IRC log of html-a11y on 2013-09-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:59 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:53:59 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/19-html-a11y-irc
14:54:23 [LJWatson]: agenda+ Identify Scribe
14:54:51 [LJWatson]: agenda+ canvas issues Path objects and hit regions - concerns in regards to lack of implementations
14:55:30 [paulc]: paulc has joined #html-a11y
14:56:01 [LJWatson]: agenda+ Longdesc update
14:56:15 [LJWatson]: agenda+ Longdesc LC Comments: Process and Responses
14:56:36 [paulc]: zakim, what is the meeting code?
14:56:37 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, paulc.
14:56:42 [LJWatson]: agenda+ Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; Media
14:56:46 [paulc]: zakim, what is the code?
14:56:46 [Zakim]: sorry, paulc, I don't know what conference this is
14:56:51 [LJWatson]: agenda+ Potential TF Participation at TPAC 2013?
14:56:55 [paulc]: trackbot, start meeting
14:56:57 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
14:56:58 [SteveF]: SteveF has joined #html-a11y
14:56:59 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 2119
14:56:59 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 57 minutes ago
14:57:00 [trackbot]: Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:57:00 [trackbot]: Date: 19 September 2013
14:57:02 [LJWatson]: agenda+ HTML 5.1 Objectives -- Open Discussion
14:57:12 [LJWatson]: agenda+ Other Business
14:57:18 [LJWatson]: zakim, save agenda
14:57:24 [Zakim]: ok, LJWatson, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/19-html-a11y-agenda.rdf
14:57:26 [Zakim]: WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
14:57:27 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
14:57:27 [aardrian]: aardrian has joined #html-a11y
14:57:33 [LJWatson]: rrsagent, set logs world-visible
14:57:45 [LJWatson]: Meeting: HTML A11y TF telecon
14:57:45 [paulc]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:57:46 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Microsoft]
14:57:52 [LJWatson]: Chair: Steve Faulkner
14:57:54 [paulc]: zakim, [Microosft] is me
14:57:54 [Zakim]: sorry, paulc, I do not recognize a party named '[Microosft]'
14:57:55 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
14:57:59 [LJWatson]: rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:59 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/19-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
14:58:03 [paulc]: zakim, [Microsoft] is me
14:58:03 [Zakim]: +paulc; got it
14:58:04 [Zakim]: + +1.716.842.aaaa
14:58:18 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller.a]
14:58:21 [SteveF]: zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:58:21 [Zakim]: +SteveF; got it
14:58:43 [cabanier]: cabanier has joined #html-a11y
14:59:07 [aardrian]: zakim, 1.716.842.aaaa is me
14:59:07 [Zakim]: sorry, aardrian, I do not recognize a party named '1.716.842.aaaa'
14:59:41 [aardrian]: zakim, +1.716.842.aaaa is me
14:59:41 [Zakim]: +aardrian; got it
14:59:43 [LJWatson]: zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
14:59:43 [Zakim]: +LJWatson; got it
15:00:09 [Zakim]: +MarkS
15:00:17 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:00:32 [LJWatson]: scribe: Léonie Watson
15:00:39 [LJWatson]: scribenick LJWatson
15:00:45 [cabanier]: zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:00:45 [Zakim]: +cabanier; got it
15:00:51 [LJWatson]: zakim, take up item 1
15:00:51 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from LJWatson]
15:00:58 [LJWatson]: zakim, close item 1
15:00:58 [Zakim]: agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed
15:00:59 [Zakim]: I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:00:59 [Zakim]: 2. canvas issues Path objects and hit regions - concerns in regards to lack of implementations [from LJWatson]
15:01:10 [LJWatson]: zakim,nxt item
15:01:10 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'nxt item', LJWatson
15:01:18 [LJWatson]: zakim, next item
15:01:18 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "canvas issues Path objects and hit regions - concerns in regards to lack of implementations" taken up [from LJWatson]
15:01:25 [Zakim]: +Markku
15:01:41 [Zakim]: +??P39
15:01:42 [Judy]: Judy has joined #html-a11y
15:02:55 [Zakim]: +Judy
15:03:20 [janina]: zakim, who's on the phone?
