15:01:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/21-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/21-rdf-wg-irc ←
15:01:14 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
15:01:16 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
15:01:16 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now ←
15:01:17 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:01:17 <trackbot> Date: 21 March 2012
15:01:34 <gavinc> Zakim, this is 73394
Gavin Carothers: Zakim, this is 73394 ←
15:01:36 <Zakim> ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
15:01:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is on the phone?
David Wood: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:01:52 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus_Schreiber ←
15:01:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, bhyland, sandro, +1.603.897.aaaa, Arnaud, pfps, Guus_Schreiber
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, bhyland, sandro, +1.603.897.aaaa, Arnaud, pfps, Guus_Schreiber ←
15:02:03 <davidwood> Zakim, bhyland is me
David Wood: Zakim, bhyland is me ←
15:02:08 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
15:02:14 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it ←
15:02:27 <Zakim> +cgreer
Zakim IRC Bot: +cgreer ←
15:02:42 <Zakim> +??P25
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25 ←
15:02:46 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
15:02:48 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
15:02:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, davidwood, sandro, +1.603.897.aaaa, Arnaud, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, EricP, cgreer, ??P25
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, davidwood, sandro, +1.603.897.aaaa, Arnaud, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, EricP, cgreer, ??P25 ←
15:02:49 <AndyS1> zakim, ??P25 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P25 is me ←
15:02:56 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
15:02:57 <Zakim> +AndyS1; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS1; got it ←
15:02:59 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
15:03:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see AndyS1, SteveH, cgreer, Zakim, Guus, RRSAgent, Souri, Arnaud, gavinc, mischat, pfps, MacTed, LeeF, AndyS, ivan, mdmdm, yvesr, manu1, davidwood, NickH, trackbot, manu,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see AndyS1, SteveH, cgreer, Zakim, Guus, RRSAgent, Souri, Arnaud, gavinc, mischat, pfps, MacTed, LeeF, AndyS, ivan, mdmdm, yvesr, manu1, davidwood, NickH, trackbot, manu, ←
15:03:06 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... sandro, ericP ←
15:03:13 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aabb ←
15:03:17 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me
Alex Hall: zakim, aabb is me ←
15:03:18 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it ←
15:03:26 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
15:03:32 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:03:32 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:03:33 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:03:34 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:03:36 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:03:37 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
15:03:38 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2 ←
15:03:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, davidwood, sandro, +1.603.897.aaaa, Arnaud, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, EricP, cgreer, AndyS1, Ivan, AlexHall, MacTed (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, davidwood, sandro, +1.603.897.aaaa, Arnaud, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, EricP, cgreer, AndyS1, Ivan, AlexHall, MacTed (muted) ←
15:04:17 <gavinc> http://www.random.org/coins/
Gavin Carothers: http://www.random.org/coins/ ←
15:04:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see zwu2, AlexHall, AndyS1, SteveH, cgreer, Zakim, Guus, RRSAgent, Souri, Arnaud, gavinc, mischat, pfps, MacTed, LeeF, AndyS, ivan, mdmdm, yvesr, manu1, davidwood, NickH,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see zwu2, AlexHall, AndyS1, SteveH, cgreer, Zakim, Guus, RRSAgent, Souri, Arnaud, gavinc, mischat, pfps, MacTed, LeeF, AndyS, ivan, mdmdm, yvesr, manu1, davidwood, NickH, ←
15:04:24 <Zakim> ... trackbot, manu, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot, manu, sandro, ericP ←
15:04:34 <Zakim> +zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2 ←
15:04:50 <Guus> any volunteer for scribing?
Guus Schreiber: any volunteer for scribing? ←
15:05:26 <Zakim> +??P36
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P36 ←
15:05:26 <Zakim> +LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF ←
15:05:33 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P36 is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P36 is me ←
15:05:33 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it ←
15:05:52 <ericP> You flipped 1 coin of type Polish 5 Złoty:
Eric Prud'hommeaux: You flipped 1 coin of type Polish 5 Złoty: ←
15:06:33 <Zakim> +??P38
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P38 ←
15:06:41 <Zakim> -pfps
Zakim IRC Bot: -pfps ←
15:06:43 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
(Scribe set to Eric Prud'hommeaux)
15:06:56 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy? ←
15:06:58 <NickH> Zakim, ??P38 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, ??P38 is me ←
15:06:58 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
15:07:03 <NickH> Zakim, mute me
Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, mute me ←
15:07:03 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted ←
15:07:07 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gavinc (7%), ??P38 (15%), EricP (52%)
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gavinc (7%), ??P38 (15%), EricP (52%) ←
15:07:29 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:07:29 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
15:07:40 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:07:40 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:07:41 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:07:41 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted ←
15:07:57 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:07:57 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
15:08:08 <gavinc> the click seems to be zakim?
