IRC log of dpub on 2013-10-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:00:51 [RRSAgent]
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14:00:51 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/10/28-dpub-irc
14:00:53 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:00:53 [Zakim]
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14:00:55 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be dpub
14:00:56 [trackbot]
Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:00:56 [trackbot]
Date: 28 October 2013
14:00:56 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 60 minutes
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14:55:06 [ivan]
ivan has changed the topic to: agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2013Oct/0045.html
14:55:15 [ivan]
Chair: Madi
14:55:35 [ivan]
regrets: Markus, Vladimir, Brady
14:56:29 [Zakim]
SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM has now started
14:56:35 [Zakim]
+ +1.518.669.aaaa
14:57:39 [madi]
madi has joined #dpub
14:58:12 [Bill_Kasdorf]
Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
14:58:25 [tzviya]
tzviya has joined #dpub
14:58:34 [Zakim]
+madi
14:58:52 [Zakim]
+ +1.505.665.aabb
14:58:57 [Zakim]
+Tzviya
14:59:01 [azaroth]
Zakim, aabb is azaroth
14:59:01 [Zakim]
+azaroth; got it
14:59:11 [ivan]
zakim, code?
14:59:11 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
14:59:19 [Zakim]
+BillKasdorf
14:59:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.577.aacc
14:59:34 [Zakim]
+Ivan
14:59:39 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:59:44 [fjh]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:59:44 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
14:59:49 [fjh]
Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
15:00:08 [tzviya]
scribe: tzviya
15:00:31 [tzviya]
aacc is gcapiel
15:00:35 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
15:00:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.518.669.aaaa, madi, azaroth, Tzviya, BillKasdorf, +1.415.577.aacc, Ivan, fjh
15:00:37 [Zakim]
On IRC I see tzviya, Bill_Kasdorf, madi, gcapiel, azaroth, fjh, liam, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot, plinss
15:00:39 [ivan]
zakim, aacc is gcapiel
15:00:39 [Zakim]
+gcapiel; got it
15:01:10 [tzviya]
zakin, aaaa is jean kaplansky
15:01:19 [dauwhe]
dauwhe has joined #dpub
15:01:23 [tzviya]
zakim, aaaa is jean kaplansky
15:01:23 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'aaaa is jean kaplansky', tzviya
15:01:53 [Zakim]
+dauwhe
15:01:57 [fjh]
zakim, aaa is jean_kaplansky
15:01:57 [Zakim]
sorry, fjh, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
15:02:08 [fjh]
zakim, aaaa is jean_kaplansky
15:02:08 [Zakim]
+jean_kaplansky; got it
15:02:14 [ivan]
zakim, aaaa is jean
15:02:14 [Zakim]
sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:02:15 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
15:02:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jean_kaplansky, madi, azaroth, Tzviya, BillKasdorf, gcapiel (muted), Ivan, fjh, dauwhe
15:02:18 [Zakim]
On IRC I see dauwhe, tzviya, Bill_Kasdorf, madi, gcapiel, azaroth, fjh, liam, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot, plinss
15:02:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.609.216.aadd
15:03:05 [Zakim]
-gcapiel
15:03:14 [Zakim]
+gcapiel
15:03:28 [ivan]
zakim, aadd is laura
15:03:28 [Zakim]
+laura; got it
15:04:12 [Zakim]
+Bert
15:04:15 [tzviya]
madi opens the meeting
15:04:20 [Bert]
Bert has joined #dpub
15:04:30 [ivan]
topic: intro, admin
15:04:39 [tzviya]
approval of last week's minutes
15:04:46 [st]
st has joined #dpub
15:04:47 [tzviya]
...https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dpub/2013-10-21
15:04:51 [tzviya]
approved
15:04:53 [Zakim]
+Sharad_Garg
15:04:55 [tzviya]
next item
15:04:58 [ivan]
topic: new members?
15:05:01 [Sharad]
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15:05:04 [tzviya]
madi: new members
15:05:13 [tzviya]
laura fowler
15:05:51 [tzviya]
Laura: work in enterprise architecture at educational testing serice
15:06:02 [tzviya]
...with mark haaden and others
15:06:12 [Zakim]
-gcapiel
15:06:15 [Zakim]
+Suzanne_Taylor
15:06:16 [tzviya]
madi: ETS is already a member of W3C
15:06:24 [ivan]
s/haaden/hakkinen/
15:06:25 [tzviya]
..other new members?
