IRC log of mlw-lt on 2013-11-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

08:42:48 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #mlw-lt
08:42:48 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-irc
08:42:51 [fsasaki]
meeting: MLW-LT WG
08:42:54 [fsasaki]
chair: dave
08:42:59 [fsasaki]
agenda: http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Madrid_November_2013_f2f#Wednesday_27th
08:43:11 [fsasaki]
topic: outreach script again
08:43:51 [fsasaki]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Nov/0063.html
08:44:51 [Arle]
Arle has joined #mlw-lt
08:49:07 [fsasaki]
elena: nice example of term variants
08:49:20 [fsasaki]
.. in the LEMON model we can account for these
08:53:21 [pnietoca]
pnietoca has joined #mlw-lt
08:53:29 [mdelolmo]
mdelolmo has joined #mlw-lt
08:53:32 [pnietoca]
present+ pnietoca
08:53:58 [mdelolmo]
present+ mdelolmo
08:54:32 [Ankit]
Ankit has joined #mlw-lt
08:55:14 [Ankit]
present+ Ankit
08:55:52 [daveL]
daveL has joined #mlw-lt
08:55:58 [Arle]
ITS 2.0 Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/W3CITS20
08:56:44 [JohnJ]
JohnJ has joined #mlw-lt
08:56:55 [JohnJ]
present+ John
08:59:12 [emontiel]
emontiel has joined #mlw-lt
09:00:07 [leroy]
leroy has joined #mlw-lt
09:00:14 [leroy]
present+ leroy
09:04:13 [leroy]
discussing both approaches for readiness in the interest group
09:05:01 [leroy]
going to use linguaserve definition and spec for readiness
09:06:50 [leroy]
daveL: lets go through the readiness spec defined by linguaserve and do some corrections
09:08:54 [pedro]
pedro has joined #mlw-lt
09:09:44 [leroy]
daveL: discussing why readiness is extensible and why no other category is
09:11:55 [leroy]
pedro discussing local usage of readiness
09:12:07 [leroy]
pablo
09:13:14 [pedro]
present+ pedro
09:14:30 [leroy]
dave and pablo discussing about the defaults of local usage of readiness
09:15:05 [pnietoca]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2013Aug/att-0029/Readiness-CMSExtension_v01.docx
09:15:51 [omstefanov]
omstefanov has joined #mlw-lt
09:16:01 [Ankit]
Ankit has joined #mlw-lt
09:16:11 [omstefanov]
present+ omstefanov
09:16:22 [pnietoca]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2013Aug/att-0029/Readiness-CMSExtension_v01.docx
09:17:19 [leroy]
pnietoca posts link for linguaserve spec for readiness
09:20:43 [leroy]
pnietoca and daveL discussing ready-to-process attribute and the usage of a comma separated list
09:23:14 [leroy]
daveL discussing the usage of m extension from unicode standard and its potential usage for encoding the values in the ready-to-process list
09:23:33 [leroy]
daveL: lots of other ones though that could be investigated
09:24:01 [leroy]
daveL: but the m extension from unicode maybe best
09:24:57 [leroy]
discussion starts about processPointer
09:25:54 [leroy]
daveL: do linguaserve use process pointer
09:27:34 [leroy]
pnietoca: we don't use it a lot but it can be useful
09:28:23 [leroy]
daveL: it doesn't do the work of a pointer as defined in the standard
09:30:02 [leroy]
daveL: we could rename processPointer
09:30:16 [leroy]
processPointer was renamed
09:30:42 [leroy]
discussion starts on revised
09:31:15 [leroy]
daveL: do we need revised?
09:31:45 [leroy]
pedro: we could use version control
09:33:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
09:33:16 [fsasaki]
present+ felix
09:33:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
09:33:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
09:33:53 [leroy]
daveL: revised is tricky with yes/no it will work like a lock
09:34:10 [fsasaki]
topic: readiness again
09:34:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
09:34:33 [leroy]
daveL: an approach similar to wordpress to just flag revsions in documents
09:35:19 [leroy]
daveL: we could rename revised to update
09:35:52 [leroy]
pnietoca: ok
09:36:38 [leroy]
daveL: change yes/no to int value
09:37:18 [leroy]
omstefanov: int value may not be a good idea lots of other types of CMS systems
09:37:47 [leroy]
pedro: not the big of a worry
09:37:59 [leroy]
Arle: what about using a timestamp?
