16:00:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
16:00:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-forms-irc
16:00:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:00:25 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
16:00:27 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
16:00:27 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start now
16:00:28 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
16:00:28 <trackbot> Date: 04 December 2013
16:00:29 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
16:00:34 <Steven> Chair: Steven
16:00:58 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Dec/0003.html
16:01:06 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Dec/0003.html
16:01:48 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
16:01:55 <Zakim> +??P12
16:01:59 <Steven> zakim, I am ?
16:01:59 <Zakim> +Steven; got it
16:04:00 <Zakim> +ebruchez
16:04:35 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:04:37 <alain> Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
16:04:37 <Zakim> ok, alain, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
16:04:37 <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
16:04:38 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
16:04:39 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:05:39 <Steven> Regrets: Philip
16:06:23 <Zakim> +nvdbleek
16:07:22 <Steven> Steven: On the linkedIn discussion, there were two people announcing online Forms composers
16:07:32 <Steven> s/Forms/XForms
16:08:29 <Steven> http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Dutch-Symposium-on-XForms-1230557.S.5811093383711580163?qid=c476d82a-f5f1-49d4-a2ad-5b669fb16d5f&trk=groups_most_popular-0-b-ttl&goback=%2Egmp_1230557
16:08:41 <Steven> Topic: ACTION-1959 - Propose how to fix the implicit model identification
16:08:41 <Steven> with context nodes
16:08:41 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Dec/0001.html
16:09:36 <Steven> Erik: Expressions in XPath2 don't necessarily need a context node.
16:10:38 <Steven> ... there is a total of 12 refs to the model "associated with
16:10:38 <Steven> the in-scope evaluation context node"
16:10:49 <Steven> s/the/... the
16:13:03 <Steven> ... [describes the content of the mail]
16:14:18 <Steven> Steven: Is the problem only with events?
16:14:23 <Steven> Erik: With actions
16:14:26 <Steven> Steven: Oh yes.
16:16:08 <Steven> Steven: It would be a pain if you always had to say which model was involved
16:16:26 <Steven> Erik: Exactly. I think it should still be optional.
16:16:58 <Steven> ... I think though that if it is not there, it shouldn't require a context node.
16:18:29 <Steven> Steven: So there's always a default model. And you switch with the model attribute.
16:18:54 <Steven> Nick: It's only when you start using variables, that we might get different behaviour.
16:19:24 <Steven> Erik: The bind attribute also changes the context.
16:19:46 <Steven> Nick: Isn't there a restriction that you can't switch model and then use a bind from a different model.
16:19:49 <Steven> Erik: Not sure
16:20:05 <Steven> s/model./model?/
16:20:19 <Steven> Erik: Let me look.
16:21:55 <Steven> ... Hmm, well our implementation doesn't check for that. It's not ambiguous.
16:24:00 <Steven> Nick: At last week's call, Erik gave an example of the problem with variables
16:25:29 <nvdbleek> Example of something contra-intuitive:
16:25:34 <nvdbleek> <xf:var name="my-var" value="foo" model="model-2"/>
16:25:35 <nvdbleek> <xf:repeat ref="$my-var" model="model-1">
16:25:36 <nvdbleek> <nvdbleek> <!-- inscope model is model-2 NOT model-1 -->
16:25:37 <nvdbleek> <nvdbleek> <xf:var name="my-var" value="foo" model="model-2"/>
16:25:38 <nvdbleek> <nvdbleek> <xf:repeat ref="$my-var" model="model-1">
16:25:39 <nvdbleek> <nvdbleek> <!-- inscope model is model-2 NOT model-1 -->
16:25:40 <nvdbleek> <nvdbleek> </xf:repeat>
16:25:47 <Steven> Steven: Is there a proposal for fixing the variable problem?
16:27:24 <Steven> Erik: I think that it is a corner case
16:27:50 <Steven> ... I think a better solution to use the model attribute, and bind attribute rather than the context
16:28:35 <Steven> Steven: Are there examples of Forms that wouldn't work any more? Would it affect interoperability?
16:29:00 <Steven> Erik: Let me think.
16:29:15 <Steven> ... I cannot think of any behaviour that would change.
16:29:54 <Steven> ... It seems to be quite a corner case.
