IRC log of dpub on 2013-12-16
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 15:39:59 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/16-dpub-irc
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- RRSAgent, make logs public
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- Zakim, this will be dpub
- 15:40:03 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
- 15:40:04 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
- 15:40:04 [trackbot]
- Date: 16 December 2013
- 15:40:20 [mgylling]
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- 15:51:50 [azaroth]
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- SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM has now started
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- +??P50
- 15:57:34 [mgylling]
- trackbot, start telcon
- 15:57:36 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 15:57:38 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be dpub
- 15:57:38 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot, I see SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM already started
- 15:57:39 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
- 15:57:39 [trackbot]
- Date: 16 December 2013
- 15:57:52 [mgylling]
- zakim, ??P50 is mgylling
- 15:57:52 [Zakim]
- +mgylling; got it
- 15:58:05 [Sharad]
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- 15:58:16 [mgylling]
- regrets: Vladimir Levantovsky, Tom De Nies, Phil Madans, Rich Schwerdtfeger, Thierry Michel, Tzviya Siegman, George Walkley, Pierre Danet, Luc Audrain, Vincent Gros
- 15:58:48 [ivan]
- zakim, code?
- 15:58:48 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
- 15:59:12 [Zakim]
- +Ivan
- 15:59:16 [Zakim]
- + +1.503.614.aaaa
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- + +1.505.665.aabb
- 15:59:36 [dshkolnik]
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- 15:59:41 [Zakim]
- +Liza
- 15:59:43 [azaroth]
- Zakim, aabb is azaroth
- 15:59:43 [Zakim]
- +azaroth; got it
- 15:59:47 [Zakim]
- +Stearns
- 15:59:48 [Zakim]
- +dauwhe
- 16:00:01 [ivan]
- zakim, aaaa is Sharad
- 16:00:02 [Zakim]
- +Sharad; got it
- 16:00:06 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 16:00:09 [gcapiel]
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- 16:00:10 [fjh]
- zakim, [IPcaller] is me
- 16:00:10 [Zakim]
- +fjh; got it
- 16:00:38 [Bill_Kasdorf]
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- 16:00:51 [Zakim]
- +??P78
- 16:01:08 [mgylling]
- regrets: Vladimir Levantovsky, Tom De Nies, Phil Madans, Rich Schwerdtfeger, Thierry Michel, Tzviya Siegman, George Walkley, Pierre Danet, Luc Audrain, Vincent Gros, Brady Duga
- 16:01:08 [Zakim]
- +Bill_Kasdorf
- 16:01:13 [Zakim]
- + +1.408.431.aacc
- 16:01:18 [lizadaly]
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- 16:01:21 [gcapiel]
- Zakim, ??P78 is me
- 16:01:21 [Zakim]
- +gcapiel; got it
- 16:01:24 [Zakim]
- +plinss
- 16:01:29 [Suzanne]
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- +Suzanne_Taylor
- 16:02:00 [mgylling]
- zakim, who is here?
- 16:02:00 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see mgylling, Ivan, Sharad, azaroth, Liza, Stearns, dauwhe, fjh, gcapiel, Bill_Kasdorf, +1.408.431.aacc, plinss, Suzanne_Taylor
- 16:02:02 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see Suzanne, lizadaly, Bill_Kasdorf, gcapiel, dshkolnik, Sharad, fjh, azaroth, mgylling, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, Bert, dauwhe, liam, astearns, trackbot, plinss
- 16:02:19 [astearns]
- zakim, aacc is dshkolnik
- 16:02:19 [Zakim]
- +dshkolnik; got it
- 16:02:39 [Zakim]
- +JeanKaplansky
- 16:02:56 [Zakim]
- +Liam
- 16:03:21 [Zakim]
- +Laura_Fowler
- 16:03:25 [Jean_K]
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- + +49.305.770.aadd
- 16:03:49 [mgylling]
- scribe: lizadaly
- 16:04:44 [lizadaly]
- (Do I scribe here or in separate notes?)