Gavin Carothers: the click seems to be zakim? ←
15:08:23 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:08:23 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:08:25 <Zakim> -AndyS1
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS1 ←
15:08:28 <MacTed> Zakim, mute ericP
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute ericP ←
15:08:28 <Zakim> EricP should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: EricP should now be muted ←
15:08:29 <MacTed> :-)
Ted Thibodeau: :-) ←
15:08:36 <ericP> weak!
weak! ←
15:08:41 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
15:08:53 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
15:09:05 <gavinc> click, click, click
Gavin Carothers: click, click, click ←
15:09:11 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:09:21 <AndyS1> zakim, IPCaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me ←
15:09:21 <Zakim> +AndyS1; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS1; got it ←
15:09:24 <gavinc> Ah, that must be AndyS in a snowstorm
Gavin Carothers: Ah, that must be AndyS in a snowstorm ←
15:10:37 <Guus> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 14 Mar telecon:
Guus Schreiber: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 14 Mar telecon: ←
15:10:50 <ericP> RESOLVED
RESOLVED ←
15:11:16 <ericP> topic: action item review
15:11:34 <ericP> Guus: Turtle actions will be taken up in Turtle agendum
Guus Schreiber: Turtle actions will be taken up in Turtle agendum ←
15:11:36 <Zakim> -AndyS1
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS1 ←
15:11:46 <ericP> ... Sandro and I owe actions
... Sandro and I owe actions ←
15:12:18 <ericP> topic: getting Turtle to LC
15:12:29 <gavinc> I claim victory on ACTION-154!
Gavin Carothers: I claim victory on ACTION-154! ←
15:12:37 <gavinc> ACTION-150?
Gavin Carothers: ACTION-150? ←
15:12:37 <trackbot> ACTION-150 -- Gavin Carothers to fail to update Turtle/N-Triples grammar to not use \u escaping in the local part of prefix names -- due 2012-03-21 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-150 -- Gavin Carothers to fail to update Turtle/N-Triples grammar to not use \u escaping in the local part of prefix names -- due 2012-03-21 -- OPEN ←
15:12:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/150
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/150 ←
15:12:50 <Zakim> +??P25
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25 ←
15:13:06 <AndyS1> zakim, ??P25 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P25 is me ←
15:13:06 <Zakim> +AndyS1; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS1; got it ←
15:14:30 <ericP> Guus: do we need to discussion the ":"s in local names issue?
Guus Schreiber: do we need to discussion the ":"s in local names issue? ←
15:14:37 <cygri> zakim, code?
Richard Cyganiak: zakim, code? ←
15:14:37 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), cygri ←
15:14:44 <ericP> gavinc: since i didn't file the issue in time, i suspect we'll do nothing about it
Gavin Carothers: since i didn't file the issue in time, i suspect we'll do nothing about it ←
15:14:50 <ericP> ... i'm mostly okay with that
... i'm mostly okay with that ←
15:15:03 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
Zakim IRC Bot: +mhausenblas ←
15:15:04 <ericP> ... creates some probs for a poor vocab proposed by facebook
... creates some probs for a poor vocab proposed by facebook ←
15:15:07 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
Richard Cyganiak: zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me ←
15:15:07 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it ←
15:15:42 <LeeF> colons? wacky
Lee Feigenbaum: colons? wacky ←
15:15:43 <ericP> ... Facebook uses ":"s in local part of propery names
... Facebook uses ":"s in local part of propery names ←
15:15:50 <ericP> ivan: already widely used?
Ivan Herman: already widely used? ←
15:15:54 <ericP> gavinc: yup
Gavin Carothers: yup ←
15:15:59 <ericP> ack me
ack me ←
15:16:28 <ericP> CONTINUE ACTION-152
CONTINUE ACTION-152 ←
15:16:39 <zwu2> yes
15:16:47 <ericP> ACTION-153 DONE
ACTION-153 DONE ←
15:16:57 <AndyS1> example - og:video:height
Andy Seaborne: example - og:video:height ←
15:17:06 <AndyS1> http://developers.facebook.com/docs/opengraphprotocol/
Andy Seaborne: http://developers.facebook.com/docs/opengraphprotocol/ ←
15:17:36 <ericP> ACTION-154
15:17:50 <ericP> gavinc: we keep the case-sensitivity
Gavin Carothers: we keep the case-sensitivity ←
15:17:54 <AndyS1> The "og:" is effectively a prefix part, the "video:height" is effectively a local part
Andy Seaborne: The "og:" is effectively a prefix part, the "video:height" is effectively a local part ←
15:17:58 <ericP> ... i'll remove the change note
... i'll remove the change note ←
15:18:29 <ericP> ACTION-154 DONE
ACTION-154 DONE ←
15:18:57 <ericP> Guus: note that next week's telecon returns to CT's 5pm
Guus Schreiber: note that next week's telecon returns to CT's 5pm ←
15:18:57 <PatH> Sorry Im late.