15:06:33 [tzviya]
thank, ivan
15:06:44 [ivan]
Topic: new use cases
15:07:19 [tzviya]
madi: bert sent update from MathML WG, please summarize
15:07:37 [tzviya]
Bert: was a UC about interactive use of mathematics
15:07:55 [Zakim]
+gcapiel
15:08:05 [tzviya]
...MathML WG started writing note about interactivity, example: fill-in blank in math
15:08:18 [tzviya]
...this was a note that never got published
15:08:31 [tzviya]
...added to the comments of the use case
15:08:40 [tzviya]
...uses <input> from HTML in MathML
15:08:57 [Zakim]
-gcapiel
15:08:58 [tzviya]
...if anyone wants to follow up, happy to discuss
15:09:03 [ivan]
q?
15:09:12 [Laura_Fowler]
Laura_Fowler has joined #dpub
15:09:25 [tzviya]
bert: see note in http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/MathML_UC#MathML_2
15:09:39 [tzviya]
suzanne: new use case for a11y
15:09:45 [tzviya]
...mirroring resources
15:10:33 [madi]
http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Mirror_Sources_UC
15:10:38 [tzviya]
...important for accessible resource to match opther resources
15:10:47 [tzviya]
...simple example is pagination
15:11:14 [Zakim]
+gcapiel
15:11:19 [tzviya]
...audio transcripts have a similar issue
15:11:41 [tzviya]
student must know which transcript s/he is responsible to study
15:11:56 [Zakim]
-gcapiel
15:11:57 [tzviya]
...this extends to markup as well
15:12:18 [ivan]
q?
15:12:38 [tzviya]
...if a resource is a bullet list in resource, must be bullet list in both, not alpha list in one and bullet list in another
15:12:42 [tzviya]
q+
15:12:50 [ivan]
ack tzviya
15:13:16 [tzviya]
tzviya" this will overlap the behavioral adaptive content group
15:13:33 [ivan]
s/"/:/
15:13:39 [tzviya]
madi: suzanne spoke about timed tests, anything to add?
15:14:04 [Zakim]
+gcapiel
15:14:18 [tzviya]
suzanne: not now, but laura may have something to add once she reads
15:14:21 [tzviya]
q-
15:14:44 [ivan]
Topic: tpac agenda topics
15:15:11 [tzviya]
madi: logistics for TPAC should be settled by now
15:15:23 [tzviya]
...posted informal list by now
15:15:38 [tzviya]
..one topic not on list was pagination, but that will be discussed
15:16:08 [tzviya]
...pagination is on the agenda
15:16:36 [Bill_Kasdorf]
q+
15:17:38 [tzviya]
,,,fonts and typography potential agenda item, but need to discuss with ???
15:18:05 [tzviya]
s/,,,/...
15:18:07 [ivan]
ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:18:37 [tzviya]
madi: inforgraphics is a topic that was suggested by Tzviya
15:18:52 [tzviya]
tzviya: this is not a topic I am qualified to lead
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15:19:52 [tzviya]
madi: behavioral adaptive content is another topic
15:20:49 [tzviya]
tzviya: this is a topic to discuss, but I will not be at TPAC and was not able to work on this much last week (no computer)
15:20:54 [dauwhe]
q+
15:21:07 [tzviya]
...will call in to as much of TPAC as I can
15:21:22 [tzviya]
Ivan: let me and markus know what availability is
15:21:47 [ivan]
ack dauwhe
15:22:03 [tzviya]
BillK: typogaphy overlaps a lot with pagination and we may want to combine the two
15:22:15 [dauwhe]
q-
15:22:17 [ivan]
q+
15:22:19 [tzviya]
dauwhe: keeping an open mind about what pagination means
15:22:49 [tzviya]
ivan: is it correct that some of the issues are more related to HTML than CSS?