09:38:52 [leroy]
omstefanov: full timestamp is best UTC preferable or whatever timezone they are in
09:39:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
09:39:27 [leroy]
revised changed to revised-update
09:40:42 [leroy]
time stamping agreed
09:40:53 [Arle]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601
09:41:34 [Arle]
Example: 2013-11-26T19:11:23+00:00
09:41:53 [Arle]
or 2013-11-26T19:11:23+05:30
09:43:27 [r12a]
r12a has joined #mlw-lt
09:43:44 [omstefanov]
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601 where you have clear choices
09:43:49 [leroy]
discussion about the time format and timezones
09:44:27 [leroy]
action on pnietoca to look into ISO_8601
09:44:27 [trackbot]
Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/users>.
09:44:48 [pnietoca]
action: pnietoca to check on ISO 8601
09:44:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-587 - Check on iso 8601 [on Pablo Nieto Caride - due 2013-12-04].
09:45:44 [leroy]
discussion on ready-to-publish
09:46:10 [omstefanov]
Combined date and time in UTC: should either be "2013-11-26T19:11:23+00:00" (for UTC/GMT) or "2013-11-26T19:11:23+01:00" (for current Madrid time) or simply 2013-11-26T19:11Z (where Z=Zulu=UTC)
09:47:41 [leroy]
pedro: ready-to-publish is redundant we can remove it from the spec
09:47:52 [Jirka]
Jirka has joined #mlw-lt
09:48:09 [leroy]
discussion starts on priority
09:48:28 [leroy]
daveL: why do we have a range
09:49:12 [leroy]
pedro: it is important to see the priority of a document for a client
09:49:34 [leroy]
daveL adding in example of priorityto readiness spec
09:50:12 [leroy]
discussion on ready-at and complete-by
09:51:01 [leroy]
daveL: we need to look at what type of time stamping will be done which will be done be pablo
09:51:33 [leroy]
s/be/by/
09:53:56 [leroy]
pedro and daveL discussing about how much content is being translating between languages and tracking it
09:54:10 [leroy]
daveL: could be track in prov in ITS
09:55:16 [leroy]
daveL: look at standard encoding for tracking translation work
09:55:36 [leroy]
daveL: would be nice if it was same as prov
09:56:09 [leroy]
daveL: main part of editing complete maybe we could add it to interest group this week
09:56:30 [leroy]
discussion on default value list
09:56:35 [leroy]
for processPointer
09:57:25 [leroy]
daveL: this is the Activity model we are using in CNGL which covers all the interactions that occur within the group
09:58:29 [leroy]
daveL showed model to show how activities could be recorded using a linked model and provenance
09:59:19 [leroy]
processPointer defaults values show default possible activities
09:59:52 [leroy]
daveL: it is tricky to define this activity model
10:00:25 [leroy]
pedro: the usage of a similar model in provenance would be key
10:01:35 [leroy]
question about where default values from processPointer came from
10:02:09 [leroy]
pedro: it was developed in a talks about readiness
10:03:31 [leroy]
pedro: the list was quite long but was narrowed down over time
10:04:00 [leroy]
daveL: processname could be reviewed again
10:04:33 [leroy]
fsasaki: there is a lot of work in the provenance area on this
10:04:55 [leroy]
fsasaki: important to hook this into this process
10:06:24 [leroy]
daveL: hard to define classification but work has been done in CNGL in the contentprocess model
10:07:05 [leroy]
query has this content model be from CNGL been used
10:07:09 [leroy]
daveL: no
10:08:31 [leroy]
asun: work has been done in provenance standard
10:08:48 [leroy]
asun: should be looked at for 2020
10:09:48 [leroy]
asun: usage of provenance and workflows is key
10:11:04 [leroy]
daveL: we should look into that with you asun.