Patrick Hayes: Sorry Im late. ←
15:19:59 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
15:20:10 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
15:20:10 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should no longer be muted ←
15:20:12 <zwu2> q+
15:20:19 <ericP> gavinc: issues were relationship between texp/plain and application/ntriples
Gavin Carothers: issues were relationship between texp/plain and application/ntriples ←
15:20:29 <ericP> ... and @@1
... and @@1 ←
15:20:46 <Zakim> +pfps
Zakim IRC Bot: +pfps ←
15:21:03 <ericP> zwu2: we'd like to see clarification of consequences of using new encoding on old tool
Zhe Wu: we'd like to see clarification of consequences of using new encoding on old tool ←
15:21:26 <PatH> zakim, mute me.
Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me. ←
15:21:26 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted ←
15:21:29 <ericP> gavinc: can we say "there may be some issues" instead of "you should continue to serve ntriples as US-ASCII"?
Gavin Carothers: can we say "there may be some issues" instead of "you should continue to serve ntriples as US-ASCII"? ←
15:21:37 <ericP> zwu2: agree to a large extent
Zhe Wu: agree to a large extent ←
15:21:52 <ericP> ... but for maximum backward-compatibility, one should
... but for maximum backward-compatibility, one should ←
15:22:10 <ericP> ... is it acceptable to include that qualifier [in the spec]?
... is it acceptable to include that qualifier [in the spec]? ←
15:22:14 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:22:21 <ericP> gavinc: i'm not ok with that but willing to defer to the WG
Gavin Carothers: i'm not ok with that but willing to defer to the WG ←
15:22:29 <ericP> ... many tools today already accept UTF8
... many tools today already accept UTF8 ←
15:22:38 <AndyS1> which existing tools actually look at the Content-Type (and charset)?
Andy Seaborne: which existing tools actually look at the Content-Type (and charset)? ←
15:22:44 <ericP> zwu2: there are many tools which do not accept the new encoding
Zhe Wu: there are many tools which do not accept the new encoding ←
15:23:01 <ericP> davidwood: that doesn't mean we should prefer ASCII for the next 10 years
David Wood: that doesn't mean we should prefer ASCII for the next 10 years ←
15:23:21 <davidwood> We should *allow*, but not *prefer* ASCII
David Wood: We should *allow*, but not *prefer* ASCII ←
15:23:50 <ericP> zwu2: for this new encoding to work with tools, shouldn't we document the backward-compatibility path?
Zhe Wu: for this new encoding to work with tools, shouldn't we document the backward-compatibility path? ←
15:23:52 <cygri> q?
Richard Cyganiak: q? ←
15:24:18 <ericP> davidwood: as long as ASCII is allowed, how does it hurt backward-compatibility even if it's not preferred?
David Wood: as long as ASCII is allowed, how does it hurt backward-compatibility even if it's not preferred? ←
15:24:43 <PatH> The issue I think is that to express any kind of preference for ASCII might (we hope) be archaic some years from now, even if it is accurate now.
Patrick Hayes: The issue I think is that to express any kind of preference for ASCII might (we hope) be archaic some years from now, even if it is accurate now. ←
15:24:44 <ericP> zwu2: supposed you create an ntriples file in two years, and then i feed it to rapper
Zhe Wu: supposed you create an ntriples file in two years, and then i feed it to rapper ←
15:25:04 <ericP> ... it will fail. should we have a warning indicating these consequences
... it will fail. should we have a warning indicating these consequences ←
15:25:20 <ericP> note that this is *forward* compatibility
note that this is *forward* compatibility ←
15:25:37 <ericP> new data on old tools
new data on old tools ←
15:25:49 <cygri> q?
Richard Cyganiak: q? ←
15:25:52 <PatH> it is a delicate matter of wording and nuance.
Patrick Hayes: it is a delicate matter of wording and nuance. ←
15:26:31 <ericP> gavinc: i propose to propose some text over the next week. good enough?
Gavin Carothers: i propose to propose some text over the next week. good enough? ←
15:26:46 <ericP> Guus: let's leave that to editorial discretion
Guus Schreiber: let's leave that to editorial discretion ←
15:26:52 <Guus> ack zwu
Guus Schreiber: ack zwu ←
15:26:59 <Guus> ack cygri
Guus Schreiber: ack cygri ←
15:27:12 <ericP> cygri: it may not be necessary to say what people should do in what case, instead just the facts:
Richard Cyganiak: it may not be necessary to say what people should do in what case, instead just the facts: ←
15:27:31 <ericP> ... utf8 and us-ascii are both valid encodings for turtle
... utf8 and us-ascii are both valid encodings for turtle ←
15:27:43 <PatH> +1 to richard
Patrick Hayes: +1 to richard ←
15:27:43 <ericP> ... some legacy systems do not handle utf8
... some legacy systems do not handle utf8 ←
15:27:53 <gavinc> +1 richard
Gavin Carothers: +1 richard ←
15:28:05 <AlexHall> +1, describe the technical issues and let people decide
Alex Hall: +1, describe the technical issues and let people decide ←
15:28:06 <ericP> gavinc: yes [going in this direction]
Gavin Carothers: yes [going in this direction] ←
15:28:27 <ericP> cygri: it's reasonable to point out that conventional tools don't handle utf-8
Richard Cyganiak: it's reasonable to point out that conventional tools don't handle utf-8 ←
15:28:29 <PatH> could also say, at the time of writing....