- 16:04:54 [azaroth]
- Here would be great, thanks Liza
- 16:05:01 [lizadaly]
- You bet
- 16:05:14 [olaf_druemmer]
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- 16:05:31 [azaroth]
- Zakim, aadd is olaf_druemmer
- 16:05:31 [Zakim]
- +olaf_druemmer; got it
- 16:05:38 [lizadaly]
- Markus: 2nd week where we are trying theme-based called; today Annotations is up
- 16:06:07 [Zakim]
- +Bert
- 16:06:11 [lizadaly]
- First, approve previous minutes; objections to approval for last week's minutes? No; minutes are approved
- 16:06:18 [lizadaly]
- When should we meet again after Christmas?
- 16:06:39 [lizadaly]
- Monday 6th or Monday the 13th?
- 16:06:48 [dshkolnik]
- 6th is fine here
- 16:06:53 [azaroth]
- 6th is fine for me
- 16:06:56 [gcapiel]
- 1/13 is better, but 1/6 works
- 16:07:09 [lizadaly]
- Deadline for CSS Shapes notes is the 7th
- 16:07:30 [lizadaly]
- It is so duly noted that the next meeting will be the 6th of January
- 16:07:47 [lizadaly]
- Theme for the 6th of January?
- 16:08:00 [lizadaly]
- (TBD after discussion)
- 16:08:20 [lizadaly]
- Other discussion: Ivan will look into the mailing list issue raised by Tony
- 16:08:32 [lizadaly]
- ...but he believes it may be fine now
- 16:08:50 [lizadaly]
- Others are encouraged to raise any additional issues and he will follow up with the systems staff
- 16:08:59 [ivan]
- Topic: Annotations
- 16:08:59 [lizadaly]
- ANNOTATIONS
- 16:09:11 [olaf_druemmer]
- My name is Olaf Drümmer, I am CEO of callas software GmbH and axaio software GmbH in Berlin, Germany. I am also the chairman of teh PDF Association. My interest is around accessibility, MathML, STEM, and digital publishing in general.
- 16:09:19 [lizadaly]
- Markus suggests we provide some context for this discussion
- 16:09:30 [lizadaly]
- "Who is doing what?"
- 16:09:57 [lizadaly]
- Markus: There are 3 entities engaged in this work
- 16:10:04 [lizadaly]
- 1. Open Annotation Community Group
- 16:10:35 [lizadaly]
- Markus: 2. The IDPF, adapting the Open Annotations specification for use with EPUB
- 16:10:40 [ivan]
- Guest: Olaf (olaf_druemmer) Drümmer, Callas Software GmbH
- 16:10:56 [lizadaly]
- Markus: They are pointing to it and developing some specializations for it
- 16:11:15 [lizadaly]
- Markus: 3. This interest group, at this point collecting use cases for annotations as it relates to digital publishing
- 16:11:42 [lizadaly]
- Markus: The use case corpus as developed here has a wider scope than the original OA effort as it takes into account new cases discovered in the collaboration with the IDPF
- 16:11:56 [lizadaly]
- Rob: As an interest group, our charter doesn't allow us to _create_ specifications
- 16:12:22 [lizadaly]
- Markus: One of the interesting things about this group is that a new W3C Working Group could use our use cases as inputs to their process
- 16:12:40 [gcapiel]
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- 16:12:41 [lizadaly]
- Markus: The use cases developing here are partly informing the IDPF work and possibly future OA WGs
- 16:12:52 [lizadaly]
- Markus: Did that help set context?
- 16:13:04 [lizadaly]
- Ivan: Yes but the WG discussion is premature
- 16:13:12 [lizadaly]
- Markus: Indeed
- 16:13:47 [lizadaly]
- Markus: Another context: in the ebook space, there is no standard interoperable annotations spec; each reading system or platform uses their own
- 16:14:16 [lizadaly]
- Markus: There is a lot of lock-in, and this is a problem in trade publishing but even more so in the educational sector where annotations are used more proactively
- 16:14:34 [lizadaly]
- Markus: There is a clear need expressed by the e-education space for an interoperable specification/protocol for transportable annotations
- 16:15:08 [lizadaly]
- Rob: There was some work that was too early by NISO to bring together interested parties in annotations
- 16:15:25 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Many of the people here were a part of that and it did get the conversation started, but nothing concrete came out of that
- 16:15:40 [lizadaly]
- Markus: Questions/comments?