10:11:27 [leroy]
daveL: I will post it on the ITS wiki
10:11:36 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/its/wiki/IssuesAndProposedFeatures
10:11:44 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/its/wiki/IssuesAndProposedFeatures#Proposal:_.22Readiness.22_data_category
10:13:33 [Nieves]
Nieves has joined #mlw-lt
10:14:19 [leroy]
going for coffee break
10:16:49 [leroy]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:16:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html leroy
10:53:18 [Arle]
Arle has joined #mlw-lt
10:56:09 [daveL]
daveL has joined #mlw-lt
10:57:56 [fsasaki]
topic: ITS ontolog and conversion to NIF
10:57:57 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#conversion-to-nif
10:59:03 [fsasaki]
topic: wiki clean up
10:59:03 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/
10:59:55 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Main_Page
11:00:11 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/File:D1.2.2_M24.pdf
11:00:15 [pedro]
pedro has joined #mlw-lt
11:01:08 [swalter]
swalter has joined #mlw-lt
11:01:19 [swalter]
present+ swalter
11:01:46 [fsasaki]
dave: only sec. 4
11:02:44 [fsasaki]
action: nieves to convert http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/File:D1.2.2_M24.pdf to wikitext and put that as main wiki page
11:02:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-588 - Convert http://www.w3.org/international/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/file:d1.2.2_m24.pdf to wikitext and put that as main wiki page [on Nieves Sande - due 2013-12-04].
11:03:26 [fsasaki]
.. plus executive summary, part "as follows: ..."
11:03:38 [emontiel]
emontiel has joined #mlw-lt
11:03:38 [Nieves]
great!
11:03:44 [fsasaki]
:)
11:03:58 [fsasaki]
thansk a lot, Nieves, in advance
11:04:06 [fsasaki]
topic: ITS IG main page
11:04:08 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/its/wiki/Main_Page
11:05:09 [fsasaki]
have call the wednesday's every 3-4 weeks, usual time (2 p.m. CET)
11:05:21 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/its/wiki/Main_Page#Work_items.2C_issues.2C_actions
11:05:49 [fsasaki]
include link to readiness
11:06:10 [fsasaki]
action: felix to clean up ITS IG wiki main page
11:06:10 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-589 - Clean up its ig wiki main page [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-12-04].
11:06:48 [fsasaki]
topic: ITS ontology
11:07:05 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#conversion-to-nif
11:08:16 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/examples/nif/EX-nif-conversion-output.ttl
11:14:31 [fsasaki]
dave: two remaining issues
11:14:39 [fsasaki]
.. need to document the ontology
11:15:10 [fsasaki]
.. the source definition is in the ITS2 spec, and their are grouped according to functionality
11:15:44 [fsasaki]
.. there is a copy of the ITS2 ontology on the NIF site, good place to document the ontology
11:16:03 [fsasaki]
.. idea would be to put comments into NIF and generate HTML doc from that
11:16:22 [fsasaki]
.. need to agree how we want to add the docu:
11:16:50 [fsasaki]
.. have a description for each attribute, e.g. just take definition of taIdentRef in the turtle comment
11:17:20 [fsasaki]
.. but also need a line that says: this corresponds to the "taIdentRef" atribute which is part of the "TA" data category in the ITS spec
11:18:57 [fsasaki]
.. I can take a copy of the turtle and work with that
11:19:08 [fsasaki]
.. and pass it around to comment
11:19:37 [fsasaki]
ITS ontology is here: http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/rdf-content/its-rdf.rdf
11:20:25 [fsasaki]
dave: then there are issues with NIF conversion: you always need to clear up white space and you loose reference to document
11:21:37 [fsasaki]
.. fragment identifier in NIF was another issue, to discuss also in LIDER probably
11:22:08 [fsasaki]
.. some work needed to register a mime type etc., which may take quite long
11:22:37 [fsasaki]
.. so in ITS IG we just put the comments in turtle file and generate HTML from that
11:23:14 [fsasaki]
.. can work on github / NIF on this, once this is stable we can put it back to W3C site
11:24:33 [fsasaki]
action: dave to work on ITS ontology documentation in turtle - due 15 december
11:24:33 [trackbot]
Error finding 'dave'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/users>.
11:24:41 [fsasaki]
action: daveL to work on ITS ontology documentation in turtle - due 15 december
11:24:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-590 - Work on its ontology documentation in turtle [on David Lewis - due 2013-12-15].
11:25:53 [fsasaki]
topic: h2020 topics
11:25:56 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/2013/11/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html#item11
11:32:35 [fsasaki]
.. but you continue to use "dir" with "rtl" or "ltr"
11:32:35 [fsasaki]
richard: html5 and directionality
11:32:40 [fsasaki]
olaf-michael: relation between directionality and unicode characters?
11:32:49 [fsasaki]
richard: there are new characters in unicode 6.3
11:32:51 [fsasaki]
.. "dir" attribute is isolating. the "bdi" attribute will still be avail.
