IRC log of eval on 2013-09-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:41:51 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eval
13:41:51 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-eval-irc
13:41:53 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:41:53 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #eval
13:41:55 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3825
13:41:55 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
13:41:56 [trackbot]
Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
13:41:56 [trackbot]
Date: 26 September 2013
13:42:20 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, this will be 3825
13:42:20 [Zakim]
ok, MartijnHoutepen; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
13:55:40 [Vivienne]
Vivienne has joined #eval
13:55:54 [korn]
korn has joined #eval
13:56:29 [MaryJo]
MaryJo has joined #eval
13:56:36 [korn]
Hy MaryJo!
13:56:46 [korn]
/Hy/Hi
13:57:34 [Liz]
Liz has joined #eval
13:57:41 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
13:57:43 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
13:57:49 [Vivienne]
zakim, IPcaller is me
13:57:49 [Zakim]
+Vivienne; got it
13:58:10 [Zakim]
+ +1.301.975.aaaa
13:58:12 [Zakim]
- +1.301.975.aaaa
13:58:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.301.975.aaaa
13:58:14 [ericvelleman]
ericvelleman has joined #eval
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+Peter_Korn
13:58:42 [Liz]
Zakim; aaaa is Liz
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+ +31.30.239.aabb
13:59:09 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, aabb is me
13:59:09 [Zakim]
+MartijnHoutepen; got it
13:59:20 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, aaaa is Liz
13:59:20 [Zakim]
+Liz; got it
14:00:21 [Zakim]
+Eric_Velleman
14:00:38 [Zakim]
+Mary_Jo_Mueller
14:02:40 [MartijnHoutepen]
scribe: Martijn
14:02:49 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, mute me
14:02:49 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
14:02:59 [MartijnHoutepen]
ev: welcome
14:04:02 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: new member: Mary Jo Mueller
14:04:47 [MartijnHoutepen]
MJM: introduces herself
14:04:54 [Detlev]
Detlev has joined #eval
14:06:01 [Zakim]
+ +49.404.318.aacc
14:06:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: Working on new ED
14:06:20 [Detlev]
Zakim, aacc is Detlev
14:06:20 [Zakim]
+Detlev; got it
14:06:35 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
14:06:35 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
14:06:44 [MartijnHoutepen]
topic: Reporting - Appendix C
14:07:01 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: survey 11 is still open
14:07:09 [MartijnHoutepen]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/EvalTFsurvey11/
14:07:39 [MartijnHoutepen]
Appendix C http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20130903#reports
14:07:40 [ericvelleman]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20130903#reports
14:08:21 [Detlev]
q+
14:08:23 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: not a lot work done yet on this
14:08:34 [korn]
q+
14:08:39 [Vivienne]
q+
14:08:45 [Detlev]
ack me
14:08:47 [MartijnHoutepen]
... question is: What do we want in the reports, is it optional
14:09:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
DF: appendix c says "should have'', does that mean "must have"?
14:10:01 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
14:10:01 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
14:10:05 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:10:45 [MartijnHoutepen]
PK: The sample report should be a sufficient evaluation statement
14:11:05 [MartijnHoutepen]
... should remain optional
14:11:27 [korn]
q-
14:11:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
... some of the bullets in the list are insufficiently specified
14:11:52 [Detlev]
So it would be "Date of the "accessibility evaluation statement" rather than "Date of the conformance claim"
14:12:00 [MartijnHoutepen]
... f.e. terminology
14:12:58 [MartijnHoutepen]
... Example report should also be an accessibility evaluation statement
14:14:27 [MartijnHoutepen]
VC: good suggestion of PK, we need more explaining on the items of the bullet-list
14:14:28 [korn]
q+
14:14:36 [Zakim]
+ +1.313.322.aadd
14:14:50 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:14:55 [MartijnHoutepen]
