00:44:19 RRSAgent has joined #sysapps 00:44:19 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-sysapps-irc 00:44:42 zakim, this will be 7972 00:44:42 ok, dsr; I see UW_SYSAPPS()8:00PM scheduled to start in 16 minutes 00:47:46 meeting: SysApps Face to Face - Shenzhen 00:48:02 chair: Wonsuk Lee 00:48:12 Kaz_ has joined #sysapps 00:48:23 agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/System_Applications:_3rd_F2F_Meeting_Agenda_TPAC#Agenda 00:49:32 kaz has joined #sysapps 00:52:37 tomoyuki has joined #sysapps 00:55:21 Kaz_ has left #sysapps 00:57:24 kkubota2 has joined #sysapps 00:58:35 UW_SYSAPPS()8:00PM has now started 00:58:42 +[IPcaller] 01:03:29 yuka_o has joined #sysapps 01:05:35 nkic has joined #sysapps 01:06:30 gmandyam has joined #sysapps 01:07:02 kaz has joined #sysapps 01:12:09 kotakagi has joined #sysapps 01:16:43 zakim, call Wutong_West 01:16:43 I am sorry, dsr; I do not know a number for Wutong_West 01:17:09 nsakai2___ has joined #sysapps 01:17:48 dsuwirya has joined #sysapps 01:18:02 zakim, call wuzhou-west 01:18:02 I am sorry, dsr; I do not know a number for wuzhou-west 01:18:25 zakim, call wuzhou_west 01:18:25 ok, dsr; the call is being made 01:18:27 +Wuzhou_west 01:19:18 tomoyuki has left #sysapps 01:19:56 richt has joined #sysapps 01:20:09 Present+ Dave_Raggett 01:20:38 richt_ has joined #sysapps 01:20:45 wonsuk has joined #sysapps 01:21:17 MichaelH has joined #sysapps 01:22:10 virginie has joined #sysapps 01:22:26 dsr has changed the topic to: SysApps +1.617.761.6200, conference code 7972 01:22:34 mounir_ has joined #sysapps 01:22:44 jinsong has joined #sysapps 01:22:45 Present+ Laszlo_Gombos 01:22:52 -[IPcaller] 01:23:09 +[IPcaller] 01:23:09 gaowenmei has joined #sysapps 01:23:12 richt__ has joined #sysapps 01:23:13 Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen 01:23:30 Present+ Rich_Tibbett 01:24:44 01:25:28 Present+ Giri_Mandyam 01:25:35 Present+ Natasha_Rooney 01:25:55 Present+ Wonsuk_Lee 01:26:29 Present+ Mounir_Lamouri 01:27:16 hmin_ has joined #sysapps 01:27:43 hmin_ has joined #sysapps 01:27:54 manu has joined #sysapps 01:27:59 Topic: Agenda Bashing 01:28:15 tomoyuki has joined #sysapps 01:28:26 +Present Tomoyuki_Shimizu 01:28:49 anssik: Switch ServiceWorker topics the other way around? 01:28:52 Present: Kaz_Ashimura(observer) 01:29:05 -[IPcaller] 01:29:37 wonsuk: Need to discuss this with Alex. Has a TAG meeting this morning. 01:29:48 genelian has joined #sysapps 01:29:59 Present+ Manu_Sporny 01:30:47 wonsuk: Anssi, you could introduce ServiceWorker before App Lifecycle and Events and we'll go from there. 01:30:53 Present+ Jinsong_Wang 01:30:56 wonsuk: We need to discuss some issues with Alex but later on. 01:30:59 Present+ Virginie_Galindo 01:31:20 Ruinan has joined #sysapps 01:31:45 Present+ Gene_Lian 01:32:03 Present+ Michael_Hutchinson 01:32:49 wonsuk: Any comments on other agenda items? 01:34:08 q+ to ask if we can introduce a brief 5 minute discussion about coordination w/ Web Payments group. 01:34:17 Present+ Thinker_Lee 01:34:21 q? 01:34:24 q? 01:34:33 JINGWANG-QI_ has joined #sysapps 01:34:35 ack manu 01:34:35 manu, you wanted to ask if we can introduce a brief 5 minute discussion about coordination w/ Web Payments group. 01:34:52 Anders has joined #sysapps 01:35:03 JonathanJ1 has joined #sysapps 01:35:28 manu: Want to ensure there is a good amount of collaboration between Web Payments and this group. Can we add that to the agenda? 01:35:33 +1 to add Manu's proposed topic to the agenda 01:35:43 wonsuk: Yes. Let's add that before the SE discussion? 01:35:47 Dong-Young_Lee has joined #SysApps 01:35:55 +??P2 01:36:13 q? 01:36:16 ? 01:36:20 q? 01:36:30 q+ richt to demonstrate the queue 01:36:31 hsinyi has joined #sysapps 01:36:32 q- 01:36:38 q? 01:36:44 ack richt 01:36:44 richt, you wanted to demonstrate the queue 01:37:02 Topic: ServiceWorker 01:37:26 Present+Jonathan_Jeon 01:38:03 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sysapps/2013Nov/0036.html 01:38:16 01:38:50 sunghan has joined #sysapps 01:39:09 -??P2 01:40:21 zakim, who is here? 01:40:21 On the phone I see Wuzhou_west 01:40:22 On IRC I see sunghan, hsinyi, Dong-Young_Lee, JonathanJ1, Anders, JINGWANG-QI_, Ruinan, genelian, tomoyuki, manu, hmin_, richt__, gaowenmei, jinsong, mounir_, virginie, MichaelH, 01:40:22 ... wonsuk, dsuwirya, nsakai2___, kotakagi, kaz, gmandyam, nkic 01:40:26 dom has joined #sysapps 01:40:44 jungkees_ has joined #sysapps 01:40:54 Present+ Jungkee_Song 01:42:54 https://gist.github.com/slightlyoff/7fae65a908ac318f69a3 01:43:16 JonathanJ has joined #sysapps 01:44:16 ito has joined #sysapps 01:45:10 ito has left #sysapps 01:45:31 kenneth_ has joined #sysapps 01:46:28 gmandyam has joined #sysapps 01:46:35 +q 01:46:36 q? 01:47:10 richt: Any idea where this ServiceWorkers work will take place in W3C? 01:47:13 ito has joined #sysapps 01:47:26 zqzhang_ has joined #sysapps 01:47:43 anssik: We don't know yet and we need to coordinate with Alex on that. 01:47:50 anssik: There's not really a spec yet. 01:48:03 anssik: Seems like a good fit for WebApps? HTML? 01:48:05 jeff has joined #sysapps 01:48:16 anssik: Extensions could be specified elsewhere e.g. this group. 01:48:35 razybon_ has joined #SysApps 01:48:38 q? 01:48:39 wonsuk: It's in scope for the WebApps WG. 01:48:45 ack gmandyam 01:49:00 gmandyam: Is ServiceWorkers applicable to device APIs as well? 01:49:09 anssik: I think it's a good fit for many device-related events. 01:49:37 anssik: Could be good for e.g. alarms. 01:49:57 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 01:50:01 kenneth_: It's on a case-by-case basis. 01:50:16 kenneth_: Should look in to what Google did for Apps. 01:50:22 saki has joined #sysapps 01:50:44 gmandyam: In terms of Device APIs what can ServiceWorker provide that WebWorkers cannot provide today? 01:51:06 anssik: Key thing is that ServiceWorkers can stay alive even if associated window is closed. 01:51:15 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 01:51:24 anssik: We should ask Alex for full details on that. 01:51:40 gmandyam: So it's a persistent background worker? 01:52:12 q? 01:52:12 anssik: Yes. e.g. Gmail client. Close the tab. You can be notified and brought back to Gmail. 01:52:38 anssik: Not the same but have additional capabilities 01:52:50 kenneth_: Events can restart the worker. 01:53:37 q+ 01:54:24 q? 01:54:43 anssik: This is behind a feature flag in Chromium. Nothing production quality at this point but you can check it out. 01:54:54 anssik: Also experimental implementation happening in FF. 01:55:10 chrome://flags/#enable-service-worker 01:55:43 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 01:56:11 anssik: Building on experimental foundations. Share richt's concern here. 01:56:34 anssik: But there is also some momentum and relatively confident this will end up shipping in all major browsers. 01:57:20 Zakim, who is on the bridge 01:57:20 I don't understand 'who is on the bridge', wonsuk 01:57:21 gmandyam: When we implemented Persistent Workers we ended up putting up a UI so the user could see what was active, close things down, etc... 01:57:39 gmandyam: ...Are you seeing any special types of permissions needed relating to ServiceWorkers. 01:57:47 zakim, who is here? 01:57:47 On the phone I see Wuzhou_west 01:57:49 On IRC I see Toshiya, saki, razybon_, jeff, zqzhang_, ito, gmandyam, kenneth_, jungkees_, dom, sunghan, hsinyi, Dong-Young_Lee, Anders, Ruinan, genelian, tomoyuki, manu, hmin_, 01:57:49 ... richt__, gaowenmei, jinsong, mounir_, virginie, MichaelH, wonsuk 01:58:14 re ServiceWorker impl status: http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=285976 01:58:39 anssik: Good questions gmandyam. That's something that needs to be fixed on the platform. 01:59:28 anssik: Permissioning is broken on the web and now we are opening up more powerful capable APIs. In the context of SysApps this permissioning model is yet to be decided. 02:00:37 q? 02:01:01 JonathanJ has joined #sysapps 02:02:01 mounir_: We should not try to define APIs on when and how the permission will be set. e.g. FFOS - no permission up-front. If you mandate that type of model then they cannot implement it. 02:02:05 Hi SysApps, i'm in WebApps now doing agenda bashing and i mentioned SysApps invites Alex this afternoon to get introduction about ServerWorker 02:02:25 One way to make installable apps is reusing the service worker infra. Like on a webpage you could click on an install link which would basically make the service worker cache the whole app. Now that could be done with upfront permission granding, that would reask when an update requires further permissions 02:02:34 anssik: So you're saying we should be agnostic on how and when permissioning works? 02:02:35 And WebApps is sort of interested in talking about ServiceWorker together if time permits 02:03:13 mounir_: Yes. The details will need to be thought out a bit more. Dev feedback - devs want to know when permission prompting is going to happen. 02:03:17 15:00 - 15:30 seems to be the prospective time slot WebApps can use 02:03:43 mounir_: Maybe the API should be generic. Agnostic to user permission model. 02:05:25 q? 02:05:32 anssik: there's been some pushback on e.g. the Web Notifications permission opt-in model. 02:05:52 ack gmandyam 02:06:29 gmandyam: You have X number of processes taking up resources in the background. An up-front permission model or permissions API is probably not going to work for that. 02:07:27 [XX]: sometimes you would like to disable certain permissions when you 'install'. Is that in scope here. 02:08:03 anssik: I think it's an important point. If something is not available it would be good if we could gracefully degrade. 02:08:16 anssik: Would like to see that built in to the platform. 02:08:49 mounir_: If all APIs do not have permission up-front or whether they are all approved up-front should be an implementation detail. 02:09:19 mounir_: If you want to give an option for the user to revoke access at a later point then the API should be ready for that / designed to handle that e.g. revocation. 02:09:29 anssik: I agree. 02:09:39 q? 02:09:59 JonathanJ has joined #sysapps 02:10:00 s/[XX]/Anders/ 02:10:25 Topic: Application Lifecycle and Events 02:10:28 http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/app-lifecycle/ 02:10:29 Clarification: If there are webpages (X1, X2, ...} with associated number of service workers {Y1, Y2, ...}, then the number of service workers running could be Y1 * Y2 * ... The user may need to actively manage (i.e. shut down specific workers) when running on an e.g. FF OS device. 02:11:18 plh has joined #sysapps 02:11:26 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sysapps/2013Nov/0014.html 02:12:54 wuwei has joined #sysapps 02:13:02 anssik: The major change is that we use ServiceWorker as the base. 02:13:19 anssik: There's also hooks in to the Task Scheduler proposal. 02:14:28 anssik: We would like a normative dependency to ServiceWorker. Need to talk to Alex about that. 02:14:52 anssik: currently 4 open issues. 02:15:07 anssik: 1. Remove features without strong use cases. 02:15:45 Open issues on App Lifecycle and Events available in email link above 02:15:47 hmin has joined #sysapps 02:15:51 Mohammed has joined #sysapps 02:15:57 anssik: Would be good to have some discussion now on Lifecycle Events. 02:16:39 anssik: Do we have consensus on the lifecycle events we want to expose? 02:16:42 q? 02:17:02 mounir_: still believe we can get rid of anything non-essential here. 02:17:29 anssik: So what do people want to see the lifecycle events look like? 02:17:58 q+ 02:18:15 mounir_: Probably implementor specific. Probably good to see what people do and standardize from there. 