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08:42:51 <fsasaki> meeting: MLW-LT WG
08:42:54 <fsasaki> chair: dave
08:42:59 <fsasaki> agenda: http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Madrid_November_2013_f2f#Wednesday_27th
08:43:11 <fsasaki> topic: outreach script again
08:43:51 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Nov/0063.html
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08:49:07 <fsasaki> elena: nice example of term variants
08:49:20 <fsasaki> .. in the LEMON model we can account for these
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08:53:32 <pnietoca> present+ pnietoca
08:53:58 <mdelolmo> present+ mdelolmo
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08:55:14 <Ankit> present+ Ankit
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08:55:58 <Arle> ITS 2.0 Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/W3CITS20
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08:56:55 <JohnJ> present+ John
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09:00:14 <leroy> present+ leroy
09:04:13 <leroy> discussing  both approaches for readiness in the interest group
09:05:01 <leroy> going to use linguaserve definition and spec for readiness
09:06:50 <leroy> daveL: lets go through the readiness spec defined by linguaserve and do some corrections
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09:09:44 <leroy> daveL: discussing why readiness is extensible and why no other category is
09:11:55 <leroy> pedro discussing local usage of readiness
09:12:07 <leroy> pablo
09:13:14 <pedro> present+ pedro
09:14:30 <leroy> dave and pablo discussing about the defaults of local usage of readiness
09:15:05 <pnietoca> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2013Aug/att-0029/Readiness-CMSExtension_v01.docx
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09:16:11 <omstefanov> present+ omstefanov
09:16:22 <pnietoca> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2013Aug/att-0029/Readiness-CMSExtension_v01.docx
09:17:19 <leroy> pnietoca posts link for linguaserve spec for readiness
09:20:43 <leroy> pnietoca and daveL discussing ready-to-process attribute and the usage of a comma separated list
09:23:14 <leroy> daveL discussing the usage of m extension from unicode standard and its potential usage for encoding the values in the ready-to-process list
09:23:33 <leroy> daveL: lots of other ones though that could be investigated
09:24:01 <leroy> daveL: but the m extension from unicode maybe best
09:24:57 <leroy> discussion starts about processPointer
09:25:54 <leroy> daveL: do linguaserve use process pointer
09:27:34 <leroy> pnietoca: we don't use it a lot but it can be useful
09:28:23 <leroy> daveL: it doesn't do the work of a pointer as defined in the standard
09:30:02 <leroy> daveL: we could rename processPointer
09:30:16 <leroy> processPointer was renamed
09:30:42 <leroy> discussion starts on revised
09:31:15 <leroy> daveL: do we need revised?
09:31:45 <leroy> pedro: we could use version control
09:33:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
09:33:16 <fsasaki> present+ felix
09:33:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
09:33:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
09:33:53 <leroy> daveL: revised is tricky with yes/no it will work like a lock
09:34:10 <fsasaki> topic: readiness again
09:34:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
09:34:33 <leroy> daveL: an approach similar to wordpress to just flag revsions in documents
09:35:19 <leroy> daveL: we could  rename revised to update
09:35:52 <leroy> pnietoca: ok
09:36:38 <leroy> daveL: change yes/no to int value
09:37:18 <leroy> omstefanov: int value may not be a good idea lots of other types of CMS systems
09:37:47 <leroy> pedro: not the big of a worry
09:37:59 <leroy> Arle: what about using a timestamp?
09:38:52 <leroy> omstefanov: full timestamp is best UTC preferable or whatever timezone they are in
09:39:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
09:39:27 <leroy> revised changed to revised-update
09:40:42 <leroy> time stamping agreed
09:40:53 <Arle> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601
09:41:34 <Arle> Example: 2013-11-26T19:11:23+00:00
09:41:53 <Arle> or 2013-11-26T19:11:23+05:30
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09:43:44 <omstefanov> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601 where you have clear choices
09:43:49 <leroy> discussion about the time format and timezones
09:44:27 <leroy> action on pnietoca to look into ISO_8601
09:44:27 <trackbot> Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/users>.