Patrick Hayes: could also say, at the time of writing.... ←
15:28:46 <ericP> Guus: let's leave this as useful input to the editors
Guus Schreiber: let's leave this as useful input to the editors ←
15:28:52 <gavinc> +1 PatH, and include the date ;)
Gavin Carothers: +1 PatH, and include the date ;) ←
15:28:55 <cygri> "at the time of writing" sounds reasonable
Richard Cyganiak: "at the time of writing" sounds reasonable ←
15:29:23 <ivan> issue-73?
15:29:23 <trackbot> ISSUE-73 -- IRI_REF vs. IRIref -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-73 -- IRI_REF vs. IRIref -- open ←
15:29:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/73
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/73 ←
15:29:43 <ericP> Guus: we agreed that you three work this out
Guus Schreiber: we agreed that you three work this out ←
15:29:49 <AndyS1> Is done in SPARQL.
Andy Seaborne: Is done in SPARQL. ←
15:29:49 <ericP> gavinc: i think we have
Gavin Carothers: i think we have ←
15:30:38 <ericP> AndyS1: action told us to get our act together off-list
Andy Seaborne: action told us to get our act together off-list ←
15:30:56 <ericP> ... i have changed the sparql grammar
... i have changed the sparql grammar ←
15:30:58 <ericP> ack me
ack me ←
15:31:30 <gavinc> IRI_REF => IRIREF
Gavin Carothers: IRI_REF => IRIREF ←
15:31:31 <gavinc> IRIRef => iri
Gavin Carothers: IRIRef => iri ←
15:31:33 <gavinc> IRIRefOrFunction => iriOrFunction
Gavin Carothers: IRIRefOrFunction => iriOrFunction ←
15:31:34 <gavinc> VarOrIRIref => VarOrIri
Gavin Carothers: VarOrIRIref => VarOrIri ←
15:31:38 <PatH> it has consequences throughout the documents though, so get it right, guys. ;
Patrick Hayes: it has consequences throughout the documents though, so get it right, guys. ; ←
15:32:49 <ericP> these productions have consequences in the turtle semantics (parsing rules) as well
these productions have consequences in the turtle semantics (parsing rules) as well ←
15:32:59 <PatH> I was under the naive impression that
Patrick Hayes: I was under the naive impression that ←
15:33:28 <gavinc> PROPOSE Resolve Issue-73 by changing the following productions in Turtle: IRI_REF => IRIREF, IRIRef => iri, IRIRefOrFunction => iriOrFunction, VarOrIRIref => VarOrIri
Gavin Carothers: PROPOSE Resolve ISSUE-73 by changing the following productions in Turtle: IRI_REF => IRIREF, IRIRef => iri, IRIRefOrFunction => iriOrFunction, VarOrIRIref => VarOrIri ←
15:33:29 <PatH> IRI didnt need to have ref added :-(
Patrick Hayes: IRI didnt need to have ref added :-( ←
15:33:50 <ericP> ack me
ack me ←
15:34:11 <PatH> not disputing, just muddled.
Patrick Hayes: not disputing, just muddled. ←
15:34:27 <AndyS1> iri is prefix name and <...>
Andy Seaborne: iri is prefix name and <...> ←
15:34:38 <AndyS1> IRIREF is the <...> from RFC
Andy Seaborne: IRIREF is the <...> from RFC ←
15:34:43 <AndyS1> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
15:34:46 <ericP> +1
+1 ←
15:34:49 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
15:34:50 <PatH> +0
Patrick Hayes: +0 ←
15:35:06 <ericP> RESOLVED
RESOLVED ←
15:36:04 <ericP> RESOLVED: Resolve Issue-73 by changing the following productions in Turtle: IRI_REF => IRIREF, IRIRef => iri, IRIRefOrFunction => iriOrFunction, VarOrIRIref => VarOrIri
RESOLVED: Resolve ISSUE-73 by changing the following productions in Turtle: IRI_REF => IRIREF, IRIRef => iri, IRIRefOrFunction => iriOrFunction, VarOrIRIref => VarOrIri ←
15:36:29 <AndyS1> issue-74?
15:36:29 <trackbot> ISSUE-74 -- Prefixed names and slashes -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-74 -- Prefixed names and slashes -- open ←
15:36:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/74
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/74 ←
15:37:02 <ericP> yep
yep ←
15:37:36 <ericP> Guus: are we still on track for publication next week?
Guus Schreiber: are we still on track for publication next week? ←
15:37:44 <Zakim> +??P3
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3 ←
15:37:53 <ericP> gavinc: i believe we can have somehting for folks to review next week.
