21:07:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #indie-ui
21:07:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/08/21-indie-ui-irc
21:07:29 <rich_simpson> rich_simpson has joined #indie-ui
21:07:30 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
21:07:30 <Zakim> agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina]
21:07:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
21:07:32 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be INDIE
21:07:32 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_Indie()5:00PM already started
21:07:33 <trackbot> Meeting: Independent User Interface Task Force Teleconference
21:07:33 <trackbot> Date: 21 August 2013
21:07:50 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2013Aug/0006.html
21:07:51 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
21:07:51 <Zakim> agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina]
21:07:55 <MichaelC> chair: Janina_Sajka
21:08:06 <janina> zakim, close item 1
21:08:06 <Zakim> agendum 1, preview agenda with items from two minutes, closed
21:08:07 <Zakim> I see 20 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:08:07 <Zakim> 2. TPAC2013 http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2013 [from janina]
21:08:09 <janina> zakim, take up item 2
21:08:09 <Zakim> agendum 2. "TPAC2013 http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2013" taken up [from janina]
21:08:53 <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the phone?
21:08:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see jasonjgw, Michael_Cooper, janina, James_Craig, Andy_Heath, Rich_Simpson
21:09:19 <jasonjgw> Janina notes that visa applications can be time-consuming and that participants should take this into account in making applications.
21:09:30 <janina> zakim, next item
21:09:30 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Events Requirements -- Status & Discussion" taken up [from janina]
21:09:45 <janina> agenda?
21:10:06 <MichaelC> zakim, clear agenda
21:10:06 <Zakim> agenda cleared
21:10:16 <janina> agenda+ preview agenda with items from two minutes
21:10:16 <janina> agenda+ TPAC2013 http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2013
21:10:16 <janina> agenda+ Editor's Report
21:10:16 <janina> agenda+ Discussion of potential alternatives to DOMImplementation::hasFeature()
21:10:19 <janina> agenda+ Events Comment http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2013Aug/0003.html
21:10:22 <janina> agenda+ Events Requirements Update
21:10:24 <janina> agenda+ Events Testing Update
21:10:27 <janina> agenda+ User Context Update
21:10:28 <MichaelC> close item 1
21:10:29 <janina> agenda+ User Context Issues & Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/products/3
21:10:30 <MichaelC> close item 21
21:10:32 <janina> agenda+ Events Issues & Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/products/2
21:10:32 <MichaelC> close item 2
21:10:35 <janina> agenda+ Scribe for our Next Teleconference (on 4 September at 21:00Z)
21:10:43 <MichaelC> zakim, take up next item
21:10:43 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Discussion of potential alternatives to DOMImplementation::hasFeature()" taken up [from janina]
21:10:49 <MichaelC> zakim, take up item 3
21:10:49 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Editor's Report" taken up [from janina]
21:11:30 <jcraig> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-events.html#UIFocusRequestEvent
21:13:05 <jasonjgw> James notes the addition of an enumeration for focus types (of focus request events in the Events module). This is in line with emerging WebIDL conventions.
21:14:14 <jasonjgw> He notes further IDL changes - initializers etc., based on comments received.
21:14:23 <janina> agenda+ Be Donezakim, next item
21:14:36 <MichaelC> drop item 12
21:14:41 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
21:14:41 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Discussion of potential alternatives to DOMImplementation::hasFeature()" taken up [from janina]
21:14:50 <jcraig> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-events.html#hasFeature
21:16:19 <jasonjgw> James notes that direct object detection (testing for the existence of an object in the code) is often possible.
21:16:29 <jcraig> "org.w3c.indieui.events.collapserequest"
21:17:24 <jasonjgw> has been proposed, but the required interface has now been deprecated
21:18:34 <jasonjgw> James is seeking input as to how to support object detection appropriately.
21:19:57 <jcraig> DOM spec has deprecated hasFeature, so this is no longer useful
21:20:16 <jasonjgw> He clarifies that the problem to be solved is that of detecting whether given events are defined/supported by the implementation.