- 16:16:02 [benjaminsko]
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- 16:16:21 [lizadaly]
- Liam: There seems to be some competition in the educational space already providing annotation services
- 16:16:39 [lizadaly]
- Liam: That can be a precursor to standardization or it can make standardization difficult if those players aren't on board
- 16:17:02 [lizadaly]
- ???: A lot of interest in annotation in other sectors, see RapGenius
- 16:17:13 [azaroth]
- s/???/Rob/
- 16:17:14 [ivan]
- s/???/Rob/
- 16:17:18 [lizadaly]
- BillK: There's a lot of activity in the scholarly science and research space
- 16:17:20 [lizadaly]
- (thanks)
- 16:17:47 [Zakim]
- +benjaminsko
- 16:18:18 [lizadaly]
- Markus: Let's look at two things: 1) work done so far in use cases
- 16:18:29 [lizadaly]
- Markus: 2) Next steps for this task force
- 16:18:46 [mgylling]
- http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/Annotation
- 16:18:56 [mgylling]
- http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/UseCase_Directory#Social_Reading_and_Annotations
- 16:18:58 [lizadaly]
- Markus: The Annotation task force main page
- 16:19:06 [lizadaly]
- Markus: 2nd URL is the Use Case collection
- 16:19:52 [lizadaly]
- Rob: There are 6 categories
- 16:20:02 [lizadaly]
- Rob: 1. Basic use cases, annotations on the entire publication
- 16:20:22 [lizadaly]
- Rob: 4 UCs in that section are different ways that annotations can be used at the publication level
- 16:20:59 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Comments on the publication ("this is a great book!"); tag the publication; structured comment (score + review); personal vs. public annotations
- 16:21:13 [lizadaly]
- Rob: 2. Annotations that target segments of the work
- 16:21:28 [lizadaly]
- Rob: e.g. reading location, reading position, bookmarks
- 16:21:47 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Highlighting a span of text (neither highlight nor bookmark have commentary, just pointers)
- 16:22:09 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Commenting on some part of the text, or an embedded resource (img, video)
- 16:22:26 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Annotation parts of those resources
- 16:22:51 [lizadaly]
- Rob: 3. Advanced UCs: cross-format annotations (e.g. annotation the "work" rather than the instance of the work)
- 16:23:20 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Styles within an annotation (green vs. yellow highlights)
- 16:23:31 [lizadaly]
- Rob: State of those resources on the web (content negotiable)
- 16:23:46 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Recording state of user-manipulatable resources (this may be out of scope)
- 16:24:09 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Multiple bodies
- 16:24:20 [lizadaly]
- Rob: All these are covered by the Open Annotation specification already
- 16:24:27 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Those not covered:
- 16:24:37 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Serialize annotations into a single package
- 16:25:13 [lizadaly]
- Rob: OA spec does not have an API, so these are covered here
- 16:25:30 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Ensuring that annotations persist and can be transferred
- 16:25:57 [ivan]
- q+
- 16:26:08 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Issues around publications that are not published openly (like DRM) or issues where the annotations are not published openly
- 16:26:29 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Specifying the target audience for the annotations ("these annotations are appropriate for young children")
- 16:26:47 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Contributing accessibility information about resources
- 16:26:59 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Have a rich description of a resource for use by other users
- 16:27:27 [mgylling]
- q?
- 16:27:32 [mgylling]
- ack ivan
- 16:27:48 [gcapiel]
- q+
- 16:27:49 [Zakim]
- -Liam
- 16:28:14 [lizadaly]
- Ivan: On the API: Do you mean a JavaScript API that browsers can use via the web?