15:22:53 [tzviya]
tzviya: yes
15:23:33 [tzviya]
Ivan: we are trying to get reps from CSS so once we have your schedule we will try to synchronize with them
15:23:47 [tzviya]
madi: another topic is security. sharad?
15:24:04 [tzviya]
sharad: what would the group like to see? this will help to prepare
15:24:13 [fjh]
q+
15:24:31 [tzviya]
...I have experience and I will prepare based on expectations and requirements
15:24:39 [ivan]
ack ivan
15:25:16 [tzviya]
ivan: discussion over last few days has shown that once someone provokes email discussion, the list wakes up
15:25:54 [tzviya]
sharad: I will send a list of question related to ebooks and content distribution
15:26:08 [tzviya]
..is it possible to talk to ivan off line as well?
15:26:17 [tzviya]
ivan: yes, but not today
15:26:18 [ivan]
ack fjh
15:26:37 [tzviya]
sharad: this may not take 3 hours
15:27:11 [tzviya]
fjh: what is specific to ebooks vs HTML5? what is offline?
15:27:18 [tzviya]
Sharad: this will be addressed
15:27:45 [fjh]
s/what is offline/Are there any specific security concerns related to offline operation?/
15:28:02 [fjh]
what should we consider behind same origin policies?
15:28:07 [fjh]
s/behind/beyond/
15:28:12 [tzviya]
made: question for ivan: should we explore discussions from list at TPAC?
15:28:18 [fjh]
q?
15:28:19 [tzviya]
...such as spacing issue
15:28:36 [tzviya]
ivan: this is in some sense a typographic issue
15:28:41 [Bill_Kasdorf]
q+
15:28:44 [dauwhe]
q+
15:28:58 [tzviya]
...we can pick them up in task forces and see where they go
15:29:13 [ivan]
ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:29:30 [tzviya]
billK: one observation: the most salient issue that came out of that discussion is the cultural differences
15:29:56 [tzviya]
...not just language differences. This will avoid eliminating options
15:30:01 [ivan]
ack dauwhe
15:30:16 [tzviya]
Dauwhe: this is a good topic for CSSWG
15:30:40 [tzviya]
...because there is a text replacement option in CSS, would like to push to get that back into CSS
15:30:54 [Bert]
q+ to ask how authors currently do (or do not) type the spaces.
15:31:09 [tzviya]
Ivan: I contacted Koji about this because he [provided information that I didn't know about
15:31:23 [tzviya]
...I encouraged him to join this meeting, but there are time differences
15:31:24 [dauwhe]
s/because there is/because there was/
15:31:34 [tzviya]
madi: will koji be at TPAC?
15:31:44 [ivan]
ack Bert
15:31:44 [Zakim]
Bert, you wanted to ask how authors currently do (or do not) type the spaces.
15:31:53 [tzviya]
ivan: yes Koji will be at CSS
15:32:34 [tzviya]
bert: what is the input? What does it look like? where are spaces? This would inform CSS WG
15:32:49 [tzviya]
...Does it differ across cultures/languages
15:33:27 [tzviya]
madi: this would be very informative. Does such a thing exist
15:33:49 [tzviya]
billK: this assumes author = writer
15:34:38 [tzviya]
...a lot will depend on what is available on keyboard. Thin space and nbsp are not available to authors
15:35:18 [tzviya]
ivan: true, but I see regular spaces before punctuation in french
15:35:30 [tzviya]
BillK: practices often change
15:35:35 [tzviya]
q+
15:35:40 [ivan]
ack tzviya
15:36:28 [tzviya]
tzviya
15:36:53 [tzviya]
: there are also differences across segments of the industry
15:37:15 [ivan]
s/:/tzviya:/
15:37:20 [tzviya]
...indentation of paragraphs is more common in trade
15:37:58 [tzviya]
...non-indented paragraphs and extra space between paragraphs is more common in professional books
15:39:01 [ivan]
Resolution: topics for TPAC: (1) Pagination, Dave (2) Infographics, but chair is needed (3) font/typography, Vlad (4) Behavioral adaption, Tzviya (5) Security, Sharad
15:40:00 [tzviya]
topic: metadata
15:40:13 [ivan]
Topic: Metadata task force?