15:03:20 [Zakim]: On the phone I see paulc, SteveF, aardrian, LJWatson, MarkS, cabanier, Markku, ??P39, Judy
15:03:34 [janina]: zakim, ??P39 is me
15:03:34 [Zakim]: +janina; got it
15:04:26 [Judy]: agenda?
15:04:29 [LJWatson]: agenda+ Using ARIA in HTML heartbeat
15:04:41 [mhakkinen]: mhakkinen has joined #html-a11y
15:05:48 [LJWatson]: zakim, close item 2
15:05:48 [Zakim]: agendum 2, canvas issues Path objects and hit regions - concerns in regards to lack of implementations, closed
15:05:50 [Zakim]: I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:05:50 [Zakim]: 3. Longdesc update [from LJWatson]
15:05:56 [LJWatson]: zakim, next item
15:05:56 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Longdesc update" taken up [from LJWatson]
15:06:32 [LJWatson]: CMN: LCis closed.
15:06:38 [richardschwerdtfeger]: richardschwerdtfeger has joined #html-a11y
15:06:48 [chaals]: -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Longdesc-comments comments received and some proposed responses
15:06:53 [Zakim]: +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:07:13 [LJWatson]: CMN: We have comments. The above link tracks bugs and responses.
15:07:51 [LJWatson]: CMN: My expectation is we can discuss on this call. Each will need approval by the WG, so today is a good time to provide comments.
15:08:23 [LJWatson]: CMN: Expect to work on this today. Proposals should be wrapped up for CFC by tomorrow night.
15:08:44 [LJWatson]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:08:44 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/19-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:09:06 [LJWatson]: CMN: Would like CFC to be underway before next week's TF meeting.
15:09:33 [LJWatson]: JS: Looking to dispose of these by first week in October?
15:09:45 [LJWatson]: CMN: Yes, as soon as we reasonably can.
15:10:34 [LJWatson]: CMN: We'll then need to send responses back to commenters. We could end up in a cycle if commenters are still not satisfied, but we'll cross that bridge if we come to it.
15:11:08 [LJWatson]: MS: No further progress on testing.
15:11:45 [LJWatson]: CMN: If anyone is willing to stay on IRC after the meeting to look at testing that would be helpful.
15:12:02 [LJWatson]: JS: RC2119 requirements are satisfied?
15:12:52 [LJWatson]: CMN: We've only run tests on two implementations, so we don't have two distinct implementations yet. We need more test results.
15:13:06 [LJWatson]: AR: I've committed to NVDA testing.
15:13:18 [LJWatson]: CMN: Help after this call to hammer through some testing would be good.
15:13:34 [MarkS]: -> https://github.com/chaals/longdesc-tests links to tests
15:13:34 [aardrian]: I'll hang out after call on IRC. I have maybe a half hour.
15:13:45 [LJWatson]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:13:45 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/19-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:14:11 [LJWatson]: JB: Question about a bug from last March and plan 2014.
15:14:50 [paulc]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21341
15:14:59 [SteveF]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Sep/0044.html &
15:15:00 [SteveF]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Sep/0045.html
15:15:10 [LJWatson]: JB: The bug caused somedebtate about obsoleting longdesc. The bug related to the first PWD. Mark clarified this on list today, Robin has replied.
15:15:56 [LJWatson]: JB: The bug doesn't yet include a link to Mark's clarification. Mark can you take care of that/?
15:16:01 [MarkS]: s/no/now
15:16:31 [LJWatson]: PC: Was mystified by your reference to emails from Mark and Robin. They haven't arrived to my inbox yet.
15:16:54 [LJWatson]: JB: Went to the public list.
15:17:15 [LJWatson]: zakim, take up item 2
15:17:15 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "canvas issues Path objects and hit regions - concerns in regards to lack of implementations" taken up [from LJWatson]
15:17:16 [Judy]: s/public list/public admin list
15:17:36 [LJWatson]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:17:36 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/19-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:18:29 [LJWatson]: RS: Focus rings for custom and system have been implemented by Chrome canary for Mac and Windows.
15:18:44 [LJWatson]: RS: Also have implementations where you can pass a path to them.
15:19:12 [LJWatson]: RS: No other browsers have support.
15:19:44 [paulc]: s/rick/rik/
15:21:15 [paulc]: q+
15:21:22 [LJWatson]: RS: We don't have an implementation of those functions with the path object in Chrome. No browser has implemented the full path object spec.
