15:39:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
15:39:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/16-dpub-irc
15:40:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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15:40:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
15:40:03 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
15:40:04 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
15:40:04 <trackbot> Date: 16 December 2013
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15:57:18 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM has now started
15:57:25 <Zakim> +??P50
15:57:34 <mgylling> trackbot, start telcon
15:57:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:57:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
15:57:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM already started
15:57:39 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
15:57:39 <trackbot> Date: 16 December 2013
15:57:52 <mgylling> zakim, ??P50 is mgylling
15:57:52 <Zakim> +mgylling; got it
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15:58:16 <mgylling> regrets: Vladimir Levantovsky, Tom De Nies, Phil Madans, Rich Schwerdtfeger, Thierry Michel, Tzviya Siegman, George Walkley, Pierre Danet, Luc Audrain, Vincent Gros
15:58:48 <ivan> zakim, code?
15:58:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
15:59:12 <Zakim> +Ivan
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15:59:41 <Zakim> +Liza
15:59:43 <azaroth> Zakim, aabb is azaroth
15:59:43 <Zakim> +azaroth; got it
15:59:47 <Zakim> +Stearns
15:59:48 <Zakim> +dauwhe
16:00:01 <ivan> zakim, aaaa is Sharad
16:00:02 <Zakim> +Sharad; got it
16:00:06 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
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16:00:10 <fjh> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:00:10 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
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16:00:51 <Zakim> +??P78
16:01:08 <mgylling> regrets: Vladimir Levantovsky, Tom De Nies, Phil Madans, Rich Schwerdtfeger, Thierry Michel, Tzviya Siegman, George Walkley, Pierre Danet, Luc Audrain, Vincent Gros, Brady Duga
16:01:08 <Zakim> +Bill_Kasdorf
16:01:13 <Zakim> + +1.408.431.aacc
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16:01:21 <gcapiel> Zakim, ??P78 is me
16:01:21 <Zakim> +gcapiel; got it
16:01:24 <Zakim> +plinss
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16:01:40 <Zakim> +Suzanne_Taylor
16:02:00 <mgylling> zakim, who is here?
16:02:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see mgylling, Ivan, Sharad, azaroth, Liza, Stearns, dauwhe, fjh, gcapiel, Bill_Kasdorf, +1.408.431.aacc, plinss, Suzanne_Taylor
16:02:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see Suzanne, lizadaly, Bill_Kasdorf, gcapiel, dshkolnik, Sharad, fjh, azaroth, mgylling, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, Bert, dauwhe, liam, astearns, trackbot, plinss
16:02:19 <astearns> zakim, aacc is dshkolnik
16:02:19 <Zakim> +dshkolnik; got it
16:02:39 <Zakim> +JeanKaplansky
16:02:56 <Zakim> +Liam
16:03:21 <Zakim> +Laura_Fowler
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16:03:46 <Zakim> + +49.305.770.aadd
16:03:49 <mgylling> scribe: lizadaly
16:04:44 <lizadaly> (Do I scribe here or in separate notes?)
16:04:54 <azaroth> Here would be great, thanks Liza
16:05:01 <lizadaly> You bet
16:05:14 <olaf_druemmer> olaf_druemmer has joined #dpub
16:05:31 <azaroth> Zakim, aadd is olaf_druemmer
16:05:31 <Zakim> +olaf_druemmer; got it
16:05:38 <lizadaly> Markus: 2nd week where we are trying theme-based called; today Annotations is up
16:06:07 <Zakim> +Bert
16:06:11 <lizadaly> First, approve previous minutes; objections to approval for last week's minutes? No; minutes are approved
16:06:18 <lizadaly> When should we meet again after Christmas?
16:06:39 <lizadaly> Monday 6th or Monday the 13th?
16:06:48 <dshkolnik> 6th is fine here
16:06:53 <azaroth> 6th is fine for me
16:06:56 <gcapiel> 1/13 is better, but 1/6 works
16:07:09 <lizadaly> Deadline for CSS Shapes notes is the 7th
16:07:30 <lizadaly> It is so duly noted that the next meeting will be the 6th of January
16:07:47 <lizadaly> Theme for the 6th of January?