02:18:38 jeff_ has joined #sysapps 02:18:41 TatsuyaIgarashi has joined #sysapps 02:18:46 anssik: In ServiceWorker you have 'on install time' events. 02:19:17 anssik: When it's upgraded other events are provided. So only after install and after upgrade events in ServiceWorkers. 02:19:22 mounir_: Agree with that approach. 02:20:15 kenneth_: Another idea, if you don't get the permission up-front then you could get it when it wakes up? 02:20:33 anssik: Interesting. e.g. Web Notifications are not time-sensitive. We could allow some delay in that permission opt-in. 02:20:47 anssik: So it could try again at a later time perhaps. 02:21:03 mobilewebfourm has joined #sysapps 02:21:09 anssik: Agree with mounir_. Let's see what gets implemented and then tighten up from there. 02:21:39 q? 02:22:08 anssik: Another issue, the ServiceWorker could be killed at any time. Should we let the app know that is happening? 02:22:19 q+ to ask for UC for terminate event 02:22:27 ack gmandyam 02:22:31 ack gmandyam 02:23:08 gmandyam: if termination is resulting from an end-user action then it may not be desirable to allow it to persist until permission is obtained to kill it. 02:23:32 gmandyam: There are likely valid reasons for end users to kill e.g. ServiceWorkers. 02:23:34 chrome://inspect/ 02:23:42 anssik: There are a number of tools available in e.g. Chromium. 02:24:10 gmandyam: There's a difference between a browser and an app installed in an OS. 02:25:15 wonsuk1 has joined #sysapps 02:26:38 anssik: There was some work around Web Activities/Intents but not sure what's happening there. 02:26:55 ack 02:26:58 ack mounir_ 02:26:58 mounir_, you wanted to ask for UC for terminate event 02:27:32 mounir_: One of the main issues with App Lifecycle and Events would seem to be on cleaning up 02:27:43 Summary: The current def.'n for App LifeCycle events seems to sandbox the Service Worker to only rcv. events related to the app that created it. I asked Anssi if the intention is that this model could be extended to listen to other app's lifecycle events. He said no - this would have to be handled through inter-app messaging. 02:27:55 mounir_: Sometimes the app could die before the system tells it it is dead. 02:28:10 mounir_: therefore it may not be a good idea to add such clean up events. 02:28:20 anssik: I agree with mounir_. 02:28:28 Tomoyuki has joined #sysapps 02:28:43 +1 for Mounir 02:28:57 mounir_ sometimes apps will not have enough time to save things between the terminate event and the app being actually killed 02:29:24 seo has joined #sysapps 02:31:28 anssik: Let's simplify and have a single event called 'launch' or something. 02:31:58 Dong-Young_Lee_ has joined #sysapps 02:33:15 plh3 has joined #sysapps 02:33:41 seo_ has joined #sysapps 02:33:48 anssik: Next issue, looking for a mechanism to pass data from the application that launch it. 02:34:07 anssik: WeB Intents/Activities was promising for this. 02:34:14 mounir_: Web Intents stopped due to UI issues. 02:34:42 mounir_: Web activities and web intents were for different devices. They were designed with different UIs in mind. 02:35:00 mounir_: unclear whether e.g. Web Activities works well on Desktop. 02:35:29 mounir_: Google closed Web Intents because the UI was not working well there (on Desktop). 02:36:20 mounir_: assuming we have web intents/activities at some point. The hook would be on the launch event. Data can be passed on events. 02:36:36 mounir_: this is probably not a big issue for the work we're doing here. 02:36:38 wonsuk1 has joined #sysapps 02:37:01 saki has left #sysapps 02:37:29 mounir_: the hook would be on the launch event or on a specific event but anyway, the data will very likely end up in the event object 02:37:59 anssik: issue 4 in my email (linked above) will likely be resolved at the ServiceWorkers level. 02:38:13 anssik: Let's summarize the open issues now. 02:38:27 anssik: issue 1: drop terminate/cancelled events. 02:38:34 anssik: issue 2: get rid of reasons. 02:39:03 saki has joined #sysapps 02:39:43 q? 02:39:43 anssik: issue 3: let's create LaunchEvent and later we can pass data to that implicitly. 02:39:53 anssik: let's close issue 3 down. 02:39:58 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 02:40:15 anssik: issue 4: defer to ServiceWorker spec. 02:40:35 Topic: App Lifecycle and Events - Next steps 02:40:51 mounir_: let's take a break? 02:41:13 02:41:32 Toshiya_ has joined #sysapps 02:41:45 richt has joined #sysapps 02:46:22 kotakagi has joined #sysapps 02:51:04 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 03:07:35 yuka_o has joined #sysapps 03:09:38 yuka_o_ has joined #sysapps 03:11:57 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 03:17:41 kenneth_ has joined #sysapps 03:18:29 -Wuzhou_west 03:18:29 yuka_o_ has left #sysapps 03:18:31 UW_SYSAPPS()8:00PM has ended 03:18:31 Attendees were [IPcaller], Wuzhou_west 03:20:09 nkic has joined #sysapps 03:20:14 scribenick: dsr 03:20:40 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 03:21:12 Mounir: we will move as a group to Shenzhen Hall at 3pm for a short discussion with webapps on service workers. 03:21:13 ito has joined #sysapps 03:21:36 Topic: Next steps for App Life Cycle 03:21:44 yuka_o has joined #sysapps 03:22:22 saki has joined #sysapps 03:22:47 Next steps: 03:22:48 - Continue track ServiceWorker, align Application Events with the model 03:22:48 - Flesh out System Event delivery and registration (and/or defer to the ServiceWorker proper?) 03:22:54 e.services = ["fetch"]; 03:23:02 mounir_ has joined #sysapps 03:23:57 Dong-Young_Lee has joined #sysapps 03:24:00 Anssi: may want to do registration in the manifest 03:24:15 Toshiya_ has joined #sysapps 03:24:21 - Permission control, need a consistent model that works for ServiceWorkers 03:24:43 saki_ has joined #sysapps 03:24:44 q+ 03:25:19 Following discussion before the break, we may want to give implementations some freedom in his permission requests are handled (when apps are installed, or later at time of use) 03:25:33 kotakagi has joined #sysapps 03:26:38 Wonsuk: we tried to set a joint meeting with WebApps about manifest, but it was cancelled. 03:27:43 ... some discussion via email, e.g. on use of meta tag, but no consensus as yet. 03:28:27 q? 03:28:31 kkubota2 has joined #sysapps 03:28:38 rrsagent, draft minutes 03:28:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ 03:28:42 ack kaz 03:28:43 Anssi: we continue with the App Life Cycle, simplifying it and aligning it with the Service Worker spec as that evolves. 03:29:20 Kaz: interested in possible relationship to W3C work on multimodal interaction architecture model 03:29:29 jungkees has joined #sysapps 03:29:38 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/mmi-arch/ MMI Architecture 03:29:45 ... I've invited Anssi to join the MMI meeting this week. 03:29:47 Present+ Jungkee_Song 03:30:04 saki has joined #sysapps 03:30:04 -> https://www.w3.org/2002/mmi/Group/wiki/TPAC2013 mmi f2f schedule 03:30:06 Anssi: Kaz can you please introduce the MMI WG? 03:30:08 richt has joined #sysapps 03:30:21 gaowenmei has joined #sysapps 03:30:27 richt has joined #sysapps 03:30:50 Ruinan has joined #sysapps 03:31:10 Kaz: MMI Architecture is actually quite simple and defines life cycle events for loosely coupled multimodal applications 03:31:24 Anssi: what are the main use cases for that? 03:32:03 UW_SYSAPPS()8:00PM has now started 03:32:04 +Wuzhou_west 03:32:11 Soonho has joined #sysapps 03:32:40 saki_ has joined #sysapps 03:33:32 kinuko has joined #sysapps 03:33:40 Kaz presents the MMI architecture spec http://www.w3.org/TR/mmi-arch/ 03:34:01 q? 03:34:23 The MMI WG will hold an introductory session on the MMI Arch this Thursday morning and you are all welcome if you're interested. 03:35:14 zqzhang_ has joined #sysapps 03:36:14 Mounir: does anyone have questions on service workers and relation to SysApps at this time? 03:36:38 mw2 has joined #sysapps 03:37:16 Anssi: asks Rich about Opera's interest in this topic 03:38:03 Tomoyuki2 has joined #sysapps 03:38:23 wuwei has joined #sysapps 03:38:26 Rich: we've moved the opera browser over to Chromium, and want to add some opera specific APIs on top of Chrome. 03:38:52 ... We've looked at extending the Chrome CRX extension APIs 03:39:25 richt has joined #sysapps 03:39:53 ... We looked at what is being done for Firefox as well as Chrome and think there is value in standards around the manifest format. 03:39:56 Tomoyuki has joined #sysapps 03:41:00 jeff has joined #sysapps 03:41:01 q? 03:41:04 q+ Mounir 03:42:24 ... There are lots of different views, but it is interesting to see what level of consensus can be reached around the manifest and SysApps APIs 03:42:56 q? 03:43:17 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 03:43:27 Anssi: manifest and app packaging? 03:43:49 Rich: we're starting from Chrom CRX but want to move towards a standards based solution 03:44:00 s/Chrom/Chrome/ 03:44:05 ack Mounir 03:44:13 virginie has joined #sysapps 03:44:28 emalasky1 has joined #sysapps 03:45:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 03:45:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ 03:45:09 Mounir: I was speaking with some Mozilla guys. Moving the manifest format spec to WebApps, but slow progress. 03:45:37 Rich: meta headers ... 03:46:34 Mounir: the full requirements for apps is too large to standardize all at once 03:47:25 kinuko has joined #sysapps 03:47:27 Rich: we're currently considering adding hosted apps to the device's home screen, and meta headers are effective for that 03:48:12 Anssi: it is likely that both meta headers and manifest will need to be supported to handle legacy and future 03:48:25 rrsagent, set logs public 03:48:26 plh has joined #sysapps 03:48:34 rrsagent, make minutes 03:48:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-sysapps-minutes.html dsr 03:49:10 Mounir: meta headers are not that efficient and don't scale as requirements grow 03:49:24 +1 on Mounir 03:49:45 Rich: I can agree with that sentiment, but let's focus on simple requirements as a starting point, i.e adding apps to home screen 03:50:24 Present+ Tomoyuki_Shimizu 03:51:01 Mounir: let's say you want to a link to facebook, but we need to worry about refresh 03:51:33 mounir_ has joined #sysapps 03:52:04 Wonsuk: manifest looks like a better long term solution 03:52:05 mounir_: in that case, you might want to have a property to define the bits of UI your website wants to use even if "bookmarked" 03:53:19 Anssi: Rich you seem to be describing an install API which includes a reference to the manifest. 03:53:52 Rich: install can pull data from the page or manifest ... 03:54:07 jehoochen has joined #sysapps 03:54:26 jehoochen has joined #sysapps 03:54:52 Rich: does WebApps have manifest on their agenda this week? 03:54:58 Mounir: no 03:55:26 igarashi has joined #sysapps 03:55:36 If you guys want to continue to discuss manifest here and now, we have time 03:55:48 maxwellma has joined #sysapps 03:56:30 Kenneth: there is no standard around how to use the meta tag content 03:57:15 Mounir: concerned that if we follow the meta tag route we risk a repeat of the problem's seen with app cache 03:58:17 jehoochen2 has joined #sysapps 03:59:06 q? 03:59:09 richt has joined #sysapps 03:59:14 Rich: even a simple meta tag to indicate that this is a web app is complicated as seen by the differences in current implementations 03:59:26 nkic has left #sysapps 03:59:35 nkic has joined #sysapps 03:59:40 saki has joined #sysapps 03:59:46 mounir_: (concerned because trying to specify a too simple solution because it is easy to implement and ship might prove itself limited later) 03:59:51 kenneth_, the problem with meta tags is that the page has to be refeched with extensions disabled to make sure that extensions etc didn't modify the dom (ie. add extra permissions etc) 04:00:15 nkic has joined #sysapps 04:00:21 Rich: apps can update the meta tag up to the point that the user adds the app to the home screen 04:00:45 ... we can take a snapshot at install time 04:01:07 web manifest - http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/manifest/ 04:02:00 Anssi describes risks around attacks that confuse user into installing a malicious app 04:02:41 Mounir: solution is to use CSP (content security policy) forbidding this 04:02:52 richt has joined #sysapps 04:03:41 richt has joined #sysapps 04:03:42 Rich: CSP gives us the control we need 04:04:24 Anssi: I would like to revisit app packaging formats. 