13:41:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eval
13:41:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-eval-irc
13:41:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:41:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eval
13:41:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3825
13:41:55 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
13:41:56 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
13:41:56 <trackbot> Date: 26 September 2013
13:42:20 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, this will be 3825
13:42:20 <Zakim> ok, MartijnHoutepen; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
13:55:40 <Vivienne> Vivienne has joined #eval
13:55:54 <korn> korn has joined #eval
13:56:29 <MaryJo> MaryJo has joined #eval
13:56:36 <korn> Hy MaryJo!
13:56:46 <korn> /Hy/Hi
13:57:34 <Liz> Liz has joined #eval
13:57:41 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
13:57:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:57:49 <Vivienne> zakim, IPcaller is me
13:57:49 <Zakim> +Vivienne; got it
13:58:10 <Zakim> + +1.301.975.aaaa
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13:58:12 <Zakim> + +1.301.975.aaaa
13:58:14 <ericvelleman> ericvelleman has joined #eval
13:58:21 <Zakim> +Peter_Korn
13:58:42 <Liz> Zakim; aaaa is Liz
13:58:58 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aabb
13:59:09 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, aabb is me
13:59:09 <Zakim> +MartijnHoutepen; got it
13:59:20 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, aaaa is Liz
13:59:20 <Zakim> +Liz; got it
14:00:21 <Zakim> +Eric_Velleman
14:00:38 <Zakim> +Mary_Jo_Mueller
14:02:40 <MartijnHoutepen> scribe: Martijn
14:02:49 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, mute me
14:02:49 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
14:02:59 <MartijnHoutepen> ev: welcome
14:04:02 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: new member: Mary Jo Mueller
14:04:47 <MartijnHoutepen> MJM: introduces herself
14:04:54 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #eval
14:06:01 <Zakim> + +49.404.318.aacc
14:06:17 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: Working on new ED
14:06:20 <Detlev> Zakim, aacc is Detlev
14:06:20 <Zakim> +Detlev; got it
14:06:35 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
14:06:35 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
14:06:44 <MartijnHoutepen> topic: Reporting - Appendix C
14:07:01 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: survey 11 is still open
14:07:09 <MartijnHoutepen> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/EvalTFsurvey11/
14:07:39 <MartijnHoutepen> Appendix C http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20130903#reports
14:07:40 <ericvelleman> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20130903#reports
14:08:21 <Detlev> q+
14:08:23 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: not a lot work done yet on this
14:08:34 <korn> q+
14:08:39 <Vivienne> q+
14:08:45 <Detlev> ack me
14:08:47 <MartijnHoutepen> ... question is: What do we want in the reports, is it optional
14:09:32 <MartijnHoutepen> DF: appendix c says "should have'', does that mean "must have"?
14:10:01 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
14:10:01 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
14:10:05 <ericvelleman> q?
14:10:45 <MartijnHoutepen> PK: The sample report should be a sufficient evaluation statement
14:11:05 <MartijnHoutepen> ... should remain optional
14:11:27 <korn> q-
14:11:32 <MartijnHoutepen> ... some of the bullets in the list are insufficiently specified
14:11:52 <Detlev> So it would be "Date of the "accessibility evaluation statement" rather than "Date of the conformance claim"
14:12:00 <MartijnHoutepen> ... f.e. terminology
14:12:58 <MartijnHoutepen> ... Example report should also be an accessibility evaluation statement
14:14:27 <MartijnHoutepen> VC: good suggestion of PK, we need more explaining on the items of the bullet-list
14:14:28 <korn> q+
14:14:36 <Zakim> + +1.313.322.aadd
14:14:50 <ericvelleman> q?
14:14:55 <MartijnHoutepen> ... problem with validity in time
14:14:58 <Mike_Elledge> Mike_Elledge has joined #eval
14:15:08 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #eval
14:15:28 <Detlev> q+
14:15:30 <MartijnHoutepen> ... uri's of claim is not reasonable, more reasonable to include uri's of sample
14:15:33 <Zakim> +Kathy
14:16:14 <MartijnHoutepen> PK: 3rd bullet, conformance claim does not belong here
14:16:49 <Vivienne> maybe "tested WCAG level"
14:17:12 <MartijnHoutepen> ... see also "conformance level" etc. all occurrances of "conformance"
14:17:49 <Detlev> ack me
14:17:51 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: copied some info from WCAG, we could include some (with reference)
14:17:55 <ericvelleman> q?