09:44:48 <pnietoca> action: pnietoca to check on ISO 8601
09:44:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-587 - Check on iso 8601 [on Pablo Nieto Caride - due 2013-12-04].
09:45:44 <leroy> discussion on ready-to-publish
09:46:10 <omstefanov> Combined date and time in UTC: should either be "2013-11-26T19:11:23+00:00" (for UTC/GMT) or "2013-11-26T19:11:23+01:00" (for current Madrid time) or simply  2013-11-26T19:11Z (where Z=Zulu=UTC)
09:47:41 <leroy> pedro: ready-to-publish is redundant we can remove it from the spec
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09:48:09 <leroy> discussion starts on priority
09:48:28 <leroy> daveL: why do we have a range
09:49:12 <leroy> pedro: it is important to see the priority of a document for a client
09:49:34 <leroy> daveL adding in example of priorityto readiness spec
09:50:12 <leroy> discussion on ready-at and complete-by
09:51:01 <leroy> daveL: we need to look at what type of time stamping will be done which will be done be pablo
09:51:33 <leroy> s/be/by/
09:53:56 <leroy> pedro and daveL discussing about how much content is being translating between languages and tracking it
09:54:10 <leroy> daveL: could be track in prov in ITS
09:55:16 <leroy> daveL: look at standard encoding for tracking translation work
09:55:36 <leroy> daveL: would be nice if it was same as prov
09:56:09 <leroy> daveL: main part of editing complete maybe we could add it to interest group this week
09:56:30 <leroy> discussion on default value list
09:56:35 <leroy> for processPointer
09:57:25 <leroy> daveL: this is the Activity model we are using in CNGL which covers all the interactions that occur within the group
09:58:29 <leroy> daveL showed model to show how activities could be recorded using a linked model and provenance
09:59:19 <leroy> processPointer defaults values show default possible activities
09:59:52 <leroy> daveL:  it is tricky to define this activity model
10:00:25 <leroy> pedro: the usage of a similar model in provenance would be key
10:01:35 <leroy> question about where default values from processPointer came from
10:02:09 <leroy> pedro: it was developed in a talks about readiness
10:03:31 <leroy> pedro: the list was quite long but was narrowed down over time
10:04:00 <leroy> daveL: processname could be reviewed again
10:04:33 <leroy> fsasaki: there is a lot of work in the provenance area on this
10:04:55 <leroy> fsasaki: important to hook this into this process
10:06:24 <leroy> daveL: hard to define classification but work has been done in CNGL in the contentprocess model
10:07:05 <leroy> query has this content model be  from CNGL been used
10:07:09 <leroy> daveL: no
10:08:31 <leroy> asun: work has been done in provenance standard
10:08:48 <leroy> asun: should be looked at for 2020
10:09:48 <leroy> asun: usage of provenance and workflows is key
10:11:04 <leroy> daveL: we should look into that with you asun.
10:11:27 <leroy> daveL: I will post it on the ITS wiki
10:11:36 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/its/wiki/IssuesAndProposedFeatures
10:11:44 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/its/wiki/IssuesAndProposedFeatures#Proposal:_.22Readiness.22_data_category
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10:14:19 <leroy> going for coffee break
10:16:49 <leroy> rrsagent, draft minutes
10:16:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html leroy
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10:57:56 <fsasaki> topic: ITS ontolog and conversion to NIF
10:57:57 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#conversion-to-nif
10:59:03 <fsasaki> topic: wiki clean up
10:59:03 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/
10:59:55 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Main_Page
11:00:11 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/File:D1.2.2_M24.pdf
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11:01:19 <swalter> present+ swalter
11:01:46 <fsasaki> dave: only sec. 4
11:02:44 <fsasaki> action: nieves to convert http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/File:D1.2.2_M24.pdf to wikitext and put that as main wiki page
11:02:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-588 - Convert http://www.w3.org/international/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/file:d1.2.2_m24.pdf to wikitext and put that as main wiki page [on Nieves Sande - due 2013-12-04].