04:05:21 Mounir: are developers willing to change their implementation around packaging? If not we are wasting our time discussing packaging. 04:06:00 Anssi: we are focusing on API interoperabiity, but not around packaging right now 04:06:14 Kenneth: but what about the future? 04:06:51 Anssi: can this working group resolve that we aren't working on interop around packaging? 04:07:09 Mounir: packaging is not out of scope, but also it is not a priority 04:07:36 Anssi: zipping is easy, but signing is hard 04:08:18 Anssi invites Anders as an expert on signing to state his view 04:08:32 Anders: best to adopt existing solution where possible 04:09:02 Rich: unfortunately, different vendors handle signing differently, so the ship has sailed on that 04:10:00 Mounir: if we use the same APIs that developers only have to deal with packaging for each app store 04:10:26 genelian has joined #sysapps 04:10:53 richt has joined #sysapps 04:11:21 andyK has joined #sysapps 04:12:07 richt has joined #sysapps 04:12:17 Anssi: on the list we raised whether the existing SysApps charter reflects the current reality? Should we revise the charter, or should we update the home page to clarify the group's priorities for people coming from the outside 04:12:21 q+ 04:12:34 +1 on anssi proposal to clarify priority and deliverables scope 04:13:31 Mounir: we need to establish a consensus before any consideration of changing the charter 04:13:49 myakura has joined #sysapps 04:13:54 ack gmandyam 04:13:54 Giri: rechartering would help to set clear expectations on priorities 04:13:55 q? 04:14:03 q+ 04:14:23 yuka_o has joined #sysapps 04:14:32 Rich: we need to foster APIs with strong implementation support 04:15:05 q+ 04:15:48 richt: how do we get people excited about the _idea_ of implementing standard APIs across runtimes? 04:15:50 Anssi: SysApps focuses on privileged APIs 04:16:15 q+ Mounir 04:16:19 wuwei has joined #sysapps 04:16:30 ... we need an environment to expose such APIs safely 04:16:41 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 04:17:04 Rich: executing the same code base in different environments should be our objective 04:17:22 ack anssi 04:17:26 ack virginie 04:18:16 Virginie: I would support work on clarifying this group's expectations. A Working Group Note would be valuable 04:18:38 re: 'executing the same code base in different environments'. That's why the web itself is so successful. Everyone is standardizing APIs because the same code base runs everywhere. That's not the case yet in SysApps. 04:19:05 Virginie: we would like to help, but need others to join in 04:19:16 ack mounir 04:19:56 saki has joined #sysapps 04:20:51 Mounir: it seems like the consensus has shifted on privileged vs web APIs, e.g. focus on service worker. Interested in changing charter to allow us to work on web apis as well as privileged environments. 04:21:11 q+ 04:21:20 Rich: good that SysApps is working on privileged APIs 04:21:49 richt has joined #sysapps 04:21:56 Kenneth, we have raw sockets implemented in our new runtime (privileged) 04:22:00 JINGWANG-QI_ has joined #sysapps 04:22:04 ack gman 04:22:04 q? 04:22:08 richt has joined #sysapps 04:23:00 Giri: there are some things like dialer that you want to avoid every tom, dick and harry re-implementing. 04:24:15 Topic: SysApps goals and rechartering 04:24:39 seo has joined #sysapps 04:25:00 Dave: we have further time on this topic tomorrow afternoon. We need a short but clear statement of a consensus on the group's goals 04:25:21 mounir_ has joined #sysapps 04:25:38 Summary of what I was trying to say: the current charter has lumped very different types of deliverables into Phase 1 which has bogged down the group. For instance, telephony has proven difficult and is probably not an API that should be exposed to arbitrary 3rd-party developers. 04:25:40 Rich: agreement on the execution environment is hard but a higher priority that say the contacts API 04:25:44 mounir_: to follow-up on Giri's comment, I would be happy to see Messaging, Telephony and maybe Contacts being de-prioritezed 04:26:12 Summary (cont.): Raw Sockets would be required for 3rd-party developers to provide them equivalent capability to what they have in native programming environments. 04:26:32 Mounir: we should get a consensus on goals before discussing specific APIs 04:26:45 Summary (cont.): Yet Raw Sockets and Telephony are both considered high-priority API's in the current charter. 04:27:48 Anssi: we may not need to recharter, but we certainly need a document setting out the priorities, perhaps just updating the home page and wiki 04:28:02 jehoochen has joined #sysapps 04:29:00 Mounir: we can continue this discussion tomorrow afternoon including the charter. 04:29:51 ... We will now break for lunch at resume at 2pm, and then walk over to WebApps at 3pm. 04:30:01 richt has joined #sysapps 04:30:12 rrsagent, make minutes 04:30:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-sysapps-minutes.html dsr 04:30:14 wonsuk, could you please put the link on the Agenda for DataStore API? 04:30:49 Mohammed has left #sysapps 04:31:53 kkubota2 has joined #sysapps 04:33:08 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 04:33:17 saki has joined #sysapps 04:34:47 -Wuzhou_west 04:34:48 UW_SYSAPPS()8:00PM has ended 04:34:49 Attendees were Wuzhou_west 04:39:13 kinuko has joined #sysapps 04:40:31 kinuko has joined #sysapps 04:54:00 kotakagi has joined #sysapps 05:04:30 kotakagi_ has joined #sysapps 05:31:34 kotakagi has joined #sysapps 05:34:13 kinuko has joined #sysapps 05:36:12 genelian has joined #sysapps 05:37:55 saki has joined #sysapps 05:41:22 hsinyi has joined #sysapps 05:41:27 razybon_ has joined #SysApps 05:43:35 Dong-Young_Lee has joined #sysapps 05:44:54 kaz has joined #sysapps 05:46:16 nsakai2 has joined #sysapps 05:46:55 myakura has joined #sysapps 05:47:22 Tomoyuki has joined #sysapps 05:48:13 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 05:51:22 sunghan_ has joined #sysapps 05:51:36 nsakai2_ has joined #sysapps 05:52:39 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 05:53:47 skim13_ has joined #sysapps 05:55:05 JINGWANG-QI_ has joined #sysapps 05:55:40 skim13_ has left #sysapps 05:56:54 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 05:57:30 JINGWANG-QI_ has joined #sysapps 05:58:22 genelian has joined #sysapps 05:58:52 saki has joined #sysapps 05:59:25 jinsong has joined #sysapps 06:00:24 thinker has joined #sysapps 06:01:21 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 06:01:26 Marcus_Altman__ has joined #sysapps 06:01:44 JINGWANG-QI_ has joined #sysapps 06:01:46 wonsuk has joined #sysapps 06:01:47 saki has joined #sysapps 06:01:52 efullea has joined #sysapps 06:02:17 jungkees has joined #sysapps 06:02:35 dsr has joined #sysapps 06:02:53 genelian has joined #sysapps 06:03:09 zqzhang has joined #sysapps 06:03:46 dsuwirya has joined #sysapps 06:03:55 MichaelH has joined #sysapps 06:03:58 zakim, call wuzhou_west 06:03:58 sorry, dsr, I don't know what conference this is 06:04:13 zakim, this is 7972 06:04:13 sorry, dsr, I do not see a conference named '7972' in progress or scheduled at this time 06:04:25 mounir_ has joined #sysapps 06:04:38 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 06:04:39 zakim, this will be 7972 06:04:39 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, dsr 06:04:46 zakim, this will be SYSA 06:04:46 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, dsr 06:05:14 saki_ has joined #sysapps 06:05:22 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 06:05:41 JonathanJ has joined #sysapps 06:06:03 jhmoon has joined #sysapps 06:06:06 Tomoyuki1 has joined #sysapps 06:06:06 zakim, this is 7972 06:06:06 sorry, dsr, I do not see a conference named '7972' in progress or scheduled at this time 06:06:17 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 06:06:29 JINGWANG-QI_ has joined #sysapps 06:06:32 jehoochen has joined #sysapps 06:06:41 masatakayakura has joined #sysapps 06:07:01 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 06:07:24 Scribe: mounir_ 06:07:29 ScribeNick: mounir_ 06:07:39 Hi, I am having troubles to dial in. It says the conference is restricted. I see you are not bein gable either 06:07:40 saki_ has left #sysapps 06:07:47 Topic: DataStore API overview 06:07:49 ito has joined #sysapps 06:08:12 Mohammed has joined #sysapps 06:08:17 kkubota2 has joined #sysapps 06:08:48 DataStore API: https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI/DataStore 06:09:05 jehoochen has joined #sysapps 06:09:20 seo has joined #sysapps 06:09:34 gmandyam has joined #sysapps 06:09:36 genelian: I will give you an overview of the DataStore API but we did not write a full spec yet 06:09:59 genelian: 06:10:12 nkic has joined #sysapps 06:10:16 saki_ has joined #sysapps 06:11:14 genelian: the goal of the API is to improve syncing and searching given the issues we had it Contacts and Messaging 06:11:32 johnny has joined #sysapps 06:11:33 myakura has joined #sysapps 06:11:55 johnny has joined #sysapps 06:12:09 genelian: it was very hard to define a Messaging API that would fulfil all the requirements of a Messaging app, for example, having group of messages 06:12:10 richt has joined #sysapps 06:12:42 Toshiy___ has joined #sysapps 06:12:44 genelian: the solution was to have a very simple Messaging API (send/receive) and there would be a central DataStore that would be used sync'd with 06:12:50 Yudong has joined #sysapps 06:12:56 ... so the application could do its own filtering based on its own UI requirements 06:13:00 rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight 06:13:07 zakim, this is 7972 06:13:07 sorry, dsr, I do not see a conference named '7972' in progress or scheduled at this time 06:14:10 Ruinan has joined #sysapps 06:14:33 * Hi Dave, the instructions in the wiki states you should type: zakim, call Wutong_West have you tried that? I am still not able to join... 06:14:47 JINGWANG-QI: hi 06:14:49 genelian: 06:15:30 Anders has joined #sysapps 06:16:05 JINGWANG-QI_ has joined #sysapps 06:16:54 genelian: 06:16:58 emalasky has joined #sysapps 06:17:18 genelian: the change event will be fired when the datastore is updated 06:17:28 virginie has joined #sysapps 06:17:49 emalasky1 has joined #sysapps 06:17:49 ... we are hoping to replace the our existing Messaging API and Contacts API to use this DataStore API 06:18:04 wuwei has joined #sysapps 06:18:14 ... we will put our design and ideas in a git repository so anyone can contribute to that 06:18:38 * ok dsr, I will wait until you solve the issue. thanks 06:18:45 ... before switching the Messaging API to use DataStore, we might need to fix a few pending issues 06:19:07 ... Zoltan and Marcos seem to be interested to have a separated interface that would be specialized for the searching and filtering 06:19:55 genelian: that way, the DataStore API will not only help synchronize data but also help the app adds some semantic by having some indexes for example 06:20:05 ... like the phone number of a message or the delivery time 06:20:19 genelian: that is pretty much it 06:20:24 chaals has joined #sysapps 06:20:28 q+ to ask about the performance 06:20:39 jehoochen has joined #sysapps 06:20:43 johnny_ has joined #sysapps 06:21:41 ack 06:21:52 mounir_: I was wondering if you have any feedback regarding performances 06:22:03 genelian: we have this implementation but we do not use it yet 06:22:17 ... the next step is to use it to maintain the conversations for our messaging application 06:22:21 zakim, room for 6 for 240m? 06:22:22 ok, dsr; conference Team_(sysapps)06:22Z scheduled with code 26636 (CONF6) for 240 minutes until 1022Z 06:22:35 zakim, this is 26636 06:22:35 dsr, I see Team_(sysapps)06:22Z in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 26636". 