14:47:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:47:22 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/25-forms-irc
14:47:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:47:24 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
14:47:26 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
14:47:26 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
14:47:27 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
14:47:27 <trackbot> Date: 25 September 2013
14:56:32 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
15:00:52 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
15:00:58 <Zakim> +ebruchez
15:01:23 <Zakim> +??P7
15:01:26 <Steven> zakim, I am ?
15:01:26 <Zakim> +Steven; got it
15:01:42 <alain> alain has joined #forms
15:02:29 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #forms
15:02:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:02:58 <nvdbleek> I'm calling in a minute
15:03:11 <alain> Zakim, I am [ipcaller]
15:03:11 <Zakim> ok, alain, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
15:03:12 <Steven> zakim, + is alain
15:03:13 <Zakim> sorry, Steven, I do not recognize a party named '+'
15:04:30 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Sep/0005
15:04:37 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Sep/0005
15:04:41 <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
15:04:41 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
15:05:10 <unl> unl has joined #forms
15:05:26 <Zakim> +nvdbleek
15:08:13 <unl> zakim doesn't like me...
15:08:50 <Steven> http://www.balisage.net/Proceedings/vol10/html/Pemberton01/BalisageVol10-Pemberton01.html
15:09:11 <Zakim> +unl
15:10:14 <Steven> Topic: Checking if an extension function exists and implementation/version
15:10:14 <Steven> sniffing
15:10:14 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2013Sep/0000.html
15:10:23 <Steven> Topic: Checking if an extension function exists and implementation/version
15:10:23 <Steven> sniffing
15:10:23 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2013Sep/0000.html
15:10:54 <nvdbleek> zakim, mute me
15:10:54 <Zakim> nvdbleek should now be muted
15:11:51 <Steven> Steven: Maybe replace the exception with an error?
15:12:05 <Steven> Erik: I had an action item to report on our error handling
15:12:23 <Steven> ... for instance an xpath expression error just halts the processor
15:12:39 <Steven> ... we don't dispatch binding-exception nor bind-exception
15:13:14 <Steven> s/bind-/compute-/
15:13:23 <ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/2012/02/15-forms-minutes.html#action02
15:13:41 <ebruchez> <trackbot> Created ACTION-1868 - Bruchez to summarize problems with error handling and three options for variable type handling.
15:13:51 <Steven> action-1868?
15:13:51 <trackbot> action-1868 -- Erik Bruchez to Bruchez to summarize problems with error handling and three options for variable type handling. -- due 2012-02-22 -- OPEN
15:13:51 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/xforms/actions/1868
15:14:19 <Steven> Erik: There are two areas where you might want to catch errors: xpath exprs and actions
15:14:44 <Steven> ... having an answer to that might help this problem
15:15:18 <Steven> ... we might also have a way to test for a function
15:15:54 <Steven> Steven: If you had a way of testing, how might you alter the form's behaviour? What's the use case?
15:16:30 <nvdbleek> http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt-30/#func-function-available
15:16:32 <Steven> Erik: His use case is for testing implementations
15:16:46 <nvdbleek> This is the XSLT 3.0 function to test if a function is available
15:18:09 <Steven> Erik: We could just import that function.
15:18:17 <ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions-30/#func-function-lookup
15:19:08 <Steven> Erik: That example uses the fact that XPath 3 has functions as returnable values
15:19:36 <nvdbleek> erik: This is not possible in XPath 2.0
15:20:18 <Steven> Erik: function-available is in XSLT, not XPath
15:20:29 <nvdbleek> http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt20/#function-function-available
15:20:40 <Steven> ... so it is in XSLT 2
15:21:21 <Steven> Erik: So we could import the xslt 2 function with the same signature and behavir
15:21:26 <Steven> s/vir/cior/
15:21:32 <Steven> s/cior/vior/
15:21:48 <Steven> Steven: Do we think it's worth doing?
15:21:54 <Steven> Erik: It is valuable.
15:22:45 <Steven> ... but maybe we should check with Erik. It looks like it could help.
15:22:51 <ebruchez> s/Erik/Eric
15:23:34 <Steven> s/Erik:/Eric:/G
15:24:44 <Steven> Steven: Or make the exception an error.
15:24:48 <nvdbleek> http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt-30/#element-try
15:24:52 <Steven> Erik: That would be rather heavy to use.
15:25:52 <Steven> Erik: In our implementation we change the error events a bit comapred with the spec.
15:26:05 <Steven> ... I would be happy to send a suggestion for changes.
