14:00:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
14:00:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/10/28-dpub-irc
14:00:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:00:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dpub
14:00:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
14:00:56 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:00:56 <trackbot> Date: 28 October 2013
14:00:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 60 minutes
14:22:23 <liam> liam has joined #dpub
14:35:57 <fjh> fjh has joined #dpub
14:49:18 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #DPUB
14:50:22 <gcapiel> gcapiel has joined #dpub
14:55:06 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2013Oct/0045.html
14:55:15 <ivan> Chair: Madi
14:55:35 <ivan> regrets: Markus, Vladimir, Brady
14:56:29 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM has now started
14:56:35 <Zakim> + +1.518.669.aaaa
14:57:39 <madi> madi has joined #dpub
14:58:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
14:58:25 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub
14:58:34 <Zakim> +madi
14:58:52 <Zakim> + +1.505.665.aabb
14:58:57 <Zakim> +Tzviya
14:59:01 <azaroth> Zakim, aabb is azaroth
14:59:01 <Zakim> +azaroth; got it
14:59:11 <ivan> zakim, code?
14:59:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
14:59:19 <Zakim> +BillKasdorf
14:59:25 <Zakim> + +1.415.577.aacc
14:59:34 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:59:39 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:59:44 <fjh> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:59:44 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
14:59:49 <fjh> Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
15:00:08 <tzviya> scribe: tzviya
15:00:31 <tzviya> aacc is gcapiel
15:00:35 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
15:00:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.518.669.aaaa, madi, azaroth, Tzviya, BillKasdorf, +1.415.577.aacc, Ivan, fjh
15:00:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see tzviya, Bill_Kasdorf, madi, gcapiel, azaroth, fjh, liam, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot, plinss
15:00:39 <ivan> zakim, aacc is gcapiel
15:00:39 <Zakim> +gcapiel; got it
15:01:10 <tzviya> zakin, aaaa is jean kaplansky
15:01:19 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #dpub
15:01:23 <tzviya> zakim, aaaa is jean kaplansky
15:01:23 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aaaa is jean kaplansky', tzviya
15:01:53 <Zakim> +dauwhe
15:01:57 <fjh> zakim, aaa is jean_kaplansky
15:01:57 <Zakim> sorry, fjh, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
15:02:08 <fjh> zakim, aaaa is jean_kaplansky
15:02:08 <Zakim> +jean_kaplansky; got it
15:02:14 <ivan> zakim, aaaa is jean
15:02:14 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:02:15 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
15:02:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see jean_kaplansky, madi, azaroth, Tzviya, BillKasdorf, gcapiel (muted), Ivan, fjh, dauwhe
15:02:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see dauwhe, tzviya, Bill_Kasdorf, madi, gcapiel, azaroth, fjh, liam, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot, plinss
15:02:42 <Zakim> + +1.609.216.aadd
15:03:05 <Zakim> -gcapiel
15:03:14 <Zakim> +gcapiel
15:03:28 <ivan> zakim, aadd is laura
15:03:28 <Zakim> +laura; got it
15:04:12 <Zakim> +Bert
15:04:15 <tzviya> madi opens the meeting
15:04:20 <Bert> Bert has joined #dpub
15:04:30 <ivan> topic: intro, admin
15:04:39 <tzviya> approval of last week's minutes
15:04:46 <st> st has joined #dpub
15:04:47 <tzviya> ...https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dpub/2013-10-21
15:04:51 <tzviya> approved
15:04:53 <Zakim> +Sharad_Garg
15:04:55 <tzviya> next item
15:04:58 <ivan> topic: new members?
15:05:01 <Sharad> Sharad has joined #dpub
15:05:04 <tzviya> madi: new members
15:05:13 <tzviya> laura fowler
15:05:51 <tzviya> Laura: work in enterprise architecture at educational testing serice
15:06:02 <tzviya> ...with mark haaden and others
15:06:12 <Zakim> -gcapiel
15:06:15 <Zakim> +Suzanne_Taylor
15:06:16 <tzviya> madi: ETS is already a member of W3C
15:06:24 <ivan> s/haaden/hakkinen/
15:06:25 <tzviya> ..other new members?