06:22:42 ... but you are right that performances are going to be a very big issue 06:22:43 zakim, this will be 26636 06:22:43 ok, dsr; I see Team_(sysapps)06:22Z scheduled to start now 06:22:48 seo has joined #sysapps 06:22:54 zakim, call Wuzhou_West 06:22:54 ok, dsr; the call is being made 06:22:56 Team_(sysapps)06:22Z has now started 06:22:57 +Wuzhou_West 06:23:01 Hi mounir I am interested in the overall discussion but I have no feedback on performance 06:23:22 ... the app will get an event every time there is a change which might require the app to change its index and make it slower than the current system 06:23:33 q+ 06:23:35 zakim, drop wuzhou_west 06:23:35 Wuzhou_West is being disconnected 06:23:37 Team_(sysapps)06:22Z has ended 06:23:37 Attendees were Wuzhou_West 06:23:40 zakim, call Wuzhou_West 06:23:40 ok, dsr; the call is being made 06:23:41 Team_(sysapps)06:22Z has now started 06:23:41 ack mounir_ 06:23:42 +Wuzhou_West 06:24:06 + +34.91.432.aaaa 06:24:38 Kepeng has joined #sysapps 06:25:02 dsr has changed the topic to: SysApps +1.617.761.6200, conference code 26636 06:25:07 * very low 06:26:14 q? 06:26:15 q? 06:26:49 nsakai2 has joined #sysapps 06:27:01 Topic: Contacts API 06:28:17 efullea: there is no major issues open 06:28:30 efullea: so, unless there are new issues opened, we should go to LC 06:30:08 wonsuk: what about DataStore in Contacts API? 06:30:24 efullea: we are doing some experimentations but it is too early to say 06:30:52 Summary of my comment: Data Store API is a two-step op for synchronization: (1) Invoke DataChangeEvent handler, and (2) Call sync(). The developer gets the benefit of a more flexible data model w/Data Store for Contacts/Messaging, but at the expense of managing synchronization with the local store. 06:31:03 jehoochen has joined #sysapps 06:31:40 mounir_: so, to summarize, there no outstanding issues except DataStore to go to LC? 06:32:39 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 06:33:00 JINGWANG-QI_ has joined #sysapps 06:33:28 jehoochen has joined #sysapps 06:33:58 mounir_: I propose that efullea takes an action which is check whether DataStore API is okay for the Contacts API and we should also make sure there is still some group interest in this API given that there was no activity in the past month 06:34:13 mounir_: after that, we could see whether the specification should go to LC as is 06:34:39 o 06:34:41 ok 06:35:18 ACTION: Eduardo will check whether DataStore matches Contacts API needs 06:35:32 ACTION: Mounir will check whether there is still group interest for the Contacts API 06:36:00 virginie has joined #sysapps 06:36:38 Topic: Messaging API 06:36:52 efullea: the problem with messaging is similar to Contacts API with regard to DataStore 06:37:22 efullea: I don't know of any implementation of Messaging using DataStore, maybe someone in the room is experimenting that? 06:37:38 q+ to ask if Mozilla is experimenting that in FxOS 06:37:53 efullea: same as the Contacts API, there was no activity since a while 06:38:36 efullea: 06:38:55 efullea: so, unless we move to DataStore, we can go to LC very shortly 06:38:59 q? 06:39:25 s/same as the Contacts API, there was no activity since a while// 06:39:33 ack mounir_ 06:39:33 mounir_, you wanted to ask if Mozilla is experimenting that in FxOS 06:40:14 mounir_: I was wondering if Mozilla is experimenting Messaging with DataStore 06:41:13 genelian: we do not for the moment, it is complex and it will take a couple of months so it might unlikely happen before the next F2F 06:41:24 ... all we are discussing now is actually mostly theoretical 06:42:14 dka has joined #sysapps 06:42:28 mounir_: do you want to go to LC without DataStore? 06:42:31 efullea: yes 06:43:49 mounir_: I feel that going to LC without DataStore might be counter-productive if we do use DataStore 06:44:26 anssik: can we push out LC1 and then push out LC2 after some major changes? 06:45:59 mounir_: I propose to have as a resolution to not move Messaging API before we have as stronger opinion regarding the DataStore API 06:46:16 anssik: I agree, this specification do not look stable to me 06:46:39 q+ 06:46:39 efullea: it sounds like blocking the specification for a few months, I do not know if we should do that but I am fine either way 06:46:49 ack anssik 06:47:25 anssik: going to last call is an expensive step because we ask to other groups to review your work and people might end up using their time reviewing this API knowing that we might go to a totally different path in a few months 06:48:16 mounir_: I propose to put an action on efullea to lead the discussion regarding whether the DataStore API should be used for messaging 06:48:35 ok 06:48:47 ACTION: Eduardo will lead the discussion to see whether the DataStore API should be used for Messaging 06:49:05 RESOLUTION: Messaging API will not go to LC until the DataStore situation is not stable 06:49:46 JonathanJ has joined #sysapps 06:49:52 s/is not stable/is stable 06:49:56 rrsagent, draft minutes 06:49:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ 06:50:04 mounir_: we have a few minutes to wrap up and go to the other room for the joint meeting with WebApps 06:50:22 mounir_: we will be back there after the Service Worker discussion, I do not know when 06:52:00 - 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+358.986.aacc 08:12:35 + +358.986.aaee 08:13:25 Tomoyuki has joined #sysapps 08:16:24 saki has joined #sysapps 08:17:01 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 08:17:05 gmandyam has joined #sysapps 08:18:06 Toshiya_ has joined #sysapps 08:18:28 dsuwirya has joined #sysapps 08:19:00 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 08:19:00 dsr has joined #sysapps 08:19:13 Dong-Young_Lee has joined #sysapps 08:19:20 myakura has joined #sysapps 08:19:51 We are about to resume after a coffee break following the joint session on service workers with WebApps. 08:20:28 jhmoon has joined #sysapps 08:20:34 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 08:20:55 Marcus_Altman_ has joined #sysapps 08:21:07 mounir_ has joined #sysapps 08:21:10 Toshiya__ has joined #sysapps 08:21:30 Scribe: mounir_ 08:21:33 ScribeNick: mounir_ 08:21:37 Topic: Telephony API 08:21:52 saki_ has joined #sysapps 08:21:55 https://rawgithub.com/sysapps/telephony/gh-pages/index2.html 08:22:04 ito has joined #sysapps 08:22:15 zolkis: the current spec is here: https://rawgithub.com/sysapps/telephony/gh-pages/index2.html 08:22:36 Toshiya_ has joined #sysapps 08:22:41 saki__ has joined #sysapps 08:23:30 Toshiya_ has joined #sysapps 08:23:31 zolkis: there have been a few changes, that is why it is index2.html so people can compare to the previous document 08:23:44 -Wuzhou_West 08:23:46 saki___ has joined #sysapps 08:24:41 zakim, dial wuzhou_west 08:24:41 ok, dsr; the call is being made 08:24:43 +Wuzhou_west 08:25:08 zolkis: 08:25:54 satakagi has joined #sysapps 08:26:07 short summary on the Telephony spec 08:26:31 TelephonyManager now implements a series of interfaces: 08:26:47 ijongche_ has joined #sysapps 08:26:53 services related, call management, tone management, emergency numbers, command parser 08:27:07 johnny has joined #sysapps 08:27:33 ServiceManager can also implement CallManager and EmergencyManager 08:27:57 in this spec navigator.telephony implements them and it is the main entry point 08:28:09 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 08:28:21 the service + command parsing support was added because issues raised asking for support 08:28:32 also, client side call merge is supported 08:28:33 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 08:28:49 which made the API very suitable also for supporting VoIP calls 08:29:09 this is the summary 08:29:11 questions? 08:29:14 richt has joined #sysapps 08:29:28 q? 08:29:35 zqzhang has joined #sysapps 08:30:14 q+ 08:30:23 Mohammed has joined #sysapps 08:30:25 Ruinan has joined #sysapps 08:30:50 dsr: how many of the companies here want to implement this? 08:31:12 Intel will do it for 2 telephony backends and 2 platforms 08:31:58 Mozilla implementation is close to the spec, but would require some work, to support the current split of functionality in interfaces 08:32:34 on Android and Crosswalk 08:33:00 hsinyi: this is close to what Mozilla does but the structure is different so it is not clear whether we have the ressources 08:33:52 hmin has joined #sysapps 08:33:53 mounir_: Google is not going to implement that anytime soon as far as I know 08:33:56 q? 08:34:20 ack gmandyam 08:34:37 can't hear, I rely only on the chat transcript 08:35:16 gmandyam: it would be interesting to know if the spec is stable enough so I could get feedback internally 08:35:34 Marcus_Altman has joined #sysapps 08:35:36 mounir_: it would be interesting to get some feedback from Qualcom indeed 08:35:41 yes, it is now - I will add support for constructing the events where it is missing 08:35:52 but I will do it today, and it is a small change 08:36:02 How many outstanding issues are there in Telephony API spec? 08:36:12 OK - will get a review from our internal telephony team. 08:36:19 virginie has joined #sysapps 08:36:36 gwm has joined #sysapps 08:36:36 I will close them one by one as this current proposal gets reviewed: most of the issues should be solved by now 08:36:54 they are not recorded to be solved, but I will make a swee[p 08:37:31 right now there are 31 open issues 08:38:15 ACTION: gmandyam will send the specification internally to get some feedback from Qualcom telephony team 08:38:21 thanks gmandyam! that would be helpful 08:38:28 mounir_: what's the next step for the specification? 08:38:43 clean up the open issues, get feedback from Qualcomm 08:39:03 q? 08:39:30 Zoltan, is CellularService going to be spec'ed or not? - Giri 08:40:17 JonathanJ has joined #sysapps 08:40:28 right now that is a note that it could be spec'd - but should it be done in this document, or in a separate one? 08:40:41 mounir_: we will need Mozilla implementation (or another one) before going to LC 08:40:51 annsik: but it is not required until CR, right? 08:41:06 mounir_: indeed but it is a good practice to get two implementations to go to LC 08:41:42 gmandyam: given that this is quite linked to the modem, having two multiple implementations is even more important than usual 08:41:57 gmandyam, specifying all cellular interfaces is a huge work; it can be done, but we need to justify the effort; right now what we know is how to do it when it comes to it 08:41:59 richt has joined #sysapps 08:42:40 the modems are abstracted by TelephonyService 08:42:45 q? 08:42:46 JonathanJ1 has joined #sysapps 08:43:01 kkubota2 has joined #sysapps 08:43:24 mounir_: is having two implementations from the same company good enough? 