IRC log of eval on 2013-09-26
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:41:51 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #eval
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-eval-irc
- 13:41:53 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 13:41:53 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #eval
- 13:41:55 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be 3825
- 13:41:55 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
- 13:41:56 [trackbot]
- Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
- 13:41:56 [trackbot]
- Date: 26 September 2013
- 13:42:20 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, this will be 3825
- 13:42:20 [Zakim]
- ok, MartijnHoutepen; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
- 13:55:40 [Vivienne]
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- 13:56:29 [MaryJo]
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- 13:56:36 [korn]
- Hy MaryJo!
- 13:56:46 [korn]
- /Hy/Hi
- 13:57:34 [Liz]
- Liz has joined #eval
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- WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
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- +[IPcaller]
- 13:57:49 [Vivienne]
- zakim, IPcaller is me
- 13:57:49 [Zakim]
- +Vivienne; got it
- 13:58:10 [Zakim]
- + +1.301.975.aaaa
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- - +1.301.975.aaaa
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- + +1.301.975.aaaa
- 13:58:14 [ericvelleman]
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- +Peter_Korn
- 13:58:42 [Liz]
- Zakim; aaaa is Liz
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- + +31.30.239.aabb
- 13:59:09 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, aabb is me
- 13:59:09 [Zakim]
- +MartijnHoutepen; got it
- 13:59:20 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, aaaa is Liz
- 13:59:20 [Zakim]
- +Liz; got it
- 14:00:21 [Zakim]
- +Eric_Velleman
- 14:00:38 [Zakim]
- +Mary_Jo_Mueller
- 14:02:40 [MartijnHoutepen]
- scribe: Martijn
- 14:02:49 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, mute me
- 14:02:49 [Zakim]
- MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
- 14:02:59 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ev: welcome
- 14:04:02 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: new member: Mary Jo Mueller
- 14:04:47 [MartijnHoutepen]
- MJM: introduces herself
- 14:04:54 [Detlev]
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- 14:06:01 [Zakim]
- + +49.404.318.aacc
- 14:06:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: Working on new ED
- 14:06:20 [Detlev]
- Zakim, aacc is Detlev
- 14:06:20 [Zakim]
- +Detlev; got it
- 14:06:35 [Detlev]
- Zakim, mute me
- 14:06:35 [Zakim]
- Detlev should now be muted
- 14:06:44 [MartijnHoutepen]
- topic: Reporting - Appendix C
- 14:07:01 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: survey 11 is still open
- 14:07:09 [MartijnHoutepen]
- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/EvalTFsurvey11/
- 14:07:39 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Appendix C http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20130903#reports
- 14:07:40 [ericvelleman]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20130903#reports
- 14:08:21 [Detlev]
- q+
- 14:08:23 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: not a lot work done yet on this
- 14:08:34 [korn]
- q+
- 14:08:39 [Vivienne]
- q+
- 14:08:45 [Detlev]
- ack me
- 14:08:47 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ... question is: What do we want in the reports, is it optional
- 14:09:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
- DF: appendix c says "should have'', does that mean "must have"?
- 14:10:01 [Detlev]
- Zakim, mute me
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- Detlev should now be muted
- 14:10:05 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:10:45 [MartijnHoutepen]
- PK: The sample report should be a sufficient evaluation statement
- 14:11:05 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ... should remain optional
- 14:11:27 [korn]
- q-
- 14:11:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ... some of the bullets in the list are insufficiently specified
- 14:11:52 [Detlev]
- So it would be "Date of the "accessibility evaluation statement" rather than "Date of the conformance claim"
- 14:12:00 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ... f.e. terminology
- 14:12:58 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ... Example report should also be an accessibility evaluation statement
- 14:14:27 [MartijnHoutepen]
- VC: good suggestion of PK, we need more explaining on the items of the bullet-list
- 14:14:28 [korn]
- q+
- 14:14:36 [Zakim]
- + +1.313.322.aadd
- 14:14:50 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:14:55 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ... problem with validity in time
- 14:14:58 [Mike_Elledge]
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- 14:15:08 [Kathy]
- Kathy has joined #eval
- 14:15:28 [Detlev]
- q+
- 14:15:30 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ... uri's of claim is not reasonable, more reasonable to include uri's of sample
- 14:15:33 [Zakim]
- +Kathy
- 14:16:14 [MartijnHoutepen]
- PK: 3rd bullet, conformance claim does not belong here
- 14:16:49 [Vivienne]
- maybe "tested WCAG level"
- 14:17:12 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ... see also "conformance level" etc. all occurrances of "conformance"
- 14:17:49 [Detlev]
- ack me
- 14:17:51 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: copied some info from WCAG, we could include some (with reference)
- 14:17:55 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:18:02 [korn]
- q-
- 14:18:04 [korn]
- ack V
- 14:18:31 [korn]
- q+
- 14:18:52 [MartijnHoutepen]
- DF: URL: sufficient to use just URL if it includes all pages on that site, agree with VC to include list of sample pages
- 14:19:07 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ... remover occurrances of "claim"
- 14:19:13 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:19:29 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ... only date to include can be the evaluation date
- 14:19:59 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: we will look at the use of conformance and claim, etc
- 14:20:24 [MartijnHoutepen]
- DF: Good idea to list all pages in sample
- 14:21:02 [Detlev]
- Zakim, mute me
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- Detlev should now be muted
- 14:21:35 [MartijnHoutepen]
- PK: the list of pages makes sence for traditional website, for applications it doesn't
- 14:21:47 [Kathy]
- q+
- 14:21:49 [Detlev]
- q+
- 14:22:12 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ... we need to include a way to describe states in webapps
- 14:22:35 [Detlev]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:22:35 [Zakim]
- Detlev was already muted, Detlev
- 14:23:02 [MaryJo]
- q+
- 14:23:05 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ... keep in mind development patterns, could be more data behind statement than can be included in list
- 14:23:32 [Detlev]
- q-
- 14:23:37 [korn]
- ack me
- 14:23:38 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ... add release number , version number when known
- 14:24:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: instead of date? extra option?