11:03:26 <fsasaki> .. plus executive summary, part "as follows: ..."
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11:03:38 <Nieves> great!
11:03:44 <fsasaki> :)
11:03:58 <fsasaki> thansk a lot, Nieves, in advance
11:04:06 <fsasaki> topic: ITS IG main page
11:04:08 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/its/wiki/Main_Page
11:05:09 <fsasaki> have call the wednesday's every 3-4 weeks, usual time (2 p.m. CET)
11:05:21 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/its/wiki/Main_Page#Work_items.2C_issues.2C_actions
11:05:49 <fsasaki> include link to readiness
11:06:10 <fsasaki> action: felix to clean up ITS IG wiki main page
11:06:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-589 - Clean up its ig wiki main page [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-12-04].
11:06:48 <fsasaki> topic: ITS ontology
11:07:05 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#conversion-to-nif
11:08:16 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/examples/nif/EX-nif-conversion-output.ttl
11:14:31 <fsasaki> dave: two remaining issues
11:14:39 <fsasaki> .. need to document the ontology
11:15:10 <fsasaki> .. the source definition is in the ITS2 spec, and their are grouped according to functionality
11:15:44 <fsasaki> .. there is a copy of the ITS2 ontology on the NIF site, good place to document the ontology
11:16:03 <fsasaki> .. idea would be to put comments into NIF and generate HTML doc from that
11:16:22 <fsasaki> .. need to agree how we want to add the docu:
11:16:50 <fsasaki> .. have a description for each attribute, e.g. just take definition of taIdentRef in the turtle comment
11:17:20 <fsasaki> .. but also need a line that says: this corresponds to the "taIdentRef" atribute which is part of the "TA" data category in the ITS spec
11:18:57 <fsasaki> .. I can take a copy of the turtle and work with that
11:19:08 <fsasaki> .. and pass it around to comment
11:19:37 <fsasaki> ITS ontology is here: http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/rdf-content/its-rdf.rdf
11:20:25 <fsasaki> dave: then there are issues with NIF conversion: you always need to clear up white space and you loose reference to document
11:21:37 <fsasaki> .. fragment identifier in NIF was another issue, to discuss also in LIDER probably
11:22:08 <fsasaki> .. some work needed to register a mime type etc., which may take quite long
11:22:37 <fsasaki> .. so in ITS IG we just put the comments in turtle file and generate HTML from that
11:23:14 <fsasaki> .. can work on github / NIF on this, once this is stable we can put it back to W3C site
11:24:33 <fsasaki> action: dave to work on ITS ontology documentation in turtle - due 15 december
11:24:33 <trackbot> Error finding 'dave'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/users>.
11:24:41 <fsasaki> action: daveL to work on ITS ontology documentation in turtle - due 15 december
11:24:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-590 - Work on its ontology documentation in turtle [on David Lewis - due 2013-12-15].
11:25:53 <fsasaki> topic: h2020 topics
11:25:56 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/2013/11/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html#item11
11:32:35 <fsasaki> .. but you continue to use "dir" with "rtl" or "ltr"
11:32:35 <fsasaki> richard: html5 and directionality
11:32:40 <fsasaki> olaf-michael: relation between directionality and unicode characters?
11:32:49 <fsasaki> richard: there are new characters in unicode 6.3
11:32:51 <fsasaki> .. "dir" attribute is isolating. the "bdi" attribute will still be avail.