15:40:38 [tzviya]
madi:Bill, please introduce the topic
15:41:01 [tzviya]
billK: do we need a WG on metadata or are the features of HTML and CSS sufficient?
15:41:13 [ivan]
s/WG/Task Force/
15:41:26 [tzviya]
...be mindful of the types of metadata: rights, subject, etc.
15:41:45 [tzviya]
...publishers increasingly want to include this at a more granular level
15:42:12 [tzviya]
...we have done this by adding <div class ="x">
15:42:22 [tzviya]
...there is also microdata and RDFa
15:42:31 [tzviya]
...is there a need to change W3C specs?
15:42:50 [tzviya]
...we do not want to discuss individual vocabularies
15:43:07 [tzviya]
...are there sufficient vocabularies?
15:43:38 [tzviya]
...ivan asked would it be useful to create a clearing house for these vocabularies?
15:43:49 [gcapiel]
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15:43:52 [gcapiel]
+q
15:44:10 [tzviya]
...for example, book publishers are usually aware of ONIX, but not aware of PRISM (used in magazines)
15:44:32 [tzviya]
...neither magazines nor books are usually aware of MARC, TEI, etc
15:44:37 [ivan]
q+
15:44:40 [ivan]
q-
15:44:46 [azaroth]
+q
15:44:48 [tzviya]
...what is in scope? would it be helpful?
15:45:07 [tzviya]
ivan: we have to be careful about terminology
15:45:34 [tzviya]
...a WG would be separate from this IG (within W3C)
15:46:01 [tzviya]
...it is a question about whether this group could answer with a yes/no
15:46:05 [tzviya]
...let
15:46:17 [tzviya]
..us define clearing house
15:46:35 [tzviya]
...we could define each vocabulary and how they relate to one another
15:46:39 [ivan]
http://lov.okfn.org/dataset/lov/
15:47:05 [tzviya]
...this link is an example of linked vocabilaries
15:47:36 [tzviya]
...the other possibility is to create formal mapping between these vocabularies
15:48:02 [tzviya]
...should this be done by this IG or by organizations that host these vocabularies?
15:48:07 [ivan]
q?
15:48:28 [ivan]
ack gcapiel
15:48:46 [fjh]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:48:58 [Zakim]
fjh, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gcapiel (31%)
15:49:28 [tzviya]
gcapiel: I've been working with Bill on enhancing vocabularies like schema.org, a search vocab
15:49:45 [ivan]
-> http://www.w3.org/TR/mediaont-10/ somewhat similar work done at W3C in the past
15:49:51 [tzviya]
...it may be that what we need for publishing will not move fast enough
15:49:58 [Zakim]
-jean_kaplansky
15:50:17 [Zakim]
+jean_kaplansky
15:50:38 [tzviya]
...schema.org will not address these issues in time
15:51:04 [tzviya]
...this issue needs to be addressed
15:51:06 [ivan]
zakim, mute gcapiel
15:51:06 [Zakim]
gcapiel should now be muted
15:51:26 [tzviya]
BillK: Gerardo's points are excellent
15:51:47 [tzviya]
...this is not just metadata about the document, but metadata within the document
15:51:55 [ivan]
ack azaroth
15:51:56 [fjh]
q+
15:52:39 [tzviya]
azaroth: love/hate relationship with metadata standards. We need to be careful not to disappear down a hole
15:53:12 [tzviya]
...we should point to standards, not try to incorporate them all
15:53:24 [dauwhe]
http://xkcd.com/927/
15:53:26 [tzviya]
...should not try to provide crosswalsk
15:53:42 [ivan]
ack fjh
15:53:58 [tzviya]
s/crosswalsk/crosswalks
15:54:16 [tzviya]
fjh: please summarize what gerardo said
15:54:31 [azaroth]
+1
15:54:35 [gcapiel]
gcapiel has joined #dpub
15:54:44 [tzviya]
billK: not only are there many standards, but they are constantly evolving
15:55:27 [tzviya]
ivan: if we decide to set up a clearing house then we have to be conscious of the fact that the content is dynamic
15:55:48 [tzviya]
...and the community has to be able to maintain it even after the WG is gone
15:55:55 [gcapiel]
Q+
15:56:06 [ivan]
