Meeting Record

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Zakim IRC Bot: ok, josema; I see T&S_EGOV(F2F2)9:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes ←

Governments are starting to think about mobile access to government services ←

...the information you already entered should be stored in the sytem somewhere ←

...we have to do more work; welcome W3C partnership on multi-channel delivery topic ←

...they are finding issues about how to develop applications for those countries ←

...some of unsolved challenges are that we have not yet identified what those services are ←

...so it's another channel to consider; W3C is not doing anything here at the moment ←

...In South America, in Paraguay, there is very little Internet connectivity except through mobile ←

Chris Testa, Holocost Museum: I would encourage this group to take global perspective ←

Unknown Karen: In a conversation with State Dept rep yesterday, I learned of her interest in international communications ←

Kevin Novak: 508 requires anything that cannot be classified can be grandfathered in ←

Unknown Ken: if gov't uses YouTube, are they selecting one company over another ←

...I have heard it said that there is a generation that wants to receive video and not text ←

...how your experience of Web completely changes when people know where you are ←

...rationale was that we could not have done that without a significant investment ←

...would be good to have one embed statement that would work for any platform ←

...becomes most meaningful to talk about proliferation of channels in terms of what access looks like ←

David Osimo: the sheer number of APIs that we have to support, and the poor job we're doing getting data into multiple channels ←

...open search has done it for search and text, but that's a small drop in big ocean ←

...have to make a choice to support a particular vendor's way of doing stuff ←

...when a gov't entity submits a filing, they prepare report to look a certain way ←

...Access to information in a timely fashion in its original form is critically important ←

...photo journalism industry dealth with whether images were manipulated or not ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see heatherwest, Karen, Rachel, OAmbur, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, darobin, trackbot ←

...for the order in which items appear in report, the presentation of material ←

...the accountants want to say that this is the canonical rendering of the document stored on SEC Web site, etc. ←

...trying to explain to authors that their documents may be viewed in multiple ways ←

...then you could package it together so long-term know that source document ←

...particular practices or conventions below the document level in clustered elements ←

...their domain has changed; URIs are fine as long as they continue to be there ←

Kevin Novak: so we seem to be moving into authentication and identification space ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Daniel_Bennett, heatherwest, Karen, Rachel, OAmbur, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, darobin, trackbot ←

Daniel Bennett: I worked for member of Congress and addressed issue of electronic signatures ←

...privacy concerns, costs -- what we should be doing as we map into digital world ←

...avoiding focing identityf to be divulged when unecessary or counter to the purpose ←

...and avoiding reliance on outside parties to supply authenticating credentials as the sole means of authentication ←

...government, in order to get digital certificate, was going to get from a commercial service ←

...consider when making decision about who supplies credentials; root authority ←

...in terms of privacy release, the threshold for ID should be low because that was beginning process ←

...at another point, there would be chance for out of band; call up the person ←

...Not trying to make obvious answers, but think W3C group should let people know about some of the standards they offer in these areas ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.202.236.aaaa, ??P13, AIA, +1.202.606.aabb ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see markthomas, Daniel_Bennett, heatherwest, Karen, Rachel, OAmbur, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, darobin, trackbot ←

...XForms is one of main standard set from W3C for allowing for transactions ←

...also consider in work about preserving ceremony and protocols of signing and authenticating documents and contracgts ←

...putting in the hash in the XML document; a fingerprint of the whole document ←

...happened at a certain time; but if no way to preserve in a way using a hash, then it makes it less dependable ←

Unknown Greg: Is there a possibility to follow pattern like Internet archive? ←

...if you put up URL and someone later repudiates it with a false copy, you can go back to that one ←

...that the archive or other authority is actually managing that digital archive and certification service ←

...if you go to India, you sign documents that say, "I am Ken, son of so-and-so" ←

...If you click a link from a Web page and go to the VeriSign page, they will say that the URL you came from has been verified through us ←

...there is a question of authenticating people when they bring things to Congress ←

...county government is thinking of open id for nonrepudiation, not authentication ←

...which is different from authentication, but it's about the series of transaction ←

...the appropriateness of using it for any transaction depends upon the risk level, assurance of identity ←

John Sheridan: In the UK, it cited authentication need, so we set up government gateway ←

...In Spain we have an electronic ID card I use to access a government service ←

...when they get a lot of complaints or anonymous emails, they focus on the substance ←

Kevin Novak: is there an opportunity for us to take a position on standards, or do we need to be general ←