08:43:36 dka has joined #sysapps 08:43:47 It would be great if Mozilla also review and give feedbacks about current Telephony spec. 08:43:59 zolkis: the implementatios have to be independent I believe 08:44:10 yes, but they are done by different teams 08:44:23 To clarify:Is the "Two Implementation" rule of thumb that normally is used in W3C really applicable to telephony API? Should it be two implementations involving different modems? Or is two web runtime implementations using the same modem sufficient? 08:44:31 if you define independent by company, then we need someone else, too 08:45:02 yes, still questions 08:45:11 Zoltan, Is Tizen implementation going to be verified with Intel modem? 08:45:14 I think we should support at least 2 different modems 08:45:32 and also, 2 different telephony middleware + os 08:47:05 dsr: I think that the w3c director is looking for entirely independent implementations so in this case, we might want different modems 08:47:21 mounir_: zolkis, anything else? 08:47:21 I agree 08:47:38 let's continue by emails and by discussing issues 08:47:43 https://github.com/sysapps/telephony/issues?state=open 08:48:12 mounir_: sounds good, let's move to the next topic, if we can reach Marcos 08:48:28 Q: CamelCase for oncalladded, callremoved, activechanged? 08:48:43 not for events 08:48:45 jinsong has joined #sysapps 08:49:49 +1 to move app URI to LC 08:50:06 q+ 08:51:29 ack gmandyam 08:51:44 richt has joined #sysapps 08:52:22 Marcus_Altman has joined #sysapps 08:52:39 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 08:52:40 saki has joined #sysapps 08:53:31 See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sysapps/2013Oct/0042.html. RichT had asked about whether app:URI can be more broadly applied. 08:54:47 My comment: I think it could be used for broader purposes without affecting its current functionality by relaxing the requirements in Sec. 6.4 08:55:39 kotakagi has joined #sysapps 08:56:21 shan has joined #sysapps 08:57:17 nkic_ has joined #sysapps 08:58:26 Here's a follow up use cases for adding additional app:// URI dereferencing models without affecting 'package' dereferencing currently defined: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sysapps/2013Oct/0053.html 08:58:28 saki_ has joined #sysapps 08:59:08 ACTION: Mounir will reach out internally at Google to get some feedback regarding the specification 08:59:27 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 08:59:44 gwm has joined #sysapps 09:00:38 q+ 09:01:06 ack MichaelH 09:01:23 richt has joined #sysapps 09:02:12 MichaelH: I had a question about app lifecycle regarding the cancel event, I am not sure what is that for 09:02:25 anssik: it was actually dropped 09:02:48 rrsagent, make minutes 09:02:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-sysapps-minutes.html dsr 09:03:03 we close for the day 09:03:05 rrsagent, make minutes 09:03:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-sysapps-minutes.html dsr 09:04:18 - +34.91.432.aadd 09:04:32 wonsuk has joined #sysapps 09:05:43 johnny has left #sysapps 09:05:54 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 09:07:16 ijongcheol has joined #sysapps 09:08:26 -Wuzhou_west 09:08:52 - +358.986.aaee 09:08:53 Team_(sysapps)06:22Z has ended 09:08:53 Attendees were Wuzhou_West, +34.91.432.aaaa, +358.986.aabb, +358.986.aacc, +34.91.432.aadd, +358.986.aaee 09:09:59 kaz has joined #sysapps 09:11:16 ijongche_ has joined #sysapps 09:12:13 richt has joined #sysapps 09:13:19 richt has joined #sysapps 09:15:46 richt has joined #sysapps 09:16:27 ijongcheol has joined #sysapps 09:17:05 Toshiya_ has joined #sysapps 09:21:23 Tomoyuki_ has joined #sysapps 09:22:03 ijongcheol has joined #sysapps 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Github has joined #sysapps 11:21:16 [13telephony] 15zolkis opened pull request #211: added constructors to events for testability (06gh-pages...06gh-pages) 02http://git.io/ku7dCQ 11:21:16 Github has left #sysapps 11:21:42 Github has joined #sysapps 11:21:42 [13telephony] 15zolkis closed pull request #211: added constructors to events for testability (06gh-pages...06gh-pages) 02http://git.io/ku7dCQ 11:21:42 Github has left #sysapps 11:21:44 Github has joined #sysapps 11:21:44 01[13telephony01] 15zolkis pushed 2 new commits to 06gh-pages: 02http://git.io/UEuRuw 11:21:44 13telephony/06gh-pages 14b7f5453 15Zoltan Kis: added constructors to events for testability 11:21:44 13telephony/06gh-pages 1490fc613 15Zoltan Kis: Merge pull request #211 from zolkis/gh-pages... 11:21:44 Github has left #sysapps 11:30:03 myakura has joined #sysapps 11:51:16 Zakim has left #sysapps 12:03:12 hsinyi has joined #sysapps 12:17:24 marcosc has joined #sysapps 12:37:41 kaz has joined #sysapps 13:00:32 marcosc 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Tomoyuki1 has joined #sysapps 00:49:29 Tomoyuki has joined #sysapps 00:49:41 terri has joined #sysapps 00:52:08 Takahiro_ has joined #sysapps 00:52:36 mete has joined #sysapps 00:57:13 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 00:58:13 MichaelH has joined #sysapps 00:58:35 Hi, I am on the line 00:59:25 kotakagi has joined #sysapps 01:00:03 wonsuk has joined #sysapps 01:03:48 chaals has joined #sysapps 01:03:59 dsr has joined #sysapps 01:05:32 Mohammed has joined #sysapps 01:06:45 ijongcheol has joined #sysapps 01:07:30 terri has joined #sysapps 01:09:49 nsakai2 has joined #sysapps 01:10:35 mounir_ has joined #sysapps 01:11:26 mete has left #sysapps 01:11:40 Zakim has joined #sysapps 01:11:59 zakim, this will be 7972 01:11:59 ok, dsr; I see UW_SYSAPPS()8:00PM scheduled to start 12 minutes ago 01:12:08 Anders has joined #sysapps 01:12:15 zakim, dial WuZhou_West 01:12:15 ok, dsr; the call is being made 01:12:42 dsr has changed the topic to: SysApps +1.617.761.6200, conference code 7972 01:13:01 dsuwirya has joined #sysapps 01:13:13 maxwellma has joined #sysapps 01:13:16 zakim, who is on the phone? 01:13:16 UW_SYSAPPS()8:00PM has not yet started, dsr 01:13:18 On IRC I see maxwellma, dsuwirya, Anders, Zakim, mounir_, nsakai2, terri, ijongcheol, Mohammed, dsr, wonsuk, kotakagi, MichaelH, Takahiro_, Tomoyuki, Marcus_Altman____, razybon, 01:13:18 ... Hisa_, myakura, emalasky, lgombos_, cdumez, spoussa_, thinker 01:13:37 zakim, this is 7972 01:13:37 ok, dsr; that matches UW_SYSAPPS()8:00PM 01:14:00 rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight 01:14:57 agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/System_Applications:_3rd_F2F_Meeting_Agenda_TPAC 01:15:05 chair: Mounir 01:15:06 ito has joined #sysapps 01:15:11 scribe: Mounir 01:15:33 Present: Dave, Mounir, Wonsuk 01:16:01 genelian has joined #sysapps 01:16:24 mounir_: 01:16:27 fan_ has joined #sysapps 01:16:32 jungkees has joined #sysapps 01:16:43 mounir_: we will start with the Task Scheduler API and because Christophe is on the phone, we will mostly use IRC 01:16:45 Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen 01:16:47 Present+ Jungkee_Song 01:16:51 ... so please, make sure to join the sysapps channel 01:17:00 Topic: Task Scheduler 01:17:04 marcosc has joined #sysapps 01:17:26 mounir_: we are going to start with a status update from Christophe 01:17:29 jehoochen has joined #sysapps 01:17:40 Present+ Christophe_Dumez 01:17:43 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 01:17:59 zakim, who is on the phone? 01:17:59 On the phone I see +1.617.840.aaaa, WuZhou_West 01:18:20 Present+ Thinker_Lee 01:18:20 This is me on the phone but I barely hear anything 01:18:41 so I can use IRC if this is OK 01:18:57 Yes!! 01:19:18 Task Scheduler API draft URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/web-alarms/ 01:20:02 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 01:20:04 cdumez: since the last F2F, I made three changes to the specification 01:20:24 ... the first one is removing the timezone support from the API, it simplifies the API quite a bit 01:20:24 * http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/web-alarms/#taskscheduler 01:20:32 ... especially the add() method 01:20:49 kkubota2 has joined #sysapps 01:20:51 * http://www.w3.org/TR/WebIDL/#common-DOMTimeStamp 01:21:07 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sysapps/2013Nov/0012.html 01:21:10 cdumez: the API is no longer using Date but DOM timestamp, defined in WebIDL 01:21:15 Date.now() + DELAY_IN_MS 01:21:52 cdumez: the second change is that we no longer throw an exception if the schedule is in the past 01:22:15 ... instead, the new behaviour is to fire the task as soon as possible asynchronously 01:22:45 cdumez: otherwise, there have been some discussions recently on the mailing list, mostly about adding support for priority about scheduling an alarm 01:22:55 ... whether the time has to be exact or can be delayed 01:23:06 ... I propose something in the mailing list and I am waiting for feedback on this one 01:23:18 + +1.503.712.aabb 01:23:20 cdumez: This is is regarding the status of the API 01:23:36 mounir_: any question or comment? 01:23:52 dsr: the usual question: who is implementing the specification? 01:23:53 +q 01:23:58 q+ 01:24:07 q+ to ask about the relation with the spec and Service Worker 01:24:30 kenneth: because of the unknown relationship with the service worker, we can't implement that spec yet 01:24:33 anssik: +1 01:24:35 ito_ has joined #sysapps 01:24:48 Baoping_Cheng has joined #sysapps 01:25:09 mounir_: I was going to ask Christophe about that actually 01:25:21 JINGWANG-QI_ has joined #sysapps 01:25:30 annsik: functionaly-wise I feel that it could happen in service worker 01:25:40 anssik: cdumez, any comment? 01:26:02 I am not familiar with service workers yet, sorry 01:26:09 gwm has joined #sysapps 01:26:18 Right now the API relies on system messages from Runtime specification 01:26:26 https://gist.github.com/slightlyoff/7fae65a908ac318f69a3 01:26:41 But last I heard, system messages would get replaces by sometimes else more chrome-extension like 01:26:57 mounir_: regarding implementation status, there might be some interest at Google to implement that but if that happen, it would be on top of Service Worker I believe 01:27:34 anssik: I pasted a link that has a draft about using alarms on top of service worker 01:27:51 anssik: I would like to know if chris wants to keep that has standalone or want to build it on top of service worker? 01:28:37 max has joined #sysapps 01:29:07 mounir_: while waiting for Chris to reply, what about Mozilla implementation status? 01:29:25 genelian: we have an implementation but we use System Messages for the moment 01:29:52 thinker: my concern is the removal of timezone, 01:30:01 ... there are issues with device time and local time 01:32:17 hsinyi has joined #sysapps 01:32:33 thinker: 01:34:25 q+ to ask if the Moz impl is still moz-prefixed 01:34:31 mounir_: will you switch to Service Worker if we happen to change the spec? 01:34:45 genelian: it should be realisable 01:35:18 ack anssik 01:35:18 anssik, you wanted to ask if the Moz impl is still moz-prefixed 01:35:24 anssik: is the implementation prefixed? 01:35:26 ack mounir_ 01:35:26 mounir_, you wanted to ask about the relation with the spec and Service Worker 01:35:32 navigator.mozAlarms 01:35:45 anssik: if the implementation is still prefixed, it should not be a problem to switch? 01:35:59 mounir_: I believe it is prefixed 01:36:57 genelian: yes, it is prefixed 01:39:20 ACTION: cdumez will write a new Task Scheduler specification based on Service Worker 01:39:39 Oh was that agreed? :) 01:39:42 nkic has joined #sysapps 01:40:04 Was service worker merged into the runtime specification? 