20:00:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-techs-tf
20:00:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/30-html-techs-tf-irc
20:00:47 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
20:00:54 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
20:01:00 <jamesn> rrsagent, make log world
20:01:09 <jamesn> zakim, this is WAI_WCAG
20:01:09 <Zakim> jamesn, this was already WAI_WCAG()4:00PM
20:01:10 <Zakim> ok, jamesn; that matches WAI_WCAG()4:00PM
20:01:25 <jamesn> Meeting: HTML5 and ARIA Techniques TF
20:01:32 <jamesn> chair: James_Nurthen
20:01:54 <jamesn> agenda+ Survey - More ARIA techniques for 02 May 2013. *Question Number 2 ONLY* - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20130502tfaria2/
20:02:09 <jamesn> agenda+ Updates on other techniques. Is there anything else ready for survey - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Techniques/ARIA
20:02:13 <jamesn> agenda?
20:02:35 <Zakim> + +49.403.17.aaaa
20:02:42 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #html-techs-tf
20:02:51 <Zakim> +Cooper
20:03:11 <Zakim> +[Google]
20:03:41 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Detlev_Fischer
20:03:41 <Zakim> +Detlev_Fischer; got it
20:03:45 <jamesn> agenda- 1
20:03:50 <jamesn> agenda?
20:04:03 <Zakim> +Paul_Adam
20:04:53 <pauljadam> pauljadam has joined #html-techs-tf
20:05:00 <Detlev> scribe: Detlev
20:05:27 <jamesn> zakim, next item
20:05:27 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Survey - More ARIA techniques for 02 May 2013. *Question Number 2 ONLY* - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20130502tfaria2/" taken up [from jamesn]
20:05:53 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20130502tfaria2/
20:07:12 <jongunderson> jongunderson has joined #html-techs-tf
20:07:15 <Detlev> Technique put together originally by Josh
20:07:17 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #html-techs-tf
20:07:25 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
20:07:31 <Detlev> Hasn't been touched since April
20:07:58 <Detlev> James: Suggests to make soe changes now
20:09:19 <Detlev> James: roe alert has an implicit aria-live of 'assertive' on it
20:09:28 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson
20:09:47 <adam_solomon> adam_solomon has joined #html-techs-tf
20:09:57 <Detlev> James (editing on the fly)
20:10:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:10:09 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea
20:10:33 <MichaelC> zakim, IPcaller is Adam_Solomon
20:10:33 <Zakim> +Adam_Solomon; got it
20:10:50 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20130502tfaria2/
20:11:28 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20130502tfaria2/results#xrange
20:11:30 <Detlev> James: asking for suggestions for phrasing (second technique in survey)
20:11:53 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #html-techs-tf
20:13:10 <Detlev> Adam / Detlev: Unclear what "(on an allowed HTML element used in HTML forms) " refers to
20:13:39 <Detlev> Michael: refers to elements where that role is allowed
20:14:51 <Detlev> James: couldn"t we generally refer to a document (tech note) allowed aria roles properties in HTML rather than out it in particular techniques?
20:15:23 <Detlev> Loretta: concerned that it my not materialize
20:15:45 <Detlev> James: does that qualification add any value?
20:16:52 <Detlev> Michael: on some ARIA techniques it may be important to point out that range of ARIA roles/attributes that can be used is limited
20:18:02 <Detlev> James (dropping parentheses form description and similar refernce in test procedure)
20:18:35 <Detlev> James: clarify the implicit aria-assertive?
20:19:23 <Zakim> -Cooper
20:20:07 <Detlev> (Editing ongoing)
20:20:29 <jamesn> This technique uses the ARIA role attribute with the value of “alert” in order to provide a suggestion to the user for correction on form input errors. Aria roles of alert have an implicit aria-live value of assertive which informs assistive technologies to monitor an applicable node and convey changes.
20:21:00 <Zakim> +Cooper
20:23:12 <Detlev> James (adding reference to SC 3.3.1 Error Identification:
20:24:24 <Detlev> Paul: would like a simpler example that doesn't require JavaScript
20:25:07 <Detlev> JAmes / Loretta: agree - question whehter Paul would pick up that technique
20:25:16 <Detlev> Paul: agrees
20:25:57 <Detlev> Paul: talking about a different technique (aria-live)
20:26:45 <Detlev> Paul: pointing out different rendering with JAWS in iE8
20:26:55 <Detlev> James: not really an issue
20:27:51 <Detlev> Paul: Using role alert plus aria-assertive may improve browser coverage
20:27:54 <pauljadam> http://pauljadam.com/demos/aria-alert-validation.html
20:28:14 <Zakim> +Robin_Tuttle
20:28:42 <robin> robin has joined #html-techs-tf
20:28:50 <Detlev> Paul: mentioning James Craig's response to Paul's technique
20:29:43 <Detlev> Paul: user agent notes can cover UA and AT support
20:30:08 <Detlev> James: examples will need to be hosted somewhere - Michael, jQuery OK?
20:30:21 <Detlev> Michael: yes, in principle(?)
20:31:19 <Detlev> Paul: different ways, also inline validation
20:31:55 <Detlev> James: Asks Paul to take up technique and put in link to Paul's example - changing source as well
20:32:51 <Detlev> Paul: use examples for both techniques?