15:06:33 <tzviya> thank, ivan
15:06:44 <ivan> Topic: new use cases
15:07:19 <tzviya> madi: bert sent update from MathML WG, please summarize
15:07:37 <tzviya> Bert: was a UC about interactive use of mathematics
15:07:55 <Zakim> +gcapiel
15:08:05 <tzviya> ...MathML WG started writing note about interactivity, example: fill-in blank in math
15:08:18 <tzviya> ...this was a note that never got published
15:08:31 <tzviya> ...added to the comments of the use case
15:08:40 <tzviya> ...uses <input> from HTML in MathML
15:08:57 <Zakim> -gcapiel
15:08:58 <tzviya> ...if anyone wants to follow up, happy to discuss
15:09:03 <ivan> q?
15:09:12 <Laura_Fowler> Laura_Fowler has joined #dpub
15:09:25 <tzviya> bert: see note in http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/MathML_UC#MathML_2
15:09:39 <tzviya> suzanne: new use case for a11y
15:09:45 <tzviya> ...mirroring resources
15:10:33 <madi> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Mirror_Sources_UC
15:10:38 <tzviya> ...important for accessible resource to match opther resources
15:10:47 <tzviya> ...simple example is pagination
15:11:14 <Zakim> +gcapiel
15:11:19 <tzviya> ...audio transcripts have a similar issue
15:11:41 <tzviya> student must know which transcript s/he is responsible to study
15:11:56 <Zakim> -gcapiel
15:11:57 <tzviya> ...this extends to markup as well
15:12:18 <ivan> q?
15:12:38 <tzviya> ...if a resource is a bullet list in resource, must be bullet list in both, not alpha list in one and bullet list in another
15:12:42 <tzviya> q+
15:12:50 <ivan> ack tzviya
15:13:16 <tzviya> tzviya" this will overlap the behavioral adaptive content group
15:13:33 <ivan> s/"/:/
15:13:39 <tzviya> madi: suzanne spoke about timed tests, anything to add?
15:14:04 <Zakim> +gcapiel
15:14:18 <tzviya> suzanne: not now, but laura may have something to add once she reads
15:14:21 <tzviya> q-
15:14:44 <ivan> Topic: tpac agenda topics
15:15:11 <tzviya> madi: logistics for TPAC should be settled by now
15:15:23 <tzviya> ...posted informal list by now
15:15:38 <tzviya> ..one topic not on list was pagination, but that will be discussed
15:16:08 <tzviya> ...pagination is on the agenda
15:16:36 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:17:38 <tzviya> ,,,fonts and typography potential agenda item, but need to discuss with ???
15:18:05 <tzviya> s/,,,/...
15:18:07 <ivan> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:18:37 <tzviya> madi: inforgraphics is a topic that was suggested by Tzviya
15:18:52 <tzviya> tzviya: this is not a topic I am qualified to lead
15:19:15 <gcapiel> gcapiel has joined #dpub
15:19:52 <tzviya> madi: behavioral adaptive content is another topic
15:20:49 <tzviya> tzviya: this is a topic to discuss, but I will not be at TPAC and was not able to work on this much last week (no computer)
15:20:54 <dauwhe> q+
15:21:07 <tzviya> ...will call in to as much of TPAC as I can
15:21:22 <tzviya> Ivan: let me and markus know what availability is
15:21:47 <ivan> ack dauwhe
15:22:03 <tzviya> BillK: typogaphy overlaps a lot with pagination and we may want to combine the two
15:22:15 <dauwhe> q-
15:22:17 <ivan> q+
15:22:19 <tzviya> dauwhe: keeping an open mind about what pagination means
15:22:49 <tzviya> ivan: is it correct that some of the issues are more related to HTML than CSS?