15:26:35 <Steven> Steven: If we made bad decisions in the past with error events, we should fix them.
15:27:42 <Steven> Erik: Eric agreed that we should try to fix the problem areas in a chat I had with him
15:27:58 <nvdbleek> zakim, unmute me
15:27:58 <Zakim> nvdbleek should no longer be muted
15:27:59 <Steven> Steven: What are we going to do?
15:28:49 <Steven> Erik: 1) reply to him and mention the choices 2) make errors recoverable 3) import the XSLT function
15:29:08 <Steven> Nick: the error handling is going to be a challenge, and a lot of work
15:29:35 <Steven> ... for actions it is easy, but not for bindings.
15:30:48 <Steven> Steven: it doesn't sound like we can do it before last call.
15:31:09 <Steven> s/ do it / fix error handling /
15:35:56 <Steven> Erik: I can send a message on how we do it, and what impact it would have
15:36:08 <Steven> Steven: Please do, that is action-1868
15:36:20 <Steven> Erik: I can answer Eric's message
15:36:46 <Steven> ACTION: Erik to answer Eric vd Vlist's message on identifying available functions
15:36:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1956 - Answer eric vd vlist's message on identifying available functions [on Erik Bruchez - due 2013-10-02].
15:37:03 <Steven> Topic: Editorial: fixed a few consistency issues with "XML Schema" and
15:37:03 <Steven> code markup
15:37:03 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Sep/0003.html
15:40:07 <Steven> Steven: Looks OK.
15:40:08 <Steven> Topic: ACTION-1955 - Write text for type information for xpath expressions
15:40:08 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Sep/0004.html
15:40:12 <Zakim> -unl
15:40:56 <ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_2.0#Typed_Values
15:41:39 <Zakim> +unl
15:42:11 <Steven> Erik: Although the expression language is a separate module, there is a core xpath element in the language
15:43:44 <Steven> ... it leaves space for other expression languages, but it is hard to know what another language might require, so hard to say anything concrete about it.
15:44:03 <Steven> ... Expressions needs access to types.
15:44:32 <Steven> ... We have three ways to add type information (bind, xsi: and schema)
15:46:50 <Steven> ... but some off-the-shelf schema validators don't annotate values in some cases
15:47:32 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:47:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/25-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:48:02 <Steven> Erik: This means that we need text that says "may" for those cases.
15:48:46 <Steven> ... so it is unclear if we *can* mandate the types being available in all cases
15:51:09 <Steven> ... but this text covers built-in types that are always available.
15:51:22 <Steven> ... I listed all types that *must* be provided
15:52:51 <Steven> ... an XPath processor doesn't know about the xforms variants of the xsd basic types
15:53:31 <Steven> ... so the data model must provide the xsd type to the xpath processor
15:54:12 <Steven> Erik: And the last part, which is what happens if the expression doesn't match the type, an error case
15:55:17 <Steven> ... a run-time error
15:55:24 <Steven> ... that can be recovered from
15:55:37 <Steven> ... so this defines what happens there
15:57:04 <Steven> ... the result is an empty string
15:57:42 <Steven> ... and then we consider that constraints fail.
15:58:11 <Steven> ... or it is as if the expression hasn't run.
15:58:29 <Steven> Steven: Does an event get proagated?
15:58:43 <Steven> Erik: There is no event for that, the only one that we have stops processing.
15:59:31 <Steven> Steven: So we do need one, so that you can catch the error
16:00:57 <Steven> Steven: So how to take this further?
16:01:11 <Steven> Erik: I already have an action item for the error handling.
16:01:36 <Steven> Topic: AOB
16:01:53 <Steven> Steven: Can I ask you Nick to summarise for next week where we are in respect of getting to LC?
16:01:56 <Steven> Nick: OK.
16:02:04 <Zakim> -Steven
16:02:07 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:02:08 <Zakim> -ebruchez
16:02:11 <Zakim> -nvdbleek
16:02:14 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
16:02:14 <Zakim> Attendees were ebruchez, Steven, [IPcaller], nvdbleek, unl
16:02:15 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/25-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:02:36 <Steven> chair: Steven
16:02:39 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/25-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:03:07 <Steven> s/Eric:/Erik:/G
16:03:09 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/25-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:04:22 <Steven> s;s/Erik:/Eric:/G;;
16:04:26 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/25-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:05:08 <Steven> s/ric:/rik:/G
16:05:11 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/25-forms-minutes.html Steven
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