20:33:04 <Detlev> James: people were against merging the techniues
20:33:20 <Detlev> Lorentta: same example may be applicable for different techniques
20:34:19 <Detlev> James: Title of techniques were changed last week - may be the two techniques SHOULD be combined
20:34:49 <Detlev> Paul: A technique may show the different live regions types, polite, assertive etc..
20:35:35 <Detlev> James: A technique may take specific use cases for live regions
20:36:34 <Detlev> Paul: His aim was to take the use case of error msgs and how to use either aria liver regions or role alert
20:37:12 <Detlev> James: Paul, want to combine them?
20:37:16 <Detlev> Paul: sure
20:37:29 <Detlev> James: can be undone if problems appear
20:38:34 <Detlev> James (editing)
20:39:27 <Detlev> James: Recommends Paul should take a look at Jason's detailed comments
20:39:51 <Detlev> Pau: Shall we look at test procedure for role =alert?
20:40:21 <jamesn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_ARIA_Live_Regions_or_role%3Dalert_to_Identify_Errors
20:40:45 <Detlev> Loretta: Test seems to rely on particular AT behavior
20:41:23 <Detlev> Paul: whether live region is automaticlly read depends on AT in use
20:42:06 <Detlev> Loretta: Test procedure should tell evaluator whether the technique has been correctly implemented
20:42:27 <Detlev> Paul: like " container has the right role, error message is inserted"
20:42:41 <Detlev> James (doing the test procedure on the fly)
20:43:34 <jamesn> jamesn has left #html-techs-tf
20:43:41 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #html-techs-tf
20:44:07 <jamesn> # Check that there is an ARIA role attribute with value of “alert” or a live region with aria-live="assertive"
20:44:07 <jamesn> # Trigger the error
20:44:07 <jamesn> # Check that the error is inserted into the container with role="alert" or the live region with aria-live="assertive"
20:44:36 <Detlev> Paul: Should AT list browser version and SR make/version?
20:44:40 <Detlev> Yes
20:45:08 <Detlev> Paul: First step may not be needed could be insterted into the DOM
20:46:06 <Detlev> Adam: Language for test procedure may not be appropriate, things like  "Make sure" ..
20:46:35 <Detlev> James: You have to declare role of container then insert it in the DOM
20:47:14 <jamesn> <span>error</span>
20:47:16 <Detlev> Adam: Why does it have to be inserted? Can it not be more generic?
20:47:59 <Detlev> James: The order in which you insert stuff is important affects end result
20:48:35 <Detlev> Loretta: Test procedures can describe necessary conditions for JavaScript
20:49:23 <Detlev> Adam: It could be a display:none nd then be shown at the occassion of the error occuring
20:50:16 <Detlev> Paul: in his example the contsiner is already there and then text is inserted
20:50:44 <Detlev> James: You can"t make changes of roles after pageload
20:50:59 <Detlev> Loretta: Some of this discussion should go into the description!
20:51:15 <Detlev> Paul: expalins that he can put that into the technique
20:51:36 <Detlev> Loretta: Good to have a variety of examples that show the subtleties as well
20:51:57 <pauljadam> http://blog.paciellogroup.com/2012/06/html5-accessibility-chops-aria-rolealert-browser-support/
20:53:00 <Detlev> Paul: referring to the differences in support of the different methods 1-4 in Steve's page
20:53:22 <Detlev> Are we done soon?(...)
20:54:08 <Detlev> Paul: WIll take what has been discussed and compile that into one technique
20:54:25 <Detlev> Paul: OK to share techniques on Twitter
20:54:51 <Zakim> -Adam_Solomon
20:55:04 <Detlev> James: Yes it"S all public, no concerns - clearly it's all in development, but that's fine
20:55:27 <Detlev> Loretta: It would also be great to get input from people
20:56:43 <Detlev> James: Three Failures from Detlev can go into survey for next week
20:57:11 <Detlev> Loretta: referring to third question on the survey (changed title)
20:57:21 <Detlev> James: Unclear what was concluded
20:57:46 <Detlev> Adam: Concludion was to explore whether aria-hidden could also be used
20:57:59 <Detlev> Sorry, not Adam that was Paul
20:58:42 <Detlev> James: Need investigation whether aria-hidden also work
20:58:57 <Detlev> Paul Will HTML5 hidden attriburte work as well?
20:59:15 <Detlev> James: Looking just at ARIA at the moment
20:59:44 <Detlev> Loretta: OK to look at HTML5 as well
21:00:30 <Detlev> James: takes up putting together some test cases for aria-hidden
21:00:35 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
21:01:03 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos-Shea
21:01:37 <Detlev> James: Agenda will go out on Tuesday - three or four things is plenty
21:01:37 <Zakim> -Paul_Adam
21:01:41 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
21:01:43 <Zakim> -Cooper
21:01:48 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
21:01:52 <Zakim> -Detlev_Fischer
21:01:53 <Zakim> -[Google]
21:01:56 <Zakim> -Robin_Tuttle
21:01:57 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
21:01:57 <Zakim> Attendees were James_Nurthen, +49.403.17.aaaa, Cooper, [Google], Detlev_Fischer, Paul_Adam, Marc_Johlic, Jon_Gunderson, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Adam_Solomon, Robin_Tuttle
21:02:09 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
21:02:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/30-html-techs-tf-minutes.html jamesn