15:01:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pf
15:01:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/09-pf-irc
15:01:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
15:01:14 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #pf
15:01:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
15:01:16 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)10:00AM already started
15:01:17 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
15:01:17 <trackbot> Date: 09 December 2013
15:01:26 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P10
15:01:35 <janina> zakim, ??P10 is me
15:01:37 <Zakim> +janina; got it
15:02:40 <Zakim> +Matt_King
15:03:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
15:03:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
15:03:59 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:05:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2013Dec/0001.html
15:06:25 <clown> clown has joined #pf
15:07:03 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
15:07:04 <MichaelC> zakim, call cooper-mobile
15:07:04 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
15:07:05 <Zakim> +Cooper
15:07:16 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
15:07:16 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
15:07:24 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
15:07:24 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
15:09:26 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #pf
15:10:41 <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:10:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina, Matt_King, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Cooper
15:11:46 <Zakim> +James_Craig
15:12:12 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
15:12:32 <jcraig> TOPIC: ARIA 1.0; any remaining comments?
15:12:33 <clown> UAIG comments:  https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/list?document_version_id=23
15:13:15 <jcraig> JS: accepted comments (will add notes pointing to 1.1)
15:13:52 <jcraig> RS: one comment was "banner should be landmark" (in HTML?)
15:14:12 <jcraig> JS: comments came in pretty late in the process
15:15:35 <mattking> mattking has joined #pf
15:16:00 <jcraig> TOPIC: outstanding implementation issues
15:16:21 <jcraig> RS: two features at risk: menu events and …
15:16:44 <jcraig> No ETA for WebKit or IE
15:18:07 <jcraig> MC: mark as at-risk in CR document; don't have to pull out until January.
15:18:40 <jcraig> MC: 17 Jan 2014 as deadline for implementation
15:18:59 <jcraig> MC: Publish PR on 28 Jan 2014
15:20:17 <jcraig> s/and …/and click handlers on elements with clickable roles/
15:20:32 <jcraig> RS: 508 refresh is coming soon, too
15:21:26 <jcraig> MK: Could we move that req from normative to informative
15:21:47 <jcraig> MC: We could do that, if we modify the at-risk statement
15:23:34 <jcraig> MC: Another section (text alternative) already lists change from normative to informative
15:24:15 <jcraig> (2B may be changed to informative)
15:24:36 <jcraig> Clown: tests pass (that one passes now)
15:25:35 <janina> scribe: janina
15:26:31 <janina> mc: Need to know by Thursday whether we can remove the "at risk" on name computation
15:28:22 <janina> mk: If we add informative option to menu events, we need to do so this week---by Thursday
15:31:21 <janina> clown: Will raise this on UAIG call
15:32:06 <jcraig> q+ to discuss the other at-risk feature: click events on clickable roles
15:32:45 <janina> mc: Joseph can add the note re ATK/AT-SPI changes
15:33:10 <jcraig> q+ to mention ISSUE-616 at-risk feature
15:33:23 <janina> mc: We have three versions of what the note does ... We need to decide
15:36:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:38:36 <janina> [discussion of whether to include a URI, and what that URI might point at]
15:39:28 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
15:39:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
15:39:42 <jcraig> JC: could use a redirect?
15:40:00 <jcraig> MC: Bad practice to change normative URI
15:40:28 <jcraig> RS: Tell her "We'll start work on it."
15:41:01 <jcraig> ack me
15:41:01 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to discuss the other at-risk feature: click events on clickable roles and to mention ISSUE-616 at-risk feature
15:41:13 <jcraig> issue-616?
15:41:13 <trackbot> issue-616 -- ISSUE: Review potentially at-risk statement "When the user triggers an element with a defined activation behavior in a manner other than clicking it, such as by pressing Enter, simulate a click on the element." -- closed
15:41:13 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/616
15:44:39 <jcraig> MC: could resolve in HTML
15:44:48 <jcraig> Clown: What about SVG?
15:45:08 <jcraig> RS: SVG 2 has tabindex; this could go there.
15:45:50 <jcraig> RS: Though this moves ARIA into the realm of affect mainstream user interface
15:46:05 <jcraig> Clown: Cynthia wants this section put back in for ARIA 1.1
15:46:13 <jcraig> TOPIC: ???