Daniel Bennett: yes, pattern of everything; we should point to what W3C offers ←

Unknown PeterA: there are many other organizations in this space; so you may want to base line what others are doing ←

...allows people to offload identity to place that has done another level of authentication ←

Owen Ambur: For .gov agencies, the most meaningful aspects of their "IDs" are their missions, visions, values, goals, objectives, and stakeholders, i.e., their strategic plans. Depending upon one's point of view, the same might be said of individuals. ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.202.236.aaaa, ??P13, AIA, +1.202.606.aabb, rachel ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see rrahman, John, markthomas, Daniel_Bennett, heatherwest, Karen, Rachel, OAmbur, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, darobin, trackbot ←

...recognize once they publish on Web, another entity can publish; so what's the provinence ←

Unknown Ken: we will see a lot of aggregated data that claims to be government ←

...data.gov and recovery.gov will have a number of mash-ups that will be unclear ←

...if they care about an attribute, then your id can be masked, but it's situationa ←

...I am suggesting a system that a person in gov't cannot query every other transaction and where they have been ←

...depends upon application and purpose; we are agreed that our policy statements say you should only ask and keep info you absolutely need ←

...there is no capability or interest on the civilian side to aggregate data ←

...trusting the information in a mash-up and exposing the methods that a mash-up used ←

...idea is either with XQuery or SPARQL, you can preserve method by which something was pulled out in an auditable way ←

Unknown Ken: I am saying something more general; not everyone will use XQuery or SPARQL ←

...when you put view source and show how your Java Script compiles that application ←

...If we have a standard, that would negate the problem since they are not following the standard ←

...the assumption on mash-up site is that was historical data that will never change ←

...showing what people want to have happen; for example marijuana came up to top of list ←

...in transparency, we are trying to get more people in public sector to make the data more relevant ←

...as we launch this, I would like to see some standard adopted so we don't hurt the brand of open data ←

Peter Krantz: That's why GPO approach is the right way; if gov't signs those documents ←

...identification of organizations, company parent structures, understand who the contractor is ←

...we don't have a way to get the corporate ownership tree from the government ←

Joe Carmel: gov't identification of their data, and how citizens authenticate themselves ←

[scribing will suffer a bit from new scribe ability, more summarized, please jump in as you like] ←

[back to conversation this morning, how can you point to a You Tube source vs. authoritative source] ←

Unknown Suzanne: if goal is to make data discoverable, available, accessible, we need to think differently ←

Owen Ambur: One issue related to records management is the importance of presentation, i.e., exactly what did the individual see when he or she did what he or she did. ←

... so others could have an idea on what the situation is and plan accordingly ←

... EPA gave a presentation on [] project recently on managing this information ←

Kevin Novak: there's pressure to keep all the copies, even when only one character has changed ←

Unknown Diane: we had to create methodologies of all our taxonomies, i.e. for versioning ←

... how you archive the versions, maintain differences, etc is a big problem for us ←

Christopher Testa: at LOC we looked at a document holisticaly, was difficult to reference to just a single piece that was being changed ←

... we are putting data online that in cases has been hidden for hundreds of years ←

... someone can download info from our site and even if the site disappears, info will survive somewhere else ←

... this is an example that just by viewing information there is fingerprint ←

Unknown ChrisD: if you already published data and you find error on it two years later ←

... should you fix the version there or preserve it as is and release a revised one? ←

... in that case you may want that permanent URI to be a pointer to list of versions ←

Joe Carmel: I tend to think that stuff that goes to National Archives won't be touched ←

... imagine if you got a facsimile of a bill, you were going to check it before the original and you'd find differences ←

[?]: most of information dated before 1895? is wrong, misspelled, based on rumours... ←

... you digitize it, OCR doesn't work perfectly, etc., in our case we wanted to preserve what was present in the original ←

[joe gives example on biographies that changed over time because of mistakes and the language used was different from era to era] ←

Joe Carmel: the way old historians wrote some of those may be not politically correct today ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see OAmbur?, ??P13, AIA, +1.202.606.aabb, rachel ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see edsu, rrahman, John, markthomas, Daniel_Bennett, heatherwest, Karen, Rachel, OAmbur, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, darobin, trackbot ←

Joe Carmel: what we are doing today is to put what we have in paper in electronic form ←

... but the electronic universe is different, do we really need the paper form? the paper law version? ←

... there are people and organizations devoted to that paper version but may or may not be needed ←