15:22:53 <tzviya> tzviya: yes
15:23:33 <tzviya> Ivan: we are trying to get reps from CSS so once we have your schedule we will try to synchronize with them
15:23:47 <tzviya> madi: another topic is security. sharad?
15:24:04 <tzviya> sharad: what would the group like to see? this will help to prepare
15:24:13 <fjh> q+
15:24:31 <tzviya> ...I have experience and I will prepare based on expectations and requirements
15:24:39 <ivan> ack ivan
15:25:16 <tzviya> ivan: discussion over last few days has shown that once someone provokes email discussion, the list wakes up
15:25:54 <tzviya> sharad:  I will send a list of question related to ebooks and content distribution
15:26:08 <tzviya> ..is it possible to talk to ivan off line as well?
15:26:17 <tzviya> ivan: yes, but not today
15:26:18 <ivan> ack fjh
15:26:37 <tzviya> sharad: this may not take 3 hours
15:27:11 <tzviya> fjh: what is specific to ebooks vs HTML5? what is offline?
15:27:18 <tzviya> Sharad: this will be addressed
15:27:45 <fjh> s/what is offline/Are there any specific security concerns related to offline operation?/
15:28:02 <fjh> what should we consider behind same origin policies?
15:28:07 <fjh> s/behind/beyond/
15:28:12 <tzviya> made: question for ivan: should we explore discussions from list at TPAC?
15:28:18 <fjh> q?
15:28:19 <tzviya> ...such as spacing issue
15:28:36 <tzviya> ivan: this is in some sense a typographic issue
15:28:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:28:44 <dauwhe> q+
15:28:58 <tzviya> ...we can pick them up in task forces and see where they go
15:29:13 <ivan>  ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:29:30 <tzviya> billK: one observation: the most salient issue that came out of that discussion is the cultural differences
15:29:56 <tzviya> ...not just language differences. This will avoid eliminating options
15:30:01 <ivan> ack dauwhe
15:30:16 <tzviya> Dauwhe: this is a good topic for CSSWG
15:30:40 <tzviya> ...because there is a text replacement option in CSS, would like to push to get that back into CSS
15:30:54 <Bert> q+ to ask how authors currently do (or do not) type the spaces.
15:31:09 <tzviya> Ivan: I contacted Koji about this because he [provided information that I didn't know about
15:31:23 <tzviya> ...I encouraged him to join this meeting, but there are time differences
15:31:24 <dauwhe> s/because there is/because there was/
15:31:34 <tzviya> madi: will koji be at TPAC?
15:31:44 <ivan> ack Bert
15:31:44 <Zakim> Bert, you wanted to ask how authors currently do (or do not) type the spaces.
15:31:53 <tzviya> ivan: yes Koji will be at CSS
15:32:34 <tzviya> bert: what is the input? What does it look like? where are spaces? This would inform CSS WG
15:32:49 <tzviya> ...Does it differ across cultures/languages
15:33:27 <tzviya> madi: this would be very informative. Does such a thing exist
15:33:49 <tzviya> billK: this assumes author = writer
15:34:38 <tzviya> ...a lot will depend on what is available on keyboard. Thin space and nbsp are not available to authors
15:35:18 <tzviya> ivan: true, but I see regular spaces before punctuation in french
15:35:30 <tzviya> BillK: practices often change
15:35:35 <tzviya> q+
15:35:40 <ivan> ack tzviya
15:36:28 <tzviya> tzviya
15:36:53 <tzviya> : there are also differences across segments of the industry
15:37:15 <ivan> s/:/tzviya:/
15:37:20 <tzviya> ...indentation of paragraphs is more common in trade
15:37:58 <tzviya> ...non-indented paragraphs and extra space between paragraphs is more common in professional books
15:39:01 <ivan> Resolution: topics for TPAC: (1) Pagination, Dave (2) Infographics, but chair is needed (3) font/typography, Vlad (4) Behavioral adaption, Tzviya (5) Security, Sharad
15:40:00 <tzviya> topic: metadata
15:40:13 <ivan> Topic: Metadata task force?