15:21:26 [LJWatson]: RC: Agreed.
15:21:43 [cabanier]: from Google: "I'm not as sure about drawCustomFocusRing. The spec says "If the user has
15:21:43 [cabanier]: requested the use of particular focus rings", but I'm not aware of any
15:21:43 [cabanier]: platform API we could use to query that. To the best of my knowledge,
15:21:43 [cabanier]: assistive technology that draws its own focus rings, like ZoomText,
15:21:44 [cabanier]: normally draws an additional focus ring with extra padding, rather than
15:21:44 [cabanier]: replacing the system one."
15:22:00 [LJWatson]: RS: I sent a note to Frank Olivier at MS, and it has not been implemented in the beta of IE11.
15:22:01 [cabanier]: from google: So, what we implemented in Chrome for drawCustomFocusRing is basically just
15:22:01 [cabanier]: a function that notifies assistive technology of the bounding rect of the
15:22:01 [cabanier]: focused region within the canvas
15:22:02 [paulc]: I presume that the Google implementation is in Blink code base and that Opera (based on Blink) would pick up the same implementation but that would not be a 2nd independent implementation.
15:22:26 [LJWatson]: RS: We have a defect open, a design spec written, and we're trying to get it prioritised.
15:22:57 [LJWatson]: RS: WillOpera pick up the focus ring implementations if they're available in Canary?
15:23:19 [LJWatson]: CMN: If they're Chrome specific, Opera won't get them, if they're Chromium they will.
15:23:28 [LJWatson]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:23:28 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/19-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:24:10 [LJWatson]: RS: Also sent a note to James Craig at Apple, for implementation in Webkit.
15:24:33 [MarkS]: q+
15:24:46 [LJWatson]: PC: Canwe characterise this implementation in terms of the spec?
15:24:55 [SteveF]: ack paulc
15:24:59 [LJWatson]: RS: They're in a bit of a blob in the spec.
15:25:15 [LJWatson]: PC: If you're talking about features at risk, the relevant spec sections need to be identified.
15:25:22 [LJWatson]: RS: We're talking about two APIs.
15:25:33 [LJWatson]: JS: Paul is referring to passing CR on the spec.
15:25:52 [LJWatson]: RS: Haven't identified all sections that relate to path. But the APIs that relate to path are at risk.
15:26:12 [LJWatson]: MC: No browser has this on by default. We have an experimental implementation at best.
15:26:29 [LJWatson]: JS: That's not relevant, it just needs to be agreed as implementable.
15:26:50 [LJWatson]: PC: Non shipping versions must have the feature for at least one month.
15:26:53 [paulc]: Permissive exit criteria: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Aug/0294.html
15:27:07 [Zakim]: +Cynthia_Shelly
15:27:12 [SteveF]: canvas 2d context editors draft http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/2dcontext/html5_canvas_CR/
15:27:18 [LJWatson]: MC: So we have one extra API. It may be we don't have to drop it.
15:27:27 [LJWatson]: RS: I don't think it needs to be dropped.
15:27:42 [LJWatson]: RS: It was just a couple of weeks work on Canary.
15:27:51 [LJWatson]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:27:51 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/19-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:28:15 [paulc]: Canvas interoperability document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/misc/canvas-implementation.html
15:29:05 [LJWatson]: PC: This is the interoperability document. It has path object in section 7 as not implemented, and focus rings in sections 12 d, e, and f.
15:29:14 [LJWatson]: PC: Which of these is there an implementation of?
15:29:36 [LJWatson]: RS: d and e of section 12. There are other aspects of the spec that relate to path objects not included here though.
15:30:02 [LJWatson]: PC: Why wasn't that pointed out?
15:30:17 [LJWatson]: RS: Ddn't realise I had to do that.
15:30:23 [LJWatson]: JS: So path is not at risk?
15:30:29 [LJWatson]: RS: Path objects are at risk.
15:30:46 [LJWatson]: PC: The CR says Path objects.
15:31:06 [LJWatson]: PC: So all variants that use Path objects are at risk too?
15:31:09 [LJWatson]: RS: Yes.
15:31:20 [LJWatson]: PC: Hit regions (section 14) are also at risk?