Gavin Carothers: i believe we can have somehting for folks to review next week. ←
15:37:59 <AZ> zakim, ??P3 is me
Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, ??P3 is me ←
15:37:59 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it ←
15:38:08 <ericP> ... i don't think adding a week [before review] would help
... i don't think adding a week [before review] would help ←
15:38:24 <ericP> Guus: we keep to current schedule
Guus Schreiber: we keep to current schedule ←
15:38:48 <ericP> ... two reviews expected 9 April, so possible decision to publish 11 April
... two reviews expected 9 April, so possible decision to publish 11 April ←
15:39:06 <ericP> ... Andy brought up tests. when should we discuss them?
... Andy brought up tests. when should we discuss them? ←
15:39:19 <ericP> ... we can discuss them during LC
... we can discuss them during LC ←
15:39:35 <ericP> gavinc: i originally volunteered to write test cases for turtle
Gavin Carothers: i originally volunteered to write test cases for turtle ←
15:40:05 <ericP> ... won't get to them before LC
... won't get to them before LC ←
15:40:11 <ericP> topic: named graph semantics
15:40:12 <PatH> zakim, unmute me.
Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me. ←
15:40:12 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted ←
15:40:15 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me
Gavin Carothers: Zakim, mute me ←
15:40:15 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc should now be muted ←
15:40:42 <ericP> Guus: we spent some time last week
Guus Schreiber: we spent some time last week ←
15:41:00 <ericP> PatH: may i have another week to write up the idea discussed last week
Patrick Hayes: may i have another week to write up the idea discussed last week ←
15:41:10 <ericP> Guus: would like concrete actions to work out examples
Guus Schreiber: would like concrete actions to work out examples ←
15:41:27 <ericP> ... i'm worried about how to explain this to folks outside WG
... i'm worried about how to explain this to folks outside WG ←
15:41:40 <ericP> ... could work that out as draft text in the primer
... could work that out as draft text in the primer ←
15:41:52 <ericP> ... i liked PatH's text which described what happens on import
... i liked PatH's text which described what happens on import ←
15:42:07 <ericP> ... which everyone does
... which everyone does ←
15:42:14 <PatH> I will try to write it as primer-level text.
Patrick Hayes: I will try to write it as primer-level text. ←
15:42:24 <ericP> PatH: draft text for Primer would be useful
Patrick Hayes: draft text for Primer would be useful ←
15:42:44 <PatH> ok, sounds great
Patrick Hayes: ok, sounds great ←
15:43:04 <ericP> ACTION: Guus to draft Primer text on importing named graphs
ACTION: Guus to draft Primer text on importing named graphs ←
15:43:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-159 - Draft Primer text on importing named graphs [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-03-28].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-159 - Draft Primer text on importing named graphs [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-03-28]. ←
15:43:29 <ericP> Guus: would be nice to apply use cases to PatH's proposal
Guus Schreiber: would be nice to apply use cases to PatH's proposal ←
15:43:47 <PatH> fwiw, the point i am having trouble with is having an
Patrick Hayes: fwiw, the point i am having trouble with is having an ←
15:44:21 <PatH> iri denote one thing while also indicating a context.
Patrick Hayes: iri denote one thing while also indicating a context. ←
15:45:01 <ericP> PatH: the biggest prob is having an iri able to identify both an e.g. person or context
Patrick Hayes: the biggest prob is having an iri able to identify both an e.g. person or context ←
15:45:06 <ericP> ack me
ack me ←
15:45:16 <pfps> I'm not sure what the problem is here.
Peter Patel-Schneider: I'm not sure what the problem is here. ←
15:45:26 <AndyS1> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
15:45:50 <ericP> ... the fourth field could be any uri, e.g. used to identify an e.g. person
... the fourth field could be any uri, e.g. used to identify an e.g. person ←
15:46:04 <cygri> +1 to AndyS
Richard Cyganiak: +1 to AndyS ←
15:46:12 <ericP> ... how important is it for the same uri to identify both a real-world thingy and a context?
... how important is it for the same uri to identify both a real-world thingy and a context? ←
15:46:28 <ericP> SteveH: it doesn't have to be santioned
Steve Harris: it doesn't have to be santioned ←
15:46:51 <Guus> ack AndyS
Guus Schreiber: ack AndyS ←
15:46:58 <ericP> ... people will do what they do so it's not critical to make it so flexible
... people will do what they do so it's not critical to make it so flexible ←
15:47:06 <ericP> AndyS1: two subcases:
Andy Seaborne: two subcases: ←
15:47:22 <ericP> ... .. person, and e.g. LeeF doesn't expect the spec to cover it
... .. person, and e.g. LeeF doesn't expect the spec to cover it ←
15:47:29 <ericP> ... .. location on the web
... .. location on the web ←
15:47:37 <LeeF> That is a correct characterization of my position - we use URIs to denote both real-world things and graphs, and we don't really care if the spec covers it
Lee Feigenbaum: That is a correct characterization of my position - we use URIs to denote both real-world things and graphs, and we don't really care if the spec covers it ←
15:47:41 <ericP> ... could you do the easy one now, so we can see it?