- 16:28:39 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Could be both server-to-server or browser-to-server
- 16:29:29 [lizadaly]
- Rob: but this work focused on system-to-system
- 16:29:59 [lizadaly]
- Ivan: Re: target audience for annotations; isn't this the same issue as requesting annotations for annotations?
- 16:30:41 [lizadaly]
- Ivan: This more general use case could subsume that
- 16:30:59 [lizadaly]
- Rob: You could annotate the annotation to give it a target audience, or it could be directly-applied metadata
- 16:31:31 [lizadaly]
- Rob: We have laid out different approaches; most people take the metadata approach because implementation is easier
- 16:31:55 [lizadaly]
- Rob: but either way is possible
- 16:32:18 [lizadaly]
- Markus: (Learning Resource Metadata Initiative)
- 16:32:25 [mgylling]
- q?
- 16:32:32 [mgylling]
- ack gcapiel
- 16:33:10 [lizadaly]
- Gerardo: Is there a way to know that an annotation is specific to the purpose of describing an image vs [ lost signal ]
- 16:34:04 [lizadaly]
- Rob: We went for a general system that doesn't need to know the specific motivation of the system
- 16:34:11 [gcapiel]
- versus providing general comments or feedback
- 16:34:12 [azaroth]
- metadata vs annotation discussion: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-openannotation/2013Oct/0001.html
- 16:34:15 [mgylling]
- q?
- 16:34:35 [azaroth]
- motivations; http://www.openannotation.org/spec/core/core.html#Motivations
- 16:34:42 [lizadaly]
- Markus: In the advanced model use cases section, cases 5 & 6
- 16:34:52 [liam]
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- 16:34:52 [lizadaly]
- Markus: 6 is the user-manipulated case
- 16:35:25 [lizadaly]
- Rob: There is an object called 'state' which we have used for recording HTTP-level information (e.g. HTTP headers like content negotiation, time at which it should be applied)
- 16:36:00 [lizadaly]
- Rob: "Here is the time at which the annotation applies to the resource" which is not the same as whether you can retrieve that resource
- 16:36:19 [lizadaly]
- Rob: We envision using this process for user-manipulated annotations, though none are defined at this time
- 16:36:35 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Is there something specific to the digital publishing world in which it would be a "failure" if this were not defined?
- 16:36:50 [Zakim]
- +Liam
- 16:37:29 [lizadaly]
- Markus: In an educational setting, learners will have a quiz widget ('answer these 10 questions'); the teacher wants to annotation question 8 and makes the annotation; when the learners get into the quiz they should not see the annotation until they get to question 8
- 16:37:42 [lizadaly]
- Markus: There is no predictability in how this widget is built
- 16:38:12 [lizadaly]
- Rob: There might be an opportunity to attach to JS events "only display this onChange, etc"
- 16:38:24 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Because this is complex since there are no standards in how these widgets behave
- 16:38:35 [mgylling]
- q?
- 16:38:35 [lizadaly]
- ;Rob: ...I wanted to raise this with the group
- 16:39:10 [lizadaly]
- Markus: What is your sense of how complete this is in terms of use cases?
- 16:39:19 [Zakim]
- -dshkolnik
- 16:39:44 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Very small number of features present in the model that are not used by any of these use cases
- 16:40:00 [lizadaly]
- Rob: I could create cases for them but they would not be very relevant to this IG audience
- 16:40:06 [Zakim]
- +dshkolnik
- 16:40:07 [lizadaly]
- Rob: It is complete from my perspective
- 16:40:42 [Bill_Kasdorf]
- q+
- 16:40:45 [lizadaly]
- Markus: We need to review this further to decide whether it is complete; are there things that seem to be missing right now?
- 16:40:48 [ivan]
- q+
- 16:41:11 [mgylling]
- ack Bill_Kasdorf
- 16:41:27 [lizadaly]
- BillK: This may overlap with some categories we already have including versioning: how do we indicate the version of a publication that is being commented on?
