IRC log of indie-ui on 2013-05-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:53:54 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #indie-ui
20:53:54 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/15-indie-ui-irc
20:53:56 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:53:56 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #indie-ui
20:53:58 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be INDIE
20:53:58 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_Indie()5:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
20:53:59 [trackbot]
Meeting: Independent User Interface Task Force Teleconference
20:53:59 [trackbot]
Date: 15 May 2013
20:54:03 [janina]
Meeting: IndieUI Task Force Teleconference
20:54:03 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
20:54:03 [janina]
agenda+ TPAC2013 https://www.w3.org/2013/11/TPAC/
20:54:03 [janina]
agenda+ Editor's Update
20:54:03 [janina]
agenda+ Default Activation Event [See Below]
20:54:06 [janina]
agenda+ user context properties [See Below]
20:54:08 [janina]
agenda+ User Context Issues & Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/products/3
20:54:11 [janina]
agenda+ Events Issues & Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/products/2
20:54:14 [janina]
agenda+ Privacy and Security: The cases for exposing AT
20:54:17 [janina]
agenda+ Renaming POR: Open Discussion
20:54:19 [janina]
agenda+ Scribe for our Next Teleconference (on 30 May at 21:00Z)
20:54:22 [janina]
agenda+ Be Done
20:57:11 [Zakim]
WAI_Indie()5:00PM has now started
20:57:18 [Zakim]
+??P0
20:57:58 [andy]
andy has joined #indie-ui
20:58:33 [Zakim]
+??P1
20:58:38 [janina]
zakim, ??P1 is me
20:58:38 [Zakim]
+janina; got it
20:59:24 [janina]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:59:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P0, janina
20:59:27 [jasonjgw]
jasonjgw has joined #indie-ui
21:00:03 [janina]
zakim, ??P0 is Andy_Heath
21:00:03 [Zakim]
+Andy_Heath; got it
21:00:18 [jcraig]
jcraig has joined #indie-ui
21:00:37 [Zakim]
+??P2
21:00:53 [Zakim]
+[Apple]
21:01:01 [jcraig]
Zakim, Apple has jcraigh
21:01:01 [Zakim]
+jcraigh; got it
21:01:02 [rich_]
rich_ has joined #indie-ui
21:01:13 [jcraig]
Zakim, jcraigh is jcraig
21:01:13 [Zakim]
sorry, jcraig, I do not recognize a party named 'jcraigh'
21:01:38 [jcraig]
Zakim, Apple has jcraig
21:01:38 [Zakim]
+jcraig; got it
21:01:46 [MichaelC]
zakim, call cooper-mobile
21:01:46 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
21:01:48 [Zakim]
+Cooper
21:01:55 [MichaelC]
zakim, jcraigh has left Apple
21:01:55 [Zakim]
MichaelC, I was not aware that jcraigh was in Apple
21:01:55 [jcraig]
Zakim, who is on the call
21:01:57 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the call', jcraig
21:02:00 [Zakim]
+ +1.412.901.aaaa
21:02:05 [jcraig]
Zakim, who's here?
21:02:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Andy_Heath, janina, ??P2 (muted), [Apple], Cooper, +1.412.901.aaaa
21:02:07 [Zakim]
[Apple] has jcraig
21:02:07 [Zakim]
On IRC I see rich_, jcraig, jasonjgw, andy, Zakim, RRSAgent, smaug, Lachy, janina, MichaelC, hober, trackbot
21:02:30 [MichaelC]
zakim, aaaa is Rich_Simpson
21:02:31 [Zakim]
+Rich_Simpson; got it
21:02:48 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P2 is Jason_White
21:02:48 [Zakim]
+Jason_White; got it
21:03:20 [richardschwerdtfeger]
richardschwerdtfeger has joined #indie-ui
21:04:46 [janina]
zakim, take up item 1
21:04:46 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "TPAC2013 https://www.w3.org/2013/11/TPAC/" taken up [from janina]
21:05:42 [jcraig]
scribe: jcraig
21:05:59 [jcraig]
JS: Nov 11-15 in Shenzhen China
21:06:11 [jcraig]
IndieUI F2F will be that week
21:06:14 [jasonjgw]
We'll try to have our meeting at TPAC for two days, 11-15 November.
21:06:22 [janina]
zakim, next item
21:06:22 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Editor's Update" taken up [from janina]
21:06:33 [jcraig]
scribe: jasonjgw
21:07:04 [Zakim]
+[Apple.a]
21:07:07 [richardschwerdtfeger]
what is the conference code/
21:07:08 [richardschwerdtfeger]
?
21:07:09 [hober]
Zakim, Apple.a has me
21:07:09 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
21:07:15 [MichaelC]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2013May/0019.html
21:07:19 [jcraig]
Particularly the directional and linear focus requests.
21:07:19 [jasonjgw]
The main question is that distributed to the list regarding edits to events spec.