14:18:02 <korn> q-
14:18:04 <korn> ack V
14:18:31 <korn> q+
14:18:52 <MartijnHoutepen> DF: URL: sufficient to use just URL if it includes all pages on that site, agree with VC to include list of sample pages
14:19:07 <MartijnHoutepen> ... remover occurrances of "claim"
14:19:13 <ericvelleman> q?
14:19:29 <MartijnHoutepen> ... only date to include can be the evaluation date
14:19:59 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: we will look at the use of conformance and claim, etc
14:20:24 <MartijnHoutepen> DF: Good idea to list all pages in sample
14:21:02 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
14:21:02 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
14:21:35 <MartijnHoutepen> PK: the list of pages makes sence for traditional website, for applications it doesn't
14:21:47 <Kathy> q+
14:21:49 <Detlev> q+
14:22:12 <MartijnHoutepen> ... we need to include a way to describe states in webapps
14:22:35 <Detlev> zakim, mute me
14:22:35 <Zakim> Detlev was already muted, Detlev
14:23:02 <MaryJo> q+
14:23:05 <MartijnHoutepen> ... keep in mind development patterns, could be more data behind statement than can be included in list
14:23:32 <Detlev> q-
14:23:37 <korn> ack me
14:23:38 <MartijnHoutepen> ... add release number , version number when known
14:24:10 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: instead of date? extra option?
14:24:47 <MartijnHoutepen> PK: varies, which is most applicable or most significant
14:24:58 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: or combination
14:24:59 <Kathy> ack me
14:25:24 <Tim> Tim has joined #eval
14:25:44 <MartijnHoutepen> KW: list of pages does not always apply, sometimes specific use cases fit better
14:26:53 <MartijnHoutepen> KW: sometimes use cases are very long (more than 50 pages)
14:26:55 <Kathy> zakim, mute me
14:26:55 <Zakim> Kathy should now be muted
14:28:08 <MartijnHoutepen> MJM: when you use webcrawlers on enterprise sites, the list could be very long. Settings of crawler can also of use
14:29:10 <Vivienne> q+
14:29:15 <Kathy> q+
14:29:17 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: what do we want to do with output from automated testing
14:30:04 <MartijnHoutepen> MJM: We have to have some generic example of the use of automated tool
14:30:32 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: so many tools, has to be very generic
14:30:37 <MartijnHoutepen> q- mary
14:31:48 <Tim> maybe use several different tools (at least 2) - do we want to specify?
14:32:06 <MartijnHoutepen> VC: we use automated tools as assistance, but not rely on them. We agreed to list tools used, but not get into the use of automated tools too much
14:32:35 <MartijnHoutepen> ... we wanted to steer away from reliance on automated tools
14:32:36 <Kathy> ack me
14:33:55 <MartijnHoutepen> KW: in reporting, there is added value in including results of automated tools, though we would not want to rely on these results alone
14:34:35 <MartijnHoutepen> ... we should include this in reporting
14:34:42 <MartijnHoutepen> q- viv
14:34:42 <Vivienne> q-
14:34:43 <Kathy> zakim, mute me
14:34:43 <Zakim> Kathy should now be muted
14:35:51 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: in the reporting step 5a we refer to an optional step 4e where we refer to the use of tools
14:36:16 <MartijnHoutepen> ... we don't have anything on crawlers
14:37:01 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: at the moment just tools that support evaluation
14:37:32 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: should we make a division optional/non-optional, should we define a minimum?
14:37:39 <Kathy> q+
14:37:43 <Kathy> ack me
14:38:05 <korn> q+
14:38:09 <ericvelleman> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20130903#reports
14:39:18 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: in step 5a we already ask to report almost everything
14:39:20 <korn> q-
14:39:31 <Detlev> q+
14:39:34 <Detlev> ack me
14:40:03 <MartijnHoutepen> KW: we do need to make reporting too much work if it is not necessary
14:40:09 <Kathy> zakim, mute me
14:40:09 <Zakim> Kathy should now be muted
14:40:17 <MartijnHoutepen> KW: do not
14:40:38 <ericvelleman> q?