01:40:06 max has joined #sysapps 01:40:29 I mean that the task scheduler API is using what is defined in the runtime specification currently. 01:40:29 no, we will build the app lifecycle on top of it 01:40:43 the runtime specification is going to be shelved 01:40:49 with some definition of shelved 01:41:05 Ok, well, if the group agrees, fine by me 01:41:19 renoirb has joined #sysapps 01:41:41 re http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/runtime/ status: "The System Applications Working Group is currently not progressing the approach outlined in this draft. Please treat this document with caution and do not reference it or use it as the basis for implementation. The domain covered by this document is still within the scope of the Working Group as defined in 01:41:41 its Charter." 01:41:49 jehoochen__ has joined #sysapps 01:41:51 Hi everybody! 01:41:53 Topic: Web Payments 01:42:04 - +1.617.840.aaaa 01:42:30 manu: the work that we are doing in the Web Payments group is build payments in the core architecture of the Web 01:42:39 JonathanJ1 has joined #sysapps 01:42:43 ... if you go to a website, you should easily be able to build a product that you want using APIs 01:42:53 Present+ Jonathan_Jeon 01:43:01 ... As you can expect, when you are talking about Payments, identity and security is important 01:43:06 ... that is why the work of SysApps is important to us 01:43:20 ... for example, being able to access a Secure Element is important regarding security 01:43:44 manu: My goal here is to give a heads up to let every one know that we have a Web Payment group 01:44:05 rrsagent, draft minutes 01:44:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1 01:44:08 mete has joined #sysapps 01:44:29 manu: How many people here believe that the web payments work is being to affect there organization? 01:44:44 ... would you be interested to join the Web Payments group given your organization progress in web payments? 01:45:09 manu: We have a breakout session on Wednesday 01:45:43 manu: the second question is how to integrate the Web Payments work with SysApps? 01:45:53 anssik: so you guys don't have any concrete proposal at this time? 01:46:04 manu: actually, we have a set of specs (8) 01:46:09 kotakagi_ has joined #sysapps 01:46:24 ... we don't need sysapps work for the moment but we might need secure element at some point 01:46:35 anssik: could you briefly summarize the implementations? 01:46:47 manu: we have nothing implementing in major browsers 01:46:53 ... because we don't want to get blocked 01:47:09 ... it is mostly working around de-centralized approach like Mozilla Persona 01:47:21 ... we are also working with the IETF 01:47:29 ... (like HTTP Signature spec) 01:48:20 q+ to ask more details about the implementations status (who is expected to implement? and who implements? basically, is it interoperable?) 01:48:43 manu: 01:49:51 manu: we have Mozilla, Bloomberg, small security companies 01:50:06 ... financial institutes are also interested 01:50:28 ... because Web Payment would allow touching the 2.5 billions people that do not have a bank account 01:50:44 ack 01:50:48 ack mounir_ 01:50:48 mounir_, you wanted to ask more details about the implementations status (who is expected to implement? and who implements? basically, is it interoperable?) 01:52:07 richt has joined #sysapps 01:52:34 manu: Mozilla Persona is not a requirement but we are looking for a nice identity solution and Persona is a nice one, that is why we use that 01:52:46 ... the idea is not to take what Mozilla has currently and stamp it as a standard and go one 01:52:52 rsleevi has joined #sysapps 01:53:02 ... we had a lot of discussions with Mozilla teams on this 01:53:07 Chuante_Chan has joined #sysapps 01:53:22 ... what I am saying is that it would be ideal if Mozilla Persona continues in the trajectory it is on 01:53:32 eliezerb has joined #sysapps 01:53:41 ... if Persona work fails, they are going to need an identity solution and we have a backup spec if that becomes necessary 01:53:55 manu: so that is kind of where we are with Mozilla on this 01:54:08 ... as far as who is required to implement this, there are a couple of answers for that 01:54:16 ... one set of implementers would be the banks 01:54:35 ... we have been speaking with banks standard body (SWIFT) 01:54:52 ... they want something that is Paypal/Google Wallet that is open so any bank can use it 01:55:34 ... the other group that is interested in this work are the large technology companies that could compete with the banks if they implement the solutions 01:55:46 ... cellphone providers and operators are in a third basket 01:56:02 ... if you have a mobile phone, it is very easy to associate it with a credit card or a bank account of some kind 01:56:17 ... and the fourth group of implementers, 01:56:29 richt_ has joined #sysapps 01:56:56 sunghan_ has joined #sysapps 01:56:58 q+ to ask if NFC is in scope 01:57:14 ... are implementers of the identity solutions like governments so banks can digitally verify identity of their customers 01:57:24 ack anssik 01:57:24 anssik, you wanted to ask if NFC is in scope 01:57:38 manu: NFC is optional, there are many things that we could add to this work 01:57:56 ... we would love to use NFC but it is not a requirement yet 01:58:15 ... no one is really screaming NFC yet in the group 01:59:32 Fan: two questions: does web payments have other solutions if Secure Element do not take off? 02:00:32 ... 02:01:02 Fan: are you considering the security issues regarding running JS code? 02:01:14 manu: the secure element seems to be our best best right now 02:01:23 ... an alternative might be to use the Web Crypto API 02:01:36 ... both those solutions would be related to client base digitil signature 02:01:46 ... all those stuff would happen in the cloud 02:02:06 ... we do not require those mechanisms for the moment but we would like to make this happen 02:02:18 manu: regarding running JS alongside the API we are running 02:02:29 ... yes, we looked into it but we do not think it was good enough 02:02:37 ... and we would have to do many security passes 02:02:48 ... right now, there is no client side code 02:03:06 ... any of the standard security issues we have (click jacking, ...) exist for Web Payments 02:03:18 ... for the moment there is no API running on the client so there is no attack surface yet 02:03:30 manu: hopefully that answers your second question 02:03:51 q? 02:03:55 Max has joined #sysapps 02:04:29 manu: I will drop two links on IRC: a Mozilla Hacks blog post and a link to join the group 02:05:47 virginie has joined #sysapps 02:06:17 manu: now a CG, planning to create a WG, to have a workshop in ~March 2014 02:06:18 mounir_: we will do Secure Element and then finish the morning sessions early 02:06:22 manu: https://payswarm.com/intro <--- introduction to PaySwarm 02:06:22 Topic: Secure Element 02:07:15 manu: https://payswarm.com/join <-- instructions on joining Web Payments group 02:07:46 dsuwirya: 02:07:55 manu: if you want to contact me directly - msporny at digitalbazaar.com 02:08:00 dsuwirya: 02:08:34 dsuwirya: the intention this morning is to judge the interest of the group for the Secure Element 02:09:14 Secure Element API:http://opoto.github.io/secure-element/ 02:09:15 Secure Element API: http://opoto.github.io/secure-element/ 02:09:20 dsuwirya: the secure element is a micro controller with RAM, ROM, etc. 02:09:34 ... it offers hardware and software protections against the attacks 02:10:01 ... it usually have a JVM running so we can run different applications 02:10:20 ... the purpose of the interface is to provide an interface for web applications to talk to the applications running in the SE 02:11:02 eliezerb has joined #sysapps 02:11:08 marcosc has joined #sysapps 02:11:15 dsuwirya: the SE is complying to ISO7816-4 02:11:19 ... there are many form factors 02:11:27 ... most commonly on a credit size card 02:11:39 dsuwirya: 02:11:50 dsuwirya: this one can be contact or contact-less 02:11:54 jinsong has joined #sysapps 02:12:02 dsuwirya: the second form factor is the one we have on Mobile, we call it ICC 02:12:09 ... it is mostly called a SIM 02:12:24 ... but it is actually the application responsible for the network access but it is only on part of the SE 02:12:42 dsuwirya: finally, some SD cards have a SE inside, even some have NFC supports 02:13:12 dsuwirya: it could also be a USB tocken or a passport 02:13:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 02:13:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1 02:13:35 dsuwirya: when we are talking about applications for the SE, we are talking about two parts: 02:13:51 ... on card applications and off card applications, they run respectively inside and outside the SE 02:14:06 s/ICC UICC 02:14:24 dsuwirya: about UC 02:14:33 ... the first common UC is about strong authentification 02:14:35 m4nu has joined #sysapps 02:14:39 s/ICC/UICC/ 02:15:00 ... for email signature, encryption, etc. 02:15:12 ... a second common UC is digital signature 02:15:26 ... the strong point of the SE is that the key and the signature computation will happen inside the card 02:15:41 ... which prevents extracting the key and ensure the integrity of the process 02:15:46 ... the third UC is about payment 02:16:31 ... for card present transactions 02:16:47 ... the last UC is credential provisionning 02:16:59 ... to top up credit remotely on your card for example 02:17:17 ... that is for the most common UCs 02:17:35 dsuwirya: the next section about the relationship with the other W3C APIs 02:17:54 ... to underline that there is no overlap 02:18:18 dsuwirya: regarding security and privacy, the problem is similar to the rest of API we are going to discuss with SysApps 02:18:31 ... there are the same problems as in bluetooth api 02:19:06 ... in order to insure integrity and security, we can use the trusted execution environment 02:19:13 ... or we can also use an already existing secure messaging 02:19:26 ... protocol 02:19:41 ... We can also use the trusted environment here to help secure the interface 02:19:59 ... in a desktop environment, we can use hardware feedback - to enter the PIN 02:20:13 ... Usually, we are limiting the access to the secure element to only trusted applications 02:20:45 ... The secure element will have a list of trusted applications that the OS will provide before the SE talks to an application 02:20:59 ... The last point is traceablitiy 02:21:24 emalasky has joined #sysapps 02:21:30 dsuwirya: the last point is describing the relationship between actors around the Secure Element 02:21:47 ... to use SE, we need a reader, there can be one or more reader per device 02:22:07 ... for example, NFC, sim slot, sd card slot are all readers 02:22:24 ... The next entities is the container of applications that can run multiple apps at the same time 02:22:41 ... if you look at the flow of the diagram there, the idea is to first get the SecureElementManager 02:22:55 ... then, the manager will provide the methods to enumerate the readers 02:23:34 ... from there, we can establish a session with the SE and a channel with the application you want to talk to 02:23:48 dsuwirya: This is the interface that we wrote to represent those entities 02:24:12 dsuwirya: 02:24:28 emalasky1 has joined #sysapps 02:24:31 Chan_ has joined #sysapps 02:25:43 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 02:26:00 dsuwirya: 02:26:53 Toshiya_ has joined #sysapps 02:27:20 dsuwirya: any question before we go to the demos? 