21:07:30 [richardschwerdtfeger]
it says 46343 is not valid!
21:07:34 [richardschwerdtfeger]
that is the second time today
21:07:56 [jcraig]
For how they are two events: directionalfocusrequest and linearfocusrequest that each will have a detectable focusType attribute in the Event object matching, for example, LINEAR_PREVIOUS, LINEAR_NEXT, DIR_EAST, DIR_SOUTHWEST, etc.
21:07:58 [janina]
Hmmm, Rich, it seems to be an issue accepting DTMF, perhaps?
21:08:11 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
21:08:51 [jcraig]
The other variation would be to have each be a separate named event. For example, focuspreviousrequest, focusnextrequest, focuseastrequest, focussouthwestrequest, etc. I thought adding twelve events would be more confusing than adding two with parameters.
21:08:53 [jasonjgw]
James notes the distinction between direction focus events (next, previous, first, last) reserved for maps or similar objects. For now we have DirectionalFocusRequest and LinearFocusRequest with a focus type.
21:09:21 [jasonjgw]
The linear focus events are all individually named events.
21:09:27 [jcraig]
Does this rest of the group agree with my assumption? If not, why?
21:09:38 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q+
21:09:39 [jasonjgw]
Does the working group support this scheme?
21:09:54 [janina]
ack r
21:10:32 [MichaelC]
q+ to say I think fewer events with parameters easier, and also easier to add parameters later if circumstances come up
21:10:47 [jasonjgw]
Rich suggests adopting the same vocabulary that is under consideration for SVG Tiny 1.2.
21:10:47 [andy]
q+
21:10:48 [janina]
ack m
21:10:49 [Zakim]
MichaelC, you wanted to say I think fewer events with parameters easier, and also easier to add parameters later if circumstances come up
21:10:52 [jcraig]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/
21:11:15 [janina]
ack a
21:11:27 [jasonjgw]
Michael thinks MMMMichael and Andy think there is more flexibility in having events as parameters.
21:12:18 [richardschwerdtfeger]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/interact.html#navigation
21:12:47 [jcraig]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/single-page.html#interact-navigation
21:13:39 [jasonjgw]
James observes that it's similar to a CSS proposal, which has similar problems to tabindex.
21:14:39 [jcraig]
SVG uses syntax nav-next="url(#Chan2Prog1)"
21:15:01 [jasonjgw]
The CSS proposal was deleted from their spec recently, James notes.
21:15:56 [janina]
q?
21:16:12 [jasonjgw]
The issue raised by Rich, to clarify, is alignment of vocabulary.
21:16:46 [jasonjgw]
No further editor's updates.
21:16:59 [jasonjgw]
zakim, next item
21:16:59 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Default Activation Event" taken up [from See Below]
21:17:05 [jcraig]
Nothing more from me except I have to read this section of the SVG spec now . ;-)
21:19:26 [jasonjgw]
This agenda item is postponed for now.
21:19:33 [jasonjgw]
zakim, next item
21:19:33 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "user context properties" taken up [from See Below]
21:19:46 [jcraig]
Action-50?
21:19:46 [trackbot]
ACTION-50 -- James Craig to prepare a list of user context properties that might be able to be covered by media queries -- due 2013-04-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
21:19:46 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/actions/50
21:20:36 [jcraig]
CSS Conditionals
21:20:41 [jcraig]
CSS Media Features
21:20:52 [jasonjgw]
James: media queries seems a good opportunity to bring aspects of User Contexts into a well known and accepted format, namely CSS. CSS conditionals and media features are the relevant specs.
21:21:30 [jasonjgw]
IndieUI and PF may wish to propose additional media queries.
21:22:02 [jasonjgw]
Example: high contrast proposal.
21:22:22 [jcraig]
Microsoft proposal for high contrast:
21:22:22 [jcraig]
-ms-high-contrast: active | black-on-white | white-on-black | none;
21:22:45 [jcraig]
My proposal variant:
21:22:46 [jcraig]
display-colors-inverted: inverted | off;
21:22:46 [jcraig]
display-contrast: <percentage>;
21:23:11 [jcraig]
display-increase-contrast: 100%; may be equivalent to -ms-high-contrast: active;
21:23:12 [jcraig]
display-increase-contrast: 0%; may be equivalent to -ms-high-contrast: none;
21:23:41 [jasonjgw]
As a variant, James proposed two properties: colours inverted and a contrast percentage value.
21:23:59 [jcraig]
@media (display-colors-inverted: inverted) { img, video { filter: invert(100%); } }
21:25:42 [jasonjgw]
Discussion of contrast settings on different operating systems.