11:32:56 [fsasaki]
.. instead of embedding they isolate
11:33:04 [fsasaki]
.. and unicode has related recommendations
11:33:17 [fsasaki]
.. so these characters now have an equivalence in HTML and CSS
11:33:50 [fsasaki]
.. old "rte" and "lte" (= embedding) don't have equivelance any more
11:34:30 [Arle_]
Arle_ has joined #mlw-lt
11:34:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
11:35:10 [fsasaki]
richard: the default CSS stylesheet will be with isolation as the default
11:35:27 [fsasaki]
dave: implications on ITS2?
11:35:37 [fsasaki]
.. the HTML world superseeds that
11:35:49 [fsasaki]
richard: there was nothing for XML anyway, so no effect
11:36:01 [fsasaki]
.. you have to use CSS for XML anyway
11:36:11 [fsasaki]
.. the new CSS stuff uses isolation
11:36:16 [Arle_]
Arle_ has joined #mlw-lt
11:36:21 [fsasaki]
.. the ITS2 spec: it will have to be changed
11:36:29 [fsasaki]
.. but not huge
11:36:39 [fsasaki]
.. think also about whether you want to include bdi
11:37:04 [fsasaki]
dave: so a big impact on ITS?
11:37:10 [fsasaki]
richard: some things that need to change
11:37:29 [fsasaki]
dave: at the moment there is not a critical mass of new things that we would straight do for ITS
11:38:07 [fsasaki]
richard: could also happen in i18n group
11:38:18 [fsasaki]
.. ruby extension spec is getting wide approval
11:38:30 [fsasaki]
.. have implemnetation committments in webkit and blink
11:38:35 [fsasaki]
.. now about ruby:
11:38:39 [fsasaki]
s/implemnetation/implementation/
11:40:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
11:40:41 [fsasaki]
richard: above is situation for ruby markup
11:40:51 [fsasaki]
.. ruby needs CSS support too
11:41:01 [fsasaki]
.. that will come in an extended period of time
11:41:16 [fsasaki]
.. that is not related to ITS either
11:41:36 [fsasaki]
.. so that is a significantly different model from what is in ITS 1.0
11:41:53 [fsasaki]
dave: html guys are on top of that
11:42:04 [fsasaki]
.. there was no pressing need on the XML side
11:43:21 [fsasaki]
felix: just need people / implementers who want to do that
11:44:59 [fsasaki]
asun: for h2020 some things that are not incremental are needed
11:45:09 [fsasaki]
.. for "real" research not a continuation is needed, but something disruptive
11:45:36 [fsasaki]
.. there are many different issues, e.g: how to use linked data for translation / localization
11:45:42 [fsasaki]
.. for any kind of language technology
11:45:59 [fsasaki]
.. e.g. using linked data in translation memories
11:47:17 [fsasaki]
.. focus would be value chain of data
11:49:57 [fsasaki]
dave showing picture of open web platform
11:50:36 [fsasaki]
dave: can move things from the localiation are more into the browser
11:50:43 [fsasaki]
.. this is also kind of bottom up
11:50:56 [fsasaki]
.. but: in ITS we have expertise how to annotate content
11:51:09 [fsasaki]
.. in LIDER we have experience in work with LOD
11:51:21 [fsasaki]
.. how to make the link between metadata and content
11:52:47 [fsasaki]
.. including multimedia content
11:54:07 [r12a]
r12a has joined #mlw-lt
11:54:23 [fsasaki]
.. you propose to add some kind of multilingual part
11:54:24 [fsasaki]
asun: there is existing platforms in LOD communtiy
11:55:21 [fsasaki]
dave: bring in various content areas in: mobile, epublishing, ...
11:55:46 [fsasaki]
.. our expertise in the crossover area
11:55:54 [fsasaki]
.. crossover between LOD and content
11:56:27 [fsasaki]
asun: at this moment there are some projects that try to enrich content
11:56:41 [fsasaki]
.. so this could be seen as yet another project for enriching
11:56:47 [fsasaki]
.. what is the added value?
11:57:08 [fsasaki]
.. key is: linked data is not already taken into account, in teh translation process
11:58:07 [fsasaki]
dave: this idea is kind of incremental
11:58:28 [fsasaki]
asun: in h2020 we need a topic that nobody will propose
11:58:40 [fsasaki]
pedro: main pain item is quality
11:58:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:02:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:02:46 [fsasaki]
adjourn for now
12:02:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:04:08 [JohnJ]
JohnJ has left #mlw-lt