21:20:27 <jcraig> Need a way to do IndieUI object detection, or "implementation" detection for specific event types
21:20:37 <jcraig> http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-domimplementation-hasfeature
21:20:51 <jcraig> Note: hasFeature() originally would report whether the user agent claimed to support a given DOM feature, but experience proved it was not nearly as reliable or granular as simply checking whether the desired interfaces, attributes, or methods existed. As such, it should no longer be used, but continues to exist (and simply returns true) so that old pages don't stop working. SVG features are a separate mechanism that reused the existing method, so they co[CUT]
21:20:51 <jcraig> to work as a special case.
21:22:02 <janina> q?
21:22:57 <jasonjgw> Janina raises the issue of whether other W3C activities (DOM 3, 4, etc.), may address this need.
21:23:23 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
21:23:33 <jasonjgw> The question is whether there is a cross-working-group dependency here.
21:23:39 <janina> q?
21:23:50 <Zakim> +??P1
21:26:26 <jasonjgw> James suggests finding alternative mechanisms rather than challenging the deprecation of the existing interface by the DOM WG.
21:27:38 <jcraig> Node.isSupported()
21:27:54 <jasonjgw> could be an alternative mechanism.
21:28:14 <jcraig> if (window.indieui.events.collapserequest)
21:29:02 <jasonjgw> Michael asks which of the alternatives is most widely used and why the "official" method has been deprecated.
21:29:36 <jasonjgw> James understands that some implementations implemented the features but not the identifying strings and hence object detection proved more reliable.
21:29:50 <janina> q?
21:31:13 <jasonjgw> Michael clarifies in response to a question that the detection mechanism may still be needed even if none of the IndieUI events is defined in the spec as optional, due to non-conforming/partially conforming implementations.
21:32:24 <jcraig> In the same spec, Node.isSupported() is listed http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-node-issupported
21:33:28 <jcraig> W3 version is exactly the same
21:33:29 <jcraig> http://www.w3.org/TR/domcore/#dom-domimplementation-hasfeature
21:34:58 <jcraig> Need to ask DOM group if there is similar concern with Node.isSupported and if not, is this okay to use? http://www.w3.org/TR/domcore/#dom-node-issupported
21:35:04 <jasonjgw> Michael clarifies that HTML and Web Applications working groups are relevant.
21:37:06 <jasonjgw> Michael notes a range of communication options - via informal questions, between respective wg chairs, or formal comments on their spec.
21:38:04 <jasonjgw> James takes an action to make the contact and raise the issue with Web Applications wg in the first instance.
21:38:24 <jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to ask DOM group about Node.isSupported http://www.w3.org/TR/domcore/#dom-node-issupported is okay to use, given that hasFeature has been deprecated: http://www.w3.org/TR/domcore/#dom-domimplementation-hasfeature
21:38:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-66 - Ask dom group about node.issupported http://www.w3.org/tr/domcore/#dom-node-issupported is okay to use, given that hasfeature has been deprecated: http://www.w3.org/tr/domcore/#dom-domimplementation-hasfeature [on James Craig - due 2013-08-28].
21:38:59 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
21:38:59 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Events Comment http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2013Aug/0003.html" taken up [from janina]
21:39:37 <jasonjgw> These are normative issues that have been resolved (as noted in editor's report above).
21:40:29 <jasonjgw> James undertakes to follow up on the discussion thread.
21:42:17 <jcraig> New IME-API draft: http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-ime-api-20130815/
21:43:44 <jasonjgw> Input method editor spec noted in discussion - updated working draft of potential relevance to our group.
21:43:52 <jasonjgw> Michael notes we should probably review it.
21:44:46 <jcraig> James' response: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JulSep/0324.html
21:45:30 <jasonjgw> Janina notes that it will be taken up in PF.
