14:44:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:44:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/29-forms-irc
14:44:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:44:02 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
14:44:04 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
14:44:04 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
14:44:05 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
14:44:05 <trackbot> Date: 29 May 2013
14:44:35 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013May/0023
14:44:43 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013May/0023
14:44:49 <Steven> Regrets: Philip
14:44:53 <Steven> Chair: Steven
14:51:20 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
14:55:44 <alain> alain has joined #forms
15:00:48 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
15:00:56 <Zakim> +??P26
15:00:58 <Steven> zakim, I am ?
15:00:58 <Zakim> +Steven; got it
15:01:12 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
15:01:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:02:12 <Steven> zakim, [ is alain
15:02:12 <Zakim> +alain; got it
15:02:26 <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
15:02:26 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
15:02:37 <Zakim> +ebruchez
15:03:24 <Zakim> +??P39
15:03:32 <nvdbleek> zakim, I am ??P39
15:03:32 <Zakim> +nvdbleek; got it
15:04:29 <nvdbleek> scribe: nvdbleek
15:04:36 <Steven> Topic: ACTION-1949 - Add note about use of var with other scripting
15:04:36 <Steven> languages
15:04:36 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013May/0020.html
15:05:34 <nvdbleek> Steven: Looks alright for me
15:05:45 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: Looks fine for me too
15:06:01 <nvdbleek> Steven: alain did you have a chance to look at it?
15:06:51 <nvdbleek> alain: It's ok for me
15:07:02 <nvdbleek> Steven: Erik thank you very much
15:07:10 <Steven> close action-1949
15:07:10 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-1949 Add note about use of var with other scripting languages..
15:07:13 <nvdbleek> Topic: ACTION-1947 - Import the XPath 3.0 serialize() function to XForms 2.0
15:07:14 <nvdbleek> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013May/0021.html
15:07:16 <Steven> Topic: ACTION-1947 - Import the XPath 3.0 serialize() function to XForms
15:07:16 <Steven> 2.0
15:07:16 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013May/0021.html
15:07:56 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: For this one I had a few more questions
15:08:38 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: The way things are structured, Xpath 3.0 defines the function, the serialisation and the parameters are defined in XSLT and XQuery Serialization 3.0
15:08:43 <unl> unl has joined #forms
15:09:19 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: The serialisation spec allows you to extend the basic functionality, by default you can specify the method and some other parameters
15:09:40 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: I think the parameters aren't mandatory to implement
15:09:54 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: you can specify your own in your own namespace
15:10:23 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: I added a JSON serialisation, relevant pruning and validation
15:10:34 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: they are all in our namespace
15:10:59 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: nvdbleek already commented on some of my questions
15:11:47 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: historically yes and no are used, but we use true and false, what should we use, maybe support both
15:12:27 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: The next question is what about failure, e.g. json serialisation may fail if you are serialising arbitrary XML
15:12:43 <Zakim> +unl
15:13:00 <nvdbleek> Steven: Certain things get ignored, I don't remember if JSON serialisation can fail
15:13:20 <nvdbleek> alain: If it doesn't fail, you could miss data
15:13:38 <ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/index.php?title=XPath_Expressions_Module&diff=3800&oldid=3750#The_serialize.28.29_Function
15:13:54 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: there is another error case, when you enable validate and the serialised item isn't valid
15:14:24 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: On error we could return either an empty string or we could throw a dynamic error
15:14:47 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: I think we should throw an error
15:15:11 <nvdbleek> alain: There is already an event
15:16:17 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: I don't like function sending events, because then you need to be able to send an event in the middle of evaluating an XPath expression, which could be handled. It works for submission because it is triggered in an action
15:16:35 <nvdbleek> alain: How can you catch a dynamic error in XPath?
15:17:00 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: XQuery has a try/catch mechanism but XPath doesn't has it
15:17:06 <ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery-30/#id-try-catch
15:18:34 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: There are already other XPath functions that throw dynamic exception, we might add exception handling in a future version of the spec
15:19:24 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: When you do text serialisation you won't know the difference between serialising an empty element or an exception
15:19:38 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: I think throwing an error is the right way to go
15:19:49 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: +1 for throwing a dynamic error
15:20:56 <nvdbleek> alain: I would like to have media type as a serialisation parameter, are they all boolean
15:21:18 <nvdbleek> alain: why not use media type to configure the serialisation method
15:22:11 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: Because we decided to go for the xpath 3.0 serialise function. They have a serialisation method text, html, xml
15:22:22 <nvdbleek> alain: They are not media types
15:22:39 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: They are indeed not media types, they are just values
15:22:57 <ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt-xquery-serialization-30/#serparam
15:23:16 <nvdbleek> method:	An expanded QName with a null namespace URI, and the local part of the name equal to one of xml, xhtml, html or text, or having a non-null namespace URI. If the namespace URI is non-null, the parameter specifies an implementation-defined output method.