15:46:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: Publication schedule and Timeline
15:46:59 <jcraig> s/???/Publication schedule and Timeline/
15:47:09 <jcraig> s/Topic: Publication schedule and Timeline//
15:47:34 <jcraig> MC: on schedule, assuming director approval
15:47:59 <jcraig> MC: lots of work to do: Jan 28 schedule is aggressive, but doable.
15:49:01 <jcraig> JS: Need to make sure we're on the ball starting early January
15:49:28 <jcraig> MC: We'd announce CR on publication day: hopeful that's Jan 17th
15:49:46 <jcraig> s/CR/PR/
15:50:06 <jcraig> RS: Rec a month later?
15:50:35 <jcraig> MC: If we get AC feedback and support, yes. If we get feedback, will be required to address it.
15:51:01 <jcraig> MC: optimistically 5 Rec status weeks after PR
15:51:36 <jcraig> MC: lobby them to vote yes with no comments (best for us)
15:52:02 <jcraig> MC: if comments needed, encourage including concrete suggestions
15:52:08 <jcraig> TOPIC: aria-hidden
15:52:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Nov/0050.html
15:55:35 <jcraig> s/aria-hidden/@hidden/
15:56:11 <janina> q?
15:56:12 <jcraig> Implemented in browsers as: [hidden] { display: none; }
15:56:41 <janina> scribe: janina
15:56:57 <jcraig> coincides with hidden DOM property
15:57:00 <janina> rs: Steve intro'd concerns
15:57:08 <janina> rs: I agree this is loosely coupled to ARIA-Hidden
15:57:15 <jcraig> q+ to explain how/why @hidden was added
15:57:31 <jcraig> this is totally unrelated to aria-hidden
15:58:13 <janina> jc: Reason this is implemented is that every framework has something about this
15:58:14 <jcraig> frameworks implement this el.hide()
15:58:31 <janina> jc: Just to toggle display property
15:58:46 <jcraig> el.hidden = true
15:59:03 <jcraig> <el hidden> content prop
15:59:09 <jcraig> el.hidden DOM prop
15:59:24 <janina> jc: Change one, the other updated accordingly
15:59:52 <jcraig> [hidden] { display: none; }
16:00:02 <jcraig> default style sheet
16:00:38 <janina> rs: There was the discussion about how this relates to ARIA-Hidden
16:00:43 <janina> jc: But that's not this bug
16:00:48 <jcraig> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Nov/0050.html
16:00:49 <MichaelC> q+
16:01:18 <MichaelC> q+ to say you could set something to hidden with HTML, override the CSS to make it visible, but the AAPI mapping still suggests it´s hidden, right?
16:01:25 <jcraig> "concluded that the spec should say explicitly that hidden='' trumps all CSS."
16:01:39 <jcraig> this is a non-issue for accessibility, as long as the UA has a default rule implemented via display:none.
16:02:02 <MichaelC> ack j
16:02:02 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to explain how/why @hidden was added
16:02:25 <janina> ack jc
16:02:58 <jcraig> <el hidden>
16:03:07 <jcraig> el.hidden = false;
16:03:10 <jcraig> <el>
16:03:21 <jcraig> [hidden] select no longer applies
16:03:43 <jcraig> s/select/selector/
16:03:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574
16:04:01 <MichaelC> ack me
16:04:01 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say you could set something to hidden with HTML, override the CSS to make it visible, but the AAPI mapping still suggests it´s hidden, right?
16:04:19 <jcraig> Mozilla tracker discussion here: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=945194
16:04:54 <janina> mc: TF question potential conflict ARIA vs CSS
16:05:02 <clown> el.getComptuedStyle()  - what's the "display" property, if <el> (no hidden attribute)?
16:05:15 <jcraig> ""
16:06:42 <janina> mc: Remove hidden and returns CSS to default value
16:06:52 <janina> s/and //
16:07:22 <janina> mc: ONly issue is author overriding to make it nonhidden
16:07:32 <clown> [hidden] {display:block;}
16:07:34 <jcraig> so in author styles: [hidden] { display: block !important; }
16:08:24 <jcraig> I'd call that an author error
16:08:32 <jcraig> MC: and bizarre
16:08:52 <janina> mc: Choosing to create an inaccessible situation --- author choice
16:08:58 <janina> clown: how inaccessible?