11:32:56 <fsasaki> .. instead of embedding they isolate
11:33:04 <fsasaki> .. and unicode has related recommendations
11:33:17 <fsasaki> .. so these characters now have an equivalence in HTML and CSS
11:33:50 <fsasaki> .. old "rte" and "lte" (= embedding) don't have equivelance any more
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11:34:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
11:35:10 <fsasaki> richard: the default CSS stylesheet will be with isolation as the default
11:35:27 <fsasaki> dave: implications on ITS2?
11:35:37 <fsasaki> .. the HTML world superseeds that
11:35:49 <fsasaki> richard: there was nothing for XML anyway, so no effect
11:36:01 <fsasaki> .. you have to use CSS for XML anyway
11:36:11 <fsasaki> .. the new CSS stuff uses isolation
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11:36:21 <fsasaki> .. the ITS2 spec: it will have to be changed
11:36:29 <fsasaki> .. but not huge
11:36:39 <fsasaki> .. think also about whether you want to include bdi
11:37:04 <fsasaki> dave: so a big impact on ITS?
11:37:10 <fsasaki> richard: some things that need to change
11:37:29 <fsasaki> dave: at the moment there is not a critical mass of new things that we would straight do for ITS
11:38:07 <fsasaki> richard: could also happen in i18n group
11:38:18 <fsasaki> .. ruby extension spec is getting wide approval
11:38:30 <fsasaki> .. have implemnetation committments in webkit and blink
11:38:35 <fsasaki> .. now about ruby:
11:38:39 <fsasaki> s/implemnetation/implementation/
11:40:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
11:40:41 <fsasaki> richard: above is situation for ruby markup
11:40:51 <fsasaki> .. ruby needs CSS support too
11:41:01 <fsasaki> .. that will come in an extended period of time
11:41:16 <fsasaki> .. that is not related to ITS either
11:41:36 <fsasaki> .. so that is a significantly different model from what is in ITS 1.0
11:41:53 <fsasaki> dave: html guys are on top of that
11:42:04 <fsasaki> .. there was no pressing need on the XML side
11:43:21 <fsasaki> felix: just need people / implementers who want to do that
11:44:59 <fsasaki> asun: for h2020 some things that are not incremental are needed
11:45:09 <fsasaki> .. for "real" research not a continuation is needed, but something disruptive
11:45:36 <fsasaki> .. there are many different issues, e.g: how to use linked data for translation / localization
11:45:42 <fsasaki> .. for any kind of language technology
11:45:59 <fsasaki> .. e.g. using linked data in translation memories
11:47:17 <fsasaki> .. focus would be value chain of data
11:49:57 <fsasaki> dave showing picture of open web platform
11:50:36 <fsasaki> dave: can move things from the localiation are more into the browser
11:50:43 <fsasaki> .. this is also kind of bottom up
11:50:56 <fsasaki> .. but: in ITS we have expertise how to annotate content
11:51:09 <fsasaki> .. in LIDER we have experience in work with LOD
11:51:21 <fsasaki> .. how to make the link between metadata and content
11:52:47 <fsasaki> .. including multimedia content
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11:54:23 <fsasaki> .. you propose to add some kind of multilingual part
11:54:24 <fsasaki> asun: there is existing platforms in LOD communtiy
11:55:21 <fsasaki> dave: bring in various content areas in: mobile, epublishing, ...
11:55:46 <fsasaki> .. our expertise in the crossover area
11:55:54 <fsasaki> .. crossover between LOD and content
11:56:27 <fsasaki> asun: at this moment there are some projects that try to enrich content
11:56:41 <fsasaki> .. so this could be seen as yet another project for enriching
11:56:47 <fsasaki> .. what is the added value?
11:57:08 <fsasaki> .. key is: linked data is not already taken into account, in teh translation process
11:58:07 <fsasaki> dave: this idea is kind of incremental
11:58:28 <fsasaki> asun: in h2020 we need a topic that nobody will propose
11:58:40 <fsasaki> pedro: main pain item is quality
11:58:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:02:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:02:46 <fsasaki> adjourn for now
12:02:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/27-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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