Unknown Diane: what we need to figure out is what we can do from a W3C POV to improve current situation ←

... maybe a BP mechanism to connect the documents (OCR, original, other versions)? ←

Daniel Bennett: in 10,000 years from now, how could we reconstruct what is being electronically archived, e.g. in XML ←

John Sheridan: in ?? the online legislation in the UK had already the same legal status as the paper version ←

... all over EU this is happening, about half countries already have same status ←

Daniel Bennett: so you have resolved how to cite a piece of legislation that exists as a whole document ←

... we've being thinking in terms of smaller pieces, too, and using XPointer to go deeper ←

... from a SW perspective we rather might have the # anchor, but we are talking here on how to identify the piece ←

I.I.I.I IiI IrIeIaIlIlIyI IwIaInItI IaInI IiIdIeInItIiIfIiIeIrI ItIoI IaInIyItIhIiInIgI III ImIiIgIhItI IwIaInItI ItIoI IlIiInIkI ItIoI ←

Daniel Bennett: it's an interesting solution but I'm surprised at not seeing XPointer there ←

Joe Carmel: I can understand this being used as an identifier, e.g. protects the system in something does not exist in the future?? ←

Unknown Greg: I understand this might not qualify as URI, but as a Web description mechanism ←

... then the people who invented searched, had to build on what was available ←

... building a bridge between both worlds is an interesting and useful thing to do ←

Unknown Greg: if there were a machine readable version of that, for me that's a step towards the SW ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see heatherwest, Owen, edsu, rrahman, Daniel_Bennett, Karen, Rachel, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, darobin, trackbot ←

...related to social networking; lots of groups have been beating that horse ←

...So a member of Congress can say certain things under one hat, such as fund raising vs. as the rep ←

...or if they identified themselves differently it would be another identity ←

...I understand why I don't see gov't folks with their full names on twitter ←

...if you go your FaceBook page and say something that's untrue, under another identity ←

Unknown ChrisJ: If it is difficult to take a stance, maybe we list the known issues in order for gov't to incorporate ←

...and some employees don't understand the tech, or what policies they will violate ←

...there have been people arrested for stuff they put on the Web was used as evidence against them ←

...I am puzzled why we aren't socializing with the tools that allow that capability ←

...So should W3C build some scenarios to educate government and help transform ←

...so they formed a community and partnership with non-combatant organizations in the waterworld ←

José Alonso: I tend to believe once again, everything starts from Government Data, and will try to make my point ←

...and ask if there are standards to put in place to normalize these communities ←

...can we come up with principles that communities adopt when they are formed ←

...My idea was having government data as the central core of everything we are working on ←

John Sheridan: the issue of participation and engagement we need to discuss to play back a degree of relevance ←

...allows us to explore some other areas that policy makers are interested in ←

Kevin Novak: When you have decision makers needing to communicate in a higher level way ←

Unknown Suzanne: yes, when Navy realized that its partner were not just military ←

Unknown Suzanne: In this case, it's an argument of what we avoid: loss of life, property, prevent terrorist activities ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see heatherwest, OAmbur, mib_9cb9y50b, edsu, rrahman, Daniel_Bennett, Karen, Rachel, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, trackbot ←

...Library of Congress has preservation of metadata initiative; how does this fit into other areas? ←

..I created this page and this gov't person asked me how to put it up in XML ←

...I don't think gov't should make a decision around a single standard, rather let the communities decide ←

...Can't get people know I exist unless I show up somewhere; same with my agency ←

José Alonso: One thing we have discussed is how to find a given taxonomy or ontology ←

...you get the schema, and they propose some changes, document, and publish it to benefit others ←

...Usually a package for XML schema, documentation, license you can download free ←

...first thing I thought was that we need a small ontology to describe those use cases ←

Unknown Diane: One issue we have had to resolve is a taxonomy recognition process ←

...to XBRL Int'l and we have an in-house process for conformance to specifications ←

...We can confront issue of limited resources; we are looking for ways to maximize resources ←

...One thing we can think about is not just the data but the techniques, best practices, and tools we are putting out there ←

Unknown Ken: One concern I have, is at what point do the standards become a barrier to adoption? ←

...According to Yashir Bashir, he has suffered from making the adoption of standards to be a barrier ←

...the most important thing is the start of adoption; perfect should not be enemy of the good ←

Unknown Suzanne: To the point of not focusing on ROI, but there is a focus on agility ←