15:31:31 [LJWatson]: RS: Yes, thought it had been agreed to move it out to the next version of canvas.
15:31:36 [Zakim]: +David_MacDonald
15:31:54 [LJWatson]: PC: Don't believe there is official agreement on that.
15:32:11 [David_]: David_ has joined #html-a11y
15:32:38 [LJWatson]: RS: At the F2F in Lyon I Met with Philipe and Rick, and we discussed moving it to the next version of Canvas. They wanted to consider using something other than Path.
15:32:41 [MarkS]: q-
15:32:58 [LJWatson]: RC: We have to give that more time.
15:33:10 [LJWatson]: MC: We did discuss this though.
15:33:50 [LJWatson]: RS: We won't get any implementations. December 2014?
15:34:01 [LJWatson]: PC: I wouldn't assume a date. Leave that to the chairs.
15:34:08 [LJWatson]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:34:08 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/19-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:34:50 [LJWatson]: PC: Pink indicates no implementation.
15:35:01 [paulc]: 12. Drawing paths to the canvasInteroperable
15:35:16 [paulc]: d. drawSystemFocusRing() e. drawCustomFocusRing()
15:35:26 [LJWatson]: RS: We do have implementations for section 12 D and E.
15:35:52 [LJWatson]: MC: 12 E is implemented, but it isn't a correct implementation.
15:36:05 [LJWatson]: MC: It uses a shortcut to draw the focus ring.
15:36:16 [paulc]: I will note as well that we don't have tests for these features.
15:36:37 [LJWatson]: PC: Red indicates no implementations and no tests.
15:37:04 [LJWatson]: RS: I sent tests to Mark.
15:37:12 [LJWatson]: MS: I'll take care of that.
15:37:27 [LJWatson]: PC: We have no evidence about the status of Path objects?
15:37:33 [LJWatson]: MC: They're not implemented.
15:38:05 [LJWatson]: PC: Rich, you're suggesting hit region being removed from the spec, providing it returned (possibly in a change format) in a later version?
15:38:15 [LJWatson]: RS: Yes.
15:38:49 [LJWatson]: PC: Would you be ok to doing the same with Path objects?
15:38:53 [LJWatson]: RS: Yes.
15:39:06 [LJWatson]: rrsagent, makeminutes
15:39:06 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'makeminutes', LJWatson. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:39:14 [LJWatson]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:39:14 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/19-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:39:26 [LJWatson]: zakim, next item
15:39:26 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Longdesc update" taken up [from LJWatson]
15:39:30 [Zakim]: -cabanier
15:39:33 [LJWatson]: zakim, close item 3
15:39:33 [Zakim]: agendum 3, Longdesc update, closed
15:39:35 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:39:35 [Zakim]: 4. Longdesc LC Comments: Process and Responses [from LJWatson]
15:39:39 [LJWatson]: zakim, next item
15:39:39 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "Longdesc LC Comments: Process and Responses" taken up [from LJWatson]
15:39:51 [LJWatson]: zakim, close item 4
15:39:51 [Zakim]: agendum 4, Longdesc LC Comments: Process and Responses, closed
15:39:52 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:39:52 [Zakim]: 5. Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; Media [from LJWatson]
15:39:57 [LJWatson]: zakim, next item
15:39:57 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; Media" taken up [from LJWatson]
15:40:43 [MarkS]: LW: no new bugs that require task force to follow. focusing on longdesc testing.
15:41:34 [LJWatson]: SF: API mapping. We've been looking at the scope of the document.
15:42:11 [Zakim]: -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:42:19 [paulc]: q+
15:42:19 [LJWatson]: zakim, next item
15:42:20 [Zakim]: I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LJWatson
15:42:50 [LJWatson]: PC: The API mapping document. It's been published as a heartbeat?
15:42:53 [LJWatson]: SF: Yes.
15:43:09 [LJWatson]: PC: Thought the TF wanted a hand in publishing that document?
15:43:12 [LJWatson]: JB: Yes.
15:43:18 [LJWatson]: PC: Did someone open a bug on that doc?
15:43:49 [LJWatson]: JB: It was a misfire. I don't know whether there is a bug on each one.
15:44:12 [LJWatson]: PC: We're talking about two documents. ARIA in HTML is in the hands of the WG and on today's agenda.