14:40:55 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
14:41:01 <MartijnHoutepen> DF: some items on the list should be mandatory, others can be optional
14:41:33 <Vivienne> +1
14:41:38 <MartijnHoutepen> DF: maybe put the items in a survey and discuss this
14:41:45 <Liz> +1
14:41:51 <MartijnHoutepen> Ev: I could split in two in a new ED
14:41:52 <Tim> +1
14:42:05 <MartijnHoutepen> +1
14:42:29 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
14:42:29 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
14:42:32 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: will split into mandatory and optional
14:42:56 <korn> q+
14:42:59 <Vivienne> Yes, Eric that's fine
14:43:41 <MartijnHoutepen> PK: the most important mandatory parts are those that make it an evaluation statement
14:45:51 <Vivienne> q+
14:46:04 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: what should be mandatory
14:46:25 <MartijnHoutepen> PK: level A, AA or AAA
14:46:46 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: DF mentioned date, pages in sample
14:47:21 <MartijnHoutepen> TB: name, name of org,  some attribution
14:47:42 <MartijnHoutepen> the result
14:48:56 <MartijnHoutepen> VC: the scope of what you're using, the guideline, description of the website, description of the sample
14:49:25 <korn> q+
14:49:38 <MartijnHoutepen> q- viv
14:50:14 <MartijnHoutepen> PK: scope of evaluation, critical, core features
14:50:37 <MartijnHoutepen> q- k
14:50:42 <Detlev> q+
14:51:05 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: number of things already in step 5
14:51:42 <ericvelleman> q?
14:51:45 <Detlev> ack me
14:52:13 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: we need to include introduction text on evaluation commissionar etc
14:53:17 <MartijnHoutepen> DF: scope of evaluation includes what is core, etc
14:53:53 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: will include this in new ED
14:54:25 <MartijnHoutepen> topic: other issues
14:55:12 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: survey will be discussed next time, things everyone agrees on will be in next ED
14:55:22 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: no telco next week
14:55:55 <MartijnHoutepen> PK: concerned on time dilation
14:56:34 <Detlev> fine
14:56:38 <MartijnHoutepen> ... lot of uninamity on lot of items, maybe you can put these things in the new ED
14:56:52 <MartijnHoutepen> ... as long as it is transparent
14:56:53 <Liz> +1
14:56:57 <Vivienne> +1
14:56:59 <MaryJo> +1
14:57:05 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: does everyone agree?
14:57:07 <MartijnHoutepen> +1
14:57:15 <Tim> +1
14:57:38 <MartijnHoutepen> s/uninamity/unanimity
14:58:08 <Detlev> you will be missed!
14:58:35 <Mike_Elledge> Yes--good luck to you Peter! I hope you'll be able to continue as an Invited Expert.
14:58:52 <Tim> hope you can continue..
14:59:06 <Vivienne> You would be sorely missed Peter,let's hope you can stay on
14:59:09 <MartijnHoutepen> PK: will be leaving group, hope to focus on evaluation statement and reporting on the short term
14:59:52 <Mike_Elledge> +1
14:59:56 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: great work PK
15:00:21 <korn> Thanks Martijn, Vivienne, TIm, Detlev, Mike, all.
15:00:34 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: no telco next week
15:00:40 <MartijnHoutepen> Thanks Peter
15:01:07 <Detlev> bye!
15:01:11 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
15:01:11 <Liz> bye
15:01:12 <Zakim> -Detlev
15:01:12 <Zakim> -Kathy
15:01:14 <Zakim> -Peter_Korn
15:01:15 <Zakim> -Mary_Jo_Mueller
15:01:17 <Zakim> -MartijnHoutepen
15:01:17 <Mike_Elledge> bye!
15:01:18 <Zakim> -Eric_Velleman
15:01:22 <MartijnHoutepen> trackbot, end meeting
15:01:22 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:01:22 <Zakim> - +1.313.322.aadd
15:01:22 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Vivienne, +1.301.975.aaaa, Peter_Korn, +31.30.239.aabb, MartijnHoutepen, Liz, Eric_Velleman, Mary_Jo_Mueller, +49.404.318.aacc, Detlev,
15:01:25 <Zakim> ... +1.313.322.aadd, Kathy, Tim_Boland
15:01:25 <Zakim> -Vivienne
15:01:26 <Zakim> -Liz
15:01:26 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
15:01:26 <Zakim> Attendees were Vivienne, +1.301.975.aaaa, Peter_Korn, +31.30.239.aabb, MartijnHoutepen, Liz, Eric_Velleman, Mary_Jo_Mueller, +49.404.318.aacc, Detlev, +1.313.322.aadd, Kathy,
15:01:26 <Zakim> ... Tim_Boland
15:01:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:01:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-eval-minutes.html trackbot
15:01:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:01:31 <RRSAgent> I see no action items