16:08:00 <lizadaly> (TBD after discussion)
16:08:20 <lizadaly> Other discussion: Ivan will look into the mailing list issue raised by Tony
16:08:32 <lizadaly> ...but he believes it may be fine now
16:08:50 <lizadaly> Others are encouraged to raise any additional issues and he will follow up with the systems staff
16:08:59 <ivan> Topic: Annotations
16:08:59 <lizadaly> ANNOTATIONS
16:09:11 <olaf_druemmer> My name is Olaf Drümmer, I am CEO of callas software GmbH and axaio software GmbH in Berlin, Germany. I am also the chairman of teh PDF Association. My interest is around accessibility, MathML, STEM, and digital publishing in general.
16:09:19 <lizadaly> Markus suggests we provide some context for this discussion
16:09:30 <lizadaly> "Who is doing what?"
16:09:57 <lizadaly> Markus: There are 3 entities engaged in this work
16:10:04 <lizadaly> 1. Open Annotation Community Group
16:10:35 <lizadaly> Markus: 2. The IDPF, adapting the Open Annotations specification for use with EPUB
16:10:40 <ivan> Guest: Olaf (olaf_druemmer) Drümmer, Callas Software GmbH
16:10:56 <lizadaly> Markus: They are pointing to it and developing some specializations for it
16:11:15 <lizadaly> Markus: 3. This interest group, at this point collecting use cases for annotations as it relates to digital publishing
16:11:42 <lizadaly> Markus: The use case corpus as developed here has a wider scope than the original OA effort as it takes into account new cases discovered in the collaboration with the IDPF
16:11:56 <lizadaly> Rob: As an interest group, our charter doesn't allow us to _create_ specifications
16:12:22 <lizadaly> Markus: One of the interesting things about this group is that a new W3C Working Group could use our use cases as inputs to their process
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16:12:41 <lizadaly> Markus: The use cases developing here are partly informing the IDPF work and possibly future OA WGs
16:12:52 <lizadaly> Markus: Did that help set context?
16:13:04 <lizadaly> Ivan: Yes but the WG discussion is premature
16:13:12 <lizadaly> Markus: Indeed
16:13:47 <lizadaly> Markus: Another context: in the ebook space, there is no standard interoperable annotations spec; each reading system or platform uses their own
16:14:16 <lizadaly> Markus: There is a lot of lock-in, and this is a problem in trade publishing but even more so in the educational sector where annotations are used more proactively
16:14:34 <lizadaly> Markus: There is a clear need expressed by the e-education space for an interoperable specification/protocol for transportable annotations
16:15:08 <lizadaly> Rob: There was some work that was too early by NISO to bring together interested parties in annotations
16:15:25 <lizadaly> Rob: Many of the people here were a part of that and it did get the conversation started, but nothing concrete came out of that
16:15:40 <lizadaly> Markus: Questions/comments?
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16:16:21 <lizadaly> Liam: There seems to be some competition in the educational space already providing annotation services
16:16:39 <lizadaly> Liam: That can be a precursor to standardization or it can make standardization difficult if those players aren't on board
16:17:02 <lizadaly> ???: A lot of interest in annotation in other sectors, see RapGenius
16:17:13 <azaroth> s/???/Rob/
16:17:14 <ivan> s/???/Rob/
16:17:18 <lizadaly> BillK: There's a lot of activity in the scholarly science and research space
16:17:20 <lizadaly> (thanks)
16:17:47 <Zakim> +benjaminsko
16:18:18 <lizadaly> Markus: Let's look at two things: 1) work done so far in use cases
16:18:29 <lizadaly> Markus: 2) Next steps for this task force
16:18:46 <mgylling> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/Annotation
16:18:56 <mgylling> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/UseCase_Directory#Social_Reading_and_Annotations
16:18:58 <lizadaly> Markus: The Annotation task force main page
16:19:06 <lizadaly> Markus: 2nd URL is the Use Case collection
16:19:52 <lizadaly> Rob: There are 6 categories
16:20:02 <lizadaly> Rob: 1. Basic use cases, annotations on the entire publication
16:20:22 <lizadaly> Rob: 4 UCs in that section are different ways that annotations can be used at the publication level