02:27:43 thinker: with this API, we send low levels commands to the SE 02:28:03 ... with this API we do not know which features are available in the SE 02:28:30 q+ 02:28:45 ... which means that if you give access to the SE element to an application, it will have access to everything 02:29:19 dsuwirya: the level you are talking about is at the service level 02:29:38 ... defining interfaces at the service level is not sufficient 02:29:58 q+ 02:30:11 thinker: my question is that wants we get a certificate, we want the application to use that certificate to do something specific but we can't control what the application is doing 02:30:23 ... with this API, we can not do this kind of control 02:30:42 MichaelH: I think that the issue here is a protocol communication channel 02:31:08 ... you would have to implement that yourself in a client/server architecture 02:31:22 Mohammed: when you get the authorisation to access a feature for your application, it is only available for this session 02:31:42 thinker: you mean that you use different channels for different features? 02:31:57 Mohammed: you have to reopen a new signature for new application 02:32:41 q+ to ask about installing new applications on the card, e.g. when installing a new payment solution provider 02:32:50 thinker: 02:33:37 q? 02:35:48 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 02:38:00 ack fan_ 02:38:18 Fan: would the secure element be in televisions? 02:38:27 ijongcheol has joined #sysapps 02:39:13 ... 02:39:23 Mohammed: we have that already 02:39:46 Fan: is it using micro-sd? 02:39:59 Mohammed: no, chipset cards, to get content from service providers 02:40:14 Fan: maybe not all tv will have a slot 02:40:31 MichaelH: the form factor is not really involved in the specification 02:42:32 Fan: 02:42:41 dsuwirya: TEE is out of scope of this API 02:42:44 q? 02:43:12 ack rsleevi 02:43:34 rsleevi: I am concerned with this on a security and performance side 02:43:41 ... this API is the scariest I have ever seen 02:44:34 ... 02:44:45 ... and this api gives access to everything or nothing 02:44:57 ... I disagree that the PIN is enough to solve this problem 02:44:59 q? 02:45:40 Max has joined #sysapps 02:45:53 rsleevi: I think the performances implication of insertion and removal events is scary 02:46:36 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 02:46:42 rsleevi: this is not future-compatible 02:46:42 rsleevi: I would like to see a way to restrict the API to specific applications 02:47:29 Mohammed: we never had performance issues so far 02:47:34 Chan__ has joined #sysapps 02:47:36 ... and we have malware checks for security 02:47:41 and did had any issues with that 02:47:47 s/and did/... and did/ 02:48:11 - +1.503.712.aabb 02:49:34 Takahiro has joined #sysapps 02:50:48 ack dsr 02:50:48 dsr, you wanted to ask about installing new applications on the card, e.g. when installing a new payment solution provider 02:51:29 +1 to what rsleevi just said - very concerning. 02:51:37 Mohammed: today, there is no standard on this 02:52:21 Manu: +1 to what Ryan Sleevi said, the API needs some work wrt Promises and has some security concerns that the Web Payments group will have more input on in the future. 02:52:25 -WuZhou_West 02:52:27 UW_SYSAPPS()8:00PM has ended 02:52:27 Attendees were +1.617.840.aaaa, WuZhou_West, +1.503.712.aabb 02:54:07 dsr: [...] that was the first question, the second question was about the PIN, did you consider alternatives? 02:54:34 MichaelH: it does not really matter what is being used, it just needs to be some bytes that matches what the card knows 02:54:43 ... it could be one digit, two, a thounsand 02:55:40 MichaelH has joined #sysapps 02:56:06 dsuwirya: 02:56:15 I was asking about alternative means to support user presence authentication such as finger print scanners, and the implications for SysApps. 02:57:28 Some kind of trusted computing environment is needed to secure the user presence info. 03:00:44 Mohammed: 03:00:57 virginie has joined #sysapps 03:01:02 sunghan_ has joined #sysapps 03:01:43 lgombos has joined #sysapps 03:02:27 mete has joined #sysapps 03:03:22 dsuwirya: to add a little bit about payments, there is a nation-wide payment system that will be available this year in the US to pay by tapping (card present payment authorisation) 03:03:59 rrsagent, set logs public 03:05:37 marcosc has joined #sysapps 03:05:54 RESOLUTION: there are some concerns about security and performance regarding Secure Element - this should be worked on, such as the implementation intent 03:06:56 rrsagent, make minutes 03:06:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-sysapps-minutes.html Tomoyuki 03:08:27 myakura has joined #sysapps 03:14:39 chaals has joined #sysapps 03:17:27 marcus has joined #sysapps 03:18:14 richt has joined #sysapps 03:18:38 ywu_ has joined #sysapps 03:18:58 m4nu has joined #sysapps 03:21:42 ijongcheol has joined #sysapps 03:22:26 emalasky has joined #sysapps 03:25:29 kinukoAndroUser has joined #sysapps 03:25:43 m4nu has joined #sysapps 03:26:10 richt_ has joined #sysapps 03:32:45 kinukoAndroUser has joined #sysapps 03:36:15 marcus has joined #sysapps 03:36:28 m4nu has joined #sysapps 03:36:31 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 03:39:02 emalasky1 has joined #sysapps 03:44:57 m4nu has joined #sysapps 03:47:34 razybon has joined #sysapps 03:48:21 nkic has joined #sysapps 03:48:40 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 03:57:30 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 03:59:34 marcosc has joined #sysapps 04:03:52 myakura_ has joined #sysapps 04:11:38 emalasky has joined #sysapps 04:12:25 ijongcheol has joined #sysapps 04:14:54 JINGWANG-QI_ has joined #sysapps 04:29:11 ijongcheol has joined #sysapps 04:29:11 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 04:31:37 chaals has joined #sysapps 04:53:46 marcosc has joined #sysapps 05:02:08 Zakim has left #sysapps 05:02:25 mete has joined #sysapps 05:03:53 kotakagi has joined #sysapps 05:04:12 Tomoyuki has joined #sysapps 05:04:30 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 05:06:58 JINGWANG-QI_ has joined #sysapps 05:07:46 jehoochen__ has joined #sysapps 05:10:41 rsleevi has left #sysapps 05:15:46 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 05:16:24 nkic has joined #sysapps 05:17:10 m4nu has joined #sysapps 05:19:11 marcosc has joined #sysapps 05:22:49 Takahiro has joined #sysapps 05:25:17 ijongcheol has joined #sysapps 05:31:54 mete has left #sysapps 05:33:46 JonathanJ1 has joined #sysapps 05:38:51 dsr has joined #sysapps 05:40:11 chaals has joined #sysapps 05:40:33 genelian has joined #sysapps 05:41:49 hsinyi has joined #sysapps 05:43:20 chaals has left #sysapps 05:44:45 myakura has joined #sysapps 05:45:19 razybon has joined #sysapps 05:45:34 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 05:45:47 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 05:46:04 kotakagi has joined #sysapps 05:46:46 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 05:52:44 Toshiya_ has joined #sysapps 05:53:38 wonsuk has joined #sysapps 05:54:09 ijongcheol has joined #sysapps 05:56:00 virginie has joined #sysapps 05:57:01 saki has joined #sysapps 05:57:20 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 05:58:35 emalasky has joined #sysapps 05:59:58 Marcus_Altman has joined #sysapps 06:02:14 mounir_ has joined #sysapps 06:02:18 Claes has joined #sysapps 06:02:51 zakim, dial Wuzhou_Guest 06:03:01 ito has joined #sysapps 06:03:03 Zakim has joined #sysapps 06:03:10 zakim, dial Wuzhou_Guest 06:03:10 sorry, dsr, I don't know what conference this is 06:03:33 zakim, this is 7972 06:03:33 sorry, dsr, I do not see a conference named '7972' in progress or scheduled at this time 06:03:49 richt has joined #sysapps 06:03:51 zakim, make room for 6 for 240m 06:03:51 I don't understand 'make room for 6 for 240m', dsr 06:03:56 emalasky1 has joined #sysapps 06:04:28 zakim, room for 6 for 240m 06:04:28 I don't understand 'room for 6 for 240m', dsr 06:04:55 jinsong has joined #sysapps 06:05:01 saki has joined #sysapps 06:05:40 zakim, room for 6 for 240m 06:05:40 I don't understand 'room for 6 for 240m', dsr 06:06:13 zakim, room for 6 for 240 m 06:06:13 I don't understand 'room for 6 for 240 m', dsr 06:07:06 Yes, the passcode is not accepted 06:07:33 zakim, space for 6 people at 06:07Z for 240 06:07:33 I don't understand 'space for 6 people at 06:07Z for 240', dsr 06:07:39 zakim, space for 6 people at 06:07Z for 240m 06:07:39 I don't understand 'space for 6 people at 06:07Z for 240m', dsr 06:09:15 zakim is there room for 6 at 06:10Z for 240 06:09:24 zakim, is there room for 6 at 06:10Z for 240 06:09:24 I don't understand 'is there room for 6 at 06:10Z for 240', dsr 06:10:39 zakim, space for 6 at 01:00 for 240m 06:10:39 I don't understand 'space for 6 at 01:00 for 240m', dsr 06:10:43 zakim, call Wutong_West 06:10:43 sorry, mounir_, I don't know what conference this is 06:11:15 jehoochen__ has joined #sysapps 06:11:41 MichaelH has joined #sysapps 06:11:45 zakim, space for 6 at 01:12 06:11:45 I don't understand 'space for 6 at 01:12', dsr 06:12:09 zakim, is there space for 6 at 01:12 for 240m 06:12:09 I don't understand 'is there space for 6 at 01:12 for 240m', dsr 06:12:18 minami has joined #sysapps 06:14:32 emalasky has joined #sysapps 06:14:55 zakim, who is here? 06:14:55 has not yet started, dsr 06:14:56 On IRC I see emalasky, minami, MichaelH, jehoochen__, saki, jinsong, emalasky1, richt, Zakim, ito, Claes, mounir_, Marcus_Altman, JINGWANG-QI, virginie, ijongcheol, wonsuk, 06:14:56 ... Toshiya_, kotakagi, razybon, myakura, hsinyi, genelian, dsr, JonathanJ1 06:15:16 Yes, sorry. Unfortunately I don't have Skype installed on my job computer now. I can fix that now but it will take some minutes or so I assume. 06:15:22 gwm has joined #sysapps 06:15:40 zakim, this will be 7972 06:15:40 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, dsr 06:16:10 dsuwirya has joined #sysapps 06:17:17 Toshiya_ has left #sysapps 06:17:19 Yes, move on. I'll come back 06:17:25 Topic: Discussion on App Model for the Open Web in SysApps WG aspect 06:17:32 anssik: let see what I wrote 06:17:38 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sysapps/2013Oct/0010.html 06:17:45 jungkees has joined #sysapps 06:18:12 Max has joined #sysapps 06:18:18 anssik: the first assertion is this thread was that it might be hard to find consensus with sign apps 06:18:27 ... and even if we do, it wight not be interoperable 06:18:31 kkubota2 has joined #sysapps 06:18:37 ... so, what are we doing with un-signed app then? 06:19:51 Chan_ has joined #sysapps 06:20:24 ... we want to bring more clarity about the deliverables from this group? 06:20:36 richt: how is this different from what we discussed yesterday? 06:20:40 anssik: it's quite the same 06:21:12 richt: I agree that the ship is sailed 06:21:17 ... and that the packaging format is different 06:21:32 ... as I said yesterday, the focus of the group should be running the same code base 06:21:54 ... that's what I would like the objective to be 06:22:06 anssik: I would like to wake Jonas 06:22:09 ... what do you think? 