- 16:41:46 [lizadaly]
- Rob: The way we have approached versioning is to look at the web architecture and go with what's there
- 16:42:17 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Hints: state of the resource at a time period is how we've tried to capture versioning in a neutral way
- 16:43:04 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Easier would be to give every version of a resource a URI (like Wikipedia)
- 16:43:33 [lizadaly]
- BillK: I'm thinking of annotation that is a critique or a correction that has been subsequently corrected
- 16:43:54 [lizadaly]
- BillK: The ability to then indicate whether the comment still applies or does not apply in a later version
- 16:44:20 [lizadaly]
- Rob: So, either multiple specific version to which it applies, or a range of time in which it applies
- 16:44:27 [lizadaly]
- BillK: This can only be applied after the fact
- 16:44:38 [lizadaly]
- Rob: The annotation and the publication may be in different systems
- 16:45:14 [lizadaly]
- Rob: We discussed this issue: when an annotation only applies in a specific case, we decided not to open that can of worms
- 16:45:27 [lizadaly]
- Rob: but we decided to tackle specific instances of this issue if they came up
- 16:46:04 [lizadaly]
- BillK: In the scholarly world: the mechanism by CrossRef is called CrossMark
- 16:46:13 [lizadaly]
- BillK: A user of a publication can see whether they have the latest version of the publication
- 16:46:30 [lizadaly]
- BillK: Important for medical use cases since they can get retracted
- 16:46:43 [lizadaly]
- Markus: Is this something we want to represent in the use case collection then?
- 16:47:01 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Nothing's been accepted yet, so we can rediscuss whether to tackle it
- 16:47:19 [lizadaly]
- BillK: I wasn't sure if this was a distinct use case or a variation on an existing one
- 16:47:59 [lizadaly]
- (Markus is having connection problems)
- 16:48:26 [ivan]
- ack ivan
- 16:48:53 [lizadaly]
- Ivan: The annotations themselves should/may be structured and therefore a formatted document
- 16:49:10 [lizadaly]
- Ivan: e.g. the annotation needs to have markup
- 16:49:36 [lizadaly]
- Rob: That use case is there; any resource can be a body of an annotation
- 16:49:44 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Including cat images
- 16:49:53 [ivan]
- q?
- 16:50:06 [Zakim]
- -Sharad
- 16:50:22 [lizadaly]
- Ivan questions the utility of a fish for connection resolution
- 16:50:31 [lizadaly]
- Ivan: Next steps, Rob?
- 16:51:05 [lizadaly]
- Rob: I will add the use case of whether an annotation is valid for a document at a particular state
- 16:51:17 [lizadaly]
- Rob: How do we move to more formal vetting? Do we want for the other task forces?
- 16:51:25 [lizadaly]
- s/want/wait/
- 16:51:46 [lizadaly]
- Ivan: We don't have any formal approach
- 16:51:58 [lizadaly]
- Ivan: The unit of the task force is the entire IG
- 16:52:10 [lizadaly]
- Ivan: The IG should get some time to review the UCs
- 16:52:26 [lizadaly]
- Ivan: and then say yes/no
- 16:52:34 [lizadaly]
- Ivan: Assuming they agree... what is the next step?
- 16:52:49 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Markus and I will take the UCs back to the IDPF and to the community group
- 16:53:21 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Within the community group we can help with the annotations packages problems and system-to-system APIs
- 16:53:41 [lizadaly]
- Rob: We haven't want to formalize metadata in that group but could take a stab at it for this audience and for accessibility
- 16:54:36 [lizadaly]
- Ivan: What I would like to see: 2 documents, 1 is looking at the use cases: are there requirements that lead to missing features?
- 16:55:36 [lizadaly]
- Ivan: 2. Particular to this task force: if the IG decides that they want to go for a WG, how do these use cases the charter of a possible WG?