- 14:24:47 [MartijnHoutepen]
- PK: varies, which is most applicable or most significant
- 14:24:58 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: or combination
- 14:24:59 [Kathy]
- ack me
- 14:25:24 [Tim]
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- 14:25:44 [MartijnHoutepen]
- KW: list of pages does not always apply, sometimes specific use cases fit better
- 14:26:53 [MartijnHoutepen]
- KW: sometimes use cases are very long (more than 50 pages)
- 14:26:55 [Kathy]
- zakim, mute me
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- Kathy should now be muted
- 14:28:08 [MartijnHoutepen]
- MJM: when you use webcrawlers on enterprise sites, the list could be very long. Settings of crawler can also of use
- 14:29:10 [Vivienne]
- q+
- 14:29:15 [Kathy]
- q+
- 14:29:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: what do we want to do with output from automated testing
- 14:30:04 [MartijnHoutepen]
- MJM: We have to have some generic example of the use of automated tool
- 14:30:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: so many tools, has to be very generic
- 14:30:37 [MartijnHoutepen]
- q- mary
- 14:31:48 [Tim]
- maybe use several different tools (at least 2) - do we want to specify?
- 14:32:06 [MartijnHoutepen]
- VC: we use automated tools as assistance, but not rely on them. We agreed to list tools used, but not get into the use of automated tools too much
- 14:32:35 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ... we wanted to steer away from reliance on automated tools
- 14:32:36 [Kathy]
- ack me
- 14:33:55 [MartijnHoutepen]
- KW: in reporting, there is added value in including results of automated tools, though we would not want to rely on these results alone
- 14:34:35 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ... we should include this in reporting
- 14:34:42 [MartijnHoutepen]
- q- viv
- 14:34:42 [Vivienne]
- q-
- 14:34:43 [Kathy]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:34:43 [Zakim]
- Kathy should now be muted
- 14:35:51 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: in the reporting step 5a we refer to an optional step 4e where we refer to the use of tools
- 14:36:16 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ... we don't have anything on crawlers
- 14:37:01 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: at the moment just tools that support evaluation
- 14:37:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: should we make a division optional/non-optional, should we define a minimum?
