22:00:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #indie-ui
22:00:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/20-indie-ui-irc
22:00:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
22:00:33 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #indie-ui
22:00:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be INDIE
22:00:35 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_Indie()5:00PM already started
22:00:36 <trackbot> Meeting: Independent User Interface Task Force Teleconference
22:00:36 <trackbot> Date: 20 November 2013
22:01:28 <janina> Meeting: IndieUI Task Force Teleconference
22:01:28 <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka
22:01:28 <janina> agenda+ preview agenda with items from two minutes
22:01:28 <janina> agenda+ Calendar Review and Updates Through January 2014
22:01:28 <janina> agenda+ TPAC2013 Report & Followup
22:01:31 <janina> agenda+ Editor's Report
22:01:33 <janina> agenda+ Issue-17 (New) https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/issues/17
22:01:36 <janina> agenda+ Events Requirements Status & Actions
22:01:38 <janina> agenda+ Events Testing Update
22:01:41 <janina> agenda+ User Context Update; FPWD Criteria Discussion
22:01:43 <janina> agenda+ User Context Issues & Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/products/3
22:01:44 <Zakim> +??P4
22:01:46 <janina> agenda+ Events Issues & Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/products/2
22:01:49 <janina> agenda+ Scribe for our Next Teleconference (on 4 December at 22:00Z)
22:01:52 <janina> agenda+ Be Done
22:04:36 <Zakim> +??P5
22:04:49 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
22:04:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #indie-ui
22:04:58 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P2 is Janina_Sajka
22:04:58 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
22:04:59 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P3 is Jason_White
22:04:59 <Zakim> +Jason_White; got it
22:05:16 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P4 is Andy_Heath
22:05:16 <Zakim> +Andy_Heath; got it
22:06:12 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #indie-ui
22:06:53 <Zakim> +[Apple]
22:07:02 <jcraig> Zakim, Apple has jcraig
22:07:02 <Zakim> +jcraig; got it
22:08:50 <janina>  scribe: jason
22:08:58 <MichaelC> scribe: jasonjgw
22:09:00 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
22:09:00 <Zakim> agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina]
22:10:38 <jasonjgw> Andy: has written an abstract for his indie-ui presentation in March. He offers to circulate it to interested participants in the working group.
22:11:04 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #indie-ui
22:12:26 <Ryladog> AH: I would like Madeleine Rothberg to talk about user N&P that have changed in A11Y Metadata
22:12:40 <Ryladog> Rich: That is a good idea
22:12:43 <jasonjgw> Andy suggests inviting Madeleine Rothberg to a teleconference to discuss use cases from Access for All 3 and those which have changed in the schema.org metadata initiative.
22:13:04 <Ryladog> Rich: Did you walk through the new metadata
22:13:11 <Ryladog> JS: Yes
22:13:27 <Ryladog> AH: It is around the AccessMode controls
22:14:04 <jasonjgw> Andy notes the issues associated with access mode, and how these relate to priorities for User Contexts (including the question of what should be introduced in version 1.0).
22:14:21 <Ryladog> JS: I am happy to extend the invitation but it will be complicated during the holidays - is there a time crunch to do that this year?
22:14:49 <jasonjgw> Janina notes the need to balance this effort with other work, namely Events, and that this discussion may be profitably deferred to next year given that there are only two meetings remaining this year.
22:15:05 <Ryladog> Rich: This does not impact the Events spec, unless we are going to have some movement with that spec this year
22:15:32 <jasonjgw> Rich concurs with these priorities.
22:15:59 <Ryladog> Rich: User context is going to need to be where the metadata is used
22:16:20 <Ryladog> MC: I thought we were going to get the Requirements out BEFORE anything else
22:16:28 <Ryladog> JS: Yes
22:16:32 <jasonjgw> Michael notes that if we are to publish a Last Call for Events early next year, we need a first public working draft of Requirements now.
22:16:57 <jasonjgw> Andy notes that the emphasis on events in the short term fits well with his needs regarding User Context work.
22:19:16 <Ryladog> JS: I wouldn't limit it to just mobile, including is better
22:19:44 <jasonjgw> There is discussion of Andy's abstract, with minor adjustments recommended.
22:20:06 <Ryladog> AH; If it turns into a paper I would welcome help
22:20:16 <janina> q?
22:20:29 <Ryladog> AH: Are we including native applications?
22:20:41 <Ryladog> JW: I wouldn't see how we can get this in now
22:21:53 <jasonjgw> Andy will submit in several days, taking into account any comments received.
22:22:49 <jasonjgw> Any further comments may be sent to Andy (preferably soon).