16:20:59 <lizadaly> Rob: Comments on the publication ("this is a great  book!"); tag the publication; structured comment (score + review); personal vs. public annotations
16:21:13 <lizadaly> Rob: 2. Annotations that target segments of the work
16:21:28 <lizadaly> Rob: e.g. reading location, reading position, bookmarks
16:21:47 <lizadaly> Rob: Highlighting a span of text (neither highlight nor bookmark have commentary, just pointers)
16:22:09 <lizadaly> Rob: Commenting on some part of the text, or an embedded resource (img, video)
16:22:26 <lizadaly> Rob: Annotation parts of those resources
16:22:51 <lizadaly> Rob: 3. Advanced UCs: cross-format annotations (e.g. annotation the "work" rather than the instance of the work)
16:23:20 <lizadaly> Rob: Styles within an annotation (green vs. yellow highlights)
16:23:31 <lizadaly> Rob: State of those resources on the web (content negotiable)
16:23:46 <lizadaly> Rob: Recording state of user-manipulatable resources (this may be out of scope)
16:24:09 <lizadaly> Rob: Multiple bodies
16:24:20 <lizadaly> Rob: All these are covered by the Open Annotation specification already
16:24:27 <lizadaly> Rob: Those not covered:
16:24:37 <lizadaly> Rob: Serialize annotations into a single package
16:25:13 <lizadaly> Rob: OA spec does not have an API, so these are covered here
16:25:30 <lizadaly> Rob: Ensuring that annotations persist and can be transferred
16:25:57 <ivan> q+
16:26:08 <lizadaly> Rob: Issues around publications that are not published openly (like DRM) or issues where the annotations are not published openly
16:26:29 <lizadaly> Rob: Specifying the target audience for the annotations ("these annotations are appropriate for young children")
16:26:47 <lizadaly> Rob: Contributing accessibility information about resources
16:26:59 <lizadaly> Rob: Have a rich description of a resource for use by other users
16:27:27 <mgylling> q?
16:27:32 <mgylling> ack ivan
16:27:48 <gcapiel> q+
16:27:49 <Zakim> -Liam
16:28:14 <lizadaly> Ivan: On the API: Do you mean a JavaScript API that browsers can use via the web?
16:28:39 <lizadaly> Rob: Could be both server-to-server or browser-to-server
16:29:29 <lizadaly> Rob: but this work focused on system-to-system
16:29:59 <lizadaly> Ivan: Re: target audience for annotations; isn't this the same issue as requesting annotations for annotations?
16:30:41 <lizadaly> Ivan: This more general use case could subsume that
16:30:59 <lizadaly> Rob: You could annotate the annotation to give it a target audience, or it could be directly-applied metadata
16:31:31 <lizadaly> Rob: We have laid out different approaches; most people take the metadata approach because implementation is easier
16:31:55 <lizadaly> Rob: but either way is possible
16:32:18 <lizadaly> Markus: (Learning Resource Metadata Initiative)
16:32:25 <mgylling> q?
16:32:32 <mgylling> ack gcapiel
16:33:10 <lizadaly> Gerardo: Is there a way to know that an annotation is specific to the purpose of describing an image vs [ lost signal ]
16:34:04 <lizadaly> Rob: We went for a general system that doesn't need to know the specific motivation of the system
16:34:11 <gcapiel> versus providing general comments or feedback
16:34:12 <azaroth> metadata vs annotation discussion:  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-openannotation/2013Oct/0001.html
16:34:15 <mgylling> q?
16:34:35 <azaroth> motivations; http://www.openannotation.org/spec/core/core.html#Motivations
16:34:42 <lizadaly> Markus: In the advanced model use cases section, cases 5 & 6
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16:34:52 <lizadaly> Markus: 6 is the user-manipulated case
16:35:25 <lizadaly> Rob: There is an object called 'state' which we have used for recording HTTP-level information (e.g. HTTP headers like content negotiation, time at which it should be applied)
16:36:00 <lizadaly> Rob: "Here is the time at which the annotation applies to the resource" which is not the same as whether you can retrieve that resource
16:36:19 <lizadaly> Rob: We envision using this process for user-manipulated annotations, though none are defined at this time
16:36:35 <lizadaly> Rob: Is there something specific to the digital publishing world in which it would be a "failure" if this were not defined?