zakim, unmute gcapiel
15:56:07 [Zakim]
gcapiel should no longer be muted
15:56:08 [tzviya]
fjh: I would be concerned about ongoing maintenance
15:56:15 [ivan]
ack gcapiel
15:56:47 [tzviya]
gcapiel: i think there are a lot of metadata standards, and I'd hate to reinvent the wheel
15:57:06 [tzviya]
...we need to make sure it's clear how to use existing standards within HTML
15:57:08 [ivan]
q+
15:57:43 [tzviya]
...in terms of ongoing maintenance, that is an issue if W3C takes on metadata work
15:57:55 [Zakim]
-jean_kaplansky
15:58:03 [tzviya]
...it might make sense to point to existing specs
15:58:22 [ivan]
ack ivan
15:58:32 [liam]
liam has joined #dpub
15:58:34 [tzviya]
BillK: perhaps the goal should be advising about how to make metadata specs interoperable
15:59:06 [tzviya]
ivan: fully agree with gerardo that defining a metadata spec is not something that we want to do
15:59:17 [tzviya]
...there is an intersection with annotations
15:59:24 [azaroth]
I agree with Ivan :)
15:59:53 [tzviya]
...in that we have to a way define a URI, a way to uniquely identify something
16:00:14 [tzviya]
...IDPF has a separate document on this, but not sure that it covers what we need
16:00:23 [fjh]
is that a TAG discussion topic?
16:00:37 [tzviya]
...we may want to address this ourselves or ask W3C to address this
16:00:40 [azaroth]
(Also agree that the IDPF work is currently insufficient for the DPUB IG's needs)
16:01:00 [tzviya]
...W3C is setting up a group to address best practices for publishing on the web
16:01:12 [tzviya]
...this will include describing data
16:01:27 [tzviya]
...and will be of interest for this group as well
16:01:37 [tzviya]
...probably will begin in Dec
16:01:56 [tzviya]
madi: conclusion seems to be that we don't need a task force
16:02:03 [tzviya]
ivan: i don't agree
16:02:23 [tzviya]
...I think we may need a task force, but it's different from other task forces
16:02:44 [gcapiel]
I agree
16:02:57 [azaroth]
Continue to agree with Ivan
16:03:12 [tzviya]
..this task force will research and recommend to W3C where to explore further
16:03:14 [fjh]
thanks
16:03:17 [Zakim]
-Sharad_Garg
16:03:18 [Zakim]
-gcapiel
16:03:18 [Zakim]
-Suzanne_Taylor
16:03:18 [Zakim]
-BillKasdorf
16:03:18 [tzviya]
BillK: makes sense
16:03:20 [Zakim]
-madi
16:03:21 [Zakim]
-dauwhe
16:03:21 [Zakim]
-azaroth
16:03:21 [Zakim]
-Ivan
16:03:22 [Zakim]
-Tzviya
16:03:24 [Zakim]
-Bert
16:03:27 [Zakim]
-fjh
16:03:29 [Zakim]
-laura
16:03:30 [Zakim]
SW_DPUB-IG()11:00AM has ended
16:03:30 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.518.669.aaaa, madi, +1.505.665.aabb, Tzviya, azaroth, BillKasdorf, +1.415.577.aacc, Ivan, fjh, gcapiel, dauwhe, jean_kaplansky, +1.609.216.aadd, laura, Bert,
16:03:30 [Zakim]
... Sharad_Garg, Suzanne_Taylor
16:03:37 [ivan]
zakim, who is there?
16:03:37 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, ivan.
16:03:44 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:03:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/28-dpub-minutes.html ivan
16:04:03 [tzviya]
Madi: we defined what this task force will not do. Will continue to define what the task force will fo
16:04:03 [ivan]
trackbot, stop telcon
16:04:03 [trackbot]
Sorry, ivan, I don't understand 'trackbot, stop telcon'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
16:04:11 [ivan]
trackbot, end telcon
16:04:11 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:04:11 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:04:19 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:04:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/10/28-dpub-minutes.html trackbot
16:04:20 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:04:20 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items