22:24:37 <Ryladog> zakim, next item
22:24:37 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Calendar Review and Updates Through January 2014" taken up [from janina]
22:24:51 <jasonjgw> He will provide the URI once the final abstract appears on the conference Web site.
22:25:03 <jasonjgw> zakim, next item
22:25:03 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, jasonjgw
22:25:03 <janina> zakim, next item
22:25:04 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, janina
22:25:44 <Ryladog> JS: Two weeks from today so Dec 4th and the 18th and then we break for 3 weeks and resume the 8th of January
22:26:00 <jasonjgw> Next two meetings: 4 December, then 18 December followed by 8 January.
22:26:31 <Ryladog> JW: I may miss it because of my flight
22:26:45 <MichaelC> scribe: Ryladog
22:27:31 <Ryladog> zakim, next item
22:27:31 <Zakim> agendum 3. "TPAC2013 Report & Followup" taken up [from janina]
22:28:02 <Ryladog> JC: I have the Mon, Tues and Wed off and will work on it then
22:28:11 <Ryladog> JS: Anticipated Last Call date?
22:28:33 <MichaelC> q+
22:28:34 <Ryladog> JC: for Events
22:28:51 <Ryladog> JS: We not be that far from ready for Events after Requirements
22:29:21 <Ryladog> JC: I have a backlog that I went to get in to the Events spec before ewe publish last call
22:29:32 <jasonjgw> q+
22:29:45 <MichaelC> q+ to ask about getting in all the edits related to requirements
22:29:48 <MichaelC> q+ to ask about testing
22:30:17 <Ryladog> JC: Lets plan to have another Public Working Draft in the early spring (maybe January) as long as it does not conflict ARIA
22:31:16 <Ryladog> MC: It seems when we were going through the Reqs at TPAC - do you think we will be able to get all of those items into the Events spec?
22:32:03 <MichaelC> ack me
22:32:03 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask about getting in all the edits related to requirements and to ask about testing
22:32:06 <Ryladog> JC: Will send the minutees/notes of the Req discussion. We have to get to testing before we go to last call? What is the plan and do we have time
22:32:38 <Ryladog> JC: I think it can all be tested via scripts - that is the good thing about the API
22:33:04 <Ryladog> MC: We till have to create test cases
22:33:32 <Ryladog> JC: So the last call target would become maybe March?
22:33:40 <Ryladog> JS: At least I think
22:34:09 <Ryladog> JC: I think testing will go sort of smoothly
22:34:35 <Ryladog> RS: Chrome and Safari are still considered to be the same browser
22:34:40 <Ryladog> JC: Not any more
22:34:57 <Ryladog> RS: Is that true Janina?
22:35:32 <Ryladog> JS: The two weblits may be too close to be considered differrent enough
22:36:09 <Ryladog> RS: I just want to make sure that is the case for sure so that we do not get caught with being incorrect about this
22:37:00 <Ryladog> JC: I think in that case it may have be too close, but, with Indie-UI it should be clearer unless they copy the branch.
22:37:38 <Ryladog> RS: Do we know if someone from the Google team is really going to implement this. Have we talked to Dominic? Do we want tp send him an email
22:38:02 <Ryladog> JC: Maybe in January we can do a call for Implementations at that point when we have the last call
22:38:25 <Ryladog> JC: If we send that now we my be confusing folks and I have stuff I want to get it
22:38:35 <Ryladog> JS: Might be best to wait for the new year
22:39:59 <Ryladog> JW: Suggestion of architectural review - what will the next step be - or do any to encourage specific feedback
22:40:22 <Ryladog> JC: If you think that is useful to have before we publish the next wrking draft?
22:40:58 <Ryladog> JS: Do we need to take this to TAG or is the Working Group enough? We do not want to go over there heads
22:41:23 <jcraig> Action: jcraig to ask WebApps about the DOMTokenList and reflected attributes uiactions/@ui-actions; Ted mentioned there was some pushback against DOMTokenList.
22:41:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-75 - Ask webapps about the domtokenlist and reflected attributes uiactions/@ui-actions; ted mentioned there was some pushback against domtokenlist. [on James Craig - due 2013-11-27].
22:41:45 <jcraig> action-75?
22:41:45 <trackbot> action-75 -- James Craig to Ask webapps about the domtokenlist and reflected attributes uiactions/@ui-actions; ted mentioned there was some pushback against domtokenlist. -- due 2013-11-27 -- OPEN
22:41:45 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/actions/75
22:42:20 <jcraig> action-75?
22:42:21 <trackbot> action-75 -- James Craig to Ask WebApps about the DOMTokenList and reflected attributes uiactions/@ui-actions; Ted mentioned there was some pushback against DOMTokenList. -- due 2013-11-27 -- OPEN
22:42:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/actions/75
22:42:38 <Ryladog> zakim, next item
22:42:38 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Ryladog
22:42:47 <jcraig> q?
