IRC log of indie-ui on 2013-06-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:57:41 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #indie-ui

20:57:41 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/06/26-indie-ui-irc

20:57:43 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

20:57:43 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #indie-ui

20:57:45 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be INDIE

20:57:45 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot, I see WAI_Indie()5:00PM already started

20:57:46 [trackbot]

Meeting: Independent User Interface Task Force Teleconference

20:57:46 [trackbot]

Date: 26 June 2013

20:57:58 [janina_]

zakim, who's on the phone?

20:57:59 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ??P0

20:58:06 [janina_]

zakim, ??P0 is me

20:58:06 [Zakim]

+janina_; got it

20:58:41 [jasonjgw]

jasonjgw has joined #indie-ui

20:58:59 [janina_]

Meeting: IndieUI Task Force Teleconference

20:58:59 [janina_]

Chair: Janina_Sajka

20:58:59 [janina_]

agenda+ preview agenda with items from two minutes

20:58:59 [janina_]

agenda+ TPAC2013 https://www.w3.org/2013/11/TPAC/

20:58:59 [janina_]

agenda+ Editor's Update

20:59:02 [janina_]

agenda+ Publishing an Events Stabilization Draft

20:59:04 [janina_]

agenda+ Events Module Timeline

20:59:06 [Zakim]

+??P2

20:59:07 [janina_]

agenda+ Testing Events Discussion

20:59:09 [janina_]

agenda+ Requirement gathering for User Contexts: next steps http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2013Jun/0022.html

20:59:12 [janina_]

agenda+ User Contexts: identifying AT [See Below]

20:59:15 [janina_]

agenda+ User Context Issues & Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/products/3

20:59:18 [janina_]

agenda+ Events Issues & Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/products/2

20:59:21 [janina_]

agenda+ Renaming POR: Open Discussion

20:59:23 [janina_]

agenda+ Scribe for our Next Teleconference (on 10 July at 21:00Z)

20:59:26 [janina_]

agenda+ Be Done

21:00:27 [Zakim]

+ +1.412.901.aaaa

21:01:15 [Zakim]

+James_Craig

21:01:24 [jcraig]

jcraig has joined #indie-ui

21:01:27 [rich_]

rich_ has joined #indie-ui

21:01:53 [jcraig]

zakim, who is on the call?

21:01:53 [Zakim]

On the phone I see janina_, ??P2, +1.412.901.aaaa, James_Craig

21:01:54 [Zakim]

+[Apple]

21:02:00 [hober]

Zakim, Apple has me

21:02:00 [Zakim]

+hober; got it

21:02:42 [jcraig]

Zakim, aaaa is Rich_Simpson

21:02:42 [Zakim]

+Rich_Simpson; got it

21:02:45 [Zakim]

+??P5

21:03:08 [jcraig]

Zakim, Rich_Simpson is rich_

21:03:08 [Zakim]

+rich_; got it

21:03:28 [jcraig]

Zakim, ??P2 is Jason_White

21:03:28 [Zakim]

+Jason_White; got it

21:03:31 [MichaelC]

zakim, ??P2 is Jason_White

21:03:31 [Zakim]

I already had ??P2 as Jason_White, MichaelC

21:03:55 [MichaelC]

zakim, rich_ is Rich_Simpson

21:03:55 [Zakim]

+Rich_Simpson; got it

21:04:41 [rich_simpson]

Zakim, I am Rich_Simpson

21:04:41 [Zakim]

ok, rich_simpson, I now associate you with Rich_Simpson

21:04:54 [jcraig]

Zakim, who is on the call?

21:04:54 [Zakim]

On the phone I see janina_, Jason_White, Rich_Simpson, James_Craig, [Apple], Michael_Cooper

21:04:57 [Zakim]

[Apple] has hober

21:05:11 [jcraig]

Zakim, I am James_Craig

21:05:11 [Zakim]

ok, jcraig, I now associate you with James_Craig

21:06:03 [janina_]

zakim, take up item 1

21:06:03 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina_]

21:06:23 [MichaelC]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2013Jun/0056.html

21:07:00 [jcraig]

agenda?

21:07:08 [jasonjgw]

The purpJJJJanina explains that the purpose is to introduce news relevant to the group and make any adjustments to the agenda.

21:07:12 [hober]

Scribe: jasonjgw

21:07:19 [jasonjgw]

Michael notes the technical plenary meeting page.

21:07:21 [MichaelC]

-> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2013 TPAC 2013 for IndieUI

21:08:42 [jasonjgw]

Visa requirements are noted, which must be addressed in good time prior to the meeting.