21:26:11 [jcraig]
base-color
21:26:12 [jcraig]
base-background-color
21:26:13 [jcraig]
base-font-size
21:26:15 [jcraig]
base-letter-spacing
21:26:16 [jcraig]
base-line-height
21:26:18 [jcraig]
base-word-spacing
21:26:19 [jcraig]
display-colors-inverted
21:26:20 [jcraig]
display-contrast-increased
21:26:21 [jcraig]
minimum-font-size
21:26:42 [jasonjgw]
James suggests, in answer to a question, that a joint IndieUI/PF position would be the best way to establish a proposal to extend the media queries supported in CSS.
21:28:17 [jasonjgw]
James further clarifies that when relevant changes occur, so do the results of the media queries and hence the style applied to the document.
21:29:08 [jasonjgw]
James suggests preparing a draft for CSS wg to review.
21:31:15 [jasonjgw]
DiscussionTTTThe group notes a need to obtain input regarding different operating systems (Android, Linux and others).
21:31:33 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
21:32:18 [jcraig]
RS: Check with Google platforms and Linux to make sure this list covers other platforms besides Windows, Mac, and iOS.
21:32:28 [jcraig]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/actions/50
21:36:56 [jasonjgw]
zakim, take up item 3
21:36:56 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Default Activation Event" taken up [from See Below via janina]
21:39:09 [jcraig]
q+ to ask if equivalent of "click" is sent in default framework controls
21:39:20 [jasonjgw]
Eitan notes that some Firefox OS applications do not listen for click events, but only for low-level touch events. The system listens for touch events, not click.
21:40:19 [jcraig]
Zakim, who is noisy?
21:40:33 [Zakim]
jcraig, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
21:40:48 [jasonjgw]
He supports James' proposal that click still be used, but when an object is not activated this way, an IndieUI focus event should be available and used.
21:41:42 [jcraig]
ack me
21:41:42 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to ask if equivalent of "click" is sent in default framework controls
21:41:52 [Zakim]
-janina
21:43:06 [jasonjgw]
James suggests that if a higher-level UI framework is being proposed, click could still be used as a default activation event (simulated rather than driven by mouse hardware in the touch screen case).
21:45:10 [jasonjgw]
Eitan notes that there isn't a common framework at this stage. There are difficulties in determining when a click event has to be simulated.
21:45:44 [jasonjgw]
James agrees there is no definition of what constitutes a "click", i.e., on what circumstances the event is to be simulated/dispatched. This needs to be defined per operating system.
21:46:47 [jasonjgw]
James notes that the DOM wg considers click an abstract activation event; it is named "click" purely for historical reasons.
21:48:18 [jasonjgw]
James proposes a secondary activation event request to be used in limited circumstances, with a strong note that the (abstract) click event defined in DOM should be used where possible.
21:49:09 [jcraig]
q+ to ask how a <button> works on Firefox OS if 'click' is not implemented?
21:49:19 [jcraig]
q- jas
21:49:24 [jcraig]
ack me
21:49:24 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to ask how a <button> works on Firefox OS if 'click' is not implemented?
21:49:53 [jasonjgw]
Eitan suggests there is a need to distinguish clicks caused by pointing devices from those which are simulated, caused for example by underlying touch events.
21:50:59 [Zakim]
-Rich_Simpson
21:51:33 [jcraig]
ACTION-53?
21:51:33 [trackbot]
ACTION-53 -- James Craig to add ~"activate request" event to augment default action trigger when "click" handlers are inappropriate. -- due 2013-05-10 -- OPEN
21:51:33 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/actions/53
21:51:51 [jasonjgw]
He clarifies that applications listening for click and touch events will in some cases receive the input twice, e.g., on a button.
21:51:57 [jcraig]
Eitan confirms action 53 should suffice for the Firefox OS needs
21:52:17 [jasonjgw]
There is general agreement on James' proposal for IndieUI.
21:55:30 [jcraig]
MC: Next call on May 23rd
21:55:43 [jcraig]
s/23/29/
21:55:54 [jcraig]
RS: I'm out that day.
21:55:57 [Zakim]
-Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:55:59 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
21:56:01 [Zakim]
-[Apple.a]
21:56:16 [Zakim]
-Andy_Heath
21:56:24 [Zakim]
-[Apple]
21:56:25 [Zakim]
-Cooper
21:56:29 [jcraig]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:56:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/15-indie-ui-minutes.html jcraig
21:56:29 [Zakim]
-Jason_White
21:56:30 [Zakim]
WAI_Indie()5:00PM has ended
21:56:30 [Zakim]
Attendees were janina, Andy_Heath, jcraigh, jcraig, Cooper, +1.412.901.aaaa, Rich_Simpson, Jason_White, [Apple], hober, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, [IPcaller]
21:56:48 [jcraig]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:56:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/15-indie-ui-minutes.html jcraig
21:58:04 [eeejay]
eeejay has joined #indie-ui
22:00:01 [jcraig]
s/James proposes a secondary activation event request/Eitan proposes a secondary activation event request/
22:00:45 [jcraig]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:00:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/15-indie-ui-minutes.html jcraig
22:01:31 [jcraig]
rrsagent, please part
22:01:31 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items