22:42:47 <MichaelC> zakim, close item 4
22:42:48 <Zakim> agendum 4, Editor's Report, closed
22:42:48 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:42:48 <Zakim> 3. TPAC2013 Report & Followup [from janina]
22:43:00 <MichaelC> ack j
22:43:30 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
22:43:30 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Issue-17 (New) https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/issues/17" taken up [from janina]
22:44:02 <Ryladog> JS: this came up in the ARIA call on Monday
22:44:18 <jcraig> "Require an event notification and indicator that an element can respond to a bubble help request"
22:44:42 <jcraig> q+ to ask if "bubble help" means "contextual menu"?
22:44:45 <jasonjgw> q+
22:44:47 <MichaelC> q+ to ask if this is IndieUI or WebApps?
22:44:56 <Ryladog> JS: We were talking about ARIA has pop-up - we were talking about how that mist be discover-able. T
22:45:26 <Ryladog> RS: The tool tip and ARIA described-by
22:45:26 <jcraig> ack me
22:45:26 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to ask if "bubble help" means "contextual menu"?
22:45:48 <Ryladog> JC: What kind of help
22:46:21 <Ryladog> RS: It is more information about the object - related contextual - like lore information
22:47:05 <MichaelC> q+ to ask if this relates to ISSUE-3
22:47:24 <Ryladog> RS: there is the discoverability and the fact that something is actionable
22:48:10 <Ryladog> JC: If you hover over a movie and waiting a few seconds - like in Netflics
22:48:41 <Ryladog> JC: Is this bubble help - a dialog is more interactive
22:48:46 <janina> q?
22:48:57 <MichaelC> ack j
22:49:00 <janina> ack j
22:49:46 <MichaelC> ack me
22:49:46 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask if this is IndieUI or WebApps? and to ask if this relates to ISSUE-3
22:49:58 <Ryladog> JW: Distinct from a secondary action on an object - a kind of help request confined to the object that the event applies to
22:50:13 <jcraig> q+ to say showing a contextual menu (secondary action) and displaying a tooltip are different things. If we have an event, we need to clearly define the difference.
22:50:15 <MichaelC> ¨Provide a mechanism to access context menus and perhaps other secondary actions (might be future requirement). (issue-3)¨
22:50:15 <Ryladog> JW: Do we want it tp be seperate?
22:50:46 <Ryladog> MC: This sounds a lot like secondary actions which we discussed at F2F and goes woth Issue 3
22:50:51 <jcraig> ack me
22:50:51 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say showing a contextual menu (secondary action) and displaying a tooltip are different things. If we have an event, we need to clearly define the difference.
22:51:09 <Ryladog> JC: All three of us ask the same question at the same time
22:52:15 <Ryladog> JC: Bubble help I believe is a tooltip - that is not interactive than it functionally behaves as a tooltip, if it is interactive it is more like a dialog
22:52:28 <Ryladog> MC: Issue 3 applies here
22:52:40 <Ryladog> JS: Yes, that does sound like it applies
22:52:49 <janina> q?
22:53:43 <Ryladog> JC: It sound like there are two issues - both the secondary action that is covered in issue 3 - but then also like a show tooltip
22:53:49 <janina> q?
22:53:55 <jasonjgw> q+
22:54:20 <jcraig> ack j
22:54:59 <Ryladog> JW: if it is interactive - it looks like a secondary action. If it is not interactive then you want an event to play it
22:55:40 <Ryladog> JW: They both seem to be secondary interactions - so it looks like Issue 3 covers both - maybe we need to amend the Issue
22:56:39 <Ryladog> JC: It almost seems like is there ever going to be a case where we have primary, secondary and tooltip together. We want to build a strategy around this
22:57:18 <Ryladog> RS: For AT we want to have an API mapping - something like this - I am trying to figure out if we need a mapping ststement
22:57:40 <Ryladog> JC: Are you saying you want a platform specific action
22:57:50 <jasonjgw> q+
22:57:50 <Ryladog> JS: Why only AT?
22:57:58 <MichaelC> q+ to ask about Webapps
22:58:03 <Ryladog> RS: Well it is not necessarily
22:58:06 <jcraig> q+ to say that's an implementation detail for AT
22:58:34 <Ryladog> JS: lets not forget the longdesc or described-at - but it is never autodispalyed
22:59:02 <Ryladog> RS: But we do not want to tell the browser manufacturers how to do that
22:59:12 <Ryladog> JS; It could be very simpke
22:59:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
22:59:28 <Ryladog> RS: Thee UA would abnlde all the device interaction
22:59:40 <Ryladog> JS: Tiemline question
22:59:44 <Ryladog> zakim, next item
22:59:44 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Ryladog
22:59:55 <janina> q?