- 14:37:39 [Kathy]
- q+
- 14:37:43 [Kathy]
- ack me
- 14:38:05 [korn]
- q+
- 14:38:09 [ericvelleman]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20130903#reports
- 14:39:18 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: in step 5a we already ask to report almost everything
- 14:39:20 [korn]
- q-
- 14:39:31 [Detlev]
- q+
- 14:39:34 [Detlev]
- ack me
- 14:40:03 [MartijnHoutepen]
- KW: we do need to make reporting too much work if it is not necessary
- 14:40:09 [Kathy]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:40:09 [Zakim]
- Kathy should now be muted
- 14:40:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
- KW: do not
- 14:40:38 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:40:55 [Zakim]
- +Tim_Boland
- 14:41:01 [MartijnHoutepen]
- DF: some items on the list should be mandatory, others can be optional
- 14:41:33 [Vivienne]
- +1
- 14:41:38 [MartijnHoutepen]
- DF: maybe put the items in a survey and discuss this
- 14:41:45 [Liz]
- +1
- 14:41:51 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Ev: I could split in two in a new ED
- 14:41:52 [Tim]
- +1
- 14:42:05 [MartijnHoutepen]
- +1
- 14:42:29 [Detlev]
- Zakim, mute me
- 14:42:29 [Zakim]
- Detlev should now be muted
- 14:42:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: will split into mandatory and optional
- 14:42:56 [korn]
- q+
- 14:42:59 [Vivienne]
- Yes, Eric that's fine
- 14:43:41 [MartijnHoutepen]
- PK: the most important mandatory parts are those that make it an evaluation statement
- 14:45:51 [Vivienne]
- q+
- 14:46:04 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: what should be mandatory
- 14:46:25 [MartijnHoutepen]
- PK: level A, AA or AAA
- 14:46:46 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: DF mentioned date, pages in sample
- 14:47:21 [MartijnHoutepen]
- TB: name, name of org, some attribution
- 14:47:42 [MartijnHoutepen]
- the result
- 14:48:56 [MartijnHoutepen]
- VC: the scope of what you're using, the guideline, description of the website, description of the sample
- 14:49:25 [korn]
- q+
- 14:49:38 [MartijnHoutepen]
- q- viv
- 14:50:14 [MartijnHoutepen]
- PK: scope of evaluation, critical, core features
- 14:50:37 [MartijnHoutepen]
- q- k
- 14:50:42 [Detlev]
- q+
- 14:51:05 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: number of things already in step 5
- 14:51:42 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:51:45 [Detlev]
- ack me
- 14:52:13 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: we need to include introduction text on evaluation commissionar etc
- 14:53:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
- DF: scope of evaluation includes what is core, etc
- 14:53:53 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: will include this in new ED
- 14:54:25 [MartijnHoutepen]
- topic: other issues
- 14:55:12 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: survey will be discussed next time, things everyone agrees on will be in next ED
- 14:55:22 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: no telco next week
- 14:55:55 [MartijnHoutepen]
- PK: concerned on time dilation
- 14:56:34 [Detlev]
- fine
- 14:56:38 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ... lot of uninamity on lot of items, maybe you can put these things in the new ED
- 14:56:52 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ... as long as it is transparent
- 14:56:53 [Liz]
- +1
- 14:56:57 [Vivienne]
- +1
- 14:56:59 [MaryJo]
- +1
- 14:57:05 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: does everyone agree?
- 14:57:07 [MartijnHoutepen]
- +1
- 14:57:15 [Tim]
- +1
- 14:57:38 [MartijnHoutepen]
- s/uninamity/unanimity
- 14:58:08 [Detlev]
- you will be missed!
- 14:58:35 [Mike_Elledge]
- Yes--good luck to you Peter! I hope you'll be able to continue as an Invited Expert.
- 14:58:52 [Tim]
- hope you can continue..
- 14:59:06 [Vivienne]
- You would be sorely missed Peter,let's hope you can stay on
- 14:59:09 [MartijnHoutepen]
- PK: will be leaving group, hope to focus on evaluation statement and reporting on the short term
- 14:59:52 [Mike_Elledge]
- +1
- 14:59:56 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: great work PK
- 15:00:21 [korn]
- Thanks Martijn, Vivienne, TIm, Detlev, Mike, all.
- 15:00:34 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: no telco next week
- 15:00:40 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Thanks Peter
- 15:01:07 [Detlev]
- bye!
- 15:01:11 [Zakim]
- -Tim_Boland
- 15:01:11 [Liz]
- bye
- 15:01:12 [Zakim]
- -Detlev
- 15:01:12 [Zakim]
- -Kathy
- 15:01:14 [Zakim]
- -Peter_Korn
- 15:01:15 [Zakim]
- -Mary_Jo_Mueller
- 15:01:17 [Zakim]
- -MartijnHoutepen
- 15:01:17 [Mike_Elledge]
- bye!
- 15:01:18 [Zakim]
- -Eric_Velleman
- 15:01:22 [MartijnHoutepen]
- trackbot, end meeting
- 15:01:22 [trackbot]
- Zakim, list attendees
- 15:01:22 [Zakim]
- - +1.313.322.aadd
- 15:01:22 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been Vivienne, +1.301.975.aaaa, Peter_Korn, +31.30.239.aabb, MartijnHoutepen, Liz, Eric_Velleman, Mary_Jo_Mueller, +49.404.318.aacc, Detlev,
- 15:01:25 [Zakim]
- ... +1.313.322.aadd, Kathy, Tim_Boland
- 15:01:25 [Zakim]
- -Vivienne
- 15:01:26 [Zakim]
- -Liz
- 15:01:26 [Zakim]
- WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
- 15:01:26 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Vivienne, +1.301.975.aaaa, Peter_Korn, +31.30.239.aabb, MartijnHoutepen, Liz, Eric_Velleman, Mary_Jo_Mueller, +49.404.318.aacc, Detlev, +1.313.322.aadd, Kathy,
- 15:01:26 [Zakim]
- ... Tim_Boland
- 15:01:30 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 15:01:30 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-eval-minutes.html trackbot
- 15:01:31 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 15:01:31 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items