15:40:38 <tzviya> madi:Bill, please introduce the topic
15:41:01 <tzviya> billK: do we need a WG on metadata or are the features of HTML and CSS sufficient?
15:41:13 <ivan> s/WG/Task Force/
15:41:26 <tzviya> ...be mindful of the types of metadata: rights, subject, etc.
15:41:45 <tzviya> ...publishers increasingly want to include this at a more granular level
15:42:12 <tzviya> ...we have done this by adding <div class ="x">
15:42:22 <tzviya> ...there is also microdata and RDFa
15:42:31 <tzviya> ...is there a need to change W3C specs?
15:42:50 <tzviya> ...we do not want to discuss individual vocabularies
15:43:07 <tzviya> ...are there sufficient vocabularies?
15:43:38 <tzviya> ...ivan asked would it be useful to create a clearing house for these vocabularies?
15:43:49 <gcapiel> gcapiel has joined #dpub
15:43:52 <gcapiel> +q
15:44:10 <tzviya> ...for example, book publishers are usually aware of ONIX, but not aware of PRISM (used in magazines)
15:44:32 <tzviya> ...neither magazines nor books are usually aware of MARC, TEI, etc
15:44:37 <ivan> q+
15:44:40 <ivan> q-
15:44:46 <azaroth> +q
15:44:48 <tzviya> ...what is in scope? would it be helpful?
15:45:07 <tzviya> ivan: we have to be careful about terminology
15:45:34 <tzviya> ...a WG would be separate from this IG (within W3C)
15:46:01 <tzviya> ...it is a question about whether this group could answer with a yes/no
15:46:05 <tzviya> ...let
15:46:17 <tzviya> ..us define clearing house
15:46:35 <tzviya> ...we could define each vocabulary and how they relate to one another
15:46:39 <ivan> http://lov.okfn.org/dataset/lov/
15:47:05 <tzviya> ...this link is an example of linked vocabilaries
15:47:36 <tzviya> ...the other possibility is to create formal mapping between these vocabularies
15:48:02 <tzviya> ...should this be done by this IG or by organizations that host these vocabularies?
15:48:07 <ivan> q?
15:48:28 <ivan> ack gcapiel
15:48:46 <fjh> zakim, who is making noise?
15:48:58 <Zakim> fjh, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gcapiel (31%)
15:49:28 <tzviya> gcapiel: I've been working with Bill on enhancing vocabularies like schema.org, a search vocab
15:49:45 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/mediaont-10/ somewhat similar work done at W3C in the past
15:49:51 <tzviya> ...it may be that what we need for publishing will not move fast enough
15:49:58 <Zakim> -jean_kaplansky
15:50:17 <Zakim> +jean_kaplansky
15:50:38 <tzviya> ...schema.org will not address these issues in time
15:51:04 <tzviya> ...this issue needs to be addressed
15:51:06 <ivan> zakim, mute gcapiel
15:51:06 <Zakim> gcapiel should now be muted
15:51:26 <tzviya> BillK: Gerardo's points are excellent
15:51:47 <tzviya> ...this is not just metadata about the document, but metadata within the document
15:51:55 <ivan> ack azaroth
15:51:56 <fjh> q+
15:52:39 <tzviya> azaroth: love/hate relationship with metadata standards. We need to be careful not to disappear down a hole
15:53:12 <tzviya> ...we should point to standards, not try to incorporate them all
15:53:24 <dauwhe> http://xkcd.com/927/
15:53:26 <tzviya> ...should not try to provide crosswalsk
15:53:42 <ivan> ack fjh
15:53:58 <tzviya> s/crosswalsk/crosswalks
15:54:16 <tzviya> fjh: please summarize what gerardo said
15:54:31 <azaroth> +1
15:54:35 <gcapiel> gcapiel has joined #dpub
15:54:44 <tzviya> billK: not only are there many standards, but they are constantly evolving
15:55:27 <tzviya> ivan: if we decide to set up a clearing house then we have to be conscious of the fact that the content is dynamic
15:55:48 <tzviya> ...and the community has to be able to maintain it even after the WG is gone
15:55:55 <gcapiel> Q+
15:56:06 <ivan> zakim, unmute gcapiel
15:56:07 <Zakim> gcapiel should no longer be muted