... problem with validity in time
14:14:58 [Mike_Elledge]
Mike_Elledge has joined #eval
14:15:08 [Kathy]
Kathy has joined #eval
14:15:28 [Detlev]
q+
14:15:30 [MartijnHoutepen]
... uri's of claim is not reasonable, more reasonable to include uri's of sample
14:15:33 [Zakim]
+Kathy
14:16:14 [MartijnHoutepen]
PK: 3rd bullet, conformance claim does not belong here
14:16:49 [Vivienne]
maybe "tested WCAG level"
14:17:12 [MartijnHoutepen]
... see also "conformance level" etc. all occurrances of "conformance"
14:17:49 [Detlev]
ack me
14:17:51 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: copied some info from WCAG, we could include some (with reference)
14:17:55 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:18:02 [korn]
q-
14:18:04 [korn]
ack V
14:18:31 [korn]
q+
14:18:52 [MartijnHoutepen]
DF: URL: sufficient to use just URL if it includes all pages on that site, agree with VC to include list of sample pages
14:19:07 [MartijnHoutepen]
... remover occurrances of "claim"
14:19:13 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:19:29 [MartijnHoutepen]
... only date to include can be the evaluation date
14:19:59 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: we will look at the use of conformance and claim, etc
14:20:24 [MartijnHoutepen]
DF: Good idea to list all pages in sample
14:21:02 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
14:21:02 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
14:21:35 [MartijnHoutepen]
PK: the list of pages makes sence for traditional website, for applications it doesn't
14:21:47 [Kathy]
q+
14:21:49 [Detlev]
q+
14:22:12 [MartijnHoutepen]
... we need to include a way to describe states in webapps
14:22:35 [Detlev]
zakim, mute me
14:22:35 [Zakim]
Detlev was already muted, Detlev
14:23:02 [MaryJo]
q+
14:23:05 [MartijnHoutepen]
... keep in mind development patterns, could be more data behind statement than can be included in list
14:23:32 [Detlev]
q-
14:23:37 [korn]
ack me
14:23:38 [MartijnHoutepen]
... add release number , version number when known
14:24:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: instead of date? extra option?
14:24:47 [MartijnHoutepen]
PK: varies, which is most applicable or most significant
14:24:58 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: or combination
14:24:59 [Kathy]
ack me
14:25:24 [Tim]
Tim has joined #eval
14:25:44 [MartijnHoutepen]
KW: list of pages does not always apply, sometimes specific use cases fit better
14:26:53 [MartijnHoutepen]
KW: sometimes use cases are very long (more than 50 pages)
14:26:55 [Kathy]
zakim, mute me
14:26:55 [Zakim]
Kathy should now be muted
14:28:08 [MartijnHoutepen]
MJM: when you use webcrawlers on enterprise sites, the list could be very long. Settings of crawler can also of use
14:29:10 [Vivienne]
q+
14:29:15 [Kathy]
q+
14:29:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: what do we want to do with output from automated testing
14:30:04 [MartijnHoutepen]
MJM: We have to have some generic example of the use of automated tool
14:30:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: so many tools, has to be very generic
14:30:37 [MartijnHoutepen]
q- mary
14:31:48 [Tim]
maybe use several different tools (at least 2) - do we want to specify?
14:32:06 [MartijnHoutepen]
VC: we use automated tools as assistance, but not rely on them. We agreed to list tools used, but not get into the use of automated tools too much
14:32:35 [MartijnHoutepen]
... we wanted to steer away from reliance on automated tools
14:32:36 [Kathy]
ack me
14:33:55 [MartijnHoutepen]
KW: in reporting, there is added value in including results of automated tools, though we would not want to rely on these results alone
14:34:35 [MartijnHoutepen]
... we should include this in reporting
14:34:42 [MartijnHoutepen]
q- viv
14:34:42 [Vivienne]
q-
14:34:43 [Kathy]
zakim, mute me
14:34:43 [Zakim]
Kathy should now be muted
14:35:51 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: in the reporting step 5a we refer to an optional step 4e where we refer to the use of tools
14:36:16 [MartijnHoutepen]
... we don't have anything on crawlers
14:37:01 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: at the moment just tools that support evaluation
14:37:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: should we make a division optional/non-optional, should we define a minimum?