16:36:50 <Zakim> +Liam
16:37:29 <lizadaly> Markus: In an educational setting, learners will have a quiz widget ('answer these 10 questions'); the teacher wants to annotation question 8 and makes the annotation; when the learners get into the quiz they should not see the annotation until they get to question 8
16:37:42 <lizadaly> Markus: There is no predictability in how this widget is built
16:38:12 <lizadaly> Rob: There might be an opportunity to attach to JS events "only display this onChange, etc"
16:38:24 <lizadaly> Rob: Because this is complex since there are no standards in how these widgets behave
16:38:35 <mgylling> q?
16:38:35 <lizadaly> ;Rob: ...I wanted to raise this with the group
16:39:10 <lizadaly> Markus: What is your sense of how complete this is in terms of use cases?
16:39:19 <Zakim> -dshkolnik
16:39:44 <lizadaly> Rob: Very small number of features present in the model that are not used by any of these use cases
16:40:00 <lizadaly> Rob: I could create cases for them but they would not be very relevant to this IG audience
16:40:06 <Zakim> +dshkolnik
16:40:07 <lizadaly> Rob: It is complete from my perspective
16:40:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:40:45 <lizadaly> Markus: We need to review this further to decide whether it is complete; are there things that seem to be missing right now?
16:40:48 <ivan> q+
16:41:11 <mgylling> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:41:27 <lizadaly> BillK: This may overlap with some categories we already have including versioning: how do we indicate the version of a publication that is being commented on?
16:41:46 <lizadaly> Rob: The way we have approached versioning is to look at the web architecture and go with what's there
16:42:17 <lizadaly> Rob: Hints: state of the resource at a time period is how we've tried to capture versioning in a neutral way
16:43:04 <lizadaly> Rob: Easier would be to give every version of a resource a URI (like Wikipedia)
16:43:33 <lizadaly> BillK: I'm thinking of annotation that is a critique or a correction that has been subsequently corrected
16:43:54 <lizadaly> BillK: The ability to then indicate whether the comment still applies or does not apply in a later version
16:44:20 <lizadaly> Rob: So, either multiple specific version to which it applies, or a range of time in which it applies
16:44:27 <lizadaly> BillK: This can only be applied after the fact
16:44:38 <lizadaly> Rob: The annotation and the publication may be in different systems
16:45:14 <lizadaly> Rob: We discussed this issue: when an annotation only applies in a specific case, we decided not to open that can of worms
16:45:27 <lizadaly> Rob: but we decided to tackle specific instances of this issue if they came up
16:46:04 <lizadaly> BillK: In the scholarly world: the mechanism by CrossRef is called CrossMark
16:46:13 <lizadaly> BillK: A user of a publication can see whether they have the latest version of the publication
16:46:30 <lizadaly> BillK: Important for medical use cases since they can get retracted
16:46:43 <lizadaly> Markus: Is this something we want to represent in the use case collection then?
16:47:01 <lizadaly> Rob: Nothing's been accepted yet, so we can rediscuss whether to tackle it
16:47:19 <lizadaly> BillK: I wasn't sure if this was a distinct use case or a variation on an existing one
16:47:59 <lizadaly> (Markus is having connection problems)
16:48:26 <ivan> ack ivan
16:48:53 <lizadaly> Ivan: The annotations themselves should/may be structured and therefore a formatted document
16:49:10 <lizadaly> Ivan: e.g. the annotation needs to have markup
16:49:36 <lizadaly> Rob: That use case is there; any resource can be a body of an annotation
16:49:44 <lizadaly> Rob: Including cat images
16:49:53 <ivan> q?
16:50:06 <Zakim> -Sharad
16:50:22 <lizadaly> Ivan questions the utility of a fish for connection resolution
16:50:31 <lizadaly> Ivan: Next steps, Rob?
16:51:05 <lizadaly> Rob: I will add the use case of whether an annotation is valid for a document at a particular state
16:51:17 <lizadaly> Rob: How do we move to more formal vetting? Do we want for the other task forces?