21:46:35 <jasonjgw> zakim, next item
21:46:35 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Events Requirements Update" taken up [from janina]
21:47:11 <jasonjgw> This is on Michael's agenda to continue to work on, starting from the second step - extracting requirements from use cases.
21:48:10 <jasonjgw> He also notes that we need to consider whether, and if so when to publish a formal requirements document - ideally prior to Last Call of Events.
21:48:25 <jcraig> s/.html/.html In general, much improved (black hole <canvas> editor no longer used as primary example), but still has some clarification questions. I think this was more of an ARIA 2.0 issue (for custom RTE) and it doesn't really relate to IndieUI./
21:49:08 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
21:49:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/21-indie-ui-minutes.html jcraig
21:49:21 <jasonjgw> It could be published as a note on the TR page, or as a document elsewhere on the W3C site (but it may be preferable to do so otherwise than in the wiki, where it may languish and fail to attract review).
21:50:00 <Zakim> -Rich_Simpson
21:50:00 <jcraig> s/clarification questions./clarification questions. Thread ongoing./
21:50:54 <jasonjgw> Janina notes that published requirements are more helpful and useful notwithstanding the additional work involved in their preparation.
21:51:54 <jasonjgw> Michael notes the importance of encouraging public review and that a formal W3C note may be the best way to achieve this (but he isn't arguing for it strongly at this point).
21:52:06 <MichaelC> action: cooper to make a proposal for formalizing IndieUI requirements
21:52:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-67 - Make a proposal for formalizing indieui requirements [on Michael Cooper - due 2013-08-28].
21:52:24 <janina> zakim, next item
21:52:24 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Events Testing Update" taken up [from janina]
21:52:54 <janina> scribe: janina
21:53:21 <janina> jason: we agreed to prepare question for implementers
21:53:31 <janina> jason: will we be able to synthesize events?
21:53:54 <janina> jason: Working on details of this with Michael, but no draft to sshare with the WG yet
21:54:58 <janina> zakim, next item
21:54:58 <Zakim> agendum 8. "User Context Update" taken up [from janina]
21:56:39 <jasonjgw> Andy is working on use cases and plans to liaise with Rich Schwerdtfeger on the subject as opportunity permits.
21:56:42 <jasonjgw> Work is ongoing.
21:58:02 <janina> jason: reviewing ISO 24751 with ref to doc Rich Schwerdtfeger circulated on Xtech
22:04:08 <jasonjgw> There is discussion of a document on need/preference profile construction (obtaining needs/preferences from users) circulated on W3C lists recently.
22:04:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #indie-ui
22:04:46 <jcraig> ACTION-63?
22:04:46 <trackbot> ACTION-63 -- Michael Cooper to Need a glossary section for term references -- due 2013-08-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW
22:04:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/actions/63
22:05:33 <jasonjgw> This item can be closed.
22:05:39 <jcraig> RESOLVED: Close ACTION-63
22:05:53 <jasonjgw> zakim, list participants
22:05:53 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jasonjgw, Michael_Cooper, janina, James_Craig, Andy_Heath, +1.646.707.aaaa, Rich_Simposon, Rich_Simpson
22:05:57 <Zakim> -James_Craig
22:06:05 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
22:06:05 <jcraig> jcraig has left #indie-ui
22:06:08 <jasonjgw> rrsagent, make minutes
22:06:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/08/21-indie-ui-minutes.html jasonjgw
22:06:13 <Zakim> -Andy_Heath
22:06:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> I tried to get in.
22:11:01 <Zakim> -jasonjgw
22:15:28 <Zakim> WAI_Indie()5:00PM has ended
22:15:30 <Zakim> Attendees were jasonjgw, Michael_Cooper, janina, James_Craig, Andy_Heath, +1.646.707.aaaa, Rich_Simposon, Rich_Simpson
22:15:55 <janina> janina has changed the topic to: IndieUI Teleconference; Wednesday 4 September at 21:00Z for 60 minutes; Zakim 46343#