- 16:55:43 [lizadaly]
- Ivan: 1 outcome is a draft charter
- 16:56:15 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Markus, Rob, and Paolo discussed using these UCs towards a charter
- 16:57:10 [lizadaly]
- Rob: Re: missing features in the OWP (Open Web Platform), would be helpful to have people in the other task forces with web experience look at whether those features are possible now
- 16:58:18 [lizadaly]
- Ivan: 3. Maybe require work with BillK's task force: identification of how parts of a document are targeted for annotation
- 16:58:30 [ivan]
- q?
- 16:59:08 [lizadaly]
- Dave Cramer: I volunteer for latinreq
- 16:59:34 [lizadaly]
- BillK: There will need to be a CSS discussion at that meeting too
- 16:59:45 [azaroth]
- ACTION: Rob to note the differences between javascript API vs inter-system web API
- 16:59:45 [trackbot]
- Error finding 'Rob'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/users>.
- 17:00:05 [azaroth]
- ACTION: azaroth to note the differences between javascript API vs inter-system web API
- 17:00:05 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-13 - Note the differences between javascript api vs inter-system web api [on Robert Sanderson - due 2013-12-23].
- 17:00:28 [Zakim]
- -gcapiel
- 17:00:46 [lizadaly]
- Dave Cramer: We will use the mailing list for discussions of that
- 17:01:18 [lizadaly]
- Thanks!
- 17:01:19 [azaroth]
- ACTION: azaroth to create new use case regarding description of when annotation is no longer relevant for a publication (eg corrections)
- 17:01:20 [mgylling]
- bye!
- 17:01:20 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-14 - Create new use case regarding description of when annotation is no longer relevant for a publication (eg corrections) [on Robert Sanderson - due 2013-12-23].
- 17:01:20 [Zakim]
- -fjh
- 17:01:21 [Zakim]
- -Suzanne_Taylor
- 17:01:22 [Zakim]
- -JeanKaplansky
- 17:01:23 [dshkolnik]
- bye
- 17:01:23 [Zakim]
- -benjaminsko
- 17:01:23 [Zakim]
- -Stearns
- 17:01:25 [Zakim]
- -Bill_Kasdorf
- 17:01:25 [Zakim]
- -Laura_Fowler
- 17:01:27 [Zakim]
- -azaroth
- 17:01:28 [Zakim]
- -dshkolnik
- 17:01:29 [Zakim]
- -dauwhe
- 17:01:30 [Zakim]
- -plinss
- 17:01:31 [Zakim]
- -olaf_druemmer
- 17:01:34 [Zakim]
- -Bert
- 17:01:38 [Zakim]
- -Ivan
- 17:01:39 [Zakim]
- -Liam
- 17:05:28 [azaroth]
- ivan: You're going to do the magic invocation for the minutes?
- 17:05:37 [ivan]
- yes
- 17:05:46 [ivan]
- I am working on the minutes
- 17:05:53 [ivan]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 17:05:53 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/16-dpub-minutes.html ivan
- 17:06:13 [azaroth]
- Okay, thanks :) Have a great holidays (all!)
- 17:08:42 [gcapiel]
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- 17:36:32 [st_afk]
- st_afk has joined #dpub
- 18:36:33 [Bert]
- Bert has left #dpub
- 18:47:59 [Zakim]
- -Liza
- 18:53:00 [Zakim]
- disconnecting the lone participant, mgylling, in SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM
- 18:53:01 [Zakim]
- SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM has ended
- 18:53:01 [Zakim]
- Attendees were mgylling, Ivan, +1.503.614.aaaa, +1.505.665.aabb, Liza, azaroth, Stearns, dauwhe, Sharad, fjh, Bill_Kasdorf, +1.408.431.aacc, gcapiel, plinss, Suzanne_Taylor,
- 18:53:02 [Zakim]
- ... dshkolnik, JeanKaplansky, Liam, Laura_Fowler, +49.305.770.aadd, olaf_druemmer, Bert, benjaminsko
- 19:01:34 [gcapiel]
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- 19:23:04 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #dpub