21:10:12 [MichaelC]

s/The purpJJJJanina/Janina/

21:10:55 [jcraig]

q+ to ask what this means: "There are slots for up to 4 people to join [Zakim] at a given time. "

21:11:03 [Zakim]

+Rich.a

21:11:12 [jasonjgw]

Also noteRRRRegistratJJJJanina notes that registration information is on the page and that forms should be completed. More details of the meeting will be added in due course. Thursday and Friday 14 and 15 November are the meeting dates.

21:11:33 [MichaelC]

zakim, Rich.a is Rich_Schwerdtfeger

21:11:33 [Zakim]

+Rich_Schwerdtfeger; got it

21:11:49 [jcraig]

s/noteRRRRegistratJJJJanina/Janina/

21:12:53 [jcraig]

ack me

21:12:53 [Zakim]

James_Craig, you wanted to ask what this means: "There are slots for up to 4 people to join [Zakim] at a given time. "

21:13:33 [richardschwerdtfeger]

richardschwerdtfeger has joined #indie-ui

21:13:40 [jasonjgw]

Michael clarifies that typically 4 slots are reserved on the bridge at face to face meetings, but more can be requested if necessary.

21:14:58 [jcraig]

ISO-24752?

21:15:21 [jcraig]

http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=42311

21:15:43 [jcraig]

ISO-24751 http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=41521

21:16:07 [jasonjgw]

Janina notes the Universal Remote Console specification, ISO 24752 - means of negotiating remote console access to devices. Also noted is ISO 24751 considers how to support user preferences, and therefore has relevance to our work.

21:16:31 [jasonjgw]

There's a registry associated with 24751.

21:17:13 [hober]

jasonjgw: access to ISO documents is different than with the W3C; will we be able to get copies of these documents?

21:17:21 [hober]

janina_: yes

21:18:26 [jasonjgw]

Jason and Janina discuss accessibility of the specifications, to be continued off-line.

21:18:48 [jasonjgw]

zakim, next item

21:18:48 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "TPAC2013 https://www.w3.org/2013/11/TPAC/" taken up [from janina_]

21:18:56 [MichaelC]

zakim, close this item

21:18:56 [Zakim]

agendum 2 closed

21:18:57 [Zakim]

I see 11 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

21:18:57 [Zakim]

3. Editor's Update [from janina_]

21:18:58 [MichaelC]

zakim, next item

21:18:58 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "Editor's Update" taken up [from janina_]

21:20:20 [jcraig]

ACTION-55?

21:20:20 [trackbot]

ACTION-55 -- James Craig to add DOMImplementation.hasFeature() specifics for IndieUI Events -- due 2013-06-24 -- OPEN

21:20:20 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/actions/55

21:20:26 [jasonjgw]

James notes technical errata and notes that the basic IndieUI module is in WebKit under an implementation flag. Work on keyboard operation is ongoing. There are two actions to complete prior to next heartbeat draft of Events.

21:20:51 [jcraig]

ACTION-56?

21:20:51 [trackbot]

ACTION-56 -- James Craig to determine how to add interface for accessing interface constants, (e.g. valuechangerequest.UNKNOWN = 0; valuechangerequest.INCREMENT = 1; valuechangerequest.INCREMENT_SMALL = 2;) so authors don't have to memorize all these integers. -- due 2013-06-24 -- OPEN

21:20:52 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/actions/56

21:22:12 [jasonjgw]

The first is to allow authors to determine which features have been implemented. Also action 56, to create a property of the window object to define constants for values (sliders etc.).

21:24:30 [jasonjgw]

James clarifies that parts of IndieUI Events have been implemented, including the infrastructure required.

21:25:29 [jasonjgw]

Janina raises the question of whether Blink (Chromium) will write a separate implementation or take the WebKit code, and this will affect implementation discussions later.

21:26:08 [jasonjgw]

Value change and dismiss request James thinks have been implemented.

21:26:11 [jasonjgw]

zakim, next item

21:26:11 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "Publishing an Events Stabilization Draft" taken up [from janina_]

21:26:35 [jcraig]

first IndieUI commit for WebKit https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117367

21:27:25 [jcraig]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/products/2

21:28:51 [jasonjgw]

James explains that there are 14 actions and 4 issues pertaining to IndieUI 1.0 events. He notes issues with media events, mark requests (selection, drag/drop) which all need to be added to the spec. These may or may not be included in version 1.0, subject to working group decisions.