16:09:19 <janina> jc: Discussion now to map hidden weak to aria
16:09:29 <jcraig> <el hidden> (weak mapping to aria-hidden)
16:09:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574
16:10:52 <janina> jc: A separate discussion whether to map weak and/or strong
16:13:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> While I sympathize with Tab's rationale in comment #8 (and had made the
16:13:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> same argument myself in an earlier mailing list thread), I think there
16:13:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> are two reasons to not do this. The first point was raised by Boris in
16:13:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> comment #16: "Making things with @hidden "display: none !important" in
16:13:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> the UA stylesheet would mean web [pages] cannot override the display at
16:13:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> all, ever." Secondly, it's possible for authors to opt-in to such a
16:13:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> behavior by adding this rule to one of their page stylesheets.
16:13:20 <janina> mc: Further down Ted says "this was considered, but we shouldn't do that, imo"
16:13:49 <janina> mc: As I read, Ted does not support !important
16:14:05 <janina> rs: So he supports overide?
16:14:27 <janina> rs: So one needs to look at css in addition?
16:14:47 <janina> mc: That's our concern when we filed the bug
16:15:32 <janina> rs: We don't have an implementation guide that addresses this and includes CSS considerations
16:16:08 <janina> rs: An html5 would have to consider the special case for hidden that can be overridden
16:16:14 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#exclude_elements2
16:16:51 <clown> "Elements, including their descendents, that have host language semantics specifying that the element is not displayed, such as CSS display:none or visibility:hidden or HTML 5 hidden attribute."
16:17:10 <janina> clown: Above from UAIG 1.0
16:17:33 <janina> rs: doesn't address marked hidden but overriden to be visible, which is being allowed by 19277 resolution
16:17:59 <janina> mc: H5 wg saying "we don't want to enforce consistancy"
16:18:13 <janina> s/a/e/
16:18:58 <janina> mc: TF bug asked to mark this as "important"
16:19:14 <janina> mc: We're OK defining this as "author error"
16:19:27 <clown> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tests-cr-exit.html
16:19:32 <janina> rs: but really not
16:19:56 <janina> mc: If we don't address this in our docs, we have to live with it
16:20:07 <janina> rs: We have to address this in an html5 implementation doc
16:20:15 <jcraig> q+
16:20:16 <jcraig> The resolution should potentially include:
16:20:17 <jcraig> 1. Make it an author error/warning to override the CSS display of elements matching [hidden] in such a way that it "unhides" the content.
16:20:17 <jcraig> 2. Make the @aria-hidden weak mapping to @hidden only apply to the rendered display outcome of the element with all CSS rules applied. (e.g. <el hidden style="display:block"> would not map to aria-hidden="true")
16:24:00 <janina> [discussion of whether people like, or ever liked, ARIA-Hidden]
16:26:49 <janina> jc: Think we need both to resolve the issue
16:27:01 <janina> clown: really like the first
16:27:46 <janina> rs: #1 would wcag under "robust"
16:27:57 <janina> rs: wcag 4.x
16:28:21 <Zakim> -James_Craig
16:28:45 <janina> rs: any problem with #2
16:28:46 <jcraig> s/for work/to catch my shuttle to work/
16:29:00 <jcraig> jcraig has left #pf
16:29:47 <janina> rs: Don't think #1 is enforcable, but can be a WCAG error
16:29:54 <Zakim> -Matt_King
16:29:58 <janina> s/enforcable/enforceable/
16:33:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Michael Take the following text to the WCAG WG as warning or violation under robust "Make it an author error/warning to override the CSS display of elements matching [hidden] in such a way that it "unhides" the content."
16:33:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1319 - Take the following text to the wcag wg as warning or violation under robust "make it an author error/warning to override the css display of elements matching [hidden] in such a way that it "unhides" the content." [on Michael Cooper - due 2013-12-16].
16:34:09 <clown> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19277
16:34:20 <clown> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19277#c21
16:34:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> Resolution: James Craig to add comment to defect 19277 "Make the @aria-hidden weak mapping to @hidden only apply to the rendered display outcome of the element with all CSS rules applied. (e.g. <el hidden style="display:block"> would not map to aria-hidden="true")"
16:34:58 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:35:01 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:35:14 <Zakim> -Cooper
16:35:17 <Zakim> -janina
16:35:18 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(ARIA)10:00AM has ended
16:35:18 <Zakim> Attendees were janina, Matt_King, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, James_Craig
16:35:23 <janina> zakim, bye
16:35:23 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pf
16:35:30 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
16:35:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/09-pf-minutes.html janina
16:35:39 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
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