:20:23 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
16:20:23 <LeeF> +1
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←
16:20:25 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
16:20:26 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
16:20:26 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
16:20:31 <MacTed> +1 as revised
Ted Thibodeau: +1 as revised ←
16:20:31 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:20:34 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
16:20:34 <cygri> ±0
Richard Cyganiak: ±0 ←
16:20:43 <AndyS> +1 (make the at risk related to TTL)
Andy Seaborne: +1 (make the at risk related to TTL) ←
16:20:43 <sandro> (the AT RISK be between "MUST NOT" and "MAY")
Sandro Hawke: (the AT RISK be between "MUST NOT" and "MAY") ←
16:21:01 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
16:21:05 <cgreer> +1
Charles Greer: +1 ←
16:21:09 <pchampin> +0
+0 ←
16:21:21 <davidwood> RESOLVED: In our TriG dataset syntax, the case-insensitive keyword "graph" MUST NOT appear before the name, in a name-graph pair. This is to be an "at risk" feature.
RESOLVED: In our TriG dataset syntax, the case-insensitive keyword "graph" MUST NOT appear before the name, in a name-graph pair. This is to be an "at risk" feature. ←
16:21:57 <Zakim> -ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -ivan ←
16:21:57 <PatH> ✈
Patrick Hayes: ✈ ←
16:21:58 <Zakim> -gkellogg
Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg ←
16:21:59 <Zakim> -cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri ←
16:22:00 <Zakim> -ScottB
Zakim IRC Bot: -ScottB ←
16:22:00 <Zakim> -yvesr
Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr ←
16:22:01 <gavinc> trailing . is in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/trig/index.html#sec-graph-statements
Gavin Carothers: trailing . is in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/trig/index.html#sec-graph-statements ←
16:22:01 <Zakim> -davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood ←
16:22:01 <Zakim> -SteveH
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH ←
16:22:02 <sandro> sandro: we're just left with "default graph" stuff.
Sandro Hawke: we're just left with "default graph" stuff. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:22:02 <Zakim> - +1.408.996.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.408.996.aaaa ←
16:22:04 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
16:22:06 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
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