15:44:34 [LJWatson]: PC: For the API mapping doc I have a recollection that the TF wanted to be part of the publication process.
15:45:04 [LJWatson]: JB: It's listed as a TF document, so should be jointly managed. This wasn't properly referenced before.
15:46:11 [LJWatson]: zakim, next item
15:46:12 [Zakim]: I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LJWatson
15:46:19 [Judy]: ack p
15:46:21 [LJWatson]: zakim, next item
15:46:21 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "Potential TF Participation at TPAC 2013?" taken up [from LJWatson]
15:46:48 [chaals]: q+
15:46:52 [Judy]: q+
15:46:55 [LJWatson]: MS: We spoke about discussing longdesc at TPAC.
15:47:26 [SteveF]: ack chaals
15:47:30 [LJWatson]: CMN: May be able to attend the Test the Web Forward event.
15:47:36 [SteveF]: ack judy
15:47:59 [LJWatson]: JB: We wanted to clear all longdesc LC comments before we bring to the WG.
15:48:26 [LJWatson]: JB: Discussion today would be premature.
15:48:53 [LJWatson]: PC: Are you presuming you can get integrated before it goes into TR?
15:48:58 [Zakim]: -Cynthia_Shelly
15:49:07 [LJWatson]: JB: No. We're going through the process that's described though.
15:49:28 [LJWatson]: JS: We hope to have our testing ready so CR entrance and exit is swift.
15:49:33 [LJWatson]: PC: CR is optional.
15:49:58 [LJWatson]: CMN: We don't have any anticipation of integrating until we're ready to leave CR. That's the minimun bar. Question is what happens then?
15:50:09 [LJWatson]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:50:09 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/19-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:50:55 [LJWatson]: PC: Ok. Decide whether to go to PR, or fold into the spec.
15:51:19 [LJWatson]: zakim, next item
15:51:19 [Zakim]: agendum 7. "HTML 5.1 Objectives -- Open Discussion" taken up [from LJWatson]
15:51:39 [LJWatson]: zakim, agenda?
15:51:39 [Zakim]: I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
15:51:40 [Zakim]: 7. HTML 5.1 Objectives -- Open Discussion [from LJWatson]
15:51:40 [Zakim]: 8. Other Business [from LJWatson]
15:51:40 [Zakim]: 9. Using ARIA in HTML heartbeat [from LJWatson]
15:52:13 [LJWatson]: xakim, take up item 8
15:52:34 [LJWatson]: zakim, close item 7
15:52:34 [Zakim]: agendum 7, HTML 5.1 Objectives -- Open Discussion, closed
15:52:35 [Zakim]: I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:52:35 [Zakim]: 8. Other Business [from LJWatson]
15:52:47 [LJWatson]: zakim, take up item 9
15:52:47 [Zakim]: agendum 9. "Using ARIA in HTML heartbeat" taken up [from LJWatson]
15:54:31 [LJWatson]: JS: Will update Using ARIA in HTML.
15:54:42 [LJWatson]: DM: The version in Github?
15:54:51 [LJWatson]: SF: No, we produced a heartbeat draft for CFC.
15:55:40 [LJWatson]: SF: Process is that the editors draft will become the next version for TR.
15:55:58 [LJWatson]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:55:58 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/09/19-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
15:56:15 [janina]: http://htmlwg.org/heartbeat/WD-aria-in-html-20130822/
15:56:58 [Zakim]: -Markku
15:57:28 [paulc]: quit
15:57:41 [Zakim]: -paulc
15:58:55 [Zakim]: -Judy
15:59:05 [Zakim]: -janina
15:59:07 [Zakim]: -SteveF
15:59:39 [MarkS]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:59:39 [Zakim]: On the phone I see aardrian, LJWatson, MarkS, David_MacDonald
15:59:44 [chaals]: Topic: post-meeting testathon
15:59:55 [LJWatson]: zakim, please part
15:59:55 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees were paulc, SteveF, aardrian, LJWatson, MarkS, cabanier, Markku, Judy, janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cynthia_Shelly, David_MacDonald
15:59:55 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:00:15 [LJWatson]: rrsagent, please part
16:00:15 [RRSAgent]: I see no action items