16:51:25 <lizadaly> s/want/wait/
16:51:46 <lizadaly> Ivan: We don't have any formal approach
16:51:58 <lizadaly> Ivan: The unit of the task force is the entire IG
16:52:10 <lizadaly> Ivan: The IG should get some time to review the UCs
16:52:26 <lizadaly> Ivan: and then say yes/no
16:52:34 <lizadaly> Ivan: Assuming they agree... what is the next step?
16:52:49 <lizadaly> Rob: Markus and I will take the UCs back to the IDPF and to the community group
16:53:21 <lizadaly> Rob: Within the community group we can help with the annotations packages problems and system-to-system APIs
16:53:41 <lizadaly> Rob: We haven't want to formalize metadata in that group but could take a stab at it for this audience and for accessibility
16:54:36 <lizadaly> Ivan: What I would like to see: 2 documents, 1 is looking at the use cases: are there requirements that lead to missing features?
16:55:36 <lizadaly> Ivan: 2. Particular to this task force: if the IG decides that they want to go for a WG, how do these use cases the charter of a possible WG?
16:55:43 <lizadaly> Ivan: 1 outcome is a draft charter
16:56:15 <lizadaly> Rob: Markus, Rob, and Paolo discussed using these UCs towards a charter
16:57:10 <lizadaly> Rob: Re: missing features in the OWP (Open Web Platform), would be helpful to have people in the other task forces with web experience look at whether those features are possible now
16:58:18 <lizadaly> Ivan: 3. Maybe require work with BillK's task force: identification of how parts of a document are targeted for annotation
16:58:30 <ivan> q?
16:59:08 <lizadaly> Dave Cramer: I volunteer for latinreq
16:59:34 <lizadaly> BillK: There will need to be a CSS discussion at that meeting too
16:59:45 <azaroth> ACTION: Rob to note the differences between javascript API vs inter-system web API
16:59:45 <trackbot> Error finding 'Rob'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/users>.
17:00:05 <azaroth> ACTION: azaroth to note the differences between javascript API vs inter-system web API
17:00:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-13 - Note the differences between javascript api vs inter-system web api [on Robert Sanderson - due 2013-12-23].
17:00:28 <Zakim> -gcapiel
17:00:46 <lizadaly> Dave Cramer: We will use the mailing list for discussions of that
17:01:18 <lizadaly> Thanks!
17:01:19 <azaroth> ACTION: azaroth to create new use case regarding description of when annotation is no longer relevant for a publication (eg corrections)
17:01:20 <mgylling> bye!
17:01:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-14 - Create new use case regarding description of when annotation is no longer relevant for a publication (eg corrections) [on Robert Sanderson - due 2013-12-23].
17:01:20 <Zakim> -fjh
17:01:21 <Zakim> -Suzanne_Taylor
17:01:22 <Zakim> -JeanKaplansky
17:01:23 <dshkolnik> bye
17:01:23 <Zakim> -benjaminsko
17:01:23 <Zakim> -Stearns
17:01:25 <Zakim> -Bill_Kasdorf
17:01:25 <Zakim> -Laura_Fowler
17:01:27 <Zakim> -azaroth
17:01:28 <Zakim> -dshkolnik
17:01:29 <Zakim> -dauwhe
17:01:30 <Zakim> -plinss
17:01:31 <Zakim> -olaf_druemmer
17:01:34 <Zakim> -Bert
17:01:38 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:01:39 <Zakim> -Liam
17:05:28 <azaroth> ivan: You're going to do the magic invocation for the minutes?
17:05:37 <ivan> yes
17:05:46 <ivan> I am working on the minutes
17:05:53 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:05:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/16-dpub-minutes.html ivan
17:06:13 <azaroth> Okay, thanks :) Have a great holidays (all!)
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18:47:59 <Zakim> -Liza
18:53:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, mgylling, in SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM
18:53:01 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM has ended
18:53:01 <Zakim> Attendees were mgylling, Ivan, +1.503.614.aaaa, +1.505.665.aabb, Liza, azaroth, Stearns, dauwhe, Sharad, fjh, Bill_Kasdorf, +1.408.431.aacc, gcapiel, plinss, Suzanne_Taylor,
18:53:02 <Zakim> ... dshkolnik, JeanKaplansky, Liam, Laura_Fowler, +49.305.770.aadd, olaf_druemmer, Bert, benjaminsko
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