15:56:08 <tzviya> fjh: I would be concerned about ongoing maintenance
15:56:15 <ivan> ack gcapiel
15:56:47 <tzviya> gcapiel: i think there are a lot of metadata standards, and I'd hate to reinvent the wheel
15:57:06 <tzviya> ...we need to make sure it's clear how to use existing standards within HTML
15:57:08 <ivan> q+
15:57:43 <tzviya> ...in terms of ongoing maintenance, that is an issue if W3C takes on metadata work
15:57:55 <Zakim> -jean_kaplansky
15:58:03 <tzviya> ...it might make sense to point to existing specs
15:58:22 <ivan> ack ivan
15:58:32 <liam> liam has joined #dpub
15:58:34 <tzviya> BillK: perhaps the goal should be advising about how to make metadata specs interoperable
15:59:06 <tzviya> ivan: fully agree with gerardo that defining a metadata spec is not something that we want to do
15:59:17 <tzviya> ...there is an intersection with annotations
15:59:24 <azaroth> I agree with Ivan :)
15:59:53 <tzviya> ...in that we have to a way define a URI, a way to uniquely identify something
16:00:14 <tzviya> ...IDPF has a separate document on this, but not sure that it covers what we need
16:00:23 <fjh> is that a TAG discussion topic?
16:00:37 <tzviya> ...we may want to address this ourselves or ask W3C to address this
16:00:40 <azaroth> (Also agree that the IDPF work is currently insufficient for the DPUB IG's needs)
16:01:00 <tzviya> ...W3C is setting up a group to address best practices for publishing on the web
16:01:12 <tzviya> ...this will include describing data
16:01:27 <tzviya> ...and will be of interest for this group as well
16:01:37 <tzviya> ...probably will begin in Dec
16:01:56 <tzviya> madi: conclusion seems to be that we don't need a task force
16:02:03 <tzviya> ivan: i don't agree
16:02:23 <tzviya> ...I think we may need a task force, but it's different from other task forces
16:02:44 <gcapiel> I agree
16:02:57 <azaroth> Continue to agree with Ivan
16:03:12 <tzviya> ..this task force will research and recommend to W3C where to explore further
16:03:14 <fjh> thanks
16:03:17 <Zakim> -Sharad_Garg
16:03:18 <Zakim> -gcapiel
16:03:18 <Zakim> -Suzanne_Taylor
16:03:18 <Zakim> -BillKasdorf
16:03:18 <tzviya> BillK: makes sense
16:03:20 <Zakim> -madi
16:03:21 <Zakim> -dauwhe
16:03:21 <Zakim> -azaroth
16:03:21 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:03:22 <Zakim> -Tzviya
16:03:24 <Zakim> -Bert
16:03:27 <Zakim> -fjh
16:03:29 <Zakim> -laura
16:03:30 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM has ended
16:03:30 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.518.669.aaaa, madi, +1.505.665.aabb, Tzviya, azaroth, BillKasdorf, +1.415.577.aacc, Ivan, fjh, gcapiel, dauwhe, jean_kaplansky, +1.609.216.aadd, laura, Bert,
16:03:30 <Zakim> ... Sharad_Garg, Suzanne_Taylor
16:03:37 <ivan> zakim, who is there?
16:03:37 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ivan.
16:03:44 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:03:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/28-dpub-minutes.html ivan
16:04:03 <tzviya> Madi: we defined what this task force will not do. Will continue to define what the task force will fo
16:04:03 <ivan> trackbot, stop telcon
16:04:03 <trackbot> Sorry, ivan, I don't understand 'trackbot, stop telcon'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
16:04:11 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
16:04:11 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:04:11 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:04:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:04:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/28-dpub-minutes.html trackbot
16:04:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:04:20 <RRSAgent> I see no action items