16:30:14 <nvdbleek> From the section 4.1 Evaluation Context:
16:30:15 <nvdbleek> Once the context item of the in-scope evaluation context has been determined according to the rules above, if the element expresses a model attribute that refers to a model other than the one containing the context item (if the context item isn't an instance node, the model is the model specified on the element or the model of its parent if no model attribute is specified on the element), then the context item of the in-scope evaluation context is change[CUT]
16:30:15 <nvdbleek> the top-level document element node of the default instance of the referenced model, and the context position and size are changed to 1.
16:30:23 <Steven> ... I rarely use those actions.
16:30:36 <Steven> Steven: I agree. In fact there existence at all is a bit odd.
16:31:03 <Steven> s/there/their/
16:31:49 <Steven> Nick: I think everything will be compatibel, except for variables, but they weren't in 1.1 anyway.
16:31:55 <Steven> s/bel/ble/
16:32:38 <Steven> Steven: Is everyone happy with this?
16:32:42 <Steven> Alain: Yes, no problem.
16:33:00 <Steven> Steven: Ship it!
16:33:08 <Steven> Nick: Someone has to make the change.
16:33:37 <Steven> ACTION: Erik to implement solution for action-159
16:33:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1962 - Implement solution for action-159 [on Erik Bruchez - due 2013-12-11].
16:33:44 <Steven> close ACTION-1959
16:33:44 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-1959.
16:34:00 <Steven> Topic: Changed a few references from *node* to *item*
16:34:00 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Dec/0002.html
16:34:22 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:34:24 <Steven> Erik: Pretty small changes.
16:34:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:35:18 <Steven> Steven: Do we define "context item"?
16:35:22 <Steven> Erik: Yes.
16:37:10 <nvdbleek> http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath20/#dt-context-item
16:41:46 <Steven> Steven: I'm having trouble finding a reference to the definition. It ought to be in the Glossary, I think, at least.
16:42:01 <Steven> ... item is defined there
16:43:53 <Steven> ... I guess these are editorial issues
16:44:06 <Steven> Nick: I'll fix the alphabetical order.
16:44:23 <Steven> Erik: There is a confusion, since we have "model item" which is a different thing.
16:45:19 <Steven> Steven: Should 'node' be in the glossary?
16:46:08 <Steven> ... How about 'Context item'?
16:46:38 <Steven> Erik: There are 1200+ refs to 'node' in the spec.
16:47:57 <Steven> ... we need to say that a node is an XML node. Is that in the XML spec?
16:48:55 <ebruchez> XPath 1.0: "XPath models an XML document as a tree of nodes"
16:49:33 <ebruchez> XPath 2.0: http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-datamodel/#dt-node
16:49:37 <Steven> Steven: So 'node' is defined in XPath.
16:51:07 <Steven> ... so we should include node in the glossary pointing to XPath?
16:51:59 <ebruchez> DOM: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/core.html
16:53:00 <ebruchez> DOM: "The DOM presents documents as a hierarchy of Node objects that also implement other, more specialized interfaces"
16:53:03 <Steven> Xpath1: http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath/#data-model
16:53:25 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:53:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:54:18 <Steven> Erik: We do explicitely state that we use an XPath data model.
16:54:21 <ebruchez> See 3.2.2 The instance Element
16:54:52 <Steven> Steven: So we can define node as 'the definition as used in the XPath data model'.
16:56:08 <Steven> Steven: Can you add it Nick?
16:57:08 <Steven> Nick: We already have a ref to the XPath data model?
16:57:11 <Steven> Steven: Yes.
16:57:37 <Steven> Topic: AOB
16:57:43 <Steven> Erik: None from me.
16:57:50 <Steven> [ADJOURNED]
16:58:00 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:58:01 <Zakim> -ebruchez
16:58:01 <Zakim> -Steven
16:58:05 <alain> alain has left #forms
16:58:27 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:58:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see nvdbleek
16:58:35 <Steven> zakim, drop n
16:58:35 <Zakim> nvdbleek is being disconnected
16:58:35 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
16:58:36 <Zakim> Attendees were Steven, ebruchez, [IPcaller], nvdbleek
16:58:44 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/12/04-forms-minutes.html Steven
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