...I'm trying to bring this into gov't; part of it is educating gov't leaders ←

Unknown Suzanne: I read an article about a small township in the UK; they used social media to solve a common problem that everyone wanted solved ←

...My job is to advise senior leaders; to use emotional intelligence to motivate them to learn ←

...I would love it if W3C would say, here are the XML files, or the open data we are publishing ←

...but today there are some really simple things you can do today so that we can find it ←

Daniel Bennett: FTP uses file discovery; URL discovery is being done to some extent through RSS ←

Kevin Novak: I have expressed my thoughts on why RDF is not an ideal solution for all gov't data ←

...Why do you think W3C is selling Semantic Web alone? We are working on other things, too. ←

...We have been discussing within W3C a long time. It's what is the right tool for the job ←

...it has not been brought up in the conversation and it's not a small thing ←

...we were buying .orgs to differentiate the Web sites between gov and commerce ←

...people come to trust these things; some regulated and some less regulated more domains, top-level and unrelated (unfortunate in my opinion) ←

Unknown ChrisJ: I would be hesitant to know whether things we ID for May are really best practices ←

...have not reached the tipping point yet, but there are early explorers who have gained some success ←

Unknown Suzanne: examples at state and federal levels like virtualalabama.gov ←

...they engage their citizenry on the policies for screening at the airports ←

...they were early explorers of engaging citizens on how to improve screening at the airports ←

...lesson learned is to let people vent and screen the responses for the good ideas ←

...now there is more of a partnership approach and the citizens responded favorably ←

Kevin Novak: So going back under the open gov't data section to bring this to closure and review ←

José Alonso: We compiled a number of issues we thought should be discussed here ←

Unknown Diane: I would keep XBRL in there, but it's a use case under multichannel and versioning, much like London Gazette ←

José Alonso: If there is a need to have an open sitemap for metadata protocol, idea is to have some standard ←

...I would break it into standards for how to show you are using metadata and how you fill it ←

Unknown Ray: W3C joined LOC ten years ago because of standardization of metadata ←

...I wanted to mention that premise does represent...LOC does coordinate it... ←

Daniel Bennett: Pointing out you are using XML for the metadata standard, which is a W3C standard ←

Joe Carmel: If we had one file that was a pointer to all the data on your Web site ←

John Sheridan: my comment is that gov'ts spend a lot of time defining what is meant by certain things ←

...if you are trying to achieve this, and are starting from here, then here is some stuff that could work out ←

Unknown Suzanne: When DRM first came out, the agencies didn't understand it right away ←

...Everyone then understood what the DRM was about after they understood implementation strategy ←

...tell them that if you put stuff up, try to use standard ways to document what you ahve done ←

Unknown Suzanne: My name is on the internal letter that went out to internal agencies ←

Kevin Novak: They are meeting with a variety of organizations about what happens next ←

Owen Ambur: On the issue of whether anyone is using metadata to support queries, AIIM's Interoperable Enterprise Content Management (iECM) Committee plans to conduct a demo of the Content Management Interoperability Services (CMIS) protocol at the AIIM conference in Philadelphia. ←

...I really think we need to use the Web for indiv to interoperate data sets ←

Unknown Diane: Other thing is what is the status of XHTML 2.0 and where that is going ←

José Alonso: What I mentioned this morning also is the mobile Web best practices ←

...you may want to note that concept of well-formed HTML is not an agreed-up goal ←

Unknown Diane: I bridge between wanting content and wanting well-formed stuff ←

José Alonso: I agree, it's not a matter of MUST but of SHOULD and the benefits it brings ←

...argument and case needs to presented against an end goal they are trying to achieve ←

José Alonso: Unless it's proprietary or the licensing model is in conflict with what we propose ←

...They said that idea of what makes humans better than computers is pattern recognition ←

...look at people who steward that the data as being responsible for sharing ←

Unknown Ken: I am not a member, but would be interested in the social media aspects ←

...We will follow-up to invite the right people from those agencies to participate ←

Kevin Novak: Give you my personal thanks for your commitment and participation ←

Zakim IRC Bot: disconnecting the lone participant, OAmbur?, in T&S_EGOV(F2F2)9:00AM ←

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +1.202.236.aaaa, rachel, AIA, +1.202.606.aabb, OAmbur?, Brand?, +1.202.236.aacc ←

eGovernment Interest Group Teleconference

Minutes of 13 March 2009

1. Multi Channel

2. Identification and Authentication

3. Long Term Data Management

4. Future