21:29:11 [jasonjgw]

Last Call later this year may be feasible on this basis.

21:29:31 [jcraig]

point-of-regard focus and blur events also need to go into 1.0

21:29:35 [jasonjgw]

Janina suggests moving to Last Call sooner rather than later.

21:29:54 [jcraig]

ACTION-58?

21:29:54 [trackbot]

ACTION-58 -- James Craig to add another UIEvent for point-of-regard focus and blur (separate from keyboard focus/blur) -- due 2013-06-28 -- OPEN

21:29:54 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/actions/58

21:30:45 [jasonjgw]

Michael notes the need to formalize and clarify requirements so that it can be assured at the CR stage that the spec meets its requirements.

21:31:41 [jasonjgw]

Janina notes that a sooner last call entails a less ambitious 1.0 spec.

21:31:43 [jcraig]

Automated IndieUI tests starting here: http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/indieui/

21:32:20 [jasonjgw]

Michael clarifies that the time-frame under discussion is consistent with clarifying the requirements, as necessary.

21:33:25 [jasonjgw]

James suggests raising certain issues with the Web Applications working group - event object changes require coordination.

21:34:24 [janina_]

q?

21:34:55 [jasonjgw]

Michael suggests including requests for feedback on these points in the heartbeat draft, and we can be sure to raise the questions with them. It's also important to have well documented requirements associated with potentially controversial changes that necessitate inter-group coordination.

21:35:42 [jcraig]

Appendix B. Normative changes since the last public working draft https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-events.html#changelist

21:36:03 [jasonjgw]

zakim, next item

21:36:03 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "Events Module Timeline" taken up [from janina_]

21:36:47 [jasonjgw]

zakim, close item 5

21:36:47 [Zakim]

agendum 5, Events Module Timeline, closed

21:36:48 [Zakim]

I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

21:36:48 [Zakim]

6. Testing Events Discussion [from janina_]

21:37:05 [jasonjgw]

zakim, next item

21:37:05 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "Testing Events Discussion" taken up [from janina_]

21:37:14 [jcraig]

q+ to mention Automated WebKit tests for IndieUI starting here: http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/indieui/

21:38:35 [jasonjgw]

Janina explains the need to prepare for testing well ahead of last call. It should be happenging for events approximately now.

21:39:40 [jasonjgw]

There is also a question regarding tools to be adopted for handling test cases.

21:40:11 [jasonjgw]

Michael notes that there are several testing harnesses available, including a W3C harness and the one used by PF for Aria.

21:40:59 [jasonjgw]

Michael also notes that testable requirements need to be identified. There must be two implementations of every normative requirement.

21:41:06 [janina_]

q?

21:41:40 [MichaelC]

ack j

21:41:40 [Zakim]

James_Craig, you wanted to mention Automated WebKit tests for IndieUI starting here: http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/indieui/

21:41:46 [jasonjgw]

He clarifies further that the events need not be tested for all HTML elements, for example.

21:42:45 [jasonjgw]

James acknowledges the difficulty of sharing automated tests among implementations, due to different test harnesses.

21:43:02 [janina_]

q?

21:44:00 [jasonjgw]

Michael emphasizes the value of automated testing of rendering engines to reduce manual testing.

21:44:16 [jasonjgw]

He notes that markup may be added to the spec to identify normative requirements.

21:44:52 [hober]

jasonjgw: i'm interested in helping with testing

21:45:24 [jasonjgw]

Janina calls for volunteers.

21:45:49 [jasonjgw]

zakim, next item

21:45:49 [Zakim]

agendum 7. "Requirement gathering for User Contexts: next steps http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2013Jun/0022.html" taken up [from janina_]

21:46:00 [hober]

Scribe: hober

21:46:14 [hober]

jasonjgw: not much to say since last meeting

21:46:29 [hober]

jasonjgw: coordinating with michael to get the reqs doc up on the wiki

21:46:50 [hober]

... open to additional use cases

21:47:02 [janina_]

q?