23:00:05 <jcraig> ack j
23:00:05 <MichaelC> ack j
23:00:05 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say that's an implementation detail for AT
23:00:09 <janina> ack ja
23:00:12 <jcraig> q+
23:00:16 <Ryladog> JS: How can the team help you Micheal to get the Requirements out?
23:00:52 <Ryladog> JW: API for registering secondary actions the UA would have to signal it appropriately for each OS
23:01:06 <MichaelC> ack me
23:01:06 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask about Webapps
23:01:07 <Ryladog> JS: I do not think we need to solve eveything about this today
23:01:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
23:02:20 <MichaelC> ack
23:02:21 <MichaelC> ack j
23:02:22 <Ryladog> MC: I am not fully sure I understand whether this is a broader scope that for IndieUI?
23:02:45 <Ryladog> JC: Discover-ability issue is out of scope
23:03:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
23:03:15 <Ryladog> JC: As long as there is an API fr each of these things as then it is up to the AT and UA
23:03:19 <MichaelC> ack r
23:03:32 <Ryladog> RS: You addressed that at the F2F with the memdiaQueries
23:03:53 <Ryladog> RS: I just need a note that says 'hey this fuction is here'
23:04:12 <Ryladog> JC: I think that is covered by notification events
23:04:21 <Ryladog> RS: Would that work for AT?
23:05:04 <jcraig> s/notification events/preference changed events/
23:05:10 <Ryladog> JC: I think that will come out of the examples. We might be confusing the vocablary
23:05:35 <jcraig> Notes that "Web Notifications" are something else entirely
23:05:53 <Ryladog> MC: What need to be done is just get the Reqs into a W3 doc - but we did not match the Req to Use Cases - it is a task that needs to be done
23:06:38 <Ryladog> JC: Let us try to begin to end at 10 of in the future
23:07:21 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
23:07:27 <Zakim> -[Apple]
23:07:37 <Ryladog> rrsagent, make minutes
23:07:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/20-indie-ui-minutes.html Ryladog
23:07:45 <Zakim> -Andy_Heath
23:07:46 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
23:07:46 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
23:07:53 <Zakim> -Jason_White
23:11:21 <Ryladog> s/lore/more/
23:12:47 <Ryladog> s/AH;/AH:/
23:12:54 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Katie_Haritos-Shea, in WAI_Indie()5:00PM
23:12:56 <Zakim> WAI_Indie()5:00PM has ended
23:12:56 <Zakim> Attendees were Katie_Haritos-Shea, Michael_Cooper, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina_Sajka, Jason_White, Andy_Heath, jcraig
23:13:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has left #indie-ui
23:15:13 <Ryladog> s/tp/to/
23:15:37 <Ryladog> rrsagent, make minutes
23:15:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/20-indie-ui-minutes.html Ryladog
23:19:32 <Ryladog> s/We till/We'll/
23:20:15 <Ryladog> s/sound/sounds/
23:20:57 <Ryladog> s/wrking/working/
23:21:16 <Ryladog> s/Thee/The/
23:21:54 <Ryladog> s/vocablary/vocabulary/
23:22:43 <Ryladog> s/abnlde/enable/
23:23:11 <Ryladog> s/woth/with/
23:23:19 <Ryladog> rrsagent, make minutes
23:23:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/20-indie-ui-minutes.html Ryladog
23:25:34 <Ryladog> present:Katie_Haritos-Shea, Michael_Cooper, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina_Sajka, Jason_White, Andy_Heath, James Craig
23:25:47 <Ryladog> rrsagent, make minutes
23:25:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/20-indie-ui-minutes.html Ryladog
23:26:45 <Ryladog> Present: Katie_Haritos-Shea, Michael_Cooper, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina_Sajka, Jason_White, Andy_Heath, James Craig
23:26:57 <Ryladog> rrsagent, make minutes
23:26:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/20-indie-ui-minutes.html Ryladog
23:28:48 <Ryladog> Present+ Katie_Haritos-Shea
23:29:02 <Ryladog> Present+  Michael_Cooper
23:29:09 <Ryladog> rrsagent, make minutes
23:29:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/20-indie-ui-minutes.html Ryladog
23:30:17 <Ryladog> Present: Katie_Haritos-Shea Michael_Cooper Rich_Schwerdtfeger Janina_Sajka Jason_White Andy_Heath James Craig
23:30:25 <Ryladog> rrsagent, make minutes
23:30:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/20-indie-ui-minutes.html Ryladog