15:23:42 <nvdbleek> Steven: It does a mediatype
15:23:55 <nvdbleek> … parameter as well
15:24:08 <nvdbleek> media-type: A string of Unicode characters specifying the media type (MIME content type) [RFC2046]; the charset parameter of the media type MUST NOT be specified explicitly in the value of the media-type parameter. If the destination of the serialized output is annotated with a media type, this parameter MAY be used to provide such an annotation. For example, it MAY be used to set the media type in an HTTP header.
15:24:38 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: In our case we couldn't use media-type because it doesn't influence the method parameter
15:25:17 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: the supported parameters depend on the method parameter
15:25:53 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: The spec doesn't say implement everything in the document, there are a lot of may's in the spec
15:26:09 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: It is very flexible
15:28:02 <nvdbleek> Steven: alain doesn't like that this isn't fully in sync with the xforms submission because xforms uses media-type to drive the serialisation method
15:29:01 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: I think we should go for extending the value space of method by adding xforms:json and xfroms:csv
15:30:25 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: I also think we should go for the xpath 3.0 function, I don't like the xpath 3.0 way of specifying the serialisation parameters, but we don't have to do all the specification work
15:30:40 <nvdbleek> Steven: Are you OK with it
15:30:50 <nvdbleek> alain: If we add CSV I'm OK with it
15:31:41 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: Most standard boolean serialization parameters are "yes" and "no".
15:31:42 <nvdbleek> Should we use that too, or "true" and "false"? Or accept both?
15:32:13 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: that is for xforms:relevance and xforms:validate
15:32:25 <nvdbleek> alain: I would like to go with yes and no
15:32:32 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: That's fine for me
15:32:55 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: Is it unexpected to users that, by default, non-relevant nodes are pruned? This is consistent with xforms:submission
15:34:22 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: I think we should go for pruning by default
15:34:28 <Steven> agree
15:34:52 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: I'm not sure about the xforms:validate parameter
15:35:53 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: We have a valid() function, if you want to ensure that serialisation only happens when data is valid, you can use the valid() function
15:37:19 <Zakim> -alain
15:37:33 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: If we keep the xforms:validate parameter we have to specify what should happen when validation is on and you have invalid nodes
15:37:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:39:07 <ebruchez> if (valid(foo)) then serialize(foo) else ''
15:39:19 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: you don't want to run the validation process while evaluating XPath expressions, consequently the data shouldn't be re-validated while running the serialize function
15:39:40 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: I'm in havoc of dropping the xforms:validate parameter
15:39:49 <nvdbleek> alain: +1 for removing  xforms:validate parameter
15:40:31 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: How do we link to other specifications
15:42:01 <Steven> s/havoc/favor/
15:42:07 <Steven> +1
15:42:22 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: We add those to the references and and link to the reference from within the spec, We also point to dated versions of other specifications
15:42:48 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: nvdbleek comment "Shouldn't the default value for xforms:relevant be true (currently specified value is false)"
15:44:02 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: We agreed to prune by default
15:44:35 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: Let me double check the submission spec to make sure if it is specified correctly
15:45:53 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: OK, you are correct, the default value should be true
15:46:30 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: Others comments are no longer relevant because we dropped the xforms:validate parameter
15:46:46 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: I can update the text accordingly
15:47:31 <nvdbleek> Topic: ACTION-1943: Erik investigate why XPath 3 chose the function
15:47:31 <nvdbleek> signature they did for serialization
15:47:32 <nvdbleek> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013May/0003.html
15:47:59 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: We covered this
15:48:08 <Steven> close action-1943
15:48:08 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-1943 Investigate why XPath 3 chose the function signature they did for serialization.
15:50:43 <Zakim> -ebruchez
15:50:45 <Zakim> -Steven
15:50:45 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:50:46 <Zakim> -unl
15:50:52 <Zakim> -nvdbleek
15:50:53 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
15:50:53 <Zakim> Attendees were Steven, [IPcaller], alain, ebruchez, nvdbleek, unl
15:50:54 <Steven> Oh, hi Uli!
15:51:07 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:51:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/29-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:52:04 <alain> alain has left #forms
16:38:44 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
17:21:34 <Zakim> Zakim has left #forms