14:37:39 [Kathy]
q+
14:37:43 [Kathy]
ack me
14:38:05 [korn]
q+
14:38:09 [ericvelleman]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20130903#reports
14:39:18 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: in step 5a we already ask to report almost everything
14:39:20 [korn]
q-
14:39:31 [Detlev]
q+
14:39:34 [Detlev]
ack me
14:40:03 [MartijnHoutepen]
KW: we do need to make reporting too much work if it is not necessary
14:40:09 [Kathy]
zakim, mute me
14:40:09 [Zakim]
Kathy should now be muted
14:40:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
KW: do not
14:40:38 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:40:55 [Zakim]
+Tim_Boland
14:41:01 [MartijnHoutepen]
DF: some items on the list should be mandatory, others can be optional
14:41:33 [Vivienne]
+1
14:41:38 [MartijnHoutepen]
DF: maybe put the items in a survey and discuss this
14:41:45 [Liz]
+1
14:41:51 [MartijnHoutepen]
Ev: I could split in two in a new ED
14:41:52 [Tim]
+1
14:42:05 [MartijnHoutepen]
+1
14:42:29 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
14:42:29 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
14:42:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: will split into mandatory and optional
14:42:56 [korn]
q+
14:42:59 [Vivienne]
Yes, Eric that's fine
14:43:41 [MartijnHoutepen]
PK: the most important mandatory parts are those that make it an evaluation statement
14:45:51 [Vivienne]
q+
14:46:04 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: what should be mandatory
14:46:25 [MartijnHoutepen]
PK: level A, AA or AAA
14:46:46 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: DF mentioned date, pages in sample
14:47:21 [MartijnHoutepen]
TB: name, name of org, some attribution
14:47:42 [MartijnHoutepen]
the result
14:48:56 [MartijnHoutepen]
VC: the scope of what you're using, the guideline, description of the website, description of the sample
14:49:25 [korn]
q+
14:49:38 [MartijnHoutepen]
q- viv
14:50:14 [MartijnHoutepen]
PK: scope of evaluation, critical, core features
14:50:37 [MartijnHoutepen]
q- k
14:50:42 [Detlev]
q+
14:51:05 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: number of things already in step 5
14:51:42 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:51:45 [Detlev]
ack me
14:52:13 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: we need to include introduction text on evaluation commissionar etc
14:53:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
DF: scope of evaluation includes what is core, etc
14:53:53 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: will include this in new ED
14:54:25 [MartijnHoutepen]
topic: other issues
14:55:12 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: survey will be discussed next time, things everyone agrees on will be in next ED
14:55:22 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: no telco next week
14:55:55 [MartijnHoutepen]
PK: concerned on time dilation
14:56:34 [Detlev]
fine
14:56:38 [MartijnHoutepen]
... lot of uninamity on lot of items, maybe you can put these things in the new ED
14:56:52 [MartijnHoutepen]
... as long as it is transparent
14:56:53 [Liz]
+1
14:56:57 [Vivienne]
+1
14:56:59 [MaryJo]
+1
14:57:05 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: does everyone agree?
14:57:07 [MartijnHoutepen]
+1
14:57:15 [Tim]
+1
14:57:38 [MartijnHoutepen]
s/uninamity/unanimity
14:58:08 [Detlev]
you will be missed!
14:58:35 [Mike_Elledge]
Yes--good luck to you Peter! I hope you'll be able to continue as an Invited Expert.
14:58:52 [Tim]
hope you can continue..
14:59:06 [Vivienne]
You would be sorely missed Peter,let's hope you can stay on
14:59:09 [MartijnHoutepen]
PK: will be leaving group, hope to focus on evaluation statement and reporting on the short term
14:59:52 [Mike_Elledge]
+1
14:59:56 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: great work PK
15:00:21 [korn]
Thanks Martijn, Vivienne, TIm, Detlev, Mike, all.
15:00:34 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: no telco next week
15:00:40 [MartijnHoutepen]
Thanks Peter
15:01:07 [Detlev]
bye!
15:01:11 [Zakim]
-Tim_Boland
15:01:11 [Liz]
bye
15:01:12 [Zakim]
-Detlev
15:01:12 [Zakim]
-Kathy
15:01:14 [Zakim]
-Peter_Korn
15:01:15 [Zakim]
-Mary_Jo_Mueller
15:01:17 [Zakim]
-MartijnHoutepen
15:01:17 [Mike_Elledge]
bye!
15:01:18 [Zakim]
-Eric_Velleman
15:01:22 [MartijnHoutepen]
trackbot, end meeting
15:01:22 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:01:22 [Zakim]
- +1.313.322.aadd
15:01:22 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Vivienne, +1.301.975.aaaa, Peter_Korn, +31.30.239.aabb, MartijnHoutepen, Liz, Eric_Velleman, Mary_Jo_Mueller, +49.404.318.aacc, Detlev,
15:01:25 [Zakim]
... +1.313.322.aadd, Kathy, Tim_Boland
15:01:25 [Zakim]
-Vivienne
15:01:26 [Zakim]
-Liz
15:01:26 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
15:01:26 [Zakim]
Attendees were Vivienne, +1.301.975.aaaa, Peter_Korn, +31.30.239.aabb, MartijnHoutepen, Liz, Eric_Velleman, Mary_Jo_Mueller, +49.404.318.aacc, Detlev, +1.313.322.aadd, Kathy,
15:01:26 [Zakim]
... Tim_Boland
15:01:30 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:01:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-eval-minutes.html trackbot
15:01:31 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
15:01:31 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items