... could you do the easy one now, so we can see it? ←
15:47:51 <ericP> ... would be nice to compare them side-by-side
... would be nice to compare them side-by-side ←
15:48:12 <ericP> PatH: hmm, not as easy as i thought, but can get it out in the next couple days
Patrick Hayes: hmm, not as easy as i thought, but can get it out in the next couple days ←
15:48:22 <AndyS1> ack me
Andy Seaborne: ack me ←
15:48:27 <ericP> ... i'll document the simplest, and report its flaws
... i'll document the simplest, and report its flaws ←
15:48:53 <ericP> Guus: your second case splits where the web resource is static or dynamic
Guus Schreiber: your second case splits where the web resource is static or dynamic ←
15:49:13 <ericP> these three seem to come up consistently and cover the requirements
these three seem to come up consistently and cover the requirements ←
15:49:23 <MacTed> the context comes in the triples involving the URI -- the URI itself is opaque...
Ted Thibodeau: the context comes in the triples involving the URI -- the URI itself is opaque... ←
15:49:23 <MacTed> :URI a :person vs :URI a :webpage vs :URI a :electron
Ted Thibodeau: :URI a :person vs :URI a :webpage vs :URI a :electron ←
15:49:24 <MacTed> :URI a :indeterminate-thing has attributes
Ted Thibodeau: :URI a :indeterminate-thing has attributes ←
15:49:24 <MacTed> eventually you have enough attributes to know which it is -- or you know which attributes to discard, because they're not relevant to the thing with which you are concerned...
Ted Thibodeau: eventually you have enough attributes to know which class it belongs to -- or you know which attributes to discard, because they're not relevant to the class with which you are concerned... ←
15:49:27 <ericP> ... if we go for a solution, these should be the basis
... if we go for a solution, these should be the basis ←
15:50:18 <ericP> davidwood: i thought that we decided even static was likely to change over time, just a matter of degree
David Wood: i thought that we decided even static was likely to change over time, just a matter of degree ←
15:50:25 <AndyS1> case 1: static graph containers: always the same value // case 2: Changing contents (changing value) [maybe a continuum]
Andy Seaborne: case 1: static graph containers: always the same value // case 2: Changing contents (changing value) [maybe a continuum] ←
15:50:36 <ericP> PatH: while that's true philosophically, there are those that we treat as static
Patrick Hayes: while that's true philosophically, there are those that we treat as static ←
15:50:54 <ericP> ... so when static things change, we expect stuff to break
... so when static things change, we expect stuff to break ←
15:51:13 <ericP> ... the dynamic stuff is engineered to change
... the dynamic stuff is engineered to change ←
15:51:47 <ericP> davidwood: are you trying to make this isomorphic with things with things which should be time invariant?
David Wood: are you trying to make this isomorphic with things with things which should be time invariant? ←
15:52:02 <gavinc> +q
Gavin Carothers: +q ←
15:52:05 <ericP> ack me
ack me ←
15:52:21 <gavinc> ack me
Gavin Carothers: ack me ←
15:52:28 <Guus> ack gavinc
Guus Schreiber: ack gavinc ←
15:52:34 <ericP> PatH: people should be able to declare stuff invariant
Patrick Hayes: people should be able to declare stuff invariant ←
15:52:44 <ericP> ... e.g. signing, endorsing
... e.g. signing, endorsing ←
15:52:53 <PatH> eric is better than I am at writing my thoughts, which is scary.
Patrick Hayes: eric is better than I am at writing my thoughts, which is scary. ←
15:52:55 <MacTed> s/attributes to know which it is/attributes to know which class it belongs to/
15:53:02 <MacTed> s/not relevant to the thing/not relevant to the class/
15:53:43 <ericP> gavinc: i don't really agree RDF emulate snapshots for signing as every signing mechanism snapshots into a bytestream
Gavin Carothers: i don't really agree RDF emulate snapshots for signing as every signing mechanism snapshots into a bytestream ←
15:54:05 <ericP> PatH: how does one record a signed document as a web resource for later review?
Patrick Hayes: how does one record a signed document as a web resource for later review? ←
15:55:14 <ivan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_URI_scheme
Ivan Herman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_URI_scheme ←
15:55:46 <ericP> gavinc: magnet URIs are designed for crypticographically identifying a resource for later search
Gavin Carothers: magnet URIs are designed for crypticographically identifying a resource for later search ←
15:56:24 <ericP> Guus: magnet uris are a draft open standard
Guus Schreiber: magnet uris are a draft open standard ←
15:56:45 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:56:46 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
15:56:57 <ivan> http://magnet-uri.sourceforge.net/
Ivan Herman: http://magnet-uri.sourceforge.net/ ←
15:57:43 <ericP> PatH: back to named graphs, maybe this makes a use case irrelevent. will consider
Patrick Hayes: back to named graphs, maybe this makes a use case irrelevent. will consider ←
15:58:22 <ericP> sandro: last i recall was gavinc and i disputed whether you needed crypto in the endorsement use case
Sandro Hawke: last i recall was gavinc and i disputed whether you needed crypto in the endorsement use case ←
15:59:03 <zwu2> sorry I have another meeting coming up. bye.