21:47:13 [hober]

... would like contributions of reqs and use cases from implementors and folks from other wgs

21:47:27 [hober]

... we should add use cases for each section of the doc

21:47:43 [hober]

... we can then look to see if we need more granular cases

21:47:54 [hober]

... we're not yet at the stage of removing requirements

21:48:22 [hober]

... holding back on deleting reqs for now

21:49:13 [hober]

MichaelC: got jasonjgw's use cases into the wiki just before the call

21:49:23 [MichaelC]

-> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/User_Context/Requirements Jason´s proposal for User Context Requiremnets

21:50:42 [hober]

[MichaelC and jasonjgw double check that jason's content got on there correctly]

21:51:08 [hober]

janina_: we want to look at the iso documents mentioned earlier to see if that adds anything here

21:51:27 [hober]

janina_: secondly, is there a good cheat sheet for people to work with the wiki in emacs

21:51:57 [hober]

hober: i should be able to help with that (wiki editing in emacs)

21:52:23 [hober]

Scribe: jasonjgw

21:52:46 [jasonjgw]

zakim, next item

21:52:46 [Zakim]

agendum 8. "User Contexts: identifying AT" taken up [from See Below]

21:53:44 [jasonjgw]

Janina asks whether anyone wants to add comments regarding this issue or raise questions.

21:54:45 [janina_]

q?

21:55:13 [jasonjgw]

James is concerned about the perception that people may be locked out of access if they don't identify their AT. He explains a parallel with location sharing, which doesn't prevent a Web site from working if sharing is not permitted by the user.

21:56:27 [richardschwerdtfeger]

q+

21:56:30 [jasonjgw]

He explains that there are valid use cases for AT-specific preferences in rare but significant cases.

21:56:56 [hober]

jasonjgw: i didn't quite catch the use case

21:57:33 [hober]

jasonjgw: i think the concern was the way in which less scrupulous implementors could not enable a11y features if the user doesn't declare their AT requirements

21:57:59 [hober]

jasonjgw: not about access being blocked, but the question was to how vulnerable is this tech to misuse

21:58:33 [janina_]

q?

21:58:38 [janina_]

ack r

21:59:40 [jasonjgw]

Rich clarifies that there are cases in which implementations turn off accessibility features entirely for performance reasons: they won't support those features unless they know that an assistive technology of a specific type is running.

22:00:22 [jasonjgw]

He cites several examples. In at least one instance, the user has to active accessibility explicitly through a menu option.

22:01:04 [Zakim]

-[Apple]

22:01:13 [jasonjgw]

The concern is that some Web applications will not include accessibility support unless AT is declared (if such a declaration is made possible by IndieUI Events).

22:01:19 [jcraig]

For example, one use case was a Zoom user visiting a website which displayed a alert outside the viewable window of the zoomed AT. If the user exposes certain aspects of their AT, the app can adapt and display the alert within the available view.

22:01:43 [jcraig]

q+ to respond to Rich's point about Google Docs performance

22:01:47 [jasonjgw]

Rich argues that we should obtain wider input regarding these issues.

22:02:01 [jcraig]

ack me

22:02:01 [Zakim]

James_Craig, you wanted to respond to Rich's point about Google Docs performance

22:02:02 [jasonjgw]

Janina notes thtat we are over the hour and that this conversation will continue.

22:03:15 [jasonjgw]

James notes that a Web application can provide a means in the user interface to turn on accessibility in such cases.

22:05:22 [jasonjgw]

Rich clarifies that Web applications could by default not expose Aria features unless the user agent declares a need for them, via AT preferences.

22:06:00 [jasonjgw]

James clarifies his point that, for example, a prominent control in the Web application's UI can then offer to enable Aria and other accessibility features.

22:06:23 [jasonjgw]

Janina closes the meeting at this point.

22:06:25 [Zakim]

-James_Craig

22:06:26 [Zakim]

-Rich_Schwerdtfeger

22:06:28 [Zakim]

-janina_

22:06:29 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

22:06:32 [Zakim]

-Rich_Simpson

22:06:32 [jasonjgw]

rrsagent, list participants

22:06:32 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'list participants', jasonjgw. Try /msg RRSAgent help

22:06:53 [jcraig]

jcraig has left #indie-ui

22:06:56 [jasonjgw]

zakim, list participants

22:06:56 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been janina_, +1.412.901.aaaa, James_Craig, hober, Michael_Cooper, Jason_White, Rich_Simpson, Rich, Rich_Schwerdtfeger

22:07:04 [jasonjgw]

rrsagent, make minutes

22:07:04 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/26-indie-ui-minutes.html jasonjgw

22:07:35 [Zakim]

-Jason_White

22:07:36 [Zakim]

WAI_Indie()5:00PM has ended

22:07:36 [Zakim]

Attendees were janina_, +1.412.901.aaaa, James_Craig, hober, Michael_Cooper, Jason_White, Rich_Simpson, Rich, Rich_Schwerdtfeger