06:22:28 sicking: it appears to be that we are not in a position where we actually can get implementations to change 06:22:50 ... I think that neither Chrome OS or Firefox OS will implement Widgets 06:23:03 ... we should focus on hosted apps via the manifest specification 06:23:17 ... I got very positive signals from various browser vendors 06:23:25 ... It won't be a complete runtime but a start 06:23:38 ... and hopefully we could evolve that to a real runtime overtime 06:24:16 sicking: We might have issues with APIs that require trusted code 06:24:24 AndroUser has joined #sysapps 06:24:26 q+ 06:24:46 sicking: Marcos thinks that we can just leave the security aside but I am not sure 06:25:03 ... it might work for TCP Sockets though 06:25:08 ... probably not for Telephony 06:26:27 Max has joined #sysapps 06:27:01 mounir_: I quite agree with Marcos that we can ignore how the permission is granted to an API as long as APIs are able to handle the different cases (as we discussed yesterday) 06:27:07 ... even for telephony I am not sure why this is needed 06:27:34 JINGWANG-QI_ has joined #sysapps 06:27:48 sicking: for telephony, I am not that optimistic because depending on your service provider, you might have different security levels 06:29:35 ywu_ has joined #sysapps 06:30:37 myakura has joined #sysapps 06:31:57 I have installed skype now. Can you give me a skype adress to call. 06:33:37 Ok, I'll call you 06:37:31 Max_ has joined #sysapps 06:37:35 I got about 10 hits on that address. Could you try to call me. claes.nilsson90 06:37:39 ywu_ has joined #sysapps 06:41:35 AndroUser2 has joined #sysapps 06:41:36 AndroUser2 has joined #sysapps 06:41:42 johnny has joined #sysapps 06:43:44 marcosc has joined #sysapps 06:44:34 m4nu has joined #sysapps 06:45:37 Is someone writing MoM 06:45:45 ? 06:46:02 scribenick: dsr 06:46:32 Jonas discusses signed apps as basis for access to trusted APIs 06:50:45 Rich: apps without access to the Internet could be granted permission to access trusted APIs with minimal risk of problems 06:51:33 http://richt.me/2013/05/exposing-privileged-apis-to-web-content/ 06:52:31 m4nu has joined #sysapps 06:53:33 Jonas: I don't know how I would create APIs that work in all 3 contexts (browser, disconnected and signed/trusted) 06:55:25 wjs has joined #sysapps 06:57:33 Anssi: asks Rich if developers are happy with the very restricted model proposed by Rich 06:57:58 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 06:58:15 Rich: anything written in the privileged state can only be read in the privileged state 07:00:35 Anssi: how will we sell this to developers? 07:01:05 Rich: let's focus on manifest for hosted apps, and installing apps on the home screen 07:01:53 Anssi: an installed app would sit between privileged and the drive by web 07:03:11 Rich: elevating an app's privileges is hard and is not how the web works. 07:03:17 zolkis has joined #sysapps 07:03:57 jehoochen_ has joined #sysapps 07:04:04 Jonas: for each API we're designing, we need to pick the security model it runs in 07:04:08 saki has joined #sysapps 07:05:05 ... we should stick the the known security models: the regular web, and the signed/trusted 07:05:18 s/the the/to the/ 07:05:58 Jonas: we don't need to pick "one" security model, but for each API we need to be clear which security model applies 07:06:45 Anssi: can we open the SysApps home page please (on the projector) 07:07:25 ... task scheduler is okay the for the Web 07:07:57 ... contacts, messaging, telephony, raw sockets are all for the signed context 07:08:30 For phase 2, bluetooth signed? 07:09:11 Jonas: Mozilla doesn't even expose bluetooth to signed apps as yet, but will do so eventually 07:12:04 byungjung__ has joined #sysapps 07:12:57 saki has joined #sysapps 07:13:11 Mounir: our ideas on security models will evolve over time, and this will mean revisiting API design 07:13:47 gwm has joined #sysapps 07:14:19 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 07:14:43 saki_ has joined #sysapps 07:14:48 scribenick: mounir_ 07:14:53 Topic: Raw Sockets API 07:15:01 Slide from Claes: https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/u/0/?ui=2&ik=53293ca563&view=att&th=14247edd8d03c71d&attid=0.1&disp=inline&safe=1&zw&saduie=AG9B_P_9ZyqSId_uZvO2K-Bes8iX&sadet=1384236110159&sads=PJAmCpe6b_QcGc9CubXtjoytRgE&sadssc=1 07:15:20 Claes: first, the name of the API might change 07:15:21 johnny_ has joined #sysapps 07:15:44 ... a summary of what we have been doing since the last F2F 07:15:54 johnny has joined #sysapps 07:16:26 ... 07:16:32 ... there are two outstanding issues 07:16:43 ... one was raised by Marcos 07:16:57 ... the node community said that the specification should be based on the Stream API 07:17:05 ... and I have made a presentation on this proposal 07:17:40 Claes: slide 2, the proposal is that it should be based on the Streams API but this would be a significant re-design of the Raw Sockets API 07:17:45 ... why doing that? 07:17:54 ... we would be using a general standardize solution 07:18:02 ... for things like buffering and backpressure 07:18:09 Toshiya_ has joined #sysapps 07:18:19 ... there is also in the work with streams, a solution for piping a source stream with a destination stream 07:18:23 ... which is a common UC for a socket api 07:18:39 ... slide 4, there are two activities for the Streams API 07:18:52 ... one is a W3C Streams API and a WHATWG specification 07:19:06 ... there is a GitHub link that I will patch in the IRC channel 07:19:09 https://github.com/whatwg/streams 07:19:33 Claes: If you look at those proposals, you will see that they are very different 07:19:38 ... hopefully, they will align 07:20:03 Claes: slide 5, the Streams API deals with similar issues than the Raw Sockets API 07:20:26 ... it is trying to keep a simple API for developers that do not lose data or overflow buffers 07:20:39 ... slide 6, we talked about stream producers 07:20:57 ... slide 7, stream consumers, that read and act on a stream object 07:21:06 ijongcheol has joined #sysapps 07:21:11 ... example or that is Web Audio 07:21:27 ... next slide is the push based data sources requirements for a stream api 07:22:17 Claes: now, requirements for write 07:22:30 ... it includes buffering 07:23:04 ... 07:23:24 Takahiro has joined #sysapps 07:23:37 sicking: we also need to deal with the fact that TCP Socket can be upgraded to SSL 07:23:46 ... and the interaction that has with Stream 07:25:25 < Claes' Skype got disconnected > 07:25:40 sicking: 07:27:06 Claes: we do not have a solution, it is good that you pointed that problem so we can try to find a solution 07:27:09 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 07:27:17 Claes: so... slide 10, piping 07:28:03 ywu__ has joined #sysapps 07:28:17 ... slides 11, 12, 13 - they show extremely preliminary interfaces 07:28:47 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 07:29:11 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 07:30:13 Claes: questions? 07:30:43 anssik: I am looking at the status of the Streams proposal 07:30:54 maltman_ has joined #sysapps 07:30:57 ... there is a GitHub readme file but what is the other one? 07:31:13 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm 07:31:28 anssik: is the W3C spec at LC now? 07:31:37 Claes: the proposal gots many comments 07:31:46 ... so I think they will postpone the LC 07:31:55 anssik: do you know what's the implementation status of those proposals? 07:32:00 Claes: I do not know 07:32:13 sicking: stream is going to take a long time 07:32:37 anssik: I guess the question is whether we want to base our work on top of W3C experimental work? 07:32:46 Claes: I agree with Jonas, Streams will take a long time 07:32:57 ... but it seems to have a strong potentieal 07:33:04 s/potentieal/potential/ 07:33:32 Claes: I do not know if we have made a strong decision whether we would be using the Stream API but we should investigate 07:33:39 ... they are working on the same problems 07:33:59 anssik: I think we (Intel) have an implementation 07:34:01 Chan_ has joined #sysapps 07:34:18 anssik: there were issues but there were already addressed by the Mozilla Network folks 07:34:41 ... I think since then you addressed them 07:35:12 Claes: it is very nice to hear that you have an implementation 07:35:18 ... I would like to see that 07:35:25 anssik: I will talk to you more in the following weeks 07:37:57 marcosc has joined #sysapps 07:38:52 jonas: streams might take a year to stabilize 07:39:29 Anssi 07:40:35 Anssi: for Tizen we may need something sooner, but we are probably happy to follow the streams approach 07:41:23 Toshiya_ has joined #sysapps 07:41:43 ... we should keep a stable snapshot on the current approach as a precaution. 07:42:58 ijongcheol has joined #sysapps 07:44:51 Jonas: streams are complicated and it will take a long time for people to reach a consensus. 07:45:19 tantek has joined #sysapps 07:45:42 Anssi: I propose we progress both approaches. 07:46:02 +1 07:46:48 RESOLUTION: the group will continue investigating using Stream for the Raw Sockets API 07:47:07 richt has joined #sysapps 07:47:31 RESOLUTION: the current state of the API (without Stream) should be published as another WD 07:47:54 ACTION: Claes will publish another WD for the Raw Sockets API that is not based on Streams 07:48:18 Anders has joined #sysapps 07:48:27 hmin has joined #sysapps 07:49:53 Present+ Claes_Nilsson 07:50:27 slightlyoff has joined #sysapps 07:50:42 ywuu has joined #sysapps 07:51:03 kotakagi has joined #sysapps 07:53:56 m4nu has joined #sysapps 07:55:15 JINGWANG-QI_ has joined #sysapps 08:00:30 Takahiro has joined #sysapps 08:00:36 JINGWANG-QI has joined #sysapps 08:07:14 Claes has joined #sysapps 08:08:00 JINGWANG-QI_ has joined #sysapps 08:11:29 wjs has joined #sysapps 08:13:14 mounir_ has joined #sysapps 08:16:11 Could you call me again on Skype claes.nilsson90 08:16:30 dsr has joined #sysapps 08:16:49 rrsagent, set logs public 08:16:59 rrsagent, make minutes 08:16:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-sysapps-minutes.html dsr 08:17:20 gwm has joined #sysapps 08:17:26 johnny has joined #sysapps 08:18:24 Dave, Could you call me again on Skype claes.nilsson90 08:19:30 Ok 08:20:15 JonathanJ1 has joined #sysapps 08:20:28 Dave is no longer in the SysApps meeting. Could anyone else call me on Skype, claes.nilsson90? 08:24:06 ito has joined #sysapps 08:24:11 maltman has joined #sysapps 08:24:53 scribenick: mounir_ 08:24:57 Topic: Next F2F 08:25:10 mounir_: I propose that we do not schedule a F2F for the moment 08:25:35 Max has joined #sysapps 08:25:36 ... we have work to do before having a new F2F so lets do that work and decide when we meet when it is on its way 08:25:37 jehoochen_ has joined #sysapps 08:26:09 anssik: I agree, unless some people prefer 3 months notice, something like 1-2 months should be enough 08:26:21 anssik: what about doing a F2F with another group? like WebApps? 08:26:23 what are the next steps? any tentative deadlines on actions? 08:26:54 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 08:26:59 anssik: +1 08:27:04 wonsuk: we could see if we could meet with WebApps, it could be good for us as well 08:27:17 wonsuk: I could check that with the chair of WebApps 08:27:34 nkic has joined #sysapps 08:27:43 hmin has joined #sysapps 08:27:46 ACTION: wonsuk will ask the chairs of WebApps regarding their next F2F 08:27:54 Toshiya has joined #sysapps 08:29:07 mounir_: regarding the actions, I will send an email with a summary and open bugs 08:29:19 ... but I do not think it is useful to have deadlines, people miss deadlines anyway 08:29:19 Zakim has left #sysapps 08:29:40 Zakim has joined #sysapps 08:29:42 m4nu has joined #sysapps 08:29:59 jungkees has joined #sysapps 08:30:00 rssagent, generate minutes 08:31:03 mounir_: F2F closed, thank you everyone 08:31:17 rrsagent, generate minutes 08:31:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-sysapps-minutes.html mounir_ 08:32:22 marcosc has joined #sysapps 08:33:11 JonathanJ has joined #sysapps 08:34:05 richt has joined #sysapps 08:34:50 johnny_ has joined #sysapps 08:36:59 nkic_ has joined #sysapps 08:43:08 jehoochen_ has joined #sysapps 08:44:38 johnny has joined #sysapps 08:44:50 marcosc has joined #sysapps 08:50:45 kotakagi has left #sysapps 08:51:02 Tomoyuki 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