Zhe Wu: sorry I have another meeting coming up. bye. ←
15:59:11 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
15:59:19 <ericP> gavinc: crypto gets you the ability to use magent uris to identify things on the web and get them without dereference
Gavin Carothers: crypto gets you the ability to use magent uris to identify things on the web and get them without dereference ←
15:59:59 <ericP> q+ to say we *can* factor crypto out
q+ to say we *can* factor crypto out ←
16:00:19 <ericP> AndyS1: there are existing tools and techniques using crypto
Andy Seaborne: there are existing tools and techniques using crypto ←
16:00:36 <ericP> ... crypto not necessary technically
... crypto not necessary technically ←
16:00:55 <ericP> ack me
ack me ←
16:00:56 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say we *can* factor crypto out
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to say we *can* factor crypto out ←
16:01:00 <PatH> ?seem to be 2 cases? 1. controlling who gets to see the resource 2. ensuring that the resource referred to is the right one. I think (?) magnet uris are for the first?
Patrick Hayes: ?seem to be 2 cases? 1. controlling who gets to see the resource 2. ensuring that the resource referred to is the right one. I think (?) magnet uris are for the first? ←
16:01:16 <ericP> ack me
ack me ←
16:01:33 <sandro> found it --- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Example_of_Endorsement_Use_Case
Sandro Hawke: found it --- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Example_of_Endorsement_Use_Case ←
16:02:36 <ericP> ack me
ack me ←
16:04:33 <ericP> MacTed: you have to hash a gsnap
Ted Thibodeau: you have to hash a gsnap ←
16:04:49 <ericP> or i can ask some trusted party to copy it
or i can ask some trusted party to copy it ←
16:05:09 <ericP> or you may trust me to nto alter the text, and i just want to talk *about* that graph
or you may trust me to nto alter the text, and i just want to talk *about* that graph ←
16:05:28 <Guus> sandro, pls talk us through the page you pointed to
Guus Schreiber: sandro, pls talk us through the page you pointed to ←
16:05:34 <ericP> +1
+1 ←
16:05:36 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Example_of_Endorsement_Use_Case
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Example_of_Endorsement_Use_Case ←
16:06:09 <PatH> zakim, mute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me ←
16:06:09 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted ←
16:06:37 <ericP> [conversation about guuids and crypto]
[conversation about guuids and crypto] ←
16:06:47 <PatH> +1 to whoever just spoke
Patrick Hayes: +1 to whoever just spoke ←
16:07:04 <PatH> that was ted
Patrick Hayes: that was ted ←
16:07:04 <ericP> sandro: gavin created this wiki page
Sandro Hawke: gavin created this wiki page ←
16:07:26 <ericP> ... started with use case "alice want to say that she agrees that 'Bob is named Bob'"
... started with use case "alice want to say that she agrees that 'Bob is named Bob'" ←
16:07:42 <sandro> <#me> foaf:name "Bob",
Sandro Hawke: <#me> foaf:name "Bob", ←
16:07:50 <sandro> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Jan/0064.html
Sandro Hawke: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Jan/0064.html ←
16:08:08 <ericP> ... Bob says "<#me> foaf:name "Bob""
... Bob says "<#me> foaf:name "Bob"" ←
16:08:59 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Example_of_Endorsement_Use_Case
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Example_of_Endorsement_Use_Case ←
16:09:07 <ericP> ... adding crypto isn't required for this use case
... adding crypto isn't required for this use case ←
16:09:45 <ericP> ... gavinc's using something cryptographically derived from bytes instead "g775"
... gavinc's using something cryptographically derived from bytes instead "g775" ←
16:10:12 <ericP> gavinc: if someone is externally signing the docs, you don't need the crypto in trig
Gavin Carothers: if someone is externally signing the docs, you don't need the crypto in trig ←
16:10:35 <Guus> q+
Guus Schreiber: q+ ←
16:10:46 <davidwood> q+ to comment against Sandro's message
David Wood: q+ to comment against Sandro's message ←
16:11:02 <PatH> trust =/= security?
Patrick Hayes: trust =/= security? ←
16:11:10 <ericP> ack me
ack me ←
16:11:43 <ericP> Zakim, mute me
Zakim, mute me ←
16:11:43 <Zakim> EricP should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: EricP should now be muted ←
16:11:47 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me ←
16:11:47 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted ←
16:12:19 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
16:13:18 <ericP> sandro: is there anything that this group needs to do to make this example work?
Sandro Hawke: is there anything that this group needs to do to make this example work? ←
16:14:15 <AndyS1> This WG does not need to solve this problem - it needs to enable it or just not block it.
Andy Seaborne: This WG does not need to solve this problem - it needs to enable it or just not block it. ←
16:15:11 <sandro> sandro: I will happily agree that crypt-URIs *are* useful for when you DONT want to use TRIG. When the data is too long, or something.
Sandro Hawke: I will happily agree that crypt-URIs *are* useful for when you DONT want to use TRIG. When the data is too long, or something. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:15:24 <PatH> q-
Patrick Hayes: q- ←
16:15:30 <Guus> ack Guus
Guus Schreiber: ack Guus ←
16:15:36 <Guus> ack davidwood
Guus Schreiber: ack davidwood ←
16:15:36 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to comment against Sandro's message
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to comment against Sandro's message ←
16:15:42 <ericP> davidwood: critique of sandro's mail, alice could have made up "Bob's name is 'Bob'"
David Wood: critique of sandro's mail, alice could have made up "Bob's name is 'Bob'" ←
16:15:44 <PatH> david just made mt point.
Patrick Hayes: david just made mt point. ←
16:15:59 <PatH> mt//my
Patrick Hayes: mt//my ←
16:17:08 <MacTed> what "GRAPH"? gsnap, gbox, gtext? I think there is slop happening...
Ted Thibodeau: what "GRAPH"? gsnap, gbox, gtext? I think there is slop happening... ←
16:17:28 <ericP> PatH: there's not much point is endorsing a mathmatical abstraction
Patrick Hayes: there's not much point is endorsing a mathmatical abstraction ←
16:18:04 <ericP> i wonder if annotea was an endorsement system
i wonder if annotea was an endorsement system ←
16:18:25 <PatH> time rescues us again....
Patrick Hayes: time rescues us again.... ←
16:18:32 <ericP> Guus: if we don't get some examples, we have to go with the minimal solution
Guus Schreiber: if we don't get some examples, we have to go with the minimal solution ←
16:18:55 <Zakim> -cgreer
Zakim IRC Bot: -cgreer ←
16:18:58 <ericP> sandro: or admit defeat (preferrable to claiming victory on a non-success)
Sandro Hawke: or admit defeat (preferrable to claiming victory on a non-success) ←
16:18:59 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
16:19:17 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
16:19:22 <Zakim> - +1.603.897.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.603.897.aaaa ←
16:19:22 <AndyS1> We should define TriG syntax -- it's out there now -- ditto nquads
Andy Seaborne: We should define TriG syntax -- it's out there now -- ditto nquads ←
16:19:25 <ericP> ck me
ck me ←
16:19:25 <Zakim> -pfps
Zakim IRC Bot: -pfps ←
16:19:27 <ericP> ack me
ack me ←
16:19:29 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
16:19:30 <Zakim> -AlexHall
Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall ←
16:19:30 <Zakim> -sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -sandro ←
16:19:35 <Zakim> -NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH ←
16:19:37 <Zakim> -Guus_Schreiber
Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus_Schreiber ←
16:19:37 <Zakim> -AndyS1
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS1 ←
16:19:41 <Zakim> -gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc ←
16:19:44 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
16:19:46 <MacTed> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes
Ted Thibodeau: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes ←
16:19:49 <MacTed> :-)
Ted Thibodeau: :-) ←
16:19:49 <sandro> syntax without semantics, AndyS ? Maybe....
Sandro Hawke: syntax without semantics, AndyS ? Maybe.... ←
16:19:51 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes ←
16:20:11 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
16:20:34 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
16:20:35 <Zakim> -cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri ←
16:20:37 <Zakim> -davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood ←
16:20:39 <AndyS1> If we can't define the semantics we can at least enable data exchange.
Andy Seaborne: If we can't define the semantics we can at least enable data exchange. ←
16:21:03 <davidwood> AndyS I like it as a first step
David Wood: AndyS I like it as a first step ←
16:21:03 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
16:21:07 <sandro> yep. true.
Sandro Hawke: yep. true. ←
16:21:17 <AndyS1> It will happen, the only Q is whether we help interoperability or not by fixing details.
Andy Seaborne: It will happen, the only Q is whether we help interoperability or not by fixing details. ←
16:23:30 <Zakim> -SteveH
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH ←
16:25:09 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
16:25:10 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended ←
16:25:10 <Zakim> Attendees were gavinc, sandro, +1.603.897.aaaa, Arnaud, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, EricP, davidwood, cgreer, AndyS1, Ivan, +1.443.212.aabb, AlexHall, MacTed, zwu2, LeeF, SteveH, NickH,
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were gavinc, sandro, +1.603.897.aaaa, Arnaud, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, EricP, davidwood, cgreer, AndyS1, Ivan, +1.443.212.aabb, AlexHall, MacTed, zwu2, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, ←
16:25:10 <Zakim> ... cygri, PatH, AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: ... cygri